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pilotho
8th Jun 2006, 23:21
despite me thinking this test is a complete waste of time and only there for revenue, i have to do it.

so guys, what and how would i be tested? could i ever revise for this??

rodan
9th Jun 2006, 00:33
It's only a waste of time because it's nowhere near comprehensive enough, but that's another story.

what and how would i be tested? could i ever revise for this??
CAP 413 is probably a good starting point on both questions...

BEagle
9th Jun 2006, 06:20
Look at the Safety Information Leaflet in the back of LASORS!

Judging by the very poor quality of many pilots' RT work a few years ago, re-introducing the practical RTF test was definitely a good idea!

coodem
9th Jun 2006, 06:22
Link to the CAP 413 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF
It is 1.3Mb

Dark Helmet
9th Jun 2006, 07:35
It is definitely a good idea. You will be able to learn the correct patter and be able to practice and practice until it becomes second nature.
I recommend that you grasp the opportunity and make the most of it. It will ease your workload later and give you more confidence.

unfazed
9th Jun 2006, 07:44
OK So how many of the respondants actually conduct the RT exam ?

Out of those how many have a seperate off-shore account for that retirement villa ?:)

Whopity
9th Jun 2006, 19:29
despite me thinking this test is a complete waste of time and only there for revenue, i have to do it.

Then if you are so good at it that you regard it as a waste of time, why do you need to ask others what its all about?

If you are that competent it will only take 15 minutes and you will pass with flying colours however, the lack of knowledge you display in your post regarding the content and format leads me to think that you actually have quite a lot of work to do.

Just think, that work may just make you a little bit safer.

With regard to revenue, who makes any revenue out of it and how? Compare any costs incurred with those your AME makes for seeing if you are still warm!

Whirlybird
9th Jun 2006, 20:23
despite me thinking this test is a complete waste of time and only there for revenue, i have to do it.


Just WHY do you think it's a waste of time?

pilotho
9th Jun 2006, 20:26
i do know how to conduct RT and know all of the aspects of it, its just the fact that i didnt know what they would ask me.

just like in A level exams, u could know all about the subject but have no idea what they would ask!

regards to why i think its a waste of time, is that i been using RT all the way through my training and indeed within the skills test. therefore i think that would have shown i am proficient with RT. Paying extra money on top of the skills test is where the waste of money comes from

Whirlybird
9th Jun 2006, 21:42
If you know all about it, why does it matter what they are likely to ask you?

Spitoon
9th Jun 2006, 21:44
Trust me on this. When there was no RT test because it was assumed - as you seem to think - that you learned how to handle RT during your training standards fell. And in case you are not aware, it often takes a lot to make the CAA act and in this instance they brought back the RT test.

As rodan says, the current test doesn't really test the skills that you need so maybe you should treat it like your driving test - passing that one gives you a licence to go out on your own and learn to drive in the real world.

You may think that it's all a waste of time and unnecessary expense but you have to do it - so get on and do it rather than complaining! Do I sound grouchy? Perhaps it's because I've spent too many years having to listen to poor RT (and I don't mean non-standard RT, I mean really poor RT from people who don't seem to have the first idea what communication is about!).

niknak
9th Jun 2006, 22:29
For once I agree with BEAgle!!!:eek:

I doubt the trend will last.....:p

pilotho
9th Jun 2006, 22:40
to be honest, i think the RT element should be incorporated into the skills test. afterall its on the ground school element.

then the RT test can be elimnated and therefore cut the cost of already expensive UK GA

Whirlygig
9th Jun 2006, 23:03
Not really. The RT skills test will involve a variety of procedures including possibly a PAN PAN, an emergency, a MATZ crossing for example.

There are elements of the RT test that for me, as a helicopter, are a bit unreal but it was no big deal. If you think you're good enough, what's the worry?

As niknak can vouch, there's non-standard RT and poor RT! :ok: :O

Cheers

Whirls

pilotho
9th Jun 2006, 23:27
i been meaning to ask this, since a helicopter pilot has no free hands, how would he write down certain things?

in an unplanned diversion, how would you write down headings etc

Whirlygig
9th Jun 2006, 23:30
We don't! We have to memorise it! Most air traffickers, if they know I am a helicopter will give us one piece of information at a time but, in an emergency, it's our memory!!

At the start of a flight (on the ground) I will write down the ATIS, after that, the next thing I write down is landing time when I have landed!

Cheers

Whirls

pilotho
9th Jun 2006, 23:39
i've thought that flying choppers would be difficult but would still like to try...

so say you got lost, would you just hover? then dont u need to have a lookout behind? tho some choppers dont have rear windows nor rear view mirrors surprisingly....

also, what if engine fails, these things dont glide what happens??

sorry for taking this thread off course, but i cant be bothered making another thread! =P

Whirlygig
9th Jun 2006, 23:47
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=227983

This thread discusses that issue quite well! However, there is no harm in starting another thread.

If I get lost, I can slow down and look out the window and map the land features to the chart! IFR - I Fly Roads, rivers and railways! A typical altitude for a light helicopter would be 2,000 feet and an airspeed of 70 knots!

Most small helicopters do have a reasonable amount of rear visibilty and a lot of peripheral visibilty. However, I cannot compare as I have never flown fixed wing.

Cheers

Whirls

IO540
10th Jun 2006, 06:21
The standard of RT on the VFR scene is indeed appalling but I don't think RT training is much to do with it.

The problem is that most people fly so rarely. If one flies 10 hours a year one will forget the RT but one will also forget what half the knobs and levers in the plane do...

Poor RT also comes from high workload - this much is often obvious when listening to the stuff on the air. Again, low currency. Perhaps also poor training but not poor RT training.

We could have the same debate on any other aspect of PPL flight, including instrument training. It hardly matters what you were taught 5 years ago. It is your currency on the type that determines just about everything.

Whirlybird
10th Jun 2006, 07:03
I started off, like my esteemed friend Whirlygig, by not writing anything down. You gradually develop a better memory. If there's too much information, you repeat back what you remember, and ask them to say again the bit you forgot. But I rarely write anything down these days, even when I'm flying f/w aircraft.

However, a very high hours pilot pointed out to me that someday I might get a long clearance and I'd have to write it down! How? Become ambidextrous on the cyclic, he said. As a helicopter pilot, this is what you need to do; don't mess about. Well, as an instructor I had to do that anyway, so now if necessary I switch the cyclic to my left hand and write things down.

This is not really a digression. As a pilot, you're ALWAYS learning. Just because you got a PPL and can fly from A to B and manage on the radio, don't think that's enough...it's nothing; it merely means you know enough to do some of the learning on your own. And the little bit of RT you had to do for the Skills Test? Think of all the things you didn't have to do, like a Mayday call, and - depending where you fly from - possibly not flying through a MATZ or controlled airspace or any of the myriad of things you are now officially QUALIFIED to do. I did my PPL before they had an RT test. There was loads of stuff I thought I knew, but had never practised. Sure, I sounded OK on the radio. But there's more to it than that, and way, way, way more to flying than what you know now....or what I know for that matter.

Oh, and if you ever want a demo of what helicopters do in the event of engine failure, come and fly with me and I'll show you!

Whirlygig, learn to use that stick with your left hand! ;)

Whirlygig
10th Jun 2006, 07:09
Whirlygig, learn to use that stick with your left hand!

Ah-ha! But flying a left hand PIC Schweizer, one does that to change frequencies, altimeter, DI etc!!! :ok: However, it's not pretty flying! Perhaps I'll find it easier to learn to right with my left hand!

Cheers

Whirls

Whopity
10th Jun 2006, 08:29
to be honest, i think the RT element should be incorporated into the skills test. afterall its on the ground school element.

It is incorporated into the JAA Skills Test but that is for the Pilot Licence. The FRTOL is an entirely seperate licence that requires knowledge that you would not nescessarily display in a Skill Test. For 10 years (1989-99) the Skill Test was used as a medium for the practical RT test. In that time two very different standards emerged; those who knew the correct phraseology and those who didn't.

Most people learn their RT from coppying others, unfortunately it is more common to copy the wrong things rather than the right ones, especially if you don't fly very often.

If your RT is good then right down a full Mayday call in the correct order. Now if you get that right, assume that you have just received one, nobody else heard it! Do you know what to do and how to issue an imposition of silence? It could be your shout, it doesn't have to be the ground station.

pilotho
10th Jun 2006, 11:32
ok i might sound a lil over confident but i can make a mayday call and to be honest, when it comes to it, who does say a full mayday call in the correct order?

i think there was a disscussion here about a sound file of a guy on VFR who flew into cloud and started spinning. first of all how he flew into a massive cloud beats me...secondly i thought u only spin if the aircraft stalls while being out of balance. point is, i dont think anyone makes a full mayday call in the correct order when in emergency.


Oh, and if you ever want a demo of what helicopters do in the event of engine failure, come and fly with me and I'll show you!
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and whirlybird, i will hold you to that flight in your chopper, i have yet to fly in a helicopter and an engine failure in my maiden flight sounds good.....

Whirlybird
10th Jun 2006, 20:25
No problem. I instruct at Sheffield and Tatenhill, and neither are a million miles from Manchester. I spend quite a lot of my time demonstrating auto-rotations during trial lessons to doubting f/w pilots. :(

ShyTorque
10th Jun 2006, 21:07
Just be wary of swapping hands on the controls in a helicopter....in the cruise it's just like a fixed wing but in the hover.....it can get suddenly become very "interesting" and expensive :confused: :eek: :ugh:

I can elaborate...... ;)

Whopity
10th Jun 2006, 22:16
when it comes to it, who does say a full mayday call in the correct order?

The correct order can be the difference between being picked up tonight or tomorrow morning; I know of one such case where it cost the pilot his life! Your choice.

Spitoon
10th Jun 2006, 23:08
ok i might sound a lil over confident Yup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

homeguard
11th Jun 2006, 00:39
For most students the full experience of RT procedures cannot be fully covered in the air without considerable expense. However the RT test is not particularly stretching with regard to RT chatter for the candidate should know all of that and will have passed the written exam and will have demonstrated that part of their knowledge during training.
To inform pilotho better.
The RT test is this; Assume you are a basic PPL without any additional ratings flying a simple GA single engined aeroplane. The Examiner acts as each controller to whom you speak. You will be given a schematic map of a flight which will start or end at a controlled aerodrome and will route through a MATZ and also a control zone of a particular class - obtain the correct clearance. You will be given a completed pilots navigation log. The test is NOT concerned with your navigation skills! Throughout the flight YOU will decide to WHOM you speak, WHEN and for WHAT REASON by choosing the appropiate service. You will be given a sheet of comms/nav stations with the frequencies and a brief description. You WILL experience a 'DISTRESS' or need to relay such, however prior to the test you will not know which. You will also experience an 'URGENCY' situation. In both cases you will need to cancel each appropiately in order that the flight may be completed. You will also be required to obtain an enroute VDF bearing; QDM/QTE/QDR as you choose. A planned diversion (within the pilots log) also takes place.
It will be assumed that your radio phraseology is of standard. YOU can only prove otherwise! The test is primarily assessing your knowledge of the ATC system and how best to use it. You will be given sufficient time to plan following a briefing. It is the RT preflight planning which in my experience is the weakest element of most candidates. This leads to requesting from the wrong ATC unit an inappropiate service having selected the wrong frequency from a published list. CAP 413 is the guiding document. The schools that send to me their students regularly know the format well and prepare their students. Where this hasn't happened many students struggle with the R/T planning. Be sure that you are prepared well before the day and then it is all very straight forward.
Expect to be with the Examiner at least three hours. The preflight briefing and your planning will take at least one hour. The Test takes anything between thirty minutes and one hour depending on the candidate. The candidate may if they so wish use the full duration of the flight plan time which is something like 1 hour and 45 minutes. Afterward there will be a post flight debrief and paperwork. You must take with you proof of having passed the written exam. A partly completed license application form showing the successful pass is normal.
Hope this has helped.

IO540
11th Jun 2006, 06:42
I recall 2 things from mine:

I encountered a life raft floating in the water below, and had to make a MAYDAY call on its behalf.

The duration of the "virtual flight" is far less than that of the actual flight, and it's hard to get into one's head that one is expected to contact the next unit after 30 seconds rather than after 30 minutes as would be the case if flying the real distances. I confused the instructor because I was simulating long pauses to account for the next 20 mile leg :O

They tape it and keep the tape for a year; it is retrieved if you kill yourself (etc) and RT issues are suspected. Not sure what the value of this would be, since IMHO one's RT is only as good as one's currency.

Whopity
11th Jun 2006, 06:52
The tapes are only kept for a failed test, in case there is a dispute over the conduct of the test!

Whirlygig
11th Jun 2006, 07:05
I encountered a life raft floating in the water below, and had to make a MAYDAY call on its behalf.

Hey, I got that one too!

The planning time is vital - you can write down what you want (as you would on a kneeboard) such as the order of a MAYDAY.

However much time they give you for planning ( and as I recall it wasn't long enough - didn't seem like an hour and 45!), use that time - rememeber the 5 Ps - Perfect Planning Prevent Pathetic Performance.

Cheers

Whirls

Whirlybird
11th Jun 2006, 07:10
Just be wary of swapping hands on the controls in a helicopter....in the cruise it's just like a fixed wing but in the hover.....it can get suddenly become very "interesting" and expensive
I can elaborate

I agree! I found that out too. But Shytorque, please DO elaborate. ;)

Malcolm G O Payne
11th Jun 2006, 09:21
Actually, the dinghy situation is a PAN call rather than a MAYDAY. The examiner has to keep written papers for three years in case the CAA wishes to check them. This isn't very often. I have been examining for more than twenty years and not had a request-yet.

homeguard
11th Jun 2006, 10:02
It is not for the RT Examiner to decide the pace of the test. If the candidate wishes to use real time then they may without explanation. I explain this to all candidates during the pre-brief so they do not feel under pressure to move on without being ready.
Recording the test is an option of the Examiner. It is not mandatory and I rarely do it. When i have recorded all or part of a test it is to be a helpful tool during a post-flight brief rather than evidence of failure. If a candidate arrives with shortcomings and leaves without them i am satisfied. All this is in accordance withe the CAA brief to Examiners.
Any incident that appears to need assistance requires a 'PAN' call.

FullyFlapped
11th Jun 2006, 10:05
regards to why i think its a waste of time, is that i been using RT all the way through my training and indeed within the skills test. therefore i think that would have shown i am proficient with RT.

When I did my PPL, I'm pretty sure that I had to complete the RT test before they'd let me go off and do my solo QXC - is this not a requirement any more ?

FF :ok:

drauk
11th Jun 2006, 10:41
3 hours? At Cabair I had a 10 minute briefing, 10 minutes of planning time (more was available; I was told I could write down a script for the entire thing, though I chose not to), and about 20 minutes for the test. After reading the 3 hours comment I expected to see others chime in with how this seemed a long time, so perhaps mine was the unusual one.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with the suggestion that good RT has anything to do with currency. Much of the bad RT I've heard seems to spring from bad habbits, repeated so often that they don't imagine it could be wrong. 1 hour every 2 years with an instructor isn't enough to retrain it out of a frequent flyer's memory and there seems to be no other mechanism for correcting someone.

homeguard
11th Jun 2006, 12:33
Yes of course if the candidate is very much on the ball then it can be completed very quickly. I suspect Drauk that your either a very talented and exceptional learner or perhaps you already had considerable experience before taking your RT test.
10 minutes of planning and the test completed in 20 minutes is hardly a pace that an average student yet to graduate will achieve. Whatever it is not for the Examiner to push the pace. The purpose of the event is an attempt to eradicate the poor RT of which you speak. Like any test it is best when the candidate leaves also having learned from the experience. With any written exam that they will undertake they will only have had to demonstrate 75% of the knowledge questioned. A practical test will also require a degree of error by the student and may reveal a weakness in knowledge which must be assessed and should then be debriefed. The Examiner must then decide whether it is a simple matter and resolved by debriefing or whether further training or study is required. 10 + 20 and out the door is hardly providing the candidate with the service that they should expect and for which they pay.
An oft used quideline for planning a trip is that the student will take twice as long as the flight duration being planned will be. Quite typical in my experience. It will not be unreasonable for an RT candidate to take 40-60 minutes to plan the RT test. I also recommend that they plan a script for the RT situation is unusual being sat in a room using a box of tricks. It is very easy to become lost in time.

Gingerbread Man
11th Jun 2006, 13:18
[yo]u could know all about the subject but have no idea what they would ask!


That's generally the point of an exam. If they told you what they were going to ask you it would be called handwriting practice.

Ginger ;)

High Wing Drifter
11th Jun 2006, 13:55
could i ever revise for this??
Are you talking about the practical? If so then yes, just imagine the flight from hell where your engine starts to misbehave, you see another aircraft or boat or something in distress. You suspect your radio is on the blink. You get lost and need direction finding. All in additon to the standard departure, enroute and arrival protocol and services.
If you are talking about the written, then yes. The trick is that Roger does not mean you understood the message as one answer I came across suggested; in other words the CAP413 related answers have to be verbatim.
After reading the 3 hours comment I expected to see others chime in with how this seemed a long time, so perhaps mine was the unusual one.
The actual practical test was definately in the minutes, maybe 10-20. The whole thing including briefing, getting a cuppa and wot not was probably about an hour. Can't recall the details, it was a totally forgetable experience.

englishal
11th Jun 2006, 17:05
Actually, the dinghy situation is a PAN call rather than a MAYDAY.
Actually, isn't it a MAYDAY RELAY ;)

Anyway, I think it is a waste of time. I think the examiner on the flight test should be able to assess all aspects of your flying skills, including RT, and make a judgement as to whether you are competent to fly and communicate. If not, then maybe some remedial training in an RT simulator and seperate RT test should be required. RT is one of those things you can't learn in 45 hours and be expected to be British Airways correct each time. You learn by doing.......

Keygrip
11th Jun 2006, 17:35
Actually, isn't it a MAYDAY RELAY

No it's not - how the **** can it be?

Anyway, I think it is a waste of time.

Enough said. Fortunately - your opinion doesn't count, or we'd have numerous people relaying Maydays that they haven't heard.

cessna l plate
11th Jun 2006, 18:55
Quite right Keygrip, the opinion doesn't count. What does count is the arrogance of the inital post. I find it quite alarming that a mandatory piece of the ppl learning process is dismissed as an excuse to make money. Perhaps you feel the same about zone entrance clearances, or landing clearances perhaps??

In this game a little humility goes a long way, without it you become complacent, and that becomes the first link of the accident chain!! Don't fall into the same trap as most drivers. "I've passed the test, so I must be good" It means that at a given time on a given day you reached a MINIMUM standard. Look at it as a licence to learn!!

Just for a bit of thread creep, how does one become an RT instructor/examiner??

IO540
11th Jun 2006, 21:44
We could debate this RT stuff; probably there can be no hard positions on it.

However, I do think that currency affects it. I hear some dreadful RT every time I fly, and all of it sounds like pilots who either rarely fly, or are deaf. For example, if somebody says "over" at the end (shortwave-style amateur radio stuff) how much normal RT have they listened to? It's really basic and obvious.

There is also ATC to listen to. British ATC is normally very proper and very professional - so different from VFR services elsewhere. (IFR ATC is pretty good in most places). So a pilot who flies reasonably regularly must be wondering about whether some phrases are right.

I know little about the microlight scene but otherwise I think really bad RT tends to belong to pilots who are only just hanging in there. Training won't help them much.

Regards a Mayday relay, I recall this is another valid option: a man in a life raft could make a Mayday on 121.50 using a handheld radio, and an airliner could relay this as a Mayday relay call. I carry a radio and a handheld GPS for exactly this reason.

Andy_RR
12th Jun 2006, 05:05
I was rubbish at my RT practical exam.
My RT on my skills test was nearly as rubbish.
I learned that RT is one of the big things I really must work on, so I guess I learned something! :}

IO540
12th Jun 2006, 07:33
Women can fly and talk :O but for most men RT is hard work.

I often wondered if there was a better way to teach RT. The way it is done currently (mix it with flying training) makes one learn flying a lot slower than if no RT was needed. It really ups the workload.

In general I think one learns little in the air, especially procedural stuff like RT and instrument flight stuff. Training should be done on the ground, consolidation takes place in the air. So there should be a real RT ground school. I doubt the industry wants this however, since there is no clear charging basis for ground school (which is why most schools don't do any ground school). And the industry is what the CAA listens to.

englishal
12th Jun 2006, 08:16
No it's not - how the **** can it be?
What's your problem?

If you see a life raft, I am assuming it is not there for no reason (being part of an RT practical test), and therefore someone else is in trouble, and therefore you are relaying a Mayday.....you yourself are not in trouble are you???? You yourself are not experiencing an urgency are you?


Fortunately - your opinion doesn't count, or we'd have numerous people relaying Maydays that they haven't heard.

So what would you do JAR boy? Declare a Mayday, Pan or just ignore the liferaft. I don't believe you have heard a Mayday either.....:rolleyes: Luckily your opinion doesn't count......The coastguard and anyone who matters will know what you mean, even if a JAA examiner doesn't.

homeguard
12th Jun 2006, 09:49
You can only be relaying a Mayday if another station has transmitted one.
If you spot a liferaft or small boat in the water you cannot be sure if the craft requires IMMEDIATE assistance or not. Clearly, should you be concerned then the matter needs investigating urgently. An URGENCY requires a PAN! Take a scenario where you ASSUME a distress and helicopters and boats are launched to rescue. It turns out not to be the case for the Dinghy was being used for fishing. Meanwhile another genuine distress is transmitted. The Helicopter is not now able to attend immediately until it has refueled and the rescue boat is now going in the opposite direction. We now have a mess. Make the appropiate call and allow the professionals to deal with what THEY are trained to do. They do it bloody well!
As i have already explained the RT test encompasses much more than the student will normally have experienced during training. Such as the correct use of the wider system where it is sometimes found not to be understood.

PPRuNe Radar
12th Jun 2006, 09:53
MAYDAY RELAY is an acceptable term for use by sea craft, but has not found its way in to aviation RT phraseology.

In UK airspace, CAP 413 offers the following advice:



1.9
Relayed Emergency Message


Any aeronautical station or aircraft knowing of an emergency incident may transmit a distress message whenever such action is necessary to obtain assistance for the aircraft or vessel in distress. In such circumstances, it should be made clear that the aircraft transmitting is not itself in distress.


Example:
Aircraft G-ABCD


MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY

Milthorpe Tower G-ABCD have intercepted MAYDAY from G-BJRD
I say again G-BJRD Cessna 172 engine failure forced landing 10
miles west of Wicken VOR, 1000 feet descending, heading 120, IMC
rating, over

Milthorpe Tower


G-ABCD Milthorpe Tower Roger your relayed MAYDAY from G-BJRD






You can only be relaying a Mayday if another station has transmitted one.


But that's not what CAP 413 says. Read it again. above.

For a sighted liferaft, you could use a MAYDAY call quite legitimately, provided you made it clear you were under no emergency on board your own aircraft. Alternatively, you might assess it as only worthy of a PAN, but that's your call. The emergency services would be more appreciative of a call and it being a false alarm rather than finding out later someone was in trouble and you thought they were only using a liferaft for fishing !!

IO540
12th Jun 2006, 10:32
Make the appropiate call and allow the professionals to deal with what THEY are trained to do. They do it bloody well!

That might be the case in the UK and a short distance from the shore. Not the case further afield, where somebody might be quite grateful for being fished out of the water at all.

And in most of the world, there is no S&R at all. You have to hope you can raise somebody, with an EPIRB going off or by calling up an airliner 35000ft above you.

Milthorpe Tower G-ABCD have intercepted MAYDAY from G-BJRD
I say again G-BJRD Cessna 172 engine failure forced landing 10
miles west of Wicken VOR, 1000 feet descending, heading 120, IMC
rating, over

Curious why "over" if this is on VHF.

I think somebody doing fishing out of an orange liferaft needs their head examined.

But fair enough, if you can get through to somebody with a "PAN" then why not.

The most useful thing, actually, would be knowing which button on the GPS to press to set a user waypoint.

englishal
12th Jun 2006, 11:13
MAYDAY RELAY is an acceptable term for use by sea craft, but has not found its way in to aviation RT phraseology.

It may not be 100% CAP413 as per PRadars post which I accept, but in my opinion it is better as it instanly alerts those listening that you yourself are not in peril, but someone else could be (satisfying the last sentence of 1.9). It is also internationally recognized and used.......in aviation and military.

Fuji Abound
12th Jun 2006, 11:18
"Take a scenario where you ASSUME a distress and helicopters and boats are launched to rescue. It turns out not to be the case for the Dinghy was being used for fishing. Meanwhile another genuine distress is transmitted. The Helicopter is not now able to attend immediately until it has refueled and the rescue boat is now going in the opposite direction. We now have a mess. Make the appropiate call and allow the professionals to deal with what THEY are trained to do. They do it bloody well!"

I dont understand your point. Are you suggesting there is some magic (which I am not aware of) in a Mayday over a Pan?

In the scenario you are indicating it is indeed up to the emegency services to prioritise the calls. They will want as much information from you as possible in order to make that call.

Whilst correct RT is clearly very improtant so is common sense. You have seen a liferaft in the water or a dinghy. What do you know about what you have seen - if anything? This is the information really needed by the emergency services. They also need to know precisely where it is. Can you give them a GPS position accurately?

As to RT generally, whilst as I have said correct RT is important, it is also very easy to forget the whole purpose of the excercise - to exchange information ACCURATELY and QUICKLY. In my experience the greatest weakness in most PPLs RT is that they dont think about EXACTLY what they want to say first.

PPRuNe Radar
12th Jun 2006, 19:36
Ref: MAYDAY RELAY

It is also internationally recognized and used.......in aviation and military.

As it is not in ICAO RT procedures or phraseology, I wouldn't bank on it being fully understood in the civil aviation arena worldwide. Native English speakers may put 2 and 2 together to get the '4' that you intend, but sticking to standard phraseology removes any guesswork and doubt, as well as making things clear for other listeners.

Keygrip
12th Jun 2006, 20:40
I have two pet stories when discussing RT with students (and pilots).

On numerous occassions I hear an aircraft, that has previously reported being at 4,000 feet, saying "Descending Two Thousand Five Hundred Feet".

I would not think it unreasonable for a native English speaker to assume that this aircraft was going to level off at an altitude of two thousand five hundred feet - a decsent of, in this scenario, 1,500 feet.

But what they actually said was "Descending Two Thousand Five Hundred Feet". So I would be equally unsurprised if somebody understood that this aircraft was descending 2,500 and would level off at an altitude of 1,500'.

The other, with tragic loss of an airframe and four crew, was the 747 approaching Kuala Lumpur - which was instructed by ATC "Descend Two Four Zero Zero Feet" (in the days when we used to digitise numbers). The crew read back "Descend to four zero zero". Their 747 hit the ground at 600amsl (thinking they still had 200 feet to go), 12 miles from the beacon they were tracking inbound towards - the MSA was 2,400 feet amsl. Apart from the RT fault, who operates a 747 at 400 amsl 12 miles from an IAF?

Heard a guy near Orlando, spending absolutely ages on a noisy RT frequency with Miami, saying over and over again that his destination was "QTS - you know, Queen Tommy Sam".