Why is it everyones goal to fly a big jet ?? [Archive]

buzzc152

31st May 2006, 14:00

I may be wrong here, but it seems to me that many people here simple want to fly a jet in an airline and would consider anything else as a 'inferior'.

I like flying aeroplanes, I like being in aeroplanes, I like just being around aeroplanes etc and would be quite happy spending my career flying twin pistons, small turbo props..... anything really. For many who aspire to be pro pilots, why is it that a big shiny jet is the only option ? To my mind, you become a pilot because you enjoy flying and it shouln't matter too much what it is you fly.

Anyone else agree ?

Superpilot

31st May 2006, 14:05

My thoughts:

You flyer higher
You fly faster
You fly for longer
You fly to many more destinations
You fly for a much more recognised purpose
Jets are safer(?)
Renumeration
Jets are far more interesting (for most)
Glass cockpits are far more interesting (for most)

On speed on profile

31st May 2006, 14:13

I want to fly jets (or big turbos) because you can get out of the worst weather (icing) more easily, you have wx radar and, if you have an engine failure, your departure is supposed to be gauranteed. Its not on a piston twin!

Icing and bad wx + not having the ability (due lack of pressurisation) to fly out of it is the main reason.

I heard someone say a while back...... "If you cant fly the fastest, fly the biggest!" It makes sense to me!

femaleWannabe

31st May 2006, 14:14

I've only just started my PPL.. but eventually I would like to fly a big jet. However, I'm not overly bothered about coming straight out of training and getting a jet job... I'd quite happily spend a few years flying smaller aeroplanes. I think this would make for a far more interesting career than getting a jet job straight away. If you go straight to the big jet with an airline, what else is there to aim for? It's unlikely you'd "progress" to something smaller after a few years. I don't understand the fascination with getting there straight away - I'd guess it comes down to earning money to pay off the debts.

RYR-738-JOCKEY

31st May 2006, 14:14

..and some people fancy gliders, paragliding, or just simply spotting planes.
You have decided for yourselves that you like twins and small TPs. That's your choice and it will for sure be an interesting career, but I wouldn't swap with you if I got a million bucks.

Superpilot

31st May 2006, 14:32

Antonio Montana

31st May 2006, 14:36

It feels great getting a 60 ton aircraft doing whatever you want when you hand fly it. its awesome

Will88

31st May 2006, 15:16

I may be wrong here, but it seems to me that many people here simple want to fly a jet in an airline and would consider anything else as a 'inferior'.
I like flying aeroplanes, I like being in aeroplanes, I like just being around aeroplanes etc and would be quite happy spending my career flying twin pistons, small turbo props..... anything really. For many who aspire to be pro pilots, why is it that a big shiny jet is the only option ? To my mind, you become a pilot because you enjoy flying and it shouln't matter too much what it is you fly.
Anyone else agree ?

I'm totally with you.

I really am not at all desperate to get on jets, in fact it doesn't really appeal to me in the slightest.

hingey

31st May 2006, 16:18

Totally agree with what female wannabe said. If the transition is from IR training on a Seneca or Duchess to a 737, have you really gained enough experience to handle something like that? Without diving into the MPL argument, I think starting off as a 'hands on' pilot will greatly increase your skills and judgement, whereas jumping straight into a jet is almost a tad risky. I've met cabin crew who say they feel unsafe with a 22 year old second in command of over 100 lives with nothing but a handful of hours on type.

Having to make decisions about weather etc makes the better pilot. If two pilots both have 15,000 hours, one all on a 73 the other on light singles and twins, turboprobs and jets, who do you think is likely to be the most experienced?

I also feel if you start high up the ladder, where do you go from there? I'd rather progress to the left seat of a jumbo, feeling as if I'm really earning that seat. Someone once said to me "If you are truly a pilots pilot, you won't mind what and where you fly". One of the best pieces of advice I've ever had.

h

Ghostie31

31st May 2006, 16:41

hingey

Thats great logic an'all but when you have just finished training at somewhere like OAT for example. Their is the slight matter of £60k to pay back. The fact of the matter is flying jets generally pays better. If/When I come out of flight training one day, I would love to fly as many types as possible, but realistically will that happen?

Ghostie

king rooney

31st May 2006, 16:42

simple. because the money is better flying big jets.

EI-MACK

31st May 2006, 17:10

OK I'll admit it. Being very computer/IT/automation minded I personally see myself as someone who would gain far more satisfaction out of punching a few numbers into a keypad, turning some dial and watching the plane follow. Sure I don't mind hand flying and riding the rough with my own hands and feet once a while but I do love automation and currently only jets can offer that. Thats me being honest for ya! :p

I must say (and bear with me with my Muscular 1 hour of flight time) i have to kinda aggree with you there Superpilot.. i have always enjoyed the navagation/ punching in numbers and moving dials/ setting course etc and watching it folow your instructions when playing Flight sim at home.. although i flew a Piper PA-28 for the first time (in real life :ugh: ) a few weeks ago and really enjoyed the actual feeling of handling the aircraft

im currently looking for cheaper places to get hours and training.. looking at the pilot college here in Waterford Ireland but thats another thread.. so i dont want to go off topic in my very first post :D

cheers

Felix Saddler

31st May 2006, 17:26

Flying big jets in an airline allows you to spend more time with your fit flight attendants!!;)

EI-MACK

31st May 2006, 17:33

and there we have it!! the industrys biggest secret has just been Revealed!!!!

bad credit

31st May 2006, 18:51

Hingey. I went onto a 737 with just over 200 hours. An experienced type rating examiner decided that I was good enough to pass my LST. After my line training, a training captain decided i was good enough to be released to the aviation world as a pro pilot.
I was also cabin crew for many years before hand and with the greatest respect to my colleagues down the back, how can they pass judgement? I couldnt have...
Another angle is this. Many of the emergencies conducted in the sim will never happen to a pilot in his career. Flying day to day is not rocket science. It is when it goes wrong that is the real test. An experienced pilot is just as inexperienced to an engine failure at V1 as a 200 hour pilot when it happens for real the first time. Experience gives you the capacity to deal with the problem but everyone has passed the same sim tests to deal with it. Experience obviously counts for a hell of a lot. Is that not why you have a captain and a first officer?
This is only my opinion and i am sure there are many who may disagree. Thanks for your time...... Answers on a postcard!

On speed on profile

31st May 2006, 19:06

Bad Credit..... So you go to work every day, jump in your big shiny jet and think........Many of the emergencies conducted in the sim will never happen to a pilot in his career. Frankly, it shocks me to think a jet pilot with 100+ pax down the back has that cavalier attitude. You practice emergencies because they can and do happen. Qutoing the fact that it is a 1 in 1 million chance (or whatever it is) of getting a V1 failure means nothing when that one time happens to you.

You are absolutely correct when you say.... It is when it goes wrong that is the real test. but you couldnt be more wrong when you say An experienced pilot is just as inexperienced to an engine failure at V1 as a 200 hour pilot when it happens for real the first time. Wrong.... A captain has loads more experience, has practised the drill many more times than you have, understands the principles a lot better and has more capacity. From then on your thread just contradicts itself.

Honestly, if the first quote is your attitude, you need to pull your head in man! Keep it in mind that you have only been tested for "bad" emergencies in a simulator where the worst that will happen is some soiled pants with a p45 following shortly after. You havent been tested in real life. You should always assume the worst scenario, then you are always prepared for it. If you dont, then when it does happen you sure as hell wont be ready. In my last OPC/LPC, I was told to assume EFATO. Self brief it, give yourself the options in your head, formulate a plan then go for it.

When the captain is giving the T/O brief, are you sitting there thinking, it will never happen to me!!! From the sounds of it, you are.

I live by a saying.... Assumption is the mother of all f$%k ups! Never assume it will never happen to you. NEVER! :=

christopherrigby

31st May 2006, 19:09

You haved hit the nail on the head my friend.

I got my FATPL back in 2001 (2 months after 9/11). Basically, I love flying. Flying anything. I have some turbo prop time, I instruct out of Cranfield and above all, I do not aspire to fly a bus back and forth, day after day, year after year. Yes, the money is good, but I like spending time with my wife and friends and my present position allows me this. I have a company that affords me a nice standard of living, but I still look forward most of all to the days I spend in an aircraft. Don't care if it is the Gulfstream or a PA28. The challenge is the same and the experience always fullfilling.

There are too many people out there who appear to want to be pilots so they can tell people they are a pilot. Come on, being a pilot is about just being in the air - In whatever.

Good call and enjoy your time in the air.

scroggs

31st May 2006, 20:45

An experienced pilot is just as inexperienced to an engine failure at V1 as a 200 hour pilot when it happens for real the first time. Experience gives you the capacity to deal with the problem but everyone has passed the same sim tests to deal with it. Experience obviously counts for a hell of a lot. Is that not why you have a captain and a first officer?

Your first statement (within this quote) is incorrect. By the time I had my first engine failure at or near V1, I had practised the situation in the simulator several hundred (or maybe thousand) times. I had also dealt with engine failures and other -real - emergencies on many occasions. That experience was invaluable in dealing with that situation. At the time of that V1 failure (acually, about 10-15 knots before V1) I was an FO on a B747 with 385 passengers on board taking off from Manchester. It was quite an interesting few seconds!

That said, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with line-releasing a pilot to fly, say, a 737 with around 350-400 hours. As long as the training system is rigourous enough to ensure that the student gets the maximum benefit from the training, and has the integrity to set and enforce minimum standards below which a student is removed from that training, then the airline should have every confidence that the new pilot will be able to operate to a certain minimum, but acceptable, standard, and will gain experience, knowledge, and usefulness as time goes by - until he or she is deemed ready for a command.

There is, however a great deal to be said for gaining experience in smaller, and, yes, arguably less reliable aeroplanes. Once on a modern jet, it is probably fair to say that the kind of emergencies practiced in the simulator are unlikely to strike most pilots. However, a great many testing situations will occur, of the type which can't be carried out in the sim - and it's here that experience is invaluable. Whether it's dealing with turbulence in the cruise, or lack of ground equipment on arrival, or any one of a myriad of situations which affect a pilot's daily life, you'll learn more, and faster, on that TP commuter than you will on an A320.

At the end of the day, those of you expecting to work in UK are extremely lucky that you can hope to have a choice of what to fly; there are many parts of the world where such a choice would be seen as pure luxury! Ask any Antipodean, for instance.

Scroggs

rduarte

31st May 2006, 21:28

Right now I am flying a L-1011 and my dream is to fly a.......Grand Caravan some where out there.

Each time I take my seat in the cockpit I review the emergencies in my head,I have had already an aborted TO 5 Kt before V1, and I can garanty you training in the sim and experience are everything.

bad credit

31st May 2006, 22:08

You are wrong to make the assuption that a statement i wrote is the attitude i take into the air. It was a statement and that was all. Is it not fact that people go through their career without encountering a major failure? Can i not say this without my integrity as a pilot being brought into question?
I am very aware that things can and do go wrong and prepare myself as best i can incase they do.
I did not explain myself properly with regard the next quote but you are totally right with experience in the sim etc.... I did mention the capacity side of it but practice i didnt so thanks for putting me straight on that one.
You also mention that i have only been tested for emergencies in a sim environment. Thats true. Taking into account the experience debate, if you have only ever had an emergency in a sim, 200hours or 5000 hours then its going to be a new experience for both of you when it happens in real life. That was the point i was trying to make so apologies if i confused you.

jayteeto

31st May 2006, 22:33

If I fly a big shiny jet, I can afford to fly a small piston single for fun.

BitMoreRightRudder

1st Jun 2006, 00:01

I'm with jayteeto, I like taking me Ma' for a spin round the dales in a 152 and flying (well, ok - operating) a jet as a day job means I can afford to do it on a reasonably regular basis.

And to the guys saying how much they love automation - fair enough but you soon get envious of how much 'hand flying' the autopilot does while you sit and watch!

On speed on profile

1st Jun 2006, 09:52

I'd bet even your limited experience exceeds that of OSOP. You are absolutely correct my friend, what an informative statement. :D I have zero actual hours on a "big shiny jet" and if you looked at my profile, you would see that my current type is MEP. My "limited" experience however, includes a few years with many OPCs and numerous real world failures (in aircraft that dont gaurantee good climbout performance OEI) as well as many simulated emergencies performed in the actual aircraft.

I dont apologise for having a stong opinion on the statement...

" Many of the emergencies conducted in the sim will never happen to a pilot in his career " ....

... because this shows a distinct lack of respect for what can and does happen in real life and it conditions a person to not expect the unexpected. You train for emergencies because they DO happen whether thats in an SEP, MEP, MET or MEJ aircraft.

Bad Credit, I was not criticising your ability or your determination however you made a pretty strong statement that should be beaten out of every student by every instructor. You got a low time job and now fly a jet and that is to be commended however, it comes with a huge responsibility and (as I still do) you have a lot to learn. A little respect for the aeroplane always goes a long way and would be the best place to start.

Jacks a dull boy, This is not a pissing into the wind competition. I am happy wth my situation but when I hear that comment, a chill runs up my spine! Regardless of the experience level of the pilot that says it. I dont apologise for that! Heres a thought, why dont you make that statement at your next LPC/OPC and see what reaction it gets you!

scroggs

1st Jun 2006, 10:08

If I fly a big shiny jet, I can afford to fly a small piston single for fun.
I wish that were true! :{

Scroggs

bad credit

1st Jun 2006, 10:55

I know that i have loads to learn and enjoy that challenge. I also know i will be learning to the day i retire. Again... I have explained that i made a statement. Its a fact. This does not mean i dont have respect for the aircraft i fly or think that i am exempt from failures etc....Far from it. You say that you should never assume in an earlier post. I agree. When i make a statement dont assume i lack respect for the aircraft.

On speed on profile

1st Jun 2006, 12:04

Bad Credit,

I thought I had always respected my aircraft fully until one day, I questioned the reason a Chief Pilot about his reasons for operating in a way that was contradictory to my training (what someone else had taught me). What he said, shocked me into thinking about the implications of getting something wrong because the person who had trained me had failed to instill the importance of preparing oneself fully to expect the unexpected. I realised that I hadn't been taking the threat of OEI after takeoff as seriosuly as I should and now, my pre takeoff checks take 15 seconds longer than they used to. Every time! You are right about the fact that something like a V1 failure happens very rarely but the point I was trying to make is that you should always expect it to happen, no matter how rare it is. I think you have got that point now and I am sure you (and I hope everyone else on this thread) will be thinking about it hard next time you line up on the runway.

Safe flying!

1972

1st Jun 2006, 13:22

I'm sure like many people here, I've always got a kick out of flying, either as a passenger or a spectator. I've always been fascinated by big jets and fighter aircraft, but up until recently I'd never had any interest in any aircraft with a prop.

At least that's what I used to think before I started to fly - now it's all the other way around. I guess because I know I'll never be able to find the time or money to learn to fly a jet, this side of aviation doesn't consume me as much as it once did.

People I have met say that while flying airliners is a wonderful lifestyle (read exotic destinations, nice hotels, social life, but travelling is not always fun in excess, especially when so much of your time is spent away from family), there is a lot more management of the aircraft and less flying to do compared to the much more basic, seat of your pants flying that some of the small props offer. On that proviso, for me at least, I now think flying props sounds better. Not as glamourous no, but possibly a little more romantic?

Don't all shoot me down in flames, this is just my opinion and I'm not dissing airline pilots or their craft. If I was given the chance I'd love to fly a jet but for me that would only ever be a pipe dream.

Realistically, I could only ever hope to gain PPL and some endorsements to improve my skills but time and cost would always limit my hobby to props. Maybe if I win lotto(!), and I'm good enough to be able to instruct complete newcomers like me one day, I'd be absolutely wrapped.

I hear the pay sucks and for many it's a means to an end, but as someone who has had the pleasure of teaching others, I can say I've never done anything more rewarding. Teaching people to fly, I reckon that'd be job satisfaction in spades. :ok:

bad credit

1st Jun 2006, 13:23

OSOP. Your point is very valid. No doubt about it. To make the last point clear though. In all my posts i never said i did not expect it to happen. I do. Assumption once again. So i find it a little patronising when you say i have now got "that point". I allways have had and allways will have "that point"

Happy and safe flying to you too...

Seaweed Knees

1st Jun 2006, 13:58

To bring this thread back onto topic, Im happily flying a small twin turboprop around envying nothing except the paychecks that airlines have to offer.

As I get older I expect that i'll be more inclined to start looking for a better paying job but that will be the main criterion. Type/location are less important to me.

To take it back off topic again, I believe that experience is "the best" training.
I dont understand why 200 hr pilots are even considered for jobs that carry such a huge responsibility although there is obviously a valid reason.

raviolis

1st Jun 2006, 18:35

There's lots of people here posting with zero hours saying they want to fly jets and how they're gonna do it, Oxford, Cabair, Jerez, PPL at 17, ATPL at 19 and away we go. For how much one can appreciate the determination and forward vision and planning, to me it just clutters the posts and it doesn't really offer any useful information.
To me, knowing that Jimmy or Jane want to fork out 60 grand for an integrated .. well honeslty I couldn't care less.
I read this forum for months, without even posting a word on it because I had zero hours.
I felt sick on my first flying lesson. Didn't feel great on the second either. Had serious doubt until the 5th whether I would continue my PPL at all. Same doubts arose again around the 12th-13th, struggling with landings and all ! Now I'm loving it and it's the highlight of my week. But how do I know if I will want to fly a jet ? Have I ever tried one ? Will I be able to ? yeah sure, the idea sounds promising... but let the experience develop naturally and take it where it shall.
I think real experience from fellow pilots and trainees, information about courses, schemes... That's useful. But the "what I want to do when I grow up" kind of thing.... I'm not sure we want to know !
Getting there, the challenge and reward of pushing your learning limits a bit further, and succeeding... well that's part of the fun. You might just as well enjoy it, with all that it costs !
Quite frankly, reading about 13 and 15 year old kids has kind of put me off pprune, which I once looked at as an incomparable source of information !

Peace

spernkey

1st Jun 2006, 20:56

In my observations pilots always want to fly anything that burns more fuel than what they're in now! They are always looking "Up" at the next thing that flies higher than what they are in at the time!
This is such a shame esp. when these guys are young and can't quite just relax and enjoy the light aircraft experience for a bit without torturing themselves over the fact that Richard Branson et al hasn't found them yet. People can get a lot out of little planes but dont!
One reason is that they want to get the dosh back asap i suppose and i found it interesting that so many here prattle about the mony been good in the airlines - bollox - 25 year old plumbers make far more(and pay less tax possibly).
They could take all this pressure off the kids by re-instating the old BCPL which did not cost a bomb and allowed people to build experience at their own pace without mortgaging their granny!
Dont kid yourself that been an airline pilot means youve hit paydirt - years ago (before we started selecting rich enuf people above talented enuf people) Captains did indeed get big money - i reckon in todays terms the equiv would be £350-500 K ? whos getting that now???
In relative terms the money is going backwards so wake up and be honest about your motives.

On speed on profile

1st Jun 2006, 21:06

Spernkey,

Good work! That was beautiful. :D

If only the reality was different!

spotwind

1st Jun 2006, 22:00

1. EGO !

2. Money & Lifestyle (in your preferred order!)

3. Flying anything else is great fun but either a hobby, or a stepping stone.

Dan Winterland

2nd Jun 2006, 03:10

Size isn't everything!

Speaking as someone who has flown several big jets including classic and glass 747s, big = flying longer = more boredom = more fatigue. Flying a 747 across the Pacific may sound like the pinnacle of a pilot's career but it may mean one landing a month with lots and lots and lots of time in the cruise. The novelty wears off very very quickly! My airline is getting 747-400s. Everyone keeps asking "have you bid, you must want to fly them again!" Not a chance! Most of my colleages are Antipodeans who are desparate to fly something like a 747 because they don't get a chance to back in Oz. But after their first trip to Anchorage having flown 12 hours, being completely kn@ckered, landing in the dark (even though it's mid-day) in snow. I reckon their perception of the job will change very quickly.

Now I fly shorthaul on something much smaller - and it's great! More flying, more time at home, and I feel so much better!

But big is not necessarily harder either. The easiest big jet I have flown out of a total of five is the 747-400. The hardest flying, probably single pilot twin IFR. The most satisfying and fun - instructing!

Don't wish your life away. And you can always rent a small fun aircraft - unless you're like Scroggs and have a lot other comitments. Another hazard of long haul flying perhaps!

l_reason

2nd Jun 2006, 04:50

I’m with Spernkey. Way too many guys want to get in a big shiny plane long before they know how to fly a small plane well. I have found my self flying a light single in a demanding job. I think if I got a job flying a big jet I would want to jump of a bridge after a month. How exciding that would it be to have ZERO freedom (uniform, time, speed, altitude, heading you are told everything!). Going to work doing the takeoff then hitting the autopilot at 300AGL say a few words on the radio then climb to FL370 and wait until your ready to go down. Then you have the pleasure of watching it land itself. Not my idea of “flying”.
OK, You get a good pay (eventually) but why did you get into flying in the first place? Was it the pay, the lifestyle or the cool suit? I wanted a challenge, and I found it.
Cheers
If you want a challenge…. Ask Spernkey for a job.

DRKRUM 69

2nd Jun 2006, 05:54

C'mon I Reason...

How do you know? I find a lot of you a little Black and White on this...I've done the bush flying, and now work for the "Big Show"....

One of the companies I worked for involved fliying an MD-80 into Cuba n the middle of the night, no FMS, or even GPS sometimes.Lots of hand-flying...Non precision approaches. Flying well in bad weather is a great challenge...

Having done the flying from bush to commuter to airline to overseas in a 74, I can say it was all fun. Loved every minute., including all the "firsts" First Left seat, first "blow Job" (jet)...What a riot

I still rent a Piper whenever I feel the urge, and thats a blast too...

So to assume you would hate something you've never tried reeks of monotony...what a boring life..

l_reason

2nd Jun 2006, 22:14

DRKRUM. I’m sure working your way up to the big time you have seen a lot of great flying just as you mentioned. Do you think you would be as good of a pilot as you are if you stepped right out of school and landed a job in a new 737? Would you be happy only flying a computer your whole career on scheduled runs?

shaun ryder

3rd Jun 2006, 18:47

Hear Hear, lol.....

wingbar

3rd Jun 2006, 20:27

I certainly wouldn't mind a big jet job...staright away....really the in between stuff is a complete and utter hassle....when all we want really is to be on that big 737/767/777/747 etc etc ...

I feel so worried about the uncertainties of working in GA that if an airline came along tonight and offered me a jet job, of course I'd take it !

:)

Craggenmore

4th Jun 2006, 09:11

The view.
Getting out of England, if only for a short while, to feel some sun on your back during the ever so long winter months.
To learn from your Captains.
The security of multi-crew.
To meet new colleagues each day.
Someone else to file your flight plan :}
15 mile finals...

Wing_Bound_Vortex

4th Jun 2006, 13:32

It wasn't an initial goal for me, more something i thought might happen in the future, a long long way in the future! Would have loved to fly a TP or piston twin as a career start, the way things worked out i ended up on the 737. Has to be said that the money (eventually) seems to be better esp with all those training loans to pay back, which is one reason peeps may want to get on jets early on.

Yes we use the automatics a lot but that's to reduce the workload and give you time to do other things, plus esp when you're knackered it's far too draining hand flying all the time. But when you want to, take the automatics out and it's just like any other plane, this morning hand flew it up to TOC out of Lut no AP, AT or Flight Director doing it all raw data for the practice. It can be fun to fly the big stuff if you want it to be.

Visual approaches, circling etc all manual if you want keeps your skills sharper. So you can still get the handling kick in the big stuff with the security of multi crew ops, getting above the wx, CAT 3 etc etc.

Still like flying the light stuff as well! Nothing like VFR on a beautiful day :ok:

WBV

BitMoreRightRudder

4th Jun 2006, 15:13

this morning hand flew it up to TOC out of Lut no AP, AT or Flight Director doing it all raw data for the practice.

Always thought you were nuts!;) :p :E

Wing_Bound_Vortex

4th Jun 2006, 17:17

Always thought you were nuts!

Lol i find it helps in this company don't you mate?! :}

WBV

jamojdm

5th Jun 2006, 21:07

Well a jet job would be nice sometime in the future, preferably something along the lines of takeoff, turn on autopilot, turn off autopilot, land. Spend a day or 2 downroute and head on home.

But for the first few years I'd much rather fly 900hours a year in a non-glass cockpit environment.

Still cant believe I read pilots in terms and endearments complaining about the hours! Maybe they should do a full time degree while working part time at MAN, and then working 0500-2000 6 days a week during the summer hol to fund flying?

Jamo

Stratman

6th Jun 2006, 18:40

Probably most people assume there is something special or even glamorous about the notion of flying/operating jet airliners, Depending on what type of company you end up working for that particular myth soon fades. The important considerations then become, how many standby shifts must I work,will I get my expenses eventually, can I get home now and again so that I can have a life outside of aviation and many others. I have found that the most interesting jobs may not mean operating the latest offering from Boeing or Airbus but flying [ important distinction] a Chieftain or Kingair at 300ft over the sea on pipeline survey or ambulance work as an example. Once you enter this strange industry you will find its more about people and type of company than anything to do with types of machine.

WindSheer

6th Jun 2006, 19:55

About to start training, give me the right hand seat in anything!!

Even a twin otter.......bring on the achy shoulder....:ok:

AFCAS TARGET

6th Jun 2006, 23:34

Stratman,

you are right on the money. Its not long when you start to memorise the volmet freq. that its starts to fade. Give me my first love of GA anyday. unforunately the money isn't there on the modern day of married with children secnario.:{
Only is I was 10 years younger and flying floats in AK.:ugh:

Forgot to add though, I wouldn't trade it for the world, what I'm doing now!!!

redsnail

7th Jun 2006, 09:17

Definitely don't want to fly a big jet. In fact, I hope the biggest jet I fly is a G550. Actually, it's fuel tanks are too big.

I love flying a bizjet (Hawker 800XP) and it's avionics puts many "big jets" to shame. Flying's interesting, still get to talk to the pax and no two hours are the same.

Wanna-be

7th Jun 2006, 15:46

Hi,

I wondered why it is fun to fly a big airliner like a 737. You only need to do the take off and the landing. In fligh, you are checking your instruments and let the ap do the work. Tell me when im wrong!

Pilot Pete

7th Jun 2006, 16:02

You're right, it's boring, we all hate it. Thanks for your very wise comments.:rolleyes:

PP

Superpilot

7th Jun 2006, 16:15

You know when you're foreign, and you want to say something, and it comes out completely wrong....I bet that's what's just happened to wanna-be! :ugh:

Luke SkyToddler

10th Jun 2006, 08:51

The size of the aircraft has absolutely zero to do with my satisfaction levels.

Whether you're flying a C150 or a A340, the only things that will interest you after you've got a couple thousand hours flying time are

Having a paycheck that gives you sufficient leverage to do the things that actually matter in life
Having a pleasant working environment
Having a stable roster - and a company that respects it - so you can plan your life outside of flying
Not being too knackered to enjoy your days off when you get them

Fair_Weather_Flyer

10th Jun 2006, 16:24

I agree with the comments by Luke SkyToddler 100%. Sounds like the voice of experience! I have been flying a piston twin of late and the whole package is not much fun to be honest. The pay is no good, company are operating in grey areas, zero roster stability and I'm always shattered. The romantic notion of cruising around without the autopliot is not true either. The workload is too high to turn it off and you can't afford to mess up.

After a few years in the industry, I just want some stability in my life to have a life. If I could get the things Luke mentioned I couldn't give a damn what I'm flying.

Craggenmore

10th Jun 2006, 18:44

The size of the aircraft has absolutely zero to do with my satisfaction levels.
Having a paycheck that gives you sufficient leverage to do the things that actually matter in life

Don't they go hand in hand? Bigger = more £

topper3

10th Jun 2006, 23:42

I've just been offered a job flying RHS with a regional turboprop operator. I'm obviously over the moon with the result but I'm in no hurry to progress onto large shiny jets just yet. Ive been instructing for nearly 2 years and I can still confidently say that my ambition is to earn enough money to own and operate my own microlight.

My main motivation is the freedom that light aircraft flying brings. You cannot gain that freedom in an airliner. Just imagine the thrill of being able to carry yourself around the country as and when you please.

Some have that ambition, some don't.

To me, thats what flying's really about.

Just a thought

spernkey

11th Jun 2006, 16:48

I bet "Luke and "Fair" really hate been too tired to get the most out of their precious leisure time.
It shouldn't be allowed that peoples work generates fatigue or anything like that.
After years and years of of pilots been able to be precious the arrival of low cost operators who get 5 days work out of them should not be tolerated.
Hard work should be left to others and it is vital that we pilots are able to look sophisticated, relaxed and superior on our 6 days off out of 7, say.
It should be strictly for manual workers and the self-employed to get exhausted and needing to catch up on their sleep on their days off - in fact if they worked just a little bit harder and voluntarily paid a bit more for their tickets - the halcyon days of the "Precious poncy pilot" would surely return? We should UNITE to turn back the clock i say.
On the other hand couldn't you guys just go try a really menial, physically demanding job for a week (it'd make a great reality TV show) and bring a bit of work ethic back to your employers! Poor luvs.

haughtney1

11th Jun 2006, 19:03

Well, Id have to agree with Luke on this one (how goes the 319 course mate?)

Picture what I did today.....

Top of descent FL380....all the automatics out, flight directors off.

320kts indicated down to FL120, reducing to 290 through FL100, then back to 250kts through 3000 and level on a right base 7 miles from the extended centreline.
Cleared for a visual approach.....back to 180kts and flap 5, descend to 1500ft, rollout on the centreline extending the gear and Flap 20, bleed the speed back to Vref+5 (133kts) and landing flap (flap 30)...all spooled up and stable at 1000' radio.

Touchdown on my aiming point so softly that the only give away is the rumble and the spoilers extending......even the nosewheel kissed the concrete like feather....220 pax and 85 tonnes 757 arrive in perfect harmony.

Thats why I love flying (a biggish jet) ..and its why I get goose-bumps every time I strap the 757 on:ok:
Its only now at home when I appreciate the roster stuff..and a decent paycheck.

Fair_Weather_Flyer

11th Jun 2006, 21:26

I can understand your point Sperkney; flying 5 days a week sounds pretty tame as its the same as what most (none flying) people do. Unstable rosters can mess you up more than you would believe though. A mixture of day flying and flying in the middle of the night is worst as your body doesn't know if its coming or going. Irregular sleep patterns are a killer. Once upon a time I worked shifts, fetching and carrying in a factory but always felt fine in my leisure time. This was because I was able to take regular rest. Now I work half the hours of the average bloke but am knackered all the time

With the bigger aircraft comes better operators and with better operators, the rosters are more stable. I'm sure there are exceptions though.

spernkey

11th Jun 2006, 21:57

I know, mate - my tongue was in my cheek and i was trying to be a bit naughty. It's bizarre how fatiguing flying can be sometimes and not others. It is hard to put your finger on how it can be so cumulatively exhausting. I had to take a day out today after been in a Cesspit for 38 hours this week. Brain still thinks it's orbitting after a good night's sleep. Reckon with air taxi its all the other **** you have to field that makes it hard - the flight is the easy bit!
Happy , safe flying to all(whatever you fly).

Leo45

12th Jun 2006, 09:13

Flying is definitely the easy bit as far as air taxi is concerned.

All the rest can be a heap of sh** at times.

Hope I'll get a real job one day...

FlightDetent

12th Jun 2006, 12:26

Picture what I did today.....
Top of descent FL380....all the automatics out, flight directors off.

I always wanted to do it, but could not get past RVSM auto-pilot requirement. What's your workaround? Thanks...

FD
(the un-real)

beamer

13th Jun 2006, 14:02

To answer the original question - well, in fact I don't have an answer, at least not an easy one. After 30 years flying and all but the first three being paid to do so I would have to say that the best time of all was when I was doing my PPL - a feeling of nervous anticipation followed by a certain exhilaration which lasted all the way home - learning to fly with like-minded people who like me were always short of cash - behaving like hooligans once we had our licences and begun our aerobatic training - those were indeed the days.

Why would anyone want to fly large passenger aircraft today - not sure really - increasing automation, more 'commercial pressures' , a horrible phrase I know - the dreadful ego's of some, repeat - some, of one's colleagues - more graft,less reward from employers - hassle of driving to work - increased security post 9/11. I suppose in an ideal world one would get a good if not great salary flying a big radial engined floatplane with a bit of DC3 work thrown in one the side, chuck in a old fashioned flying jacket and a popsie on each arm........ah, dreams ! Perhaps the ideal time to fly passenger jets was in the late-fifties and early sixties in the hey-days of BOAC and Pan-Am when the skipper was held with some respect, the cabin crew all wore seamed stockings(incoming flak), low-cost airlines had not even entered Lakers mind, 707's and Comets ruled the sky and we still had an Empire to fly around.

Do I regret a career in aviation - no, would I do it all over again starting today - no but the very best of luck to all those who do !

Brandten

15th Jun 2006, 07:38

My goal is not to be flying 744 (or A380) 14-16 hours flights. There is so much more options....

I wouldnt mind doing approaches like this.....:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1053488/L/ (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1053488/L/)

.....from the other side:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1003526/L/ (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1003526/L/)

Doing some "island hopping" here:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1053485/L/ (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1053485/L/)

Land my little Dash and jump into the sea:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1006506/L/ (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1006506/L/)

Beautiful, and im sure my girlfriend would appreciate that far more then the 2 day flying away business with the "big birds"..... :)

Woof etc

15th Jun 2006, 07:52

until she sees your pay check......

spernkey

15th Jun 2006, 21:10

Woof etc.........take it from me you will never earn any real money monging about in any aircraft....period. If yer into money be a door to door salesman or something un-popular but well rewarding - but dont delude yersel there's any real money flying someone else's plane.
Decent respectable living , yes, life changing money, no. Please don't think i am pouring scorn or denying air-taxi is harder, less payed work - i just think we should be honest about our motives - we wanna fly! and the more people out there with 60 grand to hand in (and in a booming economy there are more and more) the more market forces will degrade the relative deal for a F/O in particular. Take a F/O's salary at the start and factor in an un-aided re-location and you will see what i mean about the money.
Sorry.

dimitrispa31

16th Jun 2006, 20:55

I have flown a lot of small aircraft,from a Cessna 152 to a Grand Caravan and a Chieftain but to tell you the truth whenever i handfly the 737 doing a visual approach i feel i am the luckiest guy in the world.Jets can be demanding some times and its true that you count a lot on automation for workload reduction.I agree with Antonio Montana,it feels great getting a 60 ton aircraft doing whatever you want when you hand fly it.It is something unique,a pure pleasure.