Type Rating - Citation I?

[alberto86]

hello all,

just a short enquiry, what's the place offering a cheap Citation I type rating?

Must be a JAA type rating, of course.

Thank you :cool:

[Pilatipus]

:) Try this guy. I just finished mine with him, he is very good with over 24000 hours. He is based in Germany and I completed the rating and renewed my IR at the same time for no extra charge.

Michael Hanke
Auf der Heese 35
D-58710 Menden
Tel.: +49 172 9675134
Fax: +49 2373 984862
Email:[email protected] (http://www.pprune.org/forums/[email protected])

[alberto86]

:) Try this guy. I just finished mine with him, he is very good with over 24000 hours. He is based in Germany and I completed the rating and renewed my IR at the same time for no extra charge.

Michael Hanke
Auf der Heese 35
D-58710 Menden
Tel.: +49 172 9675134
Fax: +49 2373 984862
Email:[email protected] (http://www.pprune.org/forums/[email protected])


Thanks, but is it a proper TRTO or what else? What do you mean by "this guy"? Can you explain better? Any specifical web address?

[Pilatipus]

Just finished my rating with him in Germany. Very competative rate, 3 days training 6 hours of flying plus flight test. Result Citation 1 & 2, RVSM certificte and renewed IR. Give him a call. He is an instructor for Silver Cloud Aviation with over 24000 hours, 10 years working for Citation. What he can't tell you about a Citation is not worth knowing.

[MrMutra]

Wow 3 days 6 hours flying for a type rating on a jet, now thats quick :eek:


MrM

[snake80]

can you tell me the price?Is it possible buy some hours on that Citation (like eaglejet)? thanks!!

[Pilatipus]

The cost is about 15000.00 Euro's, which includes all fees and examination. You need only pay for your flights to Germany and accommodation there. Michael picked me up for every day and took me to the airport and dropped me back at my hotel. He even treated me to a fantastic steak dinner on my arrival. On confirming a course date he will send you 2 CD's containing all the ground school covered including an interactive program for the FMS. The aircraft was very well maintained and available for me as booked. You have to love the Germans for their efficiency and professionalism. :D

[itsbrokenagain]

That price aint that cheap! and yes thats not many hours, I dont think I would like to fly with you in the first couple of hours in the air ( unless u had previous jet time of course )

But Flight Safety Intl I know for a fact can be got for around the same price out here in the USA( they wont include the accom, but they give you free lunch once a week at the school and donuts aka fat pills every morning ), I dont know how the EU insurance companies look upon it, but in the USA you must go to a big FTO for the type rating training to get insurance.

So maybe buyer beware for your future, I would talk to people who you intend applying for a job and asking who they train with before going boldly into the unknown and spending lots of cash . Unless of course you just feel like getting a Citation type rating, then by all means go anywhere and have some fun its a great jet.

PS my initial was in a Citation 2, it was 2 weeks, with I think 6 days groundschool, and then 6 days of 3-4 hr sessions in the sim, plus the 3 hr RVSM course...I think this was how it was, but it definitely wasnt 3 days and 6 hrs of flight training !

[Pilatipus]

Your are correct 6 hours is not a lot of flying but unless I am mistaken after passing a skill test with a JAA approved examiner I am good to go. Maybe you spent your first week waiting for Homeland Security to get back to you with your security clearance. Last I heard before any flight training in the US for us Europeans approval from Homeland security clearance was about a month. What a way for your government to cr@p all over your flight schools.
The flip side is that I may not wish to fly with you being a bit slow on the uptake.

[itsbrokenagain]

FYI my TSA clearance took a whole ---- 2 hrs!!

And can anyone tell me any jet that needs just 6 hrs for a initial type rating course .

also FYI I did the STANDARD course at Flight Safety, just the same as the other 10 people in my class and the countless other hundreds who have done their training there . Believe me when you sit in the left seat of that little jet ( which you obviously havent done yet ) 6 hrs is really really far too few hours. I have now 400 hrs sitting in it, and can speak from experience that 6 hrs of training is not enough!

I think I felt really comfortable after 100hrs in the plane, and then it was still the problems with weather (ie iced up runways ) and external conditions like climbing to FL430 at max gross at ISA +5 C , or take off from a 12500ft elevation runway at max weight etc etc that are now the learning items, something that no one can be taught in training.

If I had my course program I would post it here, I will look and see if its around somewhere....actually here it is:

Ground Training : 41 hrs

Briefings and debriefings: 10.5 hrs

Flight simulator: 14.5 hrs Pilot flying
4 hrs pilot not flying - 18.5 hrs total sim

Plus the type ride:

Oral exam 2 hrs
Flight time: 2 hrs
Debriefing : 0.5 hrs



But good luck with that type ride !

[Pilatipus]

Sorry not going to get into a debate on flying standards.
The question I answered was to help a fellow pilot who was looking for a recomended FTO which was what I set out to do.
I found the training sufficient to pass a written exam 110 questions, oral exam with examiner prior to a skill test on the A/C including stalls, tight turns, engine failure, hydraulic failure, single engine ILS, non-pres. approach, flapless landing.
I agree with what you say about the time it takes to become familiar with an aircraft and I aknowledge Flight Safety as a well established professional training organisation but there are other options and I would far rather give my money to a very experienced qualified fellow pilot and not line the pockets of a multinational organisation with management, accountants, agencies and numerous other people who will happily skim off a percentage of your hard earned money to buy their holiday homes, SUV's, boats etc.
P.S Flight Safety have opened up in the south of England, so that's another option for you if you don't feel confortable with my recomendation. Save going through the TSA and waiting for your acceptance to fly in the Land of the Free.

;)

[Pilatipus]

Hold on, just checked your last reply. Are you telling me you now need clearance as a US citizen to train in your own country.:ugh:

If you check back Alberto86 is from Italy that long shoe shaped country in Europe. Unless things have changed, after the first week of its introduction the wait for non-US citizens clearance was a week and I have heard since then its now about a month(I may be wrong) but I'm quite sure its not something the Training schools will want to advertise.

[MrMutra]

I agree with itsbrokenagain,

3 days 6 hours :ugh: it is way to quick. My friend has just completed a recurrent training and that took 3 days and 6 hours work in the sim.

Yes i am sure they teach the minimum you need to know and in 3 days it must be the minimum. But not the same learning from a book or cd as doing it in the sim.

FSI CAE and most others conduct a course for citations in a around 14 days. 7 days for the ground school and then 7 days for the flying and skill test.

I think home land security are trying there best to prevent another terrorist attack and not to cr@p all over your flight schools. Yes it is frustrating but i took 2 hours to get approval.

Pilatipus the comment regarding FSI , yes it is expensive, but highly professional and take you through everything you need to know, and even stuff thats not in the book. They too have highly experienced pilots.

I think the point itsbrokenagain is trying to make, is that you get to learn in the sim all major failures and situations you can come across, which is not possible in 6 hours... Within that time frame you are just getting to grips with the basics. When things go wrong you will always fall back on your training and on line flying.

But I guess if your happy and the insurance companies are happy :D well done.

MrM

[itsbrokenagain]

Pilatipus, no not a yank, and yanks dont need the TSA approval, just prove they are citizens to the FTO and thats the end of the story.

They do advertise on the TSA website and the schools will tell you also 30 days for clearance, but they have somehow streamlined the system in the last year and get them approved quickly now.

And yes MrMutra has put forward what I was trying to say also.

One thing I did come across in real life which am 99.9% certain you havent as you did the training in a actual jet ( which there is nothing wrong with, even at FSI you can opt for this training also ) but about 2 months into the job, we got a right thrust reverser deplay at 500ft after take off, it flew just like the sim, and the emerg stow system did its job and we did a circuit and landed. Hence the sim sessions and mutliple ones , and yes my recurrent at 6 mths was 6 hrs sim and something like 12 hrs ground.

I have looked around and noticed there are other schools doing a 6 hr to 9 hr in aircraft type rating, pretty interesting, that would be a big learning curve, even more so if you had never touched a jet.

But for me , spend the same amount of money and get a ton of sim hours and a ton of ground school hours at a big school like FSI/CSI etc, makes simple sense as you get a lot more value for your money. ( lucky my company pays for all my training so I dont have to worry about the value for money bit !)