Buried treasure at Kenley Airfield? [Archive]

Brewster Buffalo

3rd Jun 2006, 20:03

ROYAL Air Force engineers are set to dig up Kenley Airfield as part of a secret mission to uncover its wartime past.
The project has been kept under wraps because bosses fear a swathe of metal detector-wielding plane enthusiasts will move in before them.
Archaeologists from the Ministry of Defence Fire Training School, in Manston, Kent, will help excavate a patch of the historic site believed to be an old aircraft dump.
Starting on August 7, it is hoped the dig will solve the 50-year-old mystery of what lies beneath the former RAF base.
Bomb disposal teams have carried out a subterranean survey of the World War Two site in preparation for the excavation.

It is thought that legendary aeroplanes such as Spitfires and Hawker Hurricanes, the two fighters that won the Battle of Britain, are buried there.
It is also rumoured that an old Avro Lincoln bomber - a high-altitude four-engined plane not used in the war - was left at the site.....
.......Chris Baguley,chairman of the Friends of Kenley Airfield, said: "Who knows what's in there. They're going to be digging up old scrap buried a long time ago.
"It could be bits of an old tip or it could be something tangible. Maybe even an important piece of military history.
"The RAF wants to dispel all the myths about what is down there by finding out about the planes.What happened then we don't know and it will be very interesting to find out."
.....
Squadron leader Keith Chandler, of the 615 Volunteer Gliding Squadron, said: "In the 1950s the RAF used a number of out-of-service fighter planes there, including Spitfires and Hurricanes, for fire training.
"In the early 80s one of them surfaced and was taken away but the rest have been buried there for years. I think the RAF wants to keep it quiet, though, because the last thing they want is a legion of people with metal detectors digging up the land before they get there."

Wing Commander David Lainchbury, the commandant at the fire training school, said ......."The site survey revealed three or four large, unusual shapes which may be aircraft fuselage. Earth-moving equipment will be used initially in the excavation, while air training corps members will then be involved in the hand-dig. "It would then be up to the Corporation of London, which owns the land, to determine what to do with any interesting findings."

http://iccroydon.icnetwork.co.uk/news/croydon

Why on earth would you want a bury an aircraft the size of a Lincoln :confused:

jabberwok

4th Jun 2006, 02:33

It begs the question as to how many other aircraft may exist in dumps around the UK. Not all airframes were reduced to scrap for reprocessing - many just dragged off to a remote area and left to rot. Some may still survive underground.

Mark22

4th Jun 2006, 08:35

RE242 at Kenley in 1958.

The two Spitfires, that were adjacent, were recovered independently many years ago. One, PK665, circa mid 1960's and one, TB885, in 1982.

Mark22

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/Album%203/LincolnKenley-02-001.jpg

chevvron

4th Jun 2006, 11:49

Reminds me of a tale I was told many years ago by a friend.
He'd just joined the RAF in about 1959, and his first posting was to North Coates, which had been on 'care and maintenance' for many years, and was to be re-opened as a Bloodhound (SAM) base.
A Warrant Officer (or God to young 'erks) took them to investigate a locked Robin type hangar. On cutting off the padlock, it was found to be packed full of Beaufighter spares kits. But they weren't on the inventory (and the last Beaufighter had left the UK) so the said W/O didn't want to know about them, and instructed the erks to dig a hole on the airfield and bury them!
They may still be there; who knows!

Atcham Tower

4th Jun 2006, 20:25

What about the buried B-17 at Deenethorpe which the local farmer told me about in 1973? A hangar queen, apparently.

Frelon

5th Jun 2006, 19:21

My old Austin A35 is buried on the dump at Kenley. Please let it rest in peace!

Frelon.

FJJP

5th Jun 2006, 22:55

Then there are tales of underground hangars in Germany full of Luftwaffe ac left over from WW2...

possel

6th Jun 2006, 11:53

When I was at St Mawgan in the early 80s there was a similar rumour of some Lancasters (plural but not sure how many) buried on the north side towards St Mawgan village. No idea if it's true or what state they're in now if they are there...

brokenlink

6th Jun 2006, 21:01

Nice to hear that the Lincoln may resurface at long last. I remember that one of the landing runs was nicknamed after it.
Wonder if there is any chance that Kenley may become an active airfield again one day?

treadigraph

7th Jun 2006, 06:54

What, doesn't the gliding at Kenley count Brokenlink? ;)

The ATC and Surrey Hill Gliding club are both very active there, plus there was a little airshow there last year though, predictibly given the drought conditions, it rained!

Frelon

7th Jun 2006, 11:35

I have many a fond memory of pulling out the old single drum (ex barrage balloon) winches and being asked to site them on the "Lincoln run" - the opposite end was "Reverse Lincoln" for obvious reasons. Despite being known as the Lincoln run there was no Lincoln in sight then (1960). Now the sight of those old V8 engines going at full chat was a sight for saw eyes (or ears).:ok:

Frelon

7th Jun 2006, 11:37

...or even "sore" eyes.......must get a new 'putor thingy what does spell chekking!

chevvron

7th Jun 2006, 14:36

FJJP - you've been reading too much Clive Cussler

JDK

7th Jun 2006, 15:08

Hmmm.

I just happen to have a map, with, remarkably, all these sites on. Just send me all your money, and the map's yours. 'Buried Treasure', at Kenley or elsewhere is the aviation preservation's version of the nice man from Africa who just needs to use your bank account for a while...

I can actually think of only one aircraft recovered from underground to fly - the ex-Col Pay P-40 which was used as a dam landfill in Canada. There are surely more recovered - anyone? Aviation Archaeology, while a valid pursuit in itself mainly results in lumps of twisted metal. Eligible would be an aircraft that is now preserved, complete, and recognisable for what it was. (Sand, jungle, water and ice have all yielded 'complete' aircraft - don't tell us about those.)

But the stories of secret caches out number recoveries the usual 100 - 1.

Cheers

Brewster Buffalo

7th Jun 2006, 17:30

mmm..can't be much left after 50 years. Perhaps it is a scheme to keep air cadets busy :)

".....while air training corps members will then be involved in the hand-dig."

good grief their predecessors might have even buried them :eek:

brokenlink

7th Jun 2006, 19:21

Treadigraph, apologies for a poorly phrased question. What I was seeking was views on whether it would be possible to ever have powered aircraft based on the airfield, notwithstanding the lack of hangarage (apart from the gliders) when I last visited the site some 10 years ago.

Regards,

BL

POBJOY

8th Jun 2006, 01:14

no aircraft were scrapped at kenley in my time (1960---1976),but countless cars and steel cabinets met thier end under the bulldozer on the dump.i remember the spit remains being dragged out,and if you could get there before the dozer all sorts of goodies were scattered around.i reclaimed a 3inch rocket tube and solid warhead,and had to wait till after dark to get it home across the common.the spit seat was to bulky,and had to be rehidden behind a blast bay for later recovery.it was not uncommon to find complete aircraft harnesses lying around (i had a shed full of them for years),and one set went on my turb.in one of the wartime buildings near the small arms range (a canadian wing flight hut) a complete rolls kestrel or merlin engine was on a stand,however the building was bulldozed one week and that was that.it is sad to see the fate of the old camp,but at least the airfield lives on.i had my first ever flight from there in 1960,the whole site should have been preserved as the definative bob station

POBJOY

8th Jun 2006, 01:23

by the way frelon is it true that the old v8 winches used to shed thier fans in to the rads on a regular basis.in my time we had the twin drum (wild) winches.they gave no trouble,but if the fuel was not turned off after the days operations the oil sump used to fill up with petrol.we had scores of interesting incidents over the years.might post some of them if anyone is interested.

Frelon

8th Jun 2006, 06:48

Pobjoy

Yes the fan blades used to detach (perhaps not as many as we thought). Quite spectacular! And of course you will know how many miles of well used glider launching cable and old cable knots were put on the dump on a regular basis after the daily inspection of the cables.:) I will be surprised if they find anything interesting after all these years - especially with you (and others from 615) already having carried out a multitude of searches.

Frelon

treadigraph

8th Jun 2006, 07:51

Pobjoy, yes please!

Brokenlink, I thought that was what you meant, but just in case anybody else thought the airfield was abandoned!

I doubt it could ever be resurrected as a powered aerodrome - I have seen the odd Cub and Cherokee land there in the past (not sure if they were precautionaries?) and SHGC operated a Falke a year or two back for a while. The site is (mostly?) owned by the Coroporation of London and maintained as public common land outside of the peri-track which I imagine would preclude use for powered aircraft on a regular basis. We had another thread on this forum several years ago...

Nimrod615

8th Jun 2006, 08:46

I wonder if they'll find any evidence to suggest how far back grouse beating goes??? :E

POBJOY

8th Jun 2006, 23:35

ok treadders how about this for a start.
it is a bank hol mon in the early sixties.all winching has stopped due to a massed flypast of aircraft from the tiger club at redhill on thier way to an airshow at north weald (a regular happening).the reason for the lack of winching is due to the staff cadets ignoring all light signals,and standing on the winch cabs watching them go past.just as normal service was about to commence i notice a turbulent aircraft coming back very low,and making for the grass.i told the winch driver not to launch,and took off in the 4x4 austin truck to investigate.the visitor had managed to land alongside the peri track near the pill box, and was examining the vw engine.I'm sorry about this he said but the engines lost power so i had to come in.i helped move the machine on to the peri track,and being keen on vw engines started to remove the cowling.
the scene was then spoilt by the arrival of several cars from the launch point complete with assorted instructors and vrt officers.
our visitor was then subjected to a lecture on his unauthorised arrival,and then asked by one of the vrt types for his name and details.
his explanation regarding his forced landing was ignored and as in all good (carry on type farces) a paper and pen was produced to take particulars of this event.
name !! (are you sure all this is required our friend protested)
name !! 'you tiger club types are always flying too close to the airfield'
name !! our vrt type is now behaving like a traffic warden.
oh very well,i am wing commander xxxxxxxx,a hunter pilot from xxxxx currently at mod.
the silence was followed by a combined coming to attention of all the officers, hotly pursued by a most impressive display of saluting!!
needless to say i had no trouble in getting the use of a landrover to tow the turb back to our hangar,and then depositing our friend at the main gate to await transport back to redhill.
yet another victory in the never ending staff cadets v authority battle.
i think i stopped laughing about a week later.

treadigraph

9th Jun 2006, 06:51

Thanks Pobjoy! It's good to start the day with a giggle!

Cheers

Treadders

Frelon

9th Jun 2006, 09:35

Then there was the another time at 615 Gliding School (no pretentious Squadrons in those days) when we were happily launching our high performance training gliders into the air (Kirby Cadet Mk IIIs) when a lonely Tri Pacer appeared in the circuit. Despite lots of red lights at him from the ground he carried out his perfect approach onto our long runway. After touchdown he was approached from many directions by the yellow Landrovers and their irate drivers wanting to know why he had landed without permission at an active gliding site which had clear (in those days) crosses on the end of each runway. The cockpit door opened and a voice came from the French registered aircraft “Eez zees Biggin ‘ill?” :ugh: After much taking down of registration numbers/pilot’s details and telephone calls to Customs it was decided to send him on his way. "Biggin 'ill is just two 'ill 'ops in that direction" our CO offered in 'is perfect London French! The pilot then declared zat, “ze batterie eez plat!” So the CO, an engineer, decided that he would swing the propeller to get him going. After several swings the engine had not started. At that point a voice from the wingtip (our CFI) said, “George, I think you are swinging it the wrong way!”:D
George had been used to swinging the older (non American) engines! Long may he rest.

POBJOY

9th Jun 2006, 20:13

i think we should all have a get together at our former home from home.
you are right about george the best co 615 ever had.on poor weather days we would pester him "tell us a story george".the tales were always very funny,and frequently featured the woolwich arsenal where he worked as a tech civil servant.he would get us constructing all sorts of equipment using scrap material from work.everything had to be bolted together,so we spent hours using a monsterous drill on the dural strips and made up our own glider retrieve trailers long before any one else had them.george was a convert to the volkswagen beetles,and soon there were 5 or 6 of them being used by the staff.one of our favourite tales related to his being involved in the removal of a tree stump for the home guard.a quantity of explosive was borrowed from work and packed under and around the said stump.this was then doubled up to make sure,and everyone retired to a safe distance.the resulting eruption very nearly put the first tree stump in to lunar orbit,but then that was george, if your going to do a job make sure it works!! where would we meet, boydon end cafe,gone. roundabout cafe,gone.naffi,gone!!! perhaps 450 would lend us thier hq.

Lou Scannon

13th Jun 2006, 19:42

Mark22

15th Jun 2006, 09:45

I was talking to an old friend last night about this "buried aircraft" nonsense and he told me that as a kid he used to play on a Lanc that had crashed at Kenley. He believes that it was buried along with a spit.
If anyone wants to contact him PM me.

Nonsense?

Here are the two Spitfires taken at the same time as the Lincoln (well nearly a Lancaster).

Although giving the appearance of having crashed, all these aircraft were on firefighting demonstration and, I suspect, crash rescue duties.

PeterA

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/16-TB885-01-002.jpg

Nimrod615

15th Jun 2006, 10:11

Chased off for good reason though. It amazes me how people are so naive to the fact that it is an operational gliding site and feel that they are quite safe wandering across the airfield. :ugh:

If the cable doesn't slice you in half the 16 year old dealing with a launch failure will always point at pedestrians!!!

Cricket23

15th Jun 2006, 20:23

After 9/11 there was a rumour doing the rounds that Kenley was briefly considered for Harriers. Don't know how serious this was or indeed if it was just wishful thinking.

Anyone know?

C23

Dai Rear

15th Jun 2006, 21:09

20 years ago, I attended an NDT course at the Welding Institute, Cambridge, and a fellow student who was ex-RAF, assured me that he had been ordered to bury a Mosquito (and other aircraft that I do not remember), various Willis Jeeps, and other junk at Abbotsinch, during his National Service. Now that excavations are being carried out in preparation for possible runway extensions, I wonder what may re-appear. :D
30 years ago, a Canadian Lancaster that had been a crop sprayer, flew into Glasgow and then flew on to Strathallan. The private Strathallan collection was sold off in the early 1980s. Does anyone know what became of the Lanc?:bored:

Exasperated

15th Jun 2006, 22:26

30 years ago, a Canadian Lancaster that had been a crop sprayer, flew into Glasgow and then flew on to Strathallan. The private Strathallan collection was sold off in the early 1980s. Does anyone know what became of the Lanc?:bored:

The aircraft in question was KB976 (G-BCOH)

Apparently now with Kermit Weeks, Polk City, Florida for rebuild, badly damaged when a hangar collapsed on it at Woodford and being rebuilt allegedly with parts from KB994 and Lincoln RF342

Ex

Aeronut

16th Jun 2006, 07:35

Lancaster Crop sprayer:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
That should get the job done in no time!

TD&H

16th Jun 2006, 08:14

Aeronut

Just one Lanc at a time. Didn't they use (small) formations of B17s in the US for crop spraying? Three or four in echelon, methinks.

Would rather watch a Lanc any day though.

Dai Rear

16th Jun 2006, 18:30

Exasperated

16th Jun 2006, 21:08

Many thanks Exasperated for prompt reply; a much better reply than from Aeronut! I had always wondered what had happened to it. When it flew in, it was stated at the time that it was the only other flying Lancaster after City of Lincoln.

The Strathallan Collection was a wonderful mix of aircarft split up when Sir W J D Roberts sold it off, I believe due to the cost of upkeep.

Sadly my lasting memory of the collection was watching their Moth Minor tragically crashing during a display at the RAF Turnhouse families day in May 1975.

I will try and dig up some pics of the collection I have somewhere in the loft.

Ex

Dai Rear

16th Jun 2006, 21:37

When it was sold off, the Strathallan collection was widely reputed to be the finest private collection in the UK. At the time, the counrty was in the middle of the first Thatcher :D recession. Money was tight and many of the aircraft sold short of the expected price. :ugh: As usual, rich Americans bought many of them. :{

POBJOY

18th Jun 2006, 21:20

the kenley dump was well outside the perimiter track,and right alongside the fence that marked the start of kenley common.
i suspect that this area is now part of the common,and is certainly well outside the operational (mainly weekends) part of the old airfield.whilst i would not condone indiscriminate digging, making a detector survey would certainly get the headphones ringing,but remember flattened car roofs would be a big target,so you had better be able to discriminate between steel, and alluminium.
kenley only had a very small fire section, so there was no big requirement for a training area after the fifties.the spits were a legacy from (reach for the sky),and one ended up on a plinth near the small naaffi shop.it was a mk9 with packard merlin,and was is good condition,with engine covered in a storage wax compound.it was given a general clean up and repaint in the mt section during my time,and looked the part.this was in the hangar that survived the aug 18th raid.i remember going in there one sunday to get the mt out and it was sitting on its u/c looking a gem.(was eventually presented to the french a/f and went to tours) (i think)
i can assure you that nothing of reasonable interest would have escaped our attentions,and therefore the 1930's level would be many feet under the surface.
on one early sat morn vist the whole area was covered in thousands of 303 links,i had some belted up with our used cases from the range.a detector visit to the site of the aircraft butts (near golf lane) would no doubt give up some 303,and 20mm cases!!
good pinging.

POBJOY

18th Jun 2006, 21:28

so sorry the spit was mk 16 (same as mk 9 but with packard 66)

Mark22

18th Jun 2006, 22:08

so sorry the spit was mk 16 (same as mk 9 but with packard 66)

RR263...and the French managed to get it airborne, up to about 2m, down the length of the runway.

It is now painted as 'TB597' and resides at the Musee de l' Air.

PeterA

POBJOY

19th Jun 2006, 21:28

thanks for that mk22.
of course what i would realy like to know is what happened to the portuguese hurricanes that came over for the earlier (angels one five) film.
they are recorded as entering the uk via tangmere,and all returned.
i think pz865,and Lf363 joined them,but certainly they all dispersed back to thier various homes.
i have never seen much in the way of info as to thier fate,so were they all scrapped after service.this of course was well before the warbird scene got under way,and i can find no reference to them as being under consideration for the much later BOB film(although 865,and 363)were of course back in action.
in the sixties we had a seafire at kenley for a while as part of the RAF display for one of the royal tournanments.i think this was a griffon model,and was used in a BOB tribute it being able to be rolled into the arena (wings folded through the doors) (lights off) (prop turning) (electric),and towed across the arena (wings down) by a hidden cable,with suitable engine sound effects.
i saw them practice this for weeks near our ATC hq,and then saw the actual event at earls court.
i would like to think that there are some artifacts still lying under the old dump,but its getting past all the old cars that will be a problem!!
will post my finding tom gleaves hurricane (1964) if interested.

Mark22

25th Jun 2006, 23:31

in the sixties we had a seafire at kenley for a while as part of the RAF display for one of the royal tournanments.i think this was a griffon model,and was used in a BOB tribute it being able to be rolled into the arena (wings folded through the doors) (lights off) (prop turning) (electric),and towed across the arena (wings down) by a hidden cable,with suitable engine sound effects.
i saw them practice this for weeks near our ATC hq,and then saw the actual event at earls court.
.

Your Seafire was SX137 painted as "W1932/TT-C/Suzy/four kills".

Currently still on display at the FAA Museum.

PeterA

POBJOY

26th Jun 2006, 19:52

thanks for that mk22, i saw it earlier in the year at the peter twiss day,but did not realise it was the same one.
glad it survived,but what happened to all those hurricanes (come on someone)
a late user of kenley in the sixties was a french vatour that landed there by mistake thinking it was b/hill.this was during the arc to arc race,and it trundled through the fence (very flimsy )on to the common.it flew out soon after, so that is not in the dump either.
there were also various aircraft panels,and odd control surfaces/parts of aircraft structure made in to camps by the local kids in the woods that were part of the common.some of these had german markings on them, and could have been left over after the (angels one five film),or were film props.
if we had been old enough to drive, and the transit van had been invented no doubt we could have extended our limited store of bits!!
the damaged merlin engine at duxford out of tom gleaves hurricane had been discovered many years before it was recovered,but even four cadets could not carry it out back to kenley where it had taken off from in 1940.

Moondance

28th Jun 2006, 09:42

The private Strathallan collection was sold off in the early 1980s. Does anyone know what became of the Lanc?:bored:

Some pics from Srathallan, about 1982, post auction, but still running in a slimmed down form.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h78/Moondance1/G-AWLW-1.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h78/Moondance1/G-AWLW-2.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h78/Moondance1/G-BCOH-1.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h78/Moondance1/G-BCOH-3.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h78/Moondance1/G-BCOH-2.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h78/Moondance1/RS712-3.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h78/Moondance1/RS712-1.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h78/Moondance1/G-AZWT-2.jpg

Lucky Strike

28th Jun 2006, 22:41

I was talking to an old friend last night about this "buried aircraft" nonsense

Years before I got involved in aviation I used to work with an old timer mechanic who was called up from our then employer to re-train as an engine fitter for the RAF, for second world war service.

His last job before de-mob and return to our employer was to unpack crates of Merlins, knock a hole in the side of the crankcases with a sledgehammer and bury them.

I can't remember the airfield he was based at and he has passed on so I can't ask him. But he was no aviation anorak with fantasies of buried treasure, he was an engineer lamenting the ruination of engineering masterpieces.