Gatwick - Heathrow Islander and S61 Questions

[Opssys]

I would like the 'teams' assistance in dealing with some questions which could escalate from minor disagreement, to blood on the carpet, refusal to buy a round, or the worst possible outcome beer being spilt.

a) The Period when the Westward Islander Gatwick-Heathrow Airlink operated?
I believe summer 1969 - summer 1970.
Sub question as it operated at the Gatwick end from the GAT was this one of the reasons why it was deemed unsuccessful?

b) The period when the BAA/BAH (later BCH)/BCAL Helicopter Gatwick-Heathrow Airlink Operated?
I believe 1979 - 1985 - But I am really on shaky ground with this one.
Whilst the Rotorheads have been discussing this service, no period of operation has surfaced.

I have searched Google (but I bet the answers are there somewhere, but I cannot find them) and PPRune (all forums) with no result

Many thanks in advance to whose who's 'little grey cells' haven't been corroded by Harvey's Best Bitter and various Spirits
DIH

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

The Link started on 9th June 1978 and the last flight was on 6th February 1986. I can't find the info about the Islander.

One of the Heathrow ATCOs got a ride in the Link one day and there were no fare-paying pax so he was invited up front and allowed to fly it. When he left the flight deck after landing the stewardess accusingly said: "It was you flying it, wasn't it?" How could she have known.....?

[treadigraph]

How could she have known.....?

The flying was smoother? :E

[Opssys]

Many thanks Heathrow Director for the Dates of the JV Airlink Service.
Still amazed that you had the information to hand so quickly.
Ah Tredders - Good response, but the Rotorheads might not be impressed.

The Islander service is beginning to intrigue me. I am sure it operated in 1969 and 1970 and obviously was not successful commercially as if it had of been someone would have taken up the licence even if Westward had dropped out.
At Gatwick (note got the spelling right this time), Stand 1 would have been better than the GAT (Perhaps the BAA were being unhelpful as it was an Islander). Which makes me wonder where it parked at LHR?

DIH

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Got a little bit more for you. The Westward Airways Islander link started on 25 June 1969 but the exact date it finished I know not. When it started it used to slot in visually behind ILS traffic. That was before the days of vortex wake and such a procedure now would cause intolerable delays. You may be interested to know that in 1969 there were just 168 Boeing 707 movements at Heathrow whilst there were 2570 by Britten Norman Islanders.

This and the previous information came from the book "Heathrow ATC, the first 50 years".

[treadigraph]

:}

Come to think of it, where did G-LINK park at LHR? Methinks it was somewhere close to Terminal 2, but the memories are so faded now...

[The SSK]

You may be interested to know that in 1969 there were just 168 Boeing 707 movements at Heathrow

?????????????? One departure every 4 days ??????????????

BOAC, Pan Am, TWA, Qantas, Air-India, SAA, MEA all daily or multiple daily.

[Opssys]

Thanks Heathrow Director for both the Westward start date and the heads up on the Book "Heathrow ATC, the first 50 years".

The Statistics floored me for a couple of Minutes. I still cannot get my head around the incredibly low number of 707 Movements.

With great respect, are you sure that a Zero wasn’t dropped off at the end. 1680 is still extremely low, bearing in mind the number of 707 Operators using LHR at this time.

The Islander was a massive surprise, but once I got my head around the numbers I could see a possible explanation, but based on major assumptions and not being an LHR person, some vague memories:

a) The Islander Airlink was effectively operating for 6 Months in 1969.
This could provide conservatively a figure of 1200 MVTS possibly a lot higher (on some of my higher estimates over 50% of the total)

b) From the vague memories there were a couple of Airlines using Islanders on extremely thin routes from the regional airports not served by BAS/BEA.

c) I think Field Aviation was doing Islander Interior work and therefore Aircraft would pass through their facility on a non-scheduled but regular basis.

Whilst a big number those arrivals and departures all add up!

Meanwhile:
Tredders. I think your memory of the LHR Stand/Gate location is correct. Almost all pictures (including mine) show G-LINK at Gatwick, or doing airwork at Gatwick, or in-flight with no Ground detail. The only Picture I know is at LHR is of Pax Boarding the waiting Aircraft. This was taken from nearly above the Boarding Gate and doesn't provide any useful location cross-references.

My only vague memory indicates both Stand and Gate were totally dedicated to Airlink and were never used for any other purpose.
DIH

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Sorreeeee.... Typo on my part. Should read 747, not 707.

The Link used to park in the Hotel cul-de-sac (stand H34?). God only knows what that's called nowadays (probably gobbled up with 380 stands). It would then whizz out to 28L for take-off... or we'd break the rules and just launch it straight out.

[Opssys]

Ah 747 Mvts, all now clear! As for Typos, I am the guy who couldn't even spell Gatport Airwick, sorry Gatwick Airport!

As for direct launching the LGW ATC tended to do a similar trick, which is why I was surprised I have a photo G-LINK Ground Taxying (I must have taken it for it's rarity value :-)
DIH.

[Gonzo]

H34, or where it used to be, is now the access ramp for the T5 airside tunnel.

[WHBM]

HD :

As the first ever commercial 747 flight was Pan Am from JFK arriving Heathrow 23 January 1970 (it was the aircraft later lost in the Tenerife collision) I would be surprised if there were any Heathrow 747 movements in 1969 at all.

Regarding the Islander, I seem to recall an item some years ago saying as it was approaching Gatwick the main runway was blocked by a disabled jet and it was landed on the taxiway. I always thought this must be a tall story, surely that would not be licenced for a scheduled service operation, regardless of the aircraft's performance.

Tony Merton-Jones' "British Independent Airlines" gives lots of detail about the Westward Islander operation. The aircraft operated to/from Plymouth each day and the shuttle was a fill-in, 6 return trips a day, block time 15 minutes. Start 25 June 1969, last op 22 Aug 1970, but for the final month they had subcontracted it out to Southend Air Taxis with - wait for it - a Piper Cherokee. I think that merits a :ooh: !!! Wonder what the reaction would be if I tried to file a flight plan for myself with my Cherokee today for the same journey !

[The SSK]

From the vague memories there were a couple of Airlines using Islanders on extremely thin routes from the regional airports not served by BAS/BEA.
The only small a/c (twin prop) scheduled passenger ops at LHR in the Summer 69 timetable were:
The Autair Herald services to Dundee (Leuchars) - some direct, some via Blackpool and some via Carlisle
Ditto to Teesside - some direct, some via Hull (Brough)
Plus the Luxair F27 service to Luxembourg.
That's from the May ABC guide which didn't mention the Islanders

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<As the first ever commercial 747 flight was Pan Am from JFK arriving Heathrow 23 January 1970 (it was the aircraft later lost in the Tenerife collision) I would be surprised if there were any Heathrow 747 movements in 1969 at all.>>

OK... well all I was doing was quoting from a book.

[Captain Airclues]

I operated into Gatwick on 26th June 1969. I remember meeting the pilot of the Islander who had operated from Heathrow. I think that his name was Howard Fry. I remember that he also mentioned flying to Plymouth.

Airclues

[surely not]

I had always believed that the Islander ceased operations because it was taking up valuable runway slots, plus it defeated the idea of providing a timetabled connex when it had to queue for ages to get onto the runway.

Used the airlink on a few occassions and always found it excellent, mind you one of the female cabin crew used to share the house I was living in at the time.
:ok:

[Bumz_Rush]

I understood it was an experiment to link LHW-LGW, and when the M25 was completed, this was the end. The permission was based on a limited period.
Watched them do the hover checks at the beahive, at LGW, (actually not the beahive but the hanger next to the beahive.). Then hop over the road for the first flight of the day.

My parents lived on Epsom downs, I watched it overfly many times....

Another problem was the NIMBY noise. As it would try to stay VFR, sometimes the noise was almost a bad as normal LHR traffic. But then came Concorde, and on the downs, you could actually see and hear it roll from LHR......Now that was noise.......

Also from LGW on sereval ocassions gave a life to Islander crew back to Plymouth in our PA 24 250 that we based at LGW, we landed and took off several times from the high speed taxi way, but in them there days it was different. (and better). also several formation take offs, one breaks left, one right and the 1-11 followed the SID.....great for the occupancy stats.

I will dig into the old picture box and see if I still have the hop the road shots....

Bumz

[Opssys]

Thanks to HD, WHBM and others my original questions have been answered.
But the thread now has a 'life of its own' and this has actually made it much more interesting than my original questions warranted :)

So far I have only found one picture of the Westward Islander on 'Shuttle Duty':
http://www.avphotosonline.org.uk/Gatwick/Img/G-AXFC_cc.jpg

I had completely forgotten that G-LINK would overnight at the BA (formerly BEA) Helicopter Base at Gatwick Airport South.

Bumz, I would be interested in seeing a photo of the 'hop over the road' .

DIH

[WHBM]

The M25 was completed here in October 1985, when the long section from Reigate to the A3 opened. The helicopter service thus ceased 3-4 months afterwards.

In the shot of the Islander (above) the reservation phone numbers at both ends have been painted on the TOP of the wings. I just wonder who ever they thought would see them (apart from the photographer here). I've seen info written on the belly of the aircraft, to be read from below, but never on top of it. Maybe they hoped to get the bottom level in the Ockham hold ?

[Opssys]

A question raised by Tredders is now intriguing me (I must get a life).
Where did the Islander park at LHR?

As for the departure queues at LHR (very good point 'Surely Not') on a 15 Minute Block time even a relatvely short delay on one departure could ruin your entire schedule for the rest of the day and lead to extremely annoyed SLFs!

Whilst there are many extreme examples of 'departure congestion' one that sticks in my mind was the CRJ that pushed back on schedule at Newark on a 45 minute block flight and actually became airborne 150 Minutes later.

As for shuttles whilst the indications are that the Islander service was not overwhelmed by people eager to use it, in the US a Boston - ? - Boston Shuttle CRJ used to regularly depart early because it was full (the reason I remember was we had to produce a workaround so the system didn't give warning alerts on that rotation whilst maintaining alert checks on other MVTs)

I feel I have probably caused some serious thread drift here. Oh well!

Update
I suspect the reason for the Booking Telephone Numbers being on top of the wings was that Westward expected them to be seen by people walking along the Piers at Gatwick and I guess Heathrow (after all a lot of people at Gatwick and LHR would always look down on an Islander:) ).

Also whilst mentioned on the post that started this thread, there was a discussion on the JV Airlink in Rotorheads which is here:
Rotorheads Thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=73984)

Although some of the ground covered has been duplicated here, much hasn't. However the reason for posting the Link now is there is a picture of G-LINK on H34 at LHR with boarding in progress.

Whilst there are a lot of very good G-LINK pictures on the Web, the only decent one of mine is in the Brilliant pictures thread (Pretty Good rather than Brilliant actually)

.
DIH

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I strongly suspect that the Islander rarely had to queue for take off at Heathrow. Thinking how we used to handle the Link - and even the SABENA F27 for that matter - I expect it got whizzed off sharpish from an intersection between departures if the weather was reasonable. I know for a fact that it had been known to circle just south of 28L and plonk into a convenient gap in the landers.

[Woomera]

Ahhh. Fond memories of the Bongo Van aka BN2 Islander. TO, climb and descend 65 kts.

Take off power 190 decibels, cruise power 189 decibels.

And the other wonderful variant, the BN2A MkIII Trislander........ "Would the rear passengers please alight before the crew........"

Britain's revenge on the Empire!!! :}

[chevvron]

One reason I heard for the failure of the Westward Airways route was the number of freebies they gave to Heathrow and West Drayton ATC staff!

[Captain Airclues]

I believe that one of the reasons for the demise of Westward Airways was the accident to one of their Islanders at St Mary's on 23/2/70 which necessitated the leasing in of replacement aircraft at considerable cost. In July 1970 the LHR-LGW route was sub-contracted to Southend Air Taxis but they pulled off the route after only a few weeks. Westward ceased operating on 16/10/70.

Airclues

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<One reason I heard for the failure of the Westward Airways route was the number of freebies they gave to Heathrow and West Drayton ATC staff>>

Nah.. where did you hear that?? What actually broke the bank was the limo and 1st class accommodation at each end, to which Heathrow and WD ATCOs were entitled!!!!

[chevvron]

Obviously you got a flight then!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Nope, I'm sorry to say..

[Mr_Grubby]

Jan '70 I was an ATCA on D watch, LATCC.

I did a trip after a morning shift. Flew over to Gatwick, had a couple of pints in the bar and then flew back. It was an ideal way of killing a few hours between the AM shift and the start of the night shift. We were on a 4 watch system then.

It was my first flight in an Islander. I remember not being impressed !!

Clint.

[chevvron]

And I remember you; I too was an ATCA on D watch in 1970.

[Talkdownman]

I did one 9 Aug 69 KK-LL-KK in G-AXHE as the only passenger (both ways) but with 2 crew. I vividly remember the PA began "Good afternoon, Sir, we at 1500 feet" etc..........
(Hey, Chevvron, you're not Frank Ifield, are you?:})

[chevvron]

You know who I am Norman; with all your Wisdom why ask? (TDM does a great impersonation of a certain comedian)

[primreamer]

I used the LGW/LHR S61 airlink many times in the early eighties. Seem to remember that it parked/boarded on the south side of pier 1 at LGW adjacent to the taxiway leading to the hangars. While at LHR I can remember taxiing to a stand next to a tunnel. But I thought this was the cargo tunnel leading to LHR's southside? Anyway the operation was a joint venture between British Caledonian and British Airways. BA provided the helicopter and engineering support and BCal put in the crews and ground handling, may have been the other way round, long time ago now. The S61 used to overnight in the hangar next to the Beehive at LGW which entailed a quick hop across the A23 after the last service of the day.
When the service was terminated one of the main drivers was that with the completion of the M25 section to link LGW and LHR a luxury coach service would take the helicopter's place. This was used as argument by the various parties in opposition to the airlink and while a coach service certainly did start, it was far from luxurious, was, and still is, very expensive and journey times are a joke. 15mins on the airlink compared to 2hrs+ by M23/M25 (on a good day).

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Had pleasure in flying in the Link one day from Gatwick
just had a look at the photos and we look so young only seems like 5 minutes ago
It made such a change from that dreaded bus service which I`m sure used to go via Scotland as it took so long

G-I-B

[Opssys]

After some thought and having oiled the memory over the past couple of weekends with Harveys Best Bitter. I have knocked together a draft article based on what remains of my memory from that era and the factual information posted in this thread:
DRAFT PDF Replaced by the 'production Version' 07 August 2006:

http://www.cue-dih.co.uk/aerospace/aeropdfs/air_links_lgw_lhr.pdf

So Link and associated comments in italics below are obsolete:


The draft in PDF Format is here: LINK Removed Overview of Past Air Links between Gatwick and Heathrow[/URL] currently text only. I will try and get permission for some 'good pictures' from the copyright holders to be inserted.

The working title is 'unwieldy' but will do for now.

I was going to PM only those mentioned at the foot of the article, but decided as three links to PPRuNe are included, maybe the Mods would let is go 'public' so that anyone can comment on what I have written (which would be appreciated).

I have noted there is at least one spelling mistake and I guess more will be picked up :-)


DIH

[The SSK]

Interesting article, I think it would be greatly enhanced with a map showing the approximate route. You cold also include the route of the Green Line bus to show what a trek it had to make.

However it did, in passing, touch upon a couple of things which would be at least as deserving of commentary - the arrival of the 'other' US carriers at LGW, which is probably reasonably documented, and the enforced move of some of the Europeans from LHR, which I suspect is not as well documented (I vaguely remember Iberia and TAP being forced out of Heathrow for a couple of seasons until diplomatic pressure let them back in again). They would certainly make interesting appendices to the story.

[Opssys]

Update 29th July 2006
I have posted an updated Draft and this has been submitted to picture copyright owners with requests to include their Photographs.

After some additional research which was frustrating to say the least, I eventually only lightly edited the Comments on the HMG Plan to Ease Congestion.

There are more hopefully interesting links added to the foot of the draft.

Whilst I would welcome more comments, there will be no more drafts, once permission to use pictures has either been given, or refused I'll release the Article for better, or worse :-).

Original Post 18th July 2006
Reference responses so far:
Speechless: Many thanks for your kind remarks. I will update the BCH(L) Entry with your additional information. By the way 'despicable' is probably an understatement!

SSK: A Map showing the various Routings and a 'Road Map' of how to get from Gatwick to Heathrow until the Motorway is a Great idea. Unfortunately I don't have either :-(

Re the US Carriers and the effort by HMG to ease congestion by moving flights on a Countyr/Region basis to Gatwick. Whilst I am now considering slightly expanding that section, to do either justice would require two separate articles. Especially as is the US case, one would have to cover the fact that Pan Am was already showing symptoms of decline before the new entrants arrived and the impact on TWA (both of whom did charters through LGW in the summer, whilst keeping their schedules firmly at LHR). From purely Gatwick perspective my knowledge is limited to Delta and Braniff as other agents dealt with the other carriers.

The Iberian Peninsula plan where Iberia and TAP would move to LGW was either an example of incredible cunning (really p*ssing off the Spanish who were being extra bothersome over Gib and Portugal was just collatoral damage), or a shining example of non-joined up government (almost certainly the latter see below:-).

I suspect one of the reasons this 'plan' is not well documented, is because it was never thought through and therefore was a early example of 'great idea we will annouce it and put some spin on it' . I don't remember Iberia/TAP actualy moving (and I certainly cannot remember anyone else doing so)!
DIH

[Opssys]

Whose of you who have looked at the updated PDF draft, may (if you got that far) have noted the paragraph on G-LINK as a flying crane. Well here is the evidence:

http://www.cue-dih.co.uk/tiam/pix/unkn/acft/airlink_08baa.jpg]

http://www.cue-dih.co.uk/tiam/pix/unkn/acft/airlink_09baa.jpg

I have forgotten where I got these pictures (definitely off the Web), but a very a quick search last night did not reveal the source.

I seem to remember G-LINK performed another Crane Job (Cross on spire ?), but that could have been just a bad dream brought on by duff bitter.

[Opssys]

After a gestation period rivaling that of a UN Resolution (and as about as useful :-)
The production version of the PDF is at:

http://www.cue-dih.co.uk/aerospace/aeropdfs/air_links_lgw_lhr.pdf

The draft will be removed (and the post containing the link updated).
Many thanks to everyone who increased my knowledge, jogged my memory and provided coments of changes, or support.
DIH