Career as a pilot!

[Sainty43]

Hi guys,

Ok i've got a few questions to ask so if you would take time out of your busy schedules it would be much appreciated!

I'm currently just completing my PPL and I know that what I want to do for a living is to fly! I'm also stuck in a pretty dead-end job so am looking at my options. Now one thing that strikes me is to join the RAF as a pilot.

Only problem is my qualifications are'nt up to scratch. Now I want to go back to college to polish up my GCSE's and get a couple of A-levels. I'm 19 so time is running out (cutout 23) but I beleive if you want something badly enough and put the work in anything is possible!

Question is will the fact that I had to go back to college to get my qualifications hold me back? Also if I join as a pilot how likely is it that I will become one?

Many thanks for reading this, any comments welcome!

Sainty

[helo425]

In a nut shell going back to college will in no way hold you back or be held against you.

Unfortunatly the odds are always going to be against you in becomming an RAF Pilot. ie a shrinking air force, less aircraft equals less opportunities. Also still lots of young bright kids still out there still competing for those slots. Additionally selection tough, training long and tough.

That said still one of the best jobs in the world for a young single guy and if you dont try then you will probably always wonder.:ok:

[airborne_artist]

Don't forget that the Royal Navy should (Gordon willing) be expanding their pilot force at a very fast rate in the next three years to gear up for the F-35. A dark blue suit will have the advantage of not being confused for RAC or ambulance staff, plus your accomodation will take you to all the best resorts on the way to the real fighting.

Fly Navy, eat Cr_b

[JAG3]

What academic qualifications have you got? Not being nosy but essential for compitition wise on joining as military aircrew.

[raytofclimb]

Do it, ASAP, or you'll spend your life wondering.

Bear in mind that the type of flying you'll be doing as a military pilot will not be like tootling around in your cessna. You'll work long hours, planning missions that you'll be so wrapped up in that the view out the window (in the aesthetic sense) is way down your list; you'll be looking for people trying to shoot you down or crash into you (ask a recently bed ridden turkish F-16 pilot) while looking for your target/LZ/friendlies/tanker etc.

Yes most of the people on this forum whinge about the job, I do too, but lets face it, if it was that bad we'd all leave. I talk-the-talk all the time but the pay is good and I haven't got enough hours to go to the airlines. Yet.

The truth is, we forget what its like to not be able to do the job and get blase about it. The every-day takes over; same-old same-old. Oh, hang on thats same old 250' 540kts (not for bombers!) over Wales, going supersonic, rolling inverted at 40 nose-up looking all the way up the coast, air combat, getting gunned by real fighters*. Who else can do that? Bizarrely, its more fun thinking back over it, than it was at the time- see first paragraph.

Thats the training though. Training to get sent so some A***-hole corner of the world to project foreign policy; then it's not so good- hence we all whinge.

None of us are conscripted and I know I'll be ready to leave when the time is up so don't listen to all the moaners here. Its probably because we don't have a "Professional Pilots Big Themselves And Their Jobs UP" Forum that you don't hear of all the good things that we should all sit back and think of.

Oh, and if you fail OASC, you could always FLY NAVY!

I'm going for a cigar now.

Ray

*(soz- gp2/3 mates insert your own fun trips)

[VigilantPilot]

As said above, you need to seriously consider whether you want to fly or fly as a pilot and an officer in the RAF.

Bear in mind that thousands of people apply every year to become a pilot. Competition is very fierce. You will need to work very hard to get in. It sounds as if your academics are not strong at the moment, so go and get the qualifications to the best of your ability - the maths and science subjects are favoured. There will be lots of applicants that are extremely qualified, so to maximise your chances, you'll have to show strengths in other areas too. Your motivation for joining will be examined, so you need to prove that you have wanted to fly in the RAF for a long time. If you are not already, think about working with Air Cadets - maybe as a CI. You need to maximise your exposure to the RAF. Also try to get involved with projects/expeditions/adventure training etc.

As for the question about the chances of becoming a pilot once you have joined. If you have been selected, then the board has placed a certain confidence (on your ability, motivation and work ethic) that you will achieve it. That said, I know a lot of old friends who ended up getting chopped or left of their own accord. More so than I imagined at the start of training.

[Busta]

Used to be the best fun you could have with your trousers on, dunno what it's like nowadays.

Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.

[rafloo]

Don't forget that the Royal Navy You'll be lucky to Join the RN as a Pilot....were absolutely toppers with them at the moment. So full of them that we are cross training pilots to be Observers.

Volunteer as an Observer and they'll bite yer hand off....

[scottishbeefer]

rafloo - what utter manure! However concur that anyone would be lucky to join the nations's premier air farce.

[rafloo]

Whats manure? The fact that the Lynx force is overborne with Pilots and are re-treading 3 of them to be Observers? Sorry my friend...its gospel.

[fatlad]

Whats manure? The fact that the Lynx force is overborne with Pilots and are re-treading 3 of them to be Observers? Sorry my friend...its gospel.

The guys that are being re-treaded, is this post wings or after being chopped from 702? It's quite normal for people who fail pilot training to get offered observer at NARB, isn't this just the case with these people?

[VigilantPilot]

I'd also heard a recent rumour that Observers who cross over to Pilot and subsequently fail to achieve single seat recommends are going back to being Observer and not offered rotary.

[rafloo]

The first group of pilots who are being re-treaded are very much post wings....over 3000 - 4000 hours type guys. One is a 21/2 and the others are Lts The next batch may be more junior. The RN is desperately short of Observers...somewhere in the region of 30-35% gapped. Critical shortness....which is why the extreme measures of retreading experienced pilots to be Observers is taking place.

[scottishbeefer]

rafloo - are you telling me that the NavSec agreed that 3 x 3000hr+ pilots would be allowed to change specialisation? (and more importantly the pilots agreed?!!!) Are these FTRS types hanging on in there or blokes still on CC/FTC?

[Tourist]

Rafloo.
3000 4000 hrs on lynx makes the pilot about 45 yrs old.
Methinks you talk cr@p

[rafloo]

Think the first chap to start training is older than that actually. The process has been given the go ahead from VL....just waiting for fleet to endorse it and its chocks away (so to speak)

They are all FTC guys. (Not sure the appointer would let a CC bloke go)

I didn't say they had 3000-4000 hours on Lynx.

[Tourist]

Prey tell what nature of foul photos does the appointer hold over these pilots to coerce them to do something so peculiar?

[rafloo]

I think (not sure) the plan is to populate the new 809 NAS....

The first "pilot" is destined to be the first "Sobs" of 809 - how wierd is that

[Hoop Stress]

I think my Universal translator has just packed in.

[noonoos]

Just to get back to the point of the original thread, there's no reason why you shouldn't aim high Sainty, but you've got a massive uphill struggle ahead. Unfortunately for you, there are plenty of kids out there who are sh*t hot and brainy as anything who nailed their qualifications first time, and a lot of them would kill for the job. Basically you're going to be at a bit of a disadvantage because of your age and that you failed to reach the standards first time. But that by no means makes in unachievable.

If you decide to do it (and my in my limited experience I'd say the job is awesome) you'll really need to prove to the RAF or RN that they need you.

Noos

[maccer82]

First of all do you want to be an officer or just a pilot? The air force and royal navy will consider you as an officer applicant first, therfore needing the 5 GCSEs and 2 A levels or equivalent before you even apply. Otherwise Have you thought about the AAC? There is an option of Sgt pilot (generally more flying than the officer equivalent, which you will also need the required potential officer qualifications) which you are eligable until the age of 32 (compared to the RAF equivalent of 23, RN 26 and AAC officer 29), which you can have with no qualifications, just a minimum of 3 years of service in any regiment of the army, which is probably a similar amount of time as re-sitting your exams. You will also avoid the sh*te involved in being an officer. Of course this is assuming fast jet flying is not on your agenda. This option also avoids the killing fields of OASC, AIB and RCB, where the subject of enjoying flying is the ultimate taboo! If you fancy the officer life though, the RN is probably the way to go, as they need good officers and pilots (note the order they are in) more than the air force, and there is no option of getting stuck on VC10's and Tristars (apologies to any pilots stuck on those two types who actually enjoy it)! Whatever you think 19 is still young, as the RAF is not the only option, i have friends who had no qualifications decide at a much later age that they want to be military pilots and worked hard to get where they are now.
Good luck

Mac

[Sainty43]

Royal Navy? Never really thought about that?

Are the entry requirements exactly the same? And the cut-off age 26? Are the RN looking for more pilots than the RAF??

Maccer82 why do you recommend the RN?

Many thanks

Sainty

[maccer82]

The entry requirments of 5 GCSE's, including maths, english and a science and 2 A-levels of you choice are the same in all the forces. The medical requirements are slightly less stringent (eyesight and any history of hayfever etc.). And you have until your 26th birthday to be at Dartmouth.

Probably worth going for at the moment because a fair share of the 150 JSF will be headin the dark blues way (assuming FW is what you fancy). However be prepared to be a rotary pilot if you do apply, as it is mainly a rotary force. I have also heard someone in recruiting mention that they are 'desperate' for aircrew (pilots and observers). You only need to look at some of Si Click's recent posts on this forum to realise that.

Good luck.
Mac

[Up & Away]

Was told recently that academic requirement is measured on a 'points' system and not that high. Scale of points given for each grade at the A level subject taken. I understand you can get the points required by doing well after your first year A levels ie A/S level.
I enjoyed being a pilot in Both RAF And RN. Its the service life that is enjoyable not wether you sit or stand for the toast.

[theedmancometh]

Does anyone know the reason why the age cutoff dates are so low for the RAF & RN? The cutoffs for Pilot aren't nearly as tight in the Australasian armed forces.

[Fanois]

I'm just in the pilot grading phase with the RN. PM me with any questions, but don't be put off by any comments that suggest that high competition should stop you from applying. A guy on my course (pilot) has two D's at A-level, and a lot of my friends in the RAF (pilots) failed a year at university. Yes, competition's tough, but that's because it's a fantastic job - any fantastic job will involve beating a crowd. At 19 you've got oddles of time, just get on with it.

Good luck, it took me 3 attempts.

Fanois

[Greenleader]

Does anyone know the reason why the age cutoff dates are so low for the RAF & RN? The cutoffs for Pilot aren't nearly as tight in the Australasian armed forces.
A 26 Year old entrant will take on average 4 years to get front line - makes him a 30 year old rookie. Flying on operations is a young man's game, particularly single seat fast jet, and at 30 you aint that!!. Hence the not unrealistic age limits, IMHO.
Can't explain why the Aussies have a higher limit. Maybe they don't mind on older pilot :} or maybe they have more younger applicants and can afford to take the odd old fart. ;)
Getting back to the thread - go for it. Aim for the top, and even if you get part way there you are doing better than the rest.
PS - and by the top, I dont mean the Crabs ;)

[Gingerbread Man]

Oh, and if you fail OASC, you could always FLY NAVY!


I don't imagine you're wrong, considering you do this for a living, but I was put under the impression that all forces aircrew went through OASC. Is this not the case? (Only asking because he's now wondering if he'll pass the Navy height limits).

Apologies for drifting.

Ginger ;)

[Wannabe Flyboy]

I don't imagine you're wrong, considering you do this for a living, but I was put under the impression that all forces aircrew went through OASC. Is this not the case? (Only asking because he's now wondering if he'll pass the Navy height limits).
Apologies for drifting.
Ginger ;)

The Navy's equivalent of OASC is called AIB - Admiralty Interview Board. Basically, it's the same sort of thing but with a more nautical theme. Also - as far as I know - RAF applicants sit their aptitude tests during their OASC while RN applicants take them separately.

[737-900wanabee]

Ive just read this thread, and i saw someone say that the RN medical requirements are lower than the RAF ones. Whats is the RN's position on someone who had asthma?? :confused: Is it exactly the same as the RAF ; basically NO??

Regards

[JAG3]

Whats your story wanabee?
I had it when i was 8 but never received any symptons or had an attack, i then went to a specialist 2 years ago who said that i dont have it but it is still down on my records so im now fighting to get that misdiagnosed. Im hoping for raf wso, again does anyone know the navy solution for me cos my afco didnt know what the navy requirements are regarding navy aircrew.

[737-900wanabee]

Hi,

Well i had diagonised at three (ish). Ive never had an attack or been held back in sports always kept up with people etc. I saw a specialist about 14months ago, who said i ddnt have any syptoms and im clear of any asthma although he could not comment on my previous history. (been off inhalers for 6-7yrs, but never needed those either, as i often lost or ddnt use them)

Before i went to a speicalist I spoke to RAF careers who gave a form to fill out, it went to OASC, but got a reply from them saying i was unfit for any aircrew jobs.

I have recently sat my CAA class one medical (a few months ago), and have no limitations on it. So with the RAF rejecting me i plan to go to a FTO and be an airline pilot next year.

Regards

[anotherchopride?!]

Apologies that there are 4 comments/ questions responded to here - please find your relevant answers.

Firstly, I agree that at 19 you def have a LOT of time to get your academic quals in order to go for an Officer aircrew job so if you do really want it then go for it.

Secondly, The Navy does operate a different policy to the RAF. It's medical requirements are also less stringent but if you do have any 'defects'(sorry!) of a medical nature, each case is looked at on an individual basis. One of my oppo's was born with a heart defect which hasn't affected him for about 24 years (since he was 3), the RAF wouldn't take him, the Navy has....

Thirdly, Navy is (I believe) currently recruiting Aircrew, not Pilots and Observers. (Fanois, please correct me if this is wrong). So you apply for aircrew, go to AIB, join Dartmouth and then do both pilot and observer grading before being streamed one way or the other.

Lastly, both NZ and Aussie have do indeed have older cut-off ages for Pilot recruitment. From what I can gather from my time with the RNZAF/ Navy both countries are having such a hard time recruiting that they have simply had to widen the net.

Hope this helps....

[JAG3]

What did you mean about a heart defect? i have a minor heart murmur but have found on other sites that as long as its minor i shoudnt have any problem, and also the specialist at my hospital also said life in the raf would be fine because its so minor.I then rang my AFCO who said that it doesnt automatically ban you from aircrew but it will be looked at.

[Sainty43]

Wow this thread has really opened my eyes!

First of all thanks to everyone's who took time to reply!

Right I have a few more questions!

Basically I have rang my local AFCO about joining the RAF as a pilot and with the qualifications I have at present and my age he said that it would be very hard for me to acheive but is still possible!

Now the Navy route sounds very interesting! The qualifications I have got unfortunately are;

1 GCSE C grade in English
6 GCSE D grades!! (so close!!)
No A Levels

Now I'm not a stupid person I just never enjoyed school! Now if I went back to college to get my GCSE's and A-levels (not sure exactly how long this takes) what would be my next steps in joining the Navy as a pilot?

anotherchopride?! you mentioned the navy is currently recruiting aircrew, not pilot's! If I joined the Navy as aircrew would I be able to train as a pilot later on?? Are the navy going to be recruiting pilots in the near future?

Thanks for taking time out to read my long post! And sorry for all the questions that may seem very obvious to you but I really dont know how navy recruitment works!

Thanks again and any replies welcome!

Sainty:)

[JAG3]

I personally think you are wasting your time, even if you enhanced your grades a bit you would still have little chance, i got 7B's,1 C and 1 A (presently doing AS exams) and im starting to get worried if theyre good enough for the high level of compitition in raf aircrew. By reading your post it sounds like this is a phase your going through and not proper dedication. Ive been wanting RAF aircrew since i saw the red arrows at 10. I recommend you seriously think about the implications of aircrew life and also dont niavely think you going to be a pilot.

[airborne_artist]

Sainty

Aircrew means pilot or observer - the Navy will select/stream according to its needs once training has commenced. Previously people joined already knowing whether they would train as a pilot or as an observer.

You need 140 UCAS points (3 x A-levels, equiv to 2 Ds and and an E at A2, or 3 Bs at AS, but check), minimum.

If you start in September 2006 you'll get A-level grades in August 2008. The RN currently accepts entrants under 26 on date of joining for officer aircrew, but remember that your application won't go far until you have grades, and could then take 6 months or more. If you are 19 as your profile says then you have time, but you need to do a shed-load of work, and be able to pass the aptitude as well as officer selection.

I'm not convinced that the RN's medical standards are lower, and it's possible that the aptitude standard is higher/more challenging, as you need a Pilot and an Observer pass, whereas in the past you only needed a pass for your chosen route. The RAF does not require both Pilot and Weapons Officer passes for its officer aircrew

[Sainty43]

Ok Jag3 thanks for the honest reply!

First of all I've wanted to be a pilot since the age of 3 when my parents used too take me to the end of RAF Wyton to watch the aircraft take-off! As soon as I was old enough I took my PPL and am now considering which path to take!

Secondly you are wrong about it being just a phase it's just I've only started looking in to becoming a pilot in the millitary! I've looked into joing the Raf as a pilot from about 15 but because someone once told me I would'nt have a cat in hell's cahnce because so many people apply so I dismissed the idea (stupidly)

Sainty43

[Sainty43]

airborne_artist thanks for the reply!

What sort of a-levels would I need to take??

Also what GCSE's would I need to get a place on an A-levels course??
(if you know that is)

Many thanks

Sainty

[JAG3]

Sorry if you found it insulting its just your posts make you sound like you have absolutely no knowledge of the raf or navy.

[Sainty43]

I didnt find it insulting I just wanted to make sure you knew what position I am in!

Your right I dont have a lot of knowledge about the RAF or NAVY thats why I'm on here asking questions!

[JAG3]

Regarding A levels it doesnt matter which one you take as long as it gains you the qualifications. I advise you to HURRY UP and try to get them as quick as possible because if you dont youll be competing in a few years with guys with degrees from uni.

[airborne_artist]

You'll need GCSE Cs or better in Maths and at least one English, but check. Clearly you need to take advice from your tutors on choice of A-levels - I know from my daughter's experience that Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Biology are all hard work!

You need to realise that to pass for Observer and Pilot you'll need very good mental maths skills. If you are struggling to get a C grade at GCSE then I'd question your chances, personally.

[737-900wanabee]

Hi,

Just to add my 2p's worth, i reckon anyone (appart from mathmatically dyslexic people) can learn quick mental maths. I use to be quite useless at it, but with enough work you can do it. :ok:

[Sainty43]

Ok thanks airborne_artist!

I beleive I am very good at mental maths (I actually enjoy it!) i'm just not very good at the other side of maths that's why I got a D at GCSE!

Ok then I guess my next step is to get some info from my local college on courses, etc.

Thanks for your replies!

Anyone else reading this that wants to post a comment please feel welcome!

Cheers

Sainty

[noonoos]

I've been thinking about this quite a lot. I think things are far from lost for you sainty.

If you were to go and get your GCSE's and A levels by the time you are 23 you will have a couple of problems. Firstly, is that you'll only have one shot at OASC or AIB, so you'll have to get it right first time. Secondly, everyone else who is 23 and applying will most likely have a degree of some sort.

As such, you'll need to get your GCSE's and A levels to high standards (I'd aim for at least B's in everything). If you can do this I think you will show good character and this will reflect well upon you at OASC. At the end of they day, you'll just tell them that things didn't go well first time round, and that this made you realise just how much you wanted to be a pilot. You've then gone back to school or college and done what is necessary to get it. To me that would show great determination, motivation and commitment to the RAF. Coupled with the fact that you've got a PPL this would make you a reasonable character on paper.

Obviously, that is only one part of the selection process, and sucess is far from guaranteed. I had to go through OASC twice before getting selected for my bursary, and I can tell you that there is a lot more to the selection process than pure academics. You may not have a Masters in Engineering, but you may still make a good Officer.

All the best.

Noos

[737-900wanabee]

Hi,

Also go to your opticians and have an eye examination, as i believe its one of the things people fail the most on in medicals!!


BEst of Luck to you on it.

[Bob Viking]

Just to add my little bit.
As others have mentioned, grades aren't everything. My GCSE's weren't startling, my A levels thoroughly average, I did get a degree but not an essential qualification. I now do what you aspire to do (ok maybe not on the aircraft of your dreams!) so all is not lost.
My point is that grades are not everything. If it's what you want to do then go with it and you never know. You may well have a lot more to offer than simple academic ability.
BV:ok:

[theedmancometh]

Sainty, I've been following this thread with great interest as I'm facing a similar dilemma, only Downunder.

Firstly, I also recommend seeing an optometrist. I found that if you have any problems with your eyes, no matter how minor, it could delay and upset the application process. I had applied for the RNZN for pilot, and had ticked a box on the Medical questionairre asking about wearing glasses. I had been told by an optometrist that I needed glasses for night flying, as I have very minor shortsightedness. This is not listed as a Restriction on my civi PPL medical cert.
The same optometrist provided the Navy hospital with the figures, and they said I had no problems and was above their acceptance standard. Long story short, tick the wrong box and without any evidence on hand you get mucked around.

Secondly, I would ignore any comments directed at any lack of knowledge of the Armed forces or the application process, as this is an ideal place to ask people with experience about the ins and outs of it all. Especially when other people say the selection boards will want to know how much you know about what you're getting into, and the job you will be doing. I would also say that you obviously have the drive or else you wouldn't be on here in the first place.

Lastly, I was always told that it pays to have a back up. This is after all, how I've ended up maintaining Navy helicopters, and not flying them. I'm 26, and am about to have a second try at applying. Even though it was said that it's a young mans game, I feel I have a shed load more life experience and skill than I had when I first applied at 17. Although it seems you have a tighter time line to acheive your goals, before you are "over the hill".

Good luck, ask as many people you can to build up a good picture of where you're heading, and I only wish as many Kiwis and Aussies used this forum as the Brits.

ED

[Tourist]

Lots of b@llocks being spouted on here.
As long as you meet the minimum educational requirements, and in my case even though I didn't, the rest is unimportant.
OASC, AIB are interested in totally different things in a pilot than superflous academic rubbish.
We are not interested in swotty geeks with degrees any more than thickys.
We are looking for people that can do the job. End of.

If you are interested, I have 4 3's at standard grade, and an A in A level Design (read woodwork. I was really good. no seriously, you should have seen my fruit bowl.)
Both RAF and RN have passed me at OASC and AIB.

[JAG3]

Why dont you prove how smart you are by going to the RAF careers website, would that not be the right thing to do rather than look for educational requirements on here!

[noonoos]

Why dont you prove how smart you are by going to the RAF careers website, would that not be the right thing to do rather than look for educational requirements on here!

He's not asking here because he wants to know what the requirements are. He's asking people's opinions on whether he has a real chance of getting in. Stop being so bloody negative. I seem to remember you asking plenty of questions about asthma etc. on this website too. The pair of you are not so dissimilar in your goals. How about giving the guy some help rather than pissing on his parade?!?

[JAG3]

Totally the opposite, he was asking questions which could have been found out easily on the careers website, isnt it a rule to do as much searching before you start a thread. When i posted a thread i was asking for opinions and not facts because i had already done research on the subject. I wish him all the luck.

[ExRAFAC]

Don't bother with the military. Go straight for the profesional aviators... Go BA!!

[Colonel W E Kurtz]

Really have to agree with the last post. You will waste years holding, get treated like crap, have a high probability of being killed so someone else who doesn't give a crap about you can get rich from oil, if you don't get chopped first!:}

Go civvy flying, a lot more professional, safer, fun, less morally dubious in this day and age.

I have seen both sides and have to say it is twenty times better where I am now.:O

[Sainty43]

Wow first of all thanks for the top class reply's people!

Ok so i've been thinking about this for a while now and I think the best thing for me to do is to re-do my GCSE's this coming September, and after that aim for my A-levels!

The fact is I might not get the qualifications in time but at least it puts me in a better position than i'm in now! I'm also going to go back down to my AFCO and have a good chat with them there!

As with the posts about becoming a civvy pilot, that was one of the routes I wanted to go down but it looks too expensive for me, plus it wont be the same experience as doing it through the military!

JAG3 if all your going to do is make unnecessary little coments like you are then I dont want to hear them! noonoos is right when he says we are not so dissimilar so a little bit of kind advice would be much appreciated!

Many, many thanks to all your reply's and again if you have anymore to say on this matter please post!

Sainty

[eagle 86]

Col K
"Professional" means paid to work. In my part of the world ex-mil are prized by airlines because of the very good, disciplined training on top machines that they get. Any young bloke who wants to get real kicks out of aviation instead of just bus driving would be mad not to join military as the first step - BUT consider carefully the consequences of joining up in these times!
GAGS
E86
PS I've seen both sides including 12 months where some on the ground did not appear to like me overly much.

[theedmancometh]

Sainty, I tried to reply to your PM, but to no avail.

I'd have to agree that military flying is surely more exciting than civvi flying. I haven't seen too many 737 pilots landing an a/c on a pitching, rolling and wet deck that's barely bigger than the a/c itself. Don't even need a hostie, the crewies love bringing the pilots their tea and sandwhiches. Yeah right!

I always wonder how civvi pilots have paid for their flying, especially when it seems that a high number of hours are required for even the most basic airline. Most civvi pilots I have met either won't tell me how they got to where they are, have had quite a generous and well off family member, or have slogged it for years as an instructor, living on the bones of their arse, trying to pay off their student loan. Therefore, I would say the Military is a good way to go for a young guy with big ambitions and little money. Especially when the civvi aviation world is overcrowded by pilots, like it is over here.

Question: Is anything other than the normal free registration required to PM people?:confused:

[mlc]

I did my AIB when I was 22, having gone back to night school to get a couple more O levels. I was informed that one of the primary reasons for my acceptance was this very fact. The determination to improve my qualifcations in order to further my ambition. (I didn't have a degree or A levels).

Unfortunately, I was then let down (just) by my eyesight. Joined anyway and ended up as an ATCO.