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View Full Version : WHAT, WHERE and WHEN


Fishtailed
27th May 2006, 18:03
No prizes for what aircraft, where it is and when the photo was taken.
I will be impressed with 3 out of 3
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/fishtailed/oldprop.jpg

jumpseater
27th May 2006, 21:56
Vicker Varsity, outside a hanger, during the day!:} I'd guess at Brooklands/Weybridge but that's as far as I'd go.

DH106
27th May 2006, 22:06
Varsity has tricycle gear - not a taildragger.
Prototype Viking?

treadigraph
27th May 2006, 22:09
A Valetta?

Tiger_mate
27th May 2006, 22:52
It is an RAF Valetta transport aircraft and my best guess is either a new build at the Brooklands factory in 1950, or more likely at Brooklands for modification to nav trainer in the middle fifties. Parked on the grass with wheels covered is normally indicative of an extended stay.

stevef
28th May 2006, 11:18
Yes, definitely a Valetta. Looks to me as if the starboard wingtip is missing. Possible signs of damage/metal repair to the nose as well. Not much help, am I...

virgo
28th May 2006, 19:47
1. RAF Valetta
2. RAF Melksham (Wingtips cut off to get in the hanger) Instructional aircraft
3. Late 50s ?? Say 58 ??

Fishtailed
29th May 2006, 15:50
One point to treadigraph for the first correct aircraft type.
Virgo is on the right lines!
Keep guessing.

virgo
29th May 2006, 20:24
How about Weeton............or Halton...........Cosford........St Athan ........Locking ???

Fishtailed
31st May 2006, 10:21
I took the photo on one of my many visits during school holidays,to my dad at work, (a civvie working for the 'ministry').I would ride in on my bike through the main gate(security?), past the beautiful black Hunter and silver Meteor. Why didn't I take pictures of them?

virgo
31st May 2006, 18:01
Tangmere used to have a Meteor and Hunter as gate guardians............but a clipped wing (extra maneouverability whilst engaged in supply dropping during the Malayan campaign ???????) Valetta ?

Just had a thought..........the two black hangars...............Farnborough ???

tornadoken
3rd Jun 2006, 17:03
1 ITS Bridgenorth. Closed 1963, so- 1961?
The Hunter was F.5 WP191, Meteor was F.3 EE405, scrapped when station closed. On the parade ground, exposed to elements and boys, were Hurricane LF686, now in Smithsonian, and, latterly Spitfire Vc AR614, now airworthy as N614VC.

Final 3 Greens
3rd Jun 2006, 17:35
Its not a Valetta, its a Valletta

Fishtailed
3rd Jun 2006, 18:42
Not Tangmere, Farnborough or Bridgenorth. I dont know if it was the parade ground but there was a large area full of Swifts being dismantled which my brother and me played in.

henry crun
3rd Jun 2006, 21:33
The only place I know of that had a large number of Swifts was St. Athan.

Fishtailed
3rd Jun 2006, 23:17
We also played in a bomber that I was told at the time was a Stirling, but have since discovered was a Lincoln. Looking back I remember some of the engines on the grass under the wings were straight , not round!! Great fun in the cockpit though, for a 12 yearold.

Woomera
4th Jun 2006, 08:12
WD159 at the RAF Colerne museum (before it closed)?

tornadoken
4th Jun 2006, 12:27
Catterick Fire School, 1962?

chevvron
4th Jun 2006, 12:43
Have you seen Catterick recently? The army have gone and built houses close to the runway! Normally they just put up a fence inside the peri-track so the runways can still be used, but you can't get off the airfield.
Anyway the airfield isn't Halton, the hangars are the wrong design, but it could be Bovingdon, which did operate Vallettas.

ZH875
4th Jun 2006, 13:50
How about RAF Valley, or Warton (Pre BAC/EE days), or even Squires Gate.

virgo
4th Jun 2006, 16:35
I think a load of Swifts were chopped up at Aldergrove............dunno if there was ever a Lincoln there ?

Cornish Jack
5th Jun 2006, 11:03
Shawbury MU used to put buzz saws through a lot of obsolete aircraft so... ??
The Va(single 'L')etta featured largely in my first log book; all those entries COULD have been mis-spelled - but I think not.:=

wub
5th Jun 2006, 13:31
Weston-Super-Mare?

treadigraph
5th Jun 2006, 16:05
The Vickers product is "Valetta" according to British Civil Aircraft Volume III (strangely enough!) but the place on Malta is "Valletta" as viewed on the appropriate page of my Oxford Cheapskate's Atlas...

Fishtailed
7th Jun 2006, 22:18
I had to be real carefull sometimes going to visit my dad on my bike because the roads were full of Bedford lorries with L plates on. Some days there seemed like hundreds coming out of the gate. Still, I learned to ride my dads motorbike in the grounds of the hospital across the road from the main gate when I was fourteen!

Cornish Jack
8th Jun 2006, 10:31
In that case, it has to be Halton .... yes??

chevvron
8th Jun 2006, 16:21
If it was pre 1960 maybe, but I've never seen hangars of that design at Halton post 1960.

ZH875
8th Jun 2006, 17:37
Maybe if the Hospital was not quite opposite the main gate, the picture of the hangars could be Hangers 546 & 547 at the top of the site at Cosford, now occupied by the Museum.

pulse1
8th Jun 2006, 17:55
How about a Valetta at Benson in the mid 50's. There was a ferry sqdn there about then and, as an ATC cadet, I had a ride from there to Kemble, Hawarden and St Athan.

Fishtailed
9th Jun 2006, 13:16
Sorry Cornish Jack, not Halton. ZH875, the hospital was directly opposite the main gate, and the station Officers Mess was in the hospital grounds.

Conan the Librarian
9th Jun 2006, 14:30
Not Wroughton, perchance?

Conan

chevvron
12th Jun 2006, 07:56
Nah wrong types of hangar again; Wroughton has C and L types; those look like T2's with corrugated asbestos rather than corrugated iron skinning. It's more likely Bitteswell or Barkston Heath.

Speedpig
13th Jun 2006, 05:04
I think it particularly sad that the type of hangar is generating more conversation than the lump of metal in front of them.
Anyway, Kenley 1959.:confused:

jumpseater
13th Jun 2006, 18:51
second try, location = Colerne Wilts?

Fishtailed
19th Jun 2006, 21:00
OK Conan, I'll reveal the location of the Valetta shortly, after you see this, taken a few miles down the road, and a few years earlier I would think, not by me though. Interesting eh!

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/fishtailed/dba0fe32.jpg

ZH875
19th Jun 2006, 21:22
Has Innsworth been mentioned yet?

Fishtailed
19th Jun 2006, 21:41
Not Innsworth, ZH. You were in the right area on one ocasion. One of Virgo's wild guesses was right, though.:D

virgo
20th Jun 2006, 20:39
Excuse Me ! Virgo does NOT make wild guesses - he carefully studies the options, weighs the pros and cons, considers all the evidence and then makes a well informed judgement.......................if he got close, it's the third good decision he's made.............The first was to join the RAF in the early 50s and the second was to leave it in the late 60s !

Fishtailed
20th Jun 2006, 23:06
OK Virgo
The Valetta, it was, at 'Weeton Camp' as we locals called it, 1962 ish.
M7469, WD168. The gate guardians werer Hunter F5 WP147, and Meteor F4 RA449. The Lincoln mentioned was RF510. I don't remember all this from when I was 12, a couple of years ago I was given a list of aircraft at Weeton in the late 50s - early 60s when I was trying to determine whether the bomber I remember there was a Stirling or not. The list makes interesting reading, it includes lists of aircraft that took part in flying displays at Battle of Britain days. The one for September 1958 includes one each of the V bombers, Javelins, Hunters, Vampire, Canberra, Meteor, Comet, Hastings, Lincoln and Shackleton, and two types I'm not farmilliar with,
3 RB66s from 10TRW Alconbury, and one KB50J from 420ARS Sculthorpe.
Can anyone enlighten me on those?
The Meteor in the other photo was at Kirkham.:ok:

RampTramp
21st Jun 2006, 03:47
Fishtailed,

and two types I'm not farmilliar with,
3 RB66s from 10TRW Alconbury, and one KB50J from 420ARS Sculthorpe.
Can anyone enlighten me on those?

RB66, recon version of the B66 twin engined bomber also know as the 'Destroyer' &
KB50J, air refuelling version of the B50 which in turn was a development (and to uneducated eyes, looked the same as) the B29

Hope that helps.

RT

Exasperated
23rd Jun 2006, 00:14
Fishtailed,
RB66, recon version of the B66 twin engined bomber also know as the 'Destroyer' &
KB50J, air refuelling version of the B50 which in turn was a development (and to uneducated eyes, looked the same as) the B29
Hope that helps.
RT

Some links to pics

Boeing KB-50J Superfortress (http://www.pimaair.org/Acftdatapics/Boeing%20KB-50J.htm)
Douglas RB-66 Destroyer (http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/rb-66.htm)

Ex

Fishtailed
24th Jun 2006, 16:24
Thanks to Ramp Tramp and Exasperated for the info.
The notes on the Battle of Britain day say of the three RB66s, 'only one seen in distance, other two missed by miles'. !! Maybe they were on a navex:rolleyes:

virgo
24th Jun 2006, 18:45
httphttp://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/Virgo_photo/turnhouse2.jpg://

Try http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/Virgo_photo/turnhouse2.jpg (http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/Virgo_photo/turnhouse2.jpg)

A little more homework on links, Virgo minor! See me after school.

virgo
26th Jun 2006, 18:29
Excellent ! How did you do that ?

Anyway, it's obviously Turnhouse, but what and when was the occasion and name the aircraft,
a) taking the pictures
b) on the ground

(I'm not going to be able to award marks 'cos I don't know the answers........I found the photo among dozens that I rescued from oblivion many years ago)

Fishtailed
26th Jun 2006, 20:50
Good photo Virgo.
I would say it's an air race (kings cup?) by the numbers, and the 'hot' looking machines at the front. Is one a Mew Gull? I recognise a Chippie at the back, and loads of Austin A30s. No motorbikes though, unusual for that era.1955 ish.

treadigraph
26th Jun 2006, 20:56
I'll take the front row as left to right, a Gemini (or Aries), the Mew Gull G-AEXF alive and well and at Breighton, Miles Sparrowjet which I think is rising Phoenix-like from the literal ashes of its demise somewhere in the UK, and the Miles Hawk Speed Six G-ADGP which also has a current CofA. Ahhhhhh..., I mean Mmmmmmmm!

(edited 'cos I can't spell "Aries")

virgo
28th Jun 2006, 20:14
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/Virgo_photo/gannets.jpg

I can't get the hang of this imaging............what do I do next ?????

virgo
28th Jun 2006, 20:21
Ah, I do believe I'm almost there ! But how do I get the picture to display on the message ?

Anyway, another photo from the same event. Submitted for those who have a greater interest in car spotting than aeroplane recognition.

No-one's identified the aircraft carrying the photographer.............( I'm pretty confident I know the answer to that one.)

Speedpig
28th Jun 2006, 21:13
Avro Anson?
Pure guess

MReyn24050
28th Jun 2006, 21:39
Ah, I do believe I'm almost there ! But how do I get the picture to display on the message ?
Anyway, another photo from the same event. Submitted for those who have a greater interest in car spotting than aeroplane recognition.
No-one's identified the aircraft carrying the photographer.............( I'm pretty confident I know the answer to that one.)

As you say almost there. Click on small image icon, small yellow square with the mountain image, and paste in your link.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/Virgo_photo/gannets.jpg

Do not think it is an Anson, I think it is an Avro Lincoln judging by the aileron cables and the soot from the exhaust over the top of the wing.
Mel

Fishtailed
28th Jun 2006, 22:01
MReyn24050, you may know this, Virgo won't. His first photo was enlargable, but the Gannets weren't, so those who 'have a greater interest in car spotting than aeroplane recognition' can't see 'em, or any motorbikes! Why is that?

MReyn24050
28th Jun 2006, 22:12
MReyn24050, you may know this, Virgo won't. His first photo was enlargable, but the Gannets weren't, so those who 'have a greater interest in car spotting than aeroplane recognition' can't see 'em, or any motorbikes! Why is that?

I assume you are referring to the different sizes of the photographs. That is because of the size he uploaded them into photobucket. The picture first picture is 614 x 474 pixels and the second Gannet picture is only 306 x 236 pixels. If your question is why no motorbikes I have no idea why. :)

Mel

virgo
29th Jun 2006, 17:48
Speedpig..........right stable but wrong horse - try again !

All this computer imaging is very tedious to the mature gentlemen who take an interest in "History and Nostalgia".
Before we even THINK of broadcasting a picture we have to tighten our trusses, ensure the pacemaker batteries are fully charged and take our anti-dyspepsia tablets.
Whatever happened to the good old epidiascopes they used to use for Target Recognition ? (At least you'd get a bit of a larf when you displayed an up-side-down Sverdlov cruiser on the screen !)

On the subject of projection - does anyone know how the WW2 air-gunner spherical concrete "simulators" worked ? (There's an intact structure on the North side of Shoreham airport)

virgo
29th Jun 2006, 17:54
Sorry Mel........just noticed your bid !
You're closer than Speedpig but still not right

MReyn24050
29th Jun 2006, 20:26
Sorry Mel........just noticed your bid !
You're closer than Speedpig but still not right
Thanks Virgo, how about an Avro Shackleton GR1?

virgo
29th Jun 2006, 20:31
Yeah, but which mark ?

MReyn24050
29th Jun 2006, 20:33
Yeah, but which mark ?
An early Mark. The M.R.1 most likely rather than the Mark 2

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/1andtwo.gif[/IMG]

virgo
29th Jun 2006, 20:55
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/Virgo_photo/Shackletonwingover.jpg

MReyn24050
29th Jun 2006, 21:02
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/Virgo_photo/Shackletonwingover.jpg
It certainly was not a Mark 3. No tip tanks on the aircraft in your original photograph Virgo.

Mel

virgo
29th Jun 2006, 21:05
Well done Mel. Actually it is a T4, which was an MR1 with extra positions for trainee radar and sonics operators.

The guess of Lincoln was closer than you think 'cos the Shackleton GR1 and MR2 actually used the Lincoln wing.

Next question - which wing did the MR3 use ?

(Photo precedes this message. I STILL can't get the B----y picture to display.
What the H--l am I doing wrong !!!!!!)

treadigraph
29th Jun 2006, 21:12
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/Virgo_photo/Shackletonwingover.jpg

I wonder if you are using the "insert link" icon (the globe with the chainlink) to post your pic rather than the "insert image" icon (mountain with stamp - well, looks like that to me!) Virgo? That might be the answer...

Treadders

PS keep the pics (or links!) coming, great stuff! I can hear those Griffons and props making that wonderful Shackleton sound! Or is it the tinitus...?

MReyn24050
29th Jun 2006, 21:18
Virgo. Possibly the wing designed for the Avro Ashton?

Regarding your difficulties in posting pictures. When you paste in the URL details into the image box, check that http:// is not entered twice. Delete the second http:// so it reads http://i74 etc. (click on the photograph treadigraph has posted and then read the properties you will see how the URL should appear)Otherwise the photograph will not appear.

Mel

virgo
1st Jul 2006, 20:24
Thanks for the posting tips.............done all that - correct "insert image" symbol, only one "URL" ...........but I'll keep trying !

Answer to the Shackleton MR3 wing..............it was actually the Argosy wing with the tip tanks added - which is maybe why the MR3s were all withdrawn before the MR2s, due to wing fatigue problems (being used in turbulent low-level conditions ????)........and of course why the older 2s were converted to AEW rather than the MR3s

shack
2nd Jul 2006, 08:00
Thank you Treadigraph for putting up a picture of MY aircraft!!

If you could see the port side just below the cockpit you would see my name.

Happy Days. :)

JW411
2nd Jul 2006, 14:05
virgo:

"It was actually the Argosy wing...."

Now that is very interesting for when I did the Argosy manufacturer's course at Baginton in 1962 with Whitworth Gloster we were told that we had a Shackleton wing!

MReyn24050
2nd Jul 2006, 14:56
virgo:
"It was actually the Argosy wing...."
Now that is very interesting for when I did the Argosy manufacturer's course at Baginton in 1962 with Whitworth Gloster we were told that we had a Shackleton wing!
Further to the debate regarding the wing of the Shackleton Mk3, Oliver Tapper in his book “Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft since 1917” published by Putnam also states that the wing of the Argosy was derived from the Shackleton.
At page 311 of Oliver Tapper’s book it states:-
“Considerable design and development time was saved by the fortuitous fact that the design parameters of the Argosy’s wing were found to be almost exactly the same as those of the existing Avro Shackleton. This basic wing design was therefore adopted for the new aircraft with such modifications as were necessary to allow for the different engine spacing, the mounting of the tail booms, the incorporation of thermal de-icing in the leading edge, and the fitting of large double-slotted flaps.”
He continues at page 315:- “The task of designing and manufacturing the Argosy was, to some extent, shared among other member companies of the Hawker Siddeley Group. As already noted the wing of the aircraft was derived from that of the Shackleton and it was, therefore, natural that the Avro Company should undertake the design and construction of this component.”
It is noted that the first M.R.3 WR970 first flew 2nd September 1955, first A.W Argosy G-AOZZ was rolled out for engine runs 21st December 1958 and flew on the 8th January 1959.
Mel

virgo
2nd Jul 2006, 19:05
Shack, unless you are Van-Warmelo ?............I think not !

virgo
2nd Jul 2006, 19:34
I must defer to MReyn..........obviously if the Shack MR3 flew some three years before the Argosy, I guess the wing was designed for the Shackleton - but at least the two aircraft types were correct !

Another similar story is that to speed up production of the Caravelle, Aerospatial bought the entire forward fuselage from DH and grafted the Comet nose onto their fuselage ?
(Please don't tell me DH bought a fuselage from Aerospatial and grafted their own fuselage onto the cockpit bit !!!!!)

But this is what A,H & N is all about, isn't it ?

MReyn24050
2nd Jul 2006, 19:42
virgo
You are a Gent. At least you did establish a link between the Shack and the Argosy. I didnt even know that they were linked it was only after JW411's comment I did some reading. As you say "But this is what A,H & N is all about, isn't it ?" It certainly is not a case of scoring points.

Regards
Mel

virgo
2nd Jul 2006, 19:44
OK, I'm trying Speechless Two's advice.................if it works, on the basis of What. Where and When, have a go at this.
The What and Where is pretty easy but the When is a bit more difficult, but I think the historians should be able to pin it down within a few years ?
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/Virgo_photo/airtoground.jpg

MReyn24050
2nd Jul 2006, 19:48
Completely a WAG but the where. RAF Ballykelly?

virgo
2nd Jul 2006, 19:52
Ballykelly................Nope !

Speechless 2................Thanks, it worked OK

treadigraph
2nd Jul 2006, 21:56
I think it's Lossiemouth with those Shacklebombers? I'll chuck a dart at the late 1950s...!

treadigraph
3rd Jul 2006, 12:26
Doh! I meant Kinloss... Honest!

shack
3rd Jul 2006, 12:46
Virgo, have a look at your PMs.

virgo
3rd Jul 2006, 20:48
Yep ! Kinloss.
A couple of interesting things......the photo shows four types of hangars - anyone know the identity of them ?

Secondly, the aircraft are either GR 1s or T4s, with no mid-upper turrets, with the post-1958 colour scheme, a squadron LETTER identification, rather than the unit number and no evidence of other squadron use of the airfield.

All rather confusing but I expect someone will be able to untangle it and place a year on it ? (My personal stab would be 1958 )

Fishtailed
5th Jul 2006, 22:31
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/fishtailed/oldjets2.jpg

Howz about this one then?:hmm:

MReyn24050
6th Jul 2006, 08:56
First thoughts RAF Linton-on -Ouse between 1953 and 1956. With 66 Sqn RAF Sabre F-4s?

JW411
6th Jul 2006, 09:13
Sabres - probably RCAF - Scottish Aviation - Prestwick.

henry crun
6th Jul 2006, 09:52
MReyn24050: If you are right what is that big white nosewheel type in the left background ?

JW411
6th Jul 2006, 09:54
It's an Old Shaky - Douglas C-124 Globemaster 2.

DH106
6th Jul 2006, 10:32
MReyn24050: If you are right what is that big white nosewheel type in the left background ?

Hmmmmm - looks like it has a mid mounted tailplane, a la Caravelle

spekesoftly
6th Jul 2006, 11:21
Ex-RCAF Sabres with Airwork at Ringway mid-fifties, prior to delivery to Greece or Turkey under Mutual Defence Aid agreements?

MReyn24050
6th Jul 2006, 11:33
Second thoughts wrong type of hangers for Linton-on-Ouse. Possibly one of the RAF German Airfields? Also judging by the tail markings there appears to be two squadrons together. I think the big white bird is too big for a Caravelle.

DH106
6th Jul 2006, 12:28
I think the big white bird is too big for a Caravelle.


Hmmmm, could well be - difficult to tell.

I see it as a Caravelle parked nose towards the hanger. The whole tail surfaces are very Caravell like - the fin curving up from a dorsal spine and the tailplane mounted part way up. The wing is also very flat with little or no dihedral like the Caravelle.

JW411
6th Jul 2006, 12:34
Well, I still see it as a C-124 parked on the north apron at Prestwick and I think I can see the unit band on the tail and the front clamshell doors open!

You will note that the ramp the Sabres are parked on is down in a dip exactly like Scottish Aviation at Prestwick. I think the hangars are still there and I think I even recognise the wall in the foreground!

MReyn24050
6th Jul 2006, 12:45
Ex-RCAF Sabres with Airwork at Ringway mid-fifties, prior to delivery to Greece or Turkey under Mutual Defence Aid agreements?

Tending to agree regarding them not being RAF aircraft, not sure about whose they are or about the location but I have done a check of the information available regarding the Squadron Markings of those Squadrons reported as operating Sabres both in the UK and in BAOR. None of those viewed had fin markings like those on the aircraft in the photograph.

However, it is reported that between 1956 and 1958, 302 ex-RAF Sabres were returned to the USAF. These planes were painted in camouflage, provided with USAF national markings and even given spurious USAF serial numbers (actually their original RCAF serials). These were assigned the designation F-86E(M) for record-keeping purposes, where the M stood for *Modified*. Could these be those aircraft awaiting shipment?

MReyn24050
6th Jul 2006, 13:23
This is a shot of the hangers at Prestwick from Google Earth. The triple hanger with the rows of skylights looks very similar to the one in the photograph.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/PrestickAirport2.jpg

DH106
6th Jul 2006, 13:57
Well, I still see it as a C-124 parked on the north apron at Prestwick and I think I can see the unit band on the tail and the front clamshell doors open!

Yes, now you mention the unit band on the tail I can see where you're comming from.

JW411
6th Jul 2006, 14:30
MReyn 24050:

Now we are getting somewhere; you have jogged my memory. The hangar complex on the left is relatively modern and was constructed for the final assembly of Jetstreams and, I think, ATPs.

On that site originally was a triple hangar complex identical to those in the centre of the photograph Those are the hangars (now demolished) that you can see in the Sabre photograph.

The Sabres are parked on the ramp above Findhorn Road and under W 4° 35' 17" which originally stretched to the right and made a triangle.

The C-124 is parked somewhere near the helicopter landing spot in the top left corner of your photo.

I wonder if the aeroplane between the C-124 and the last Sabre on the left could be a Twin Pin. The hangar on the left of the complex was known as the flight shed I think.

MReyn24050
6th Jul 2006, 15:25
Now we are getting somewhere; you have jogged my memory. The Sabres are parked on the ramp above Findhorn Road and under W 4° 35' 17" which originally stretched to the right and made a triangle.
The C-124 is parked somewhere near the helicopter landing spot in the top left corner of your photo.

Similar view but covering more ground.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/PrestwickAirfield3.jpg
Mel

MReyn24050
6th Jul 2006, 20:35
Further information regarding the Sabre Aircraft.
I found the following information in a publication issued by the CANADA AVIATION MUSEUM entitled "CANADAIR F-86 SABRE MK.6"
“444 (F) Squadron of the Royal Canadian Air Force was reformed as a fighter unit on 1 March 1953 and equipped with Sabre Aircraft and was initially based at St. Hubert, Quebec. It was the last of the fighter squadrons to be designated as part of the RCAF commitment to NATO. Accordingly, 444 (F) Squadron was to be relocated to 4 (F) Wing at Baden Soellingen, West Germany by 15 August 1953. Due primarily to weather delays, the flight overseas took place between 27 August and 3 September 1953 in Operation Leapfrog IV.
The squadron served as a fighter squadron until it was deactivated on 1 March 1963 and reformed in the nuclear strike role on 27 May 1963 equipped with CF-104 aircraft.
The squadron’s Sabre Aircraft (24 in total) were flown to Prestwick, Scotland in Operation Sal Siesta where most were ultimately scrapped. One aircraft (23455) escaped the scrap pile and ultimately became the Canada Aviation Museum’s Sabre.”

A further reference to RCAF Sabres being scrapped at Prestwick is given in 412 Squadron RCAF's history:-
"In October 1952, the Squadron again moved overseas in what was known as Operation Leap-frog II. 421, in company with 416 and 430 Squadrons, flew their single-seater Sabre jet fighters across the Atlantic to their new base at 2 Fighter Wing, Grostenquin, France. These three Souadrons thus became the first RCAF Squadrons to be stationed on the European continent since March 1946. From October 1952 to July 1963, the Squadron flew Sabres as part of 1 Air Division in support of NATO. On 31 July 1963, the Squadron held a shutdown parade and two weeks later the Sabres were flown to Prestwick, Scotland; their final resting place."
So the aircraft in the photograph could be ex RCAF aircraft.

Fishtailed
6th Jul 2006, 20:56
Well done JW411:D
Prestwick 1962-4 taken from a road. Had to get dad to stop the car seeing so many 'planes. Here' another taken at the same stop with 3 others to identify.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/fishtailed/oldplanes.jpg

Sorry about the quality, 'twas only a Brownie127:(

MReyn24050
6th Jul 2006, 21:03
So if Fishtailed said the date was 1962-64 they would most certainly have been Ex RCAF Sabres awaiting to be scrapped. almost makes them candidates for the "Saddest Looking aircraft" thread.

The other aircraft are possibly
Pembroke
Comet C.Mk2
Shackleton M.R.3

Fishtailed
6th Jul 2006, 21:10
MReyn24050, you'r right. You can just make out RCAF on the Sabres on the original photo.

MReyn24050
6th Jul 2006, 21:13
Fishtailed

And the other aircraft?

Pembroke
Comet C.Mk2
Shackleton M.R.3

Mel

PPRuNe Radar
6th Jul 2006, 21:19
Fishtailed,

Photo 2 looks like a Sea Prince, then maybe a Convair C-131, followed by C-124 Globemaster, and then a Lockheed E-121 Warning Star.

From the time when the US had a base at Prestwick, which closed in 1966 ;)

Blacksheep
7th Jul 2006, 06:37
Doh! I meant Kinloss... Honest!I doubt if you're the first who found Lossiemouth when they were really looking for Kinloss treadigraph!

On the subject of aircraft with common wings, somehow the Bristol Britannia's wings ended up on the Shorts Belfast.
But upside down, apparently...

JW411
7th Jul 2006, 09:33
As you say, the quality of the photograph is not good. I can only see three aircraft and from the left I think we have:

Grumman SA-16 Albatross, Douglas SC-54 and then the same C-124 as was shown on the original photograph.

The SA-16 and the SC-54 are probably from the resident 67th Air Rescue Squadron.

I need to get out!

MReyn24050
7th Jul 2006, 11:05
I
On the subject of aircraft with common wings, somehow the Bristol Britannia's wings ended up on the Shorts Belfast.
But upside down, apparently...
In July 1954 The Bristol Aeroplane Co became a shareholder in Short Brothers & Harland Ltd, subscribing £360,000 of additional capital to set up a second production line for the Brittania at Queen's Island Belfast. O.R.323 had been issued by the Air Staff for a medium-range freighter for R.A.F. transport Command. Both Bristol and Shorts explored the possibility of fully exploiting the Brittania wing and power plant in a high-wing freighter with either nose or tail loading by ramp from ground level these projects being Bristol Type 195 and Short P.D.18. Bristol and Shorts had already agreed to co-ordinate their planning of future projects to avoid wasteful competition. As a result it was agreed that the Short's proposal should proceed in preference to Bristol's.
In March 1959 the Brittanic 3A was proposed to meet the Air Staff's requirements this proposal used the standard Brittania wings bolted to a parallel-chord centre-section of 16ft 6in in span built into the top of the fuselage, thus increasing increasing the wing area to 2,454 sq ft and moving all the nacelles outboard by 8ft 3in; the inner nacelles were moved 4ft back towards the wing roots thus creating the opportunity to fit larger airscrews at a later date if needed.
In April 1959 the name Brittanic was dropped in favour of the name Belfast.Several major components were sub-contracted, the rear fuselage and loading ramp to Saunders-Roe, power plant installation to Vickers-Armstrong in view of the similarity to the existing design for the Vanguard.
The design and manufacture of the Belfast wing was assigned to Bristol aircraft Ltd.

virgo
7th Jul 2006, 15:29
This adoption of different chunks of aeroplanes is quite interesting - just like I used to do with my Keil Kraft models.........attach the most serviceable wings onto the best fuselage, fish around in the box for some wheels that fitted, hang an engine on the front and let's see what happens ! I never thought that's what Bristol and Vickers and Glosters and Handley-Page and De-Havilland and Avro and.................I've even forgotten some of the names now.

Didn't the Vickers Attacker have a Spiteful wing and tail assembly ?

treadigraph
7th Jul 2006, 15:40
How about another pic? (but carry on the discussion!).

What and where should be easy - when is more difficult, though I reckon I know roughly...

http://www.tpsconsult.co.uk/dump/images/www.jpg

MReyn24050
7th Jul 2006, 16:04
As you say, the quality of the photograph is not good. I can only see three aircraft and from the left I think we have:
Grumman SA-16 Albatross, Douglas SC-54 and then the same C-124 as was shown on the original photograph.
The SA-16 and the SC-54 are probably from the resident 67th Air Rescue Squadron.
I need to get out!
Isnt the aircraft on the extreme right a Lockheed Super Constellation WV-2, known as "Warning Star"?
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/141311-Aug02-2.jpg
Reference to these visiting Prestwick can be seen in the following extract.
From an article "Guarding the Cold War Ramparts. The U.S. Navy’s Role in Continental Air Defense by Captain Joseph F. Bouchard, U.S. Navy.
"After the GIUK Barrier replaced the Atlantic Barrier, WV-2s would deploy to Keflavik for two weeks, typically logging about a hundred flight hours each during seven or eight arduous barrier patrols. They returned to Argentia
for four weeks of aircraft maintenance, crew rest, and training. The weather in Keflavik was no better than in Argentia, but the pilots were well trained in foul-weather operations and rarely missed a mission for that reason. When conditions at Keflavik fell below minimums, the Willie Victors normally diverted to Prestwick, Scotland."
Mel

JW411
7th Jul 2006, 17:37
MReyn 24050:

Well, I can see a dark blob on my computer to the right of the C-124 but I can't even recognise it as an aircraft so I really cannot comment.

As you say, WV-2s were common visitors to Prestwick.

Do you know what a WV-1 was? In fact, there were only two of them built and both of them used to visit Prestwick (originally as PO-1Ws and then as WV-1s when they were re-designated).

We used to call them "giraffe freighters" (you could just about imagine the giraffe having his feet in the lower radome and his head in the upper)!

MReyn24050
7th Jul 2006, 21:49
Didn't the Vickers Attacker have a Spiteful wing and tail assembly ?
The Supermarine Attacker certainly had the Spiteful wing which was the Type 371 laminer flow wing with the radiators removed and replaced by fuel tanks but retaining the four 20 mm cannon. however the tail unit was completely different.
Mel

MReyn24050
8th Jul 2006, 08:05
[QUOTE=treadigraph]How about another pic? (but carry on the discussion!).
What and where should be easy - when is more difficult, though I reckon I know roughly...

RAF Shawbury? The taxi grid looks similar to that near Matthew's Coppice Quite a few aircraft there. Victors, Vulcans, Argosy, Brittania, Shackleton (less enines) and many smaller aircraft. When? Between 1982 and 1984 perhaps.

JW411
8th Jul 2006, 10:49
treadigraph:

Well your one is quite definitely the Fire School at RAF Manston. I can see 1 Britannia, 1 Argosy, 3 Victors, 2 Vulcans, 1 Shackleton, 1 Viscount, 4 Helicopters (1 Wessex, 3 Whirlwinds?), 1 Vampire, 1 Meteor (with tail broken off), 1 Hunter, 2 aircaft on the right (one with a wing off) which look like they could be Devons or Herons and what I think is the remains of a JP just off the fire training area.

I think the Argosy might be XN855 which went to Manston on 3.8.77 so I would guess that the photograph was taken around 1980.

JW411
8th Jul 2006, 12:49
I've got interested in this one so I have done some more research. The Viscount is ex-Alidair G-BDRC and that didn't get to Manston until 05/86. Wrecks and Relics No.11 tells us that it is upside down by 11/87 which it isn't on the photograph.

I think the Shackleton is WL741 which is reported as perished by Late/87.

I think the three Victors are XH590, XH616 and XL511. XL511 arrived on 2/7/86.

I therefore revise my estimate as to when the photograph was taken to between 07/86 and 11/87. The corn stubble in the field suggests autumn but it could be either one.

By the way, I think the two Vulcans are XL386 and XM657.

MReyn24050
8th Jul 2006, 14:33
JW411
Great information and congrats on your research.

I think the Shackleton is WL741 which is reported as perished by Late/87.

Just for information sake. From http://users.bigpond.net.au/Shackleton/marktwo.html it is also known that Shackleton WL739 MR2 was originally allotted to Catterick but the allotment was cancelled and the aircraft delivered to Manston for Fire Fighting training. How long it lasted is anyones guess.
WL741 also a MR2 was withdrawn from use early 1981 and allocated to the Central Training Establishment, Manston. Flown to Manston 29.5.81 and allotted maintenance serial 8692M. Stripped of engines and other equipment during June.81 and then quickly cremated. As you say possibly at the Fire school.
If your date of the photograph is correct then it is possibly WL739.

Mel

JW411
8th Jul 2006, 16:18
The trouble is that I do not have Wrecks & Relics 7, 8, 9, and 10 so I have no information on WL739.

Air-Britain have it as "SOC 17.11.71; to Manston for fire practice". If it got there at the end of 1971 it is rather unlikely that it would still be there in 1986/1987.

tornadoken
8th Jul 2006, 16:26
Resident 67ARS SA-16B Albatross and SC-54D, transit C-124A Glob and US Army AO-1 Mohawk.

MReyn24050
8th Jul 2006, 16:49
The trouble is that I do not have Wrecks & Relics 7, 8, 9, and 10 so I have no information on WL739.
Air-Britain have it as "SOC 17.11.71; to Manston for fire practice". If it got there at the end of 1971 it is rather unlikely that it would still be there in 1986/1987.

Agreed.

Mel

Fishtailed
8th Jul 2006, 16:57
I've dug up aclearer print of the four aircraft at Prestwick, that reveals a fifth!
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/fishtailed/prestwick1.jpg

MReyn24050
8th Jul 2006, 17:17
Fishtailed

Well that photograph at least confirms, I think, that the aircraft to the left of the C-124 are in fact an Albatross and C-54D. Not sure about the newcomer to the right of the C-124 but I think it is a Twin Pioneer and it also confirms my thoughts regarding the extreme aircraft being a WV-2.
Mel

Kieron Kirk
8th Jul 2006, 17:19
W&R 5 reports that WL739 had expired by 3/75.
Kieron.

MReyn24050
8th Jul 2006, 17:23
W&R 5 reports that WL739 had expired by 3/75.
Kieron.
Thanks Kieron any thoughts which Shackleton in the photograph is it WL741?

Kieron Kirk
8th Jul 2006, 17:33
WL741 was an AEW.2(take your pick from "C" or "phase 3") if that helps-similar colours to an MR variety?

Incidentaly WL739 was a T.2 !

Kieron.




No comments on the identity of the Britannia yet, that might get us a bit nearer to the date of the photo.
I am about to raid my collection of W&R (yes I have1-19, just do not ask how much I paid for a reprint of W&R 1 !

Kieron Kirk
8th Jul 2006, 17:55
W&R10 reveals the Britannia to be G-ANCF, placed in the fire pit area sometime in 1984, but taken to the civvy(ugh-sorry while I clear my throat) side by 6/85. It later went to Brooklands in 1988.

Kieron.





W&R is a bit vague as to the arrival date of Viscount G-BDRC, "arr. by 11/84".
Photo date, mid 84 to mid 85.

JW411
9th Jul 2006, 14:50
This is getting more curious by the minute. Air-Britain BCAR quotes Viscount G-BDRC as being WFU at Exeter 09.10.84 and then to the Fire School at Manston 05/86. Now that can't be true if Britannia G-ANCD returned to the civil side by 06/85 for they are both quite clearly in the photograph together.

So if Air-Britain are wrong and W&W 10 is right and G-BDRC arrived by 11/84 then the photograph has to be between 11/84 and 06/85.

That seems to be pretty conclusive until we get back to the corn field!

Now I am no farmer but is June not a bit early to have a corn field in stubble?

tornadoken
9th Jul 2006, 16:02
Calculations in the Manchester Design Record were drawn upon for Lanc, York, Lincoln, Tudor, Ashton, Canada Jetliner, Shack, Argosy. Airfoils and load paths diverged as planforms and dimensions varied.
This wing must have conveyed more power eggs than any other, counting the Test Beds. Was Shack MR.3 Phase 3 UK's sole 6-engined type? (boost Vipers. Saro Princess had 10 engines in 6 nacelles).
FG Miles' grafted wings were H.D.M.105, to SC.7 Skyvan, and FFA P-16, which he helped put on Learjet. Avro paid royalties pre-war for Anson's wing, derived from Fokker F.VII; all (Taylorcraft/UK) Austers to 1946 paid royalty to Taylorcraft/US. Were these the same wing? Was My Sweet Lord, He's So Fine?

treadigraph
10th Jul 2006, 04:40
Doing better than me chaps - I had assumed it was about 1982! There's no date on the back of the pic, but I will ask the guy who gave it to me if he knows any more.

MReyn24050
10th Jul 2006, 15:15
I am sure the experts will have no toruble with this shot.Where and When?
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/MysteryPic7.jpg

Kieron Kirk
10th Jul 2006, 15:47
EGWX !

1963.






Ah. ICAO location indicator. That will get all you keen types reaching for a dog-eared ERS!

MReyn24050
10th Jul 2006, 16:56
Kieron Kirk

You are one year out Kieron. Right area I believe, not that I am that familiar with Northwood.

JW411
10th Jul 2006, 17:28
I would think that if a Mosquito landed at Northwood it would have made the papers. Do you perhaps mean Northolt?

Kieron Kirk
10th Jul 2006, 17:38
Bovingdon.








633 Sqdn filming of . Alright 1964 then!

MReyn24050
10th Jul 2006, 18:26
Kieron

:) It is the right answer, as for the date I thought it was 1962 but you may well be correct. It was the filming of 633 squadron.

Mel

Speedpig
10th Jul 2006, 23:25
I was at school in Bovingdon during the making of 633 Squadron and reckon it was 1963..... possibly.
Some great aerial treats overhead the playground.

chevvron
11th Jul 2006, 06:59
I was an ATC cadet visiting Bovingdon several times during the filming. We'd already had 'The War Lover' filmed with B17's a couple of years previously, so the pleasure of multiple Merlins was superb! I vaguely recall only 4 airframes were airworthy although they had 12 there, one being written off by John Crewdson deliberately retracting the gear on the ground to simulate a crash landing.
A few years later ('68) we had 'Mosquito Squadron' and part of the 'Battle of Britain' simultaneously filmed there!

MReyn24050
11th Jul 2006, 08:19
I would think that if a Mosquito landed at Northwood it would have made the papers. Do you perhaps mean Northolt?

JW411

I was not referring to Northwood as being the location shown in the photograph but to the ICAO code that Kieron quoted i.e. EGWX which was and probably still is for Northwood (MOD).

Mel

JW411
11th Jul 2006, 09:46
MReyn24050:

Sorry; I misunderstood what you were saying. EGWX is indeed Northwood (MOD) and it would be difficult to land a Mosquito in a bunker!

chevvron
11th Jul 2006, 10:08
EGWX was Bovingdon until it closed in '78.

JW411
11th Jul 2006, 10:11
Ach so! All is revealed.

Nogbad the Bad
11th Jul 2006, 11:08
May I play, please ? :)
http://www.donz.nildram.co.uk/270271.jpg

Speedpig
11th Jul 2006, 11:09
It was definitely 1964.
I was trying to relate it to where I was prior to England winning the World Cup (oh, yes they did!) in '66.
Such a long time ago it's difficult to remember (and I was on a night shift last night)

Speedpig
11th Jul 2006, 11:20
Dreadful waste.
Are they all the same? I think I spot Fairey Fireflys in there?

Nogbad the Bad
11th Jul 2006, 11:26
Yep, mark Vs, and a year previous to this photo they still had the engines attached.

The sad thing is that this photo was taken as late as 1971 ! :{

jabberwok
12th Jul 2006, 01:11
I was going to suggest Staravia at Lasham but I don't recall Firefly airframes there. They had plenty of Sea Hawk and Sea Fury bits though.

Nogbad the Bad
12th Jul 2006, 07:40
Jabberwok, these were at International Alloys in Aylesbury. I can't remember seeing any Fireflies at Lasham, but there were quite a few Sea Furies there, including one almost complete TT fuselage - I've got a photo somewhere.

tornadoken
12th Jul 2006, 13:52
The Aylesbury pile had no engines in 1963. Are they Dutch?

jabberwok
12th Jul 2006, 16:21
but there were quite a few Sea Furies there, including one almost complete TT fuselage

It was WE825, a TT20. That was in June 1970. Also noted on the airfield was XJ470, an A&AEE Bristol Freighter and 9V-BAS, G-ATAB Dan Air's DC7B, and a Singapore Airline Comet 4B.

Nogbad the Bad
12th Jul 2006, 20:26
Thanks for that Jabber :ok:

The first shows the Fireflies (ex RN, tornadoken, but I am not sure of their origin ?), the second is the TT20 fuselage at Lasham. Both taken in summer 1970, and apologies for the quality they are from an Instamatic with Boot's film :eek:

http://www.donz.nildram.co.uk/70F19_Aylesbury.jpg

http://www.donz.nildram.co.uk/70G25_Lasham.jpg

I also have some more of the Staravia Sea Fury (bits) if anyone would like them posted (and Hunter bits and Sabre bits) ? I don't want to hog !!

Speedpig
12th Jul 2006, 21:43
It's too depressing to see them in that condition.

Fishtailed
12th Jul 2006, 21:57
Try this one for where and when as we have had some Mossie interest.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f280/fishtailed/mosquito2.jpg

rodthesod
13th Jul 2006, 01:14
1944 West Malling?

jabberwok
13th Jul 2006, 03:54
605 Squadron with that code..

1943 or 1944. I'd guess Bradwell Bay or Manston.

Kieron Kirk
13th Jul 2006, 07:36
4 Sqdn badge on fin. 605 Sqdn reformed as 4 Sqdn at Volkel 1st September 1945.

MReyn24050
13th Jul 2006, 12:16
Shortly after VE Day, on the 31st August 1945, No 4 Sqn disbanded, so bringing to an end an unbroken career stretching over twenty-six years. However on this day No.605 Squadron ‘County of Warwick’ was renumbered No.IV (AC) Squadron; the role of the Squadron changed from Photographic Reconnaissance to Light Bomber and was equipped with FB VI. It was in this role that the Squadron celebrated its first peacetime New Year at Gutersloh. It was from 605 squadron that the code UP came from.
In September 1947, the Squadron sent four aircraft to Udine in Italy to join a detachment which was to cover the evacuation of British troops from Pola, a town at the southern extremity of the Istrian peninsula in the Adriatic Sea. The peninsula was to be handed over to Yugoslavia, and Pola was to be evacuated by the British as a result. The impatient Yugoslavs however, moved in overnight prior to the agreed date of handover which necessitated a more rapid exit by the British garrison than had been anticipated. The evacuation was a success in spite of this, and all troops embarked on Royal Navy ships without major incident. Instead of covering the evacuation, the detachment formed
part of a formation of twelve aircraft which flew over Trieste, still a British responsibility, where rioting had broken out. This show of force, flown at first light on 16 September, was to continue throughout the day and until the following day when the situation was brought under control. The Detachment left Italy on 18 September for Gutersloh.
.
After two years at Gutersloh it was time to move again, this time to Wahn. On the 18 September 1949 the Squadron flew to its new base at Celle where it was to remain for less than a year before moving to Wunstorf on 10 July 1950. The Squadron, almost immediately after arriving, started converting to Vampire FB V's. The Squadron's last move was to Jever where it arrived on 1 March 1952.
So the location where the photograph was taken could be at several places and between Aug 1945 and 1952. Although I would go for Gutersloh.

My Dad's Little Boy
13th Jul 2006, 15:24
I would say that photo was taken post 1948 judging by the roundels and fin flash.

henry crun
14th Jul 2006, 09:47
Clearing out an old album the other day and I found this photo.
I have no recollection of taking it or where I took it; the best I can offer is possibly Woodvale about 1957.

Can any of you experts offer any suggestions ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v712/crun9/Spit.jpg

Kieron Kirk
14th Jul 2006, 13:10
Air Britain RAF Aircraft SA100-VZ999.

Spitfire XVI TE400. 501 Sqdn, 612 Sqdn, FCCRS (Fighter Command Control and Reporting School). Became 7240M on the 28th September 1955.

FCCRS redesignated the School of Control and Reporting on the 16th March 1953 at Middle Wallop. Flying elements transfered to 288 Sqdn (Balliols Chipmunks and Ansons).

Where did TE400 become 7240M ?

FCCRS used the code 3L- up to April 1951.

jabberwok
14th Jul 2006, 18:46
Didn't Woodvale have a Spitfire in the Met Flight until the late 1950's or early 1960's? I think John Formby was one of the pilots.

MReyn24050
17th Jul 2006, 21:38
Any idea where and when?
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/mystrypic10-1.jpg

JW411
18th Jul 2006, 11:43
Let's start off with a wild guess. Is that the Wrekin in the background? If so we might be at Atcham which had P-47s in 1944.

MReyn24050
18th Jul 2006, 12:32
Let's start off with a wild guess. Is that the Wrekin in the background? If so we might be at Atcham which had P-47s in 1944.

Got in one.:D

Mel

JW411
18th Jul 2006, 17:11
Sorry about that but I did think that the Wrekin was a giveaway. Having trained at Ternhill (more than 45 years ago) I have seen the Wrekin from many angles!

Can I call the rest of it "intelligent guesswork"?

MReyn24050
19th Jul 2006, 19:15
Now that we know the source of the photographs, life won't be such fun!!


Not sure what you mean by that statement. Please elucidate.

Mel

MReyn24050
20th Jul 2006, 11:17
JENKINS

Being the zealous type then you will have seen this:-
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Zeals061.jpg
Mel

JW411
23rd Jul 2006, 19:10
JENKINS:

Sorry for the delay but I actually had to work this weekend.

In my time at Ternhill (1960) we only used Chetwynd for low approaches and I never did actually land there. It might have had something to do with winter time and soft grass?

I did my first solo on the Piston Provost at High Ercall which was our main relief landing ground.

We also used the disused airfields at Hinstock and Peplow for PFLs (practice forced landings) without actually landing of course.

Curiously enough I never went to Sleap which was the relief landing ground for the ATC School at Shawbury (Provosts and Vampires).