British Plane on Fire in Afghanistan.. [Archive]

nigegilb

24th May 2006, 13:11

Everyone is safe, so I would like to point out that today Chappie has launched a petition for every Herc to get foam protection. Please sign it. I pleaded with the authorities not to send Hercs to Afg without foam. This is the front page of a manufacturer of foam. We do not know why this Hercules is burning but the media are reporting a tyre burst causing FOD damage leading to fire. Please read below.

Safety Foam is a fully reticulated, flexible polyurethane foam composed of a skeletal matrix of tiny lightweight interconnecting strands. These act as a three dimensional fire screen. The material is a passive, self healing, explosion suppression system capable of withstanding multiple hits. Safety Foam Functions:
1 Fuel Tank Inerting
2 Slosh Attenuation (Baffling)
3 Dry Bay Explosion Suppression
4 Foreign Object Debris (FOD) Barrier
5 Electrostatic Suppression in Fuel Tanks

Training Risky

24th May 2006, 13:12

Oh, from the title I thought it was about woodworkers acting as missionaries abroad. What is a 'plane' anyway?:E

Seriously though, 'big up' to the crew!

ExALM

24th May 2006, 13:16

Prob will not count as an Evacuation Drill for BTR's tho!!!!!

mary_hinge

24th May 2006, 13:20

BBC News 24 now reporting that the Taliban have made a claim for the incident.

GreenWings

24th May 2006, 13:26

BBC News 24 now reporting that the Taliban have made a claim for the incident.

I hope they keep their reciepts. Wouldnt want them to get charged with financial irregularities when JPA decides to audit their 'claim'.

Oops, wrong thread! ;)

Hat, coat, door, etc.

-GW-

brakedwell

24th May 2006, 13:45

I hope they keep their reciepts. Wouldnt want them to get charged with financial irregularities when JPA decides to audit their 'claim'.
Oops, wrong thread! ;)
Hat, coat, door, etc.
-GW-
At least the long suffering taxpayers will know where to send the bill to. :sad:

ORAC

24th May 2006, 13:58

To misquote Admiral Beatty, There seems to be something wrong with our bloody AT aircraft these days.

batfink2

24th May 2006, 14:12

The MOD News caught up surprisingly quickly!
MOD News (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/NoCasualtiesInAfghanistanHerculesIncident.htm)

woptb

24th May 2006, 14:21

BBC News 24 now reporting that the Taliban have made a claim for the incident.

So has the Peoples Popular Front For The Liberation Of Judea :}

nigegilb

24th May 2006, 14:34

Telegraph now saying ac destroyed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=1FHEQ4SFWFVUPQFIQMFSFGGAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2006/05/24/ubritsafghan.xml

WhiteOvies

24th May 2006, 14:37

Peoples Popular Front For The Liberation Of Judea

Splitters!:} I heard it was the Popular Peoples Front!

Seriously though, thank goodness no casualties. I suspect that is why Mod web was so quick: to prevent family of any Herc crews from too much undue worry.

flipster

24th May 2006, 16:04

Bit of a close call! Thank the Good Lord that everyone got out ok - well done to those involved - 'shreddie changes' all round!? I bet the beer will taste good tonight!!!!:ok: :ok: :cool:

I'm sure everything will come out soon enough but a tyre-burst v engine damage theory seems 'a bit thin' to me as the tyres are well covered by fuselage/doors. Also, the tyres are well below and behind the 'business part' of the inboard engines - but the tyres are in line with the ext fuel tank (if a K). Lots of other possibilities, tho' - FOD v Aux Fuel tank, SA v Fuel tank/engine, uncontained Engine Fire etc. Any hares running yet?

However, it is also peculiar how the damage became so widespread, so quickly. Would foam have helped stop the spread of fire - maybe? dunno? I am sure the BOI will do a thorough job whatever.

Don't suppose there was any fire cover other than a donkey's water trough, half a mile away! That, however, is an operational risk everyone knows is impossible to get around. But I thought we carried an extra large chem-foam fire extinguisher for emergencies for strip-work? That might have helped? - tho' on the other hand, probably not!

Whatever the cause, that is one less Albert in the inventory - that means less training, less kit, less felxibility, more money req'd from MOD/Treasury to replace capability - bu@@er!

But on the other hand - 2 Gp must now be overborne with crews - so expect the redundancy letters from PMA soon!???:oh:

ORAC

24th May 2006, 16:06

J or K by the way?

k1rb5

24th May 2006, 16:12

short K apparently. bu&&er!

mbga9pgf

24th May 2006, 16:34

Kandahar my backside, we are back to JANDAHAR!!!!!! again, thank christ we didnt loose anyone in this incident.

SET 18

24th May 2006, 17:21

For quite a few years Nige....

this was not flown by your ex-muckers.

LynehamMuppet

24th May 2006, 18:06

It was a MK1 "K" with those fancy DIRCM(sp?) thingies. Bu$$er indeed. Glad everyone got out ok.

Al-Berr

24th May 2006, 18:21

Apparently the southern Afghan province of Helmand has now been evacuated……………… the smell of burning p1ss has become unbearable!! :E
Glad everybody is OK. :ok:

TheInquisitor

24th May 2006, 18:29

Aircraft is most certainly Cat 5 - almost completely destroyed by fire.

Nice to see Des Browne squirming uncomfortably on C4 news when asked about ESF.

Daysleeper

24th May 2006, 18:29

Quite frankly it could have been something as simple as a minor brake fire which would have been a bit of a non-event anywhere else. Unfortunately the local fire service consists of 3 men and a pump carried on a donkey called Desmond.

LynehamMuppet

24th May 2006, 18:32

Nice to see Des Browne squirming uncomfortably on C4 news when asked about ESF.

Squirming? Lying his a$$ off is more like it. Bloody MP's...

LM

TheInquisitor

24th May 2006, 18:33

I'm sure everything will come out soon enough but a tyre-burst v engine damage theory seems 'a bit thin' to me

Got to admit, I'm with you here Flipster. Seems a bit unlikely, although not beyond the realms of possibility.

nigegilb

24th May 2006, 18:44

Am sure everyone familiar with Chinook crash knows that when C4 decide to do a story they stay with it. Damn sure they are running with ESF. Almost made it on tonight, pity. Desmond said foam would not have helped in this instance; he is a very brave man for saying that. Foam acts as a barrier to FOD, and God forbid if that ac was shot at, heads have to roll this time.

set 18, have cleared PM box.

Navaleye

24th May 2006, 19:01

Have we got any flying Ks left now?

Sensible Garage

24th May 2006, 19:07

reggie anyone?

thunderbird7

24th May 2006, 19:22

Unfortunately the local fire service consists of 3 men and a pump carried on a donkey called Desmond.

Actually, I think you'll find that's 'Suleiman al Desmond Khan'.

wz662

24th May 2006, 19:22

Just who thought it was a good idea to part-ex Ks for Js whilst hoping (and its a big hope) that the A400M will hit the ground running as a useful bit of kit. - And from my experience in both those programs the hairbrush effort is so flawed it will make the J look faultless.

nigegilb

24th May 2006, 19:44

We are going to have a problem well before A400M hits the streets. This thing (Afg) has not even started yet. 3 yrs from now what state are we going to be in?

I was out in Kosovo when we totalled a MK1 off a strip. Please take care of the crew and pax in Afg. Fortunately my crew were not on shift that night in Kosovo. We looked after the other crew on their return (plied them with drink). Do not underestimate the effect of the shock. S**t happens fellas you did a great job getting everyone out of Albert in one piece.

lukeylad

24th May 2006, 20:46

well done to the crew on getting every one out. shame to loose a k model theres just something about them for me that makes em niceer than the J

flipster

24th May 2006, 20:48

Nige is spot on (as ever) - anyone out there - please take care of the crew. Just because they 'walked away' doesn't make it all 'tickedy boo'. Shock takes many forms and can creep up insidiously on the unsuspecting -even if they are 'rock hard'. That said, getting them 'back in the saddle' quickly must be a priority too!

Now, to those who are slightly more up to date than me - please tell me we have been carrying those foam fire extinguishers if landing on strips? If not, I bet you will next time! Imagine if the locals were not expecting you and your minister - or what if if the locals became 'unfriendly'!?

One supposes that the full might of the RAF's CSAR (Combat Survival and Rescue) Helos went immediately into action and picked up our brave troops under the cover of the supporting CAS, AWACs, AAR and fighter top-cover. Then again...........perhaps not!!!!

I would certainly be keen to hear the CSAR debrief!!!!

nigegilb

24th May 2006, 21:02

It was a major drama getting clearance for internal fire extinguisher on SF. Did it again in Afg (Main Sqn) 2002. I suspect conditions on the ground are particularly challenging on the strips in Afg. Like I say s**t happens. Wrote to HCDC ref concerns about force protection and CSAR. Got fobbed off by Govt Defence Ministers, funny old thing. The crew in Kosovo got picked up by an unlikely ally. Do not want to explain here. Still v angry about lack of foam. Do not appreciate Des Browne pre-empting AAIB result.

Serious point. Welfare of crew and pax highest priority at mo.

Maybe ex ALM chip in about fire cover.....

NG

Confucius

24th May 2006, 21:16

All the best to 'me old muckers' who got out this time.

It does slightly put the kybosh on me getting back to K Hercs, runnin' out of frames. Bugger.

lukeylad

24th May 2006, 21:16

any one confrim that it landed on the new landing strip bulit by the engineers? i was just reading bout it in AFM 2day

ExALM

24th May 2006, 21:22

Hi Nige,
You know as well as I do, having been out for 4 years now tho, that the reduced fire cover made it poss to do many jobs that would otherwise would have fallen by the wayside. Lets face it most of the airports we have been to together in Africa might have had fire cover, but I never expected much from them.
I feel it would not be poss to carry enough equipment to do anything more than give you a little more time to evac the aircraft. Nothing faster than a pair of scared aircrew legs. I'm also lead to believe that the strips would be far too exposed to leave fire personnel on.
Sh!t happens. Just glad beyond belief that all legged it in the correct manor.

fatobs

24th May 2006, 21:26

Glad all got out OK.

Tonight was the first interview I have seen given by Des Browne - on Channel 4.

Man couldn't string a coherent sentence together, knew less about the event than I did (and I fly naval sea kings!!) and was so evasive, if you could strap him to the side of an aircraft all our worries would be over!!

God help the armed forces with this fool in charge, I'm out in 13 months after 16 yrs and in thats not a moment too soon.

Fatobs

flipster

24th May 2006, 21:59

I read a commentary in one of the papers (Times?) yesterday that intimated that Mr Browne will 'Bore for Britain'! However, they suspected that it was a 'front' for a very incisive mind. Hmmmmmm...the jury is out on that one!

However, it woudn't take a very incisive mind to realise that our military have been right-royally f@cked over by this (and previous) gov'ts asking them to do more and more with less and less. Let's hope his sharp intelllect allows Mr Browne to cut to the chase - and provide our Forces with the equipment, support and manpower they deserve, or else, GETTHE HELL OUT of IRQ and AFG!

rafloo

25th May 2006, 00:36

Apologies chaps, for some reason I can't get onto the Links, nor a news site. Has it been confirmed that it was a Military C-130 and if so was it an RAF aircraft?

brain fade

25th May 2006, 01:17

That's TWO hercs lost now, and one crew. For what?

WTF are we doing in Afghanistan anyway?

It's enough to give one the boke.

Democracy. my arse!:{

SlippingRight

25th May 2006, 04:37

Any photos? Computer won't play videos.

afghanhound

25th May 2006, 05:48

Its not the strip the sappers built. Its the same strip at Lashkar Gar where a AN-26 last month piled in (Both pilots killed when a car drove across the runway whilst taking off) none as BOST. C-130 written off

ExRAFRadar

25th May 2006, 05:53

Picture in the Mail this morning. A/C burnt to a cinder(well tail survived) and a remarkably intact Chelsea Tractor type jeep thing, that it was rumoured, was to be used to ferry the ambassador around the area.

Bloody thing probably had more armour plating than a Challenger....

Where R We?

25th May 2006, 06:02

Talk this morning on the news that it may have hit a mine, that would explain a lot...

chappie

25th May 2006, 07:22

hello one and all. i'm bob o'connors sister. he was one of the crew to perish on xv179 on jan 30th 05. yesterday was an emotional day for me as i was so scared that the outcome of the hercules fire was much worse than it was. please ensure that you all take care of yourselves and each other. as flipster wisely says do not underestimate the power of shock. i am so thankful that the crew got out alive but i expect they had the memory fo xv179 going through their mind. nonetheless, we cannot rest as there is still the increased risk that unless we get foam to all hercules now we will be seeing this happen again. foam may or may not have a place in yesterdays fire. i do not know the technical side. i do find it very strange that the wheel bursting caused so much damamge. i know the herc is on a reduced service life and will be fazed out but this is ridiculous way of doing it. i feel so much sadness and pain as it's opened up a very raw pain. even if foam had no place, let us also not underestimate the effect of a full DAS. if there was enemy fire we have to wonder why this was the outcome if as des browne says we send our troops out with appropriate measures to maintain their safety. what a liar!

i have worked very hard to try and get foam /DAS for all hercules and will step up my fight now. i have been in the house of commons taking on MP's. i have had defence question asked in parliament. i'm waiting to hear back from des browne about meeting him. there is an MP called james gray who some of you may know. he is reported to have branded nigel gilbert a self publicist and to let the foam issue lie! his comments are on the parliamentary questions thread.page 30 ish.it's worth a look. please join us in contacting him to tell him he's wrong! i do need your help though chaps and chapesses. please spread the word on your bases. i, a nurse from cambridge, have set up a petition calling for signatures to support fleetwide foam with immediate effect on a website. please sign it and get your friends and families to. in 48 hours we've had 342 names. this is more than we had in weeks on the one calling for blair to meet with the bereaved families. the website is www.mfaw.org.uk follow the links in the box i think it's orange writing on a green background,or vice versa! it may be utter madness that it takes a nurse to instigate this but if the government can't do it after losing ten of your colleagues then it will have to be shown that we want it. thankyou.

Almost_done

25th May 2006, 07:54

Todays article from the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/25/wafg25.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/05/25/ixnews.html)gives a fair account. The last paragraph, understatement of fact.
'The crash is likely to put further strain on the RAF Hercules transport fleet, operating at maximum capacity for the Government's overseas expeditions.'

A huge well done to the crew and glad all are safe.

nigegilb

25th May 2006, 08:08

A mine would make sense to me. Once again this was a very highly considered crew. What on earth is going on with force protection here. Adam Ingram chose to hide behind secrecy when challenged about force protection by HCDC. He simply refused to answer the questions. A mine is explosive, Des Browne said last night that ESF would not have helped. I believe this remark is foolish and irresponsible. I believe this is the sort of thinking that has led to the loss of 2 Hercs and considerable loss of life. If our brave crews do not have fire cover on these strips they should have every other type of protection.

MODERN DAS Min Standard DIRCM
ESF Foam Protection for fuel tanks
FDA Flight Deck Armour
BALLISTIC (Kevlar) MATTING Protect passengers

How many more times do we have to say this? How many more Hercules do we have to lose?

NG

ancientaviator62

25th May 2006, 08:52

Whilst it may have been a mine (84 had a Beverley temporarily disabled by one 'up country' in Aden ) it could just as easily have been just the tyre exploding. As my fading memory recalls the USAF have lost several C130s to just such an event. On the OCU when doing several rollers in succession it was the SOP to leave the dunlops dangling to cool the brakes and the tyres. The hyd systems (utility and booster ) are pressurised to around 3000 psi and any rupture of the lines caused by a blowout or brake explosion causes highly flammable vapour to be ejected giving a blowtorch effect. No authorised amount of fuselage carried portable fire ext would do much good in this instance.
Glad to see all survived. (I take it as read that the LOX tank is empty and purged on these sorties !)

nigegilb

25th May 2006, 09:26

LOX pot would have been very well protected in this case.

Echo 5

25th May 2006, 09:51

[QUOTE=ancientaviator62]Whilst it may have been a mine (84 had a Beverley temporarily disabled by one 'up country' in Aden ) unQUOTE]

If you're referring to XM106 at Habilayn then there was nothing " temporarily disabled " about it. It was dragged to the edge of the airstrip and the Royal Engineers finished it off with a large amount of HE.

Fg Off Max Stout

25th May 2006, 12:37

I've just seen the phots. That's not going to polish out, is it! Time for Tony B to order a couple more airframes (or not).

Gainesy

25th May 2006, 12:47

Picture provenance unknown
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/Herc24May06Lashkargar.jpg
Daily Mail image
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/herculesG_350x200.jpg

flipster

25th May 2006, 13:35

Ancient aviator - I think you'll find that the only hydraulics near the tyres are the brake lines which have a reduced pressure (2000psi IRC) and have hydraulic fuses that should prevent a leak becoming too large. All the 'big' hydraulics are the other side of the bulkhead. However, the reason we used to carry the extinguishers was was for brake fires - which can become nasty.

Unfortunately, I suspect that the reality is that a big brake/hyd fire would not allow the extinguisher to be got out in time to be much use (it is quite hefty), it wouldn't have been much use even once in position. Furthermore, there may have been a Mayfair Tractor in the way? Who knows - only time will tell.

If however, a fuel leak caused by FOD/bullets/leak and then which caught fire may have been prevented from spreading by the fitting of foam. Again who knows?

Speculation is interesting but it detracts from the main arguments that ESF should have been fitted to this aircraft before it was deployed. Its replacement should also be fitted - but it won't!

Where is the ballistic matting and why are we flying in the day? It all seems a bit unecessary to me.

We are using up our luck at a most alarming rate!

Rust In Pieces XV206

ancientaviator62

25th May 2006, 13:36

I was being ironic ref the Beverley so as not to upset its many fans. I understand about smoke/fumes in the air (had a fire under the flight deck floor once when carrying three LOX pallets to Belize) but was under the impression that a bottled oxy system similar to that used by Jate for 35000+ft free fall para was under consideration for various tasks. I have been out of the RAF for a long time and it looks like it got nowhere. I believe that several C130H operators opted for gaseous oxy as opposed to LOX for obvious reasons. Has the J got LOX ?

flipster

25th May 2006, 13:48

Not sure but the oxy system should be well-protected no matter how it is produced - however such protection is also only a relatively new-ish fit.

truckiebloke

25th May 2006, 14:07

well, one less serviceable 'k' !!!!

About 20% of the serviceable fleet just gone up in flames!!

nigegilb

25th May 2006, 14:09

I understand that all SF ac have double protection for LOX. Cannot speak for rest of fleet. I am sure the problem is understood. PM me if you have any concerns.

NG

Sensible Garage

25th May 2006, 14:26

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source/search/FrameSet.aspx?s=EventImagesSearchState%7c0%7c1%7c0%7c28%7c0% 7c0%7c0%7c1%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c71028559%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c%7c %7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0%7c0&p=7&tag=4

whoa!!!!

lukeylad

25th May 2006, 15:26

how many K frames we got left now?

airborne_artist

25th May 2006, 15:30

http://www.hrmconsultancy.net/images/lab1.jpg

But no matter what happens, the British Army officer still has his trusty black labrador with him.

nigegilb

25th May 2006, 15:32

It's not so much how many k frames, more how many short k frames. Need the short ones for particular missions and we are not exactly flush...

I'd go as far as to say we are in a crisis. How are we supposed to spare the frames for a lengthy mod program now? Something has to give. If it is the program the boys do not get protected. if it is the op, red faces in High Command. Exactly who's idea was it to fight war on two fronts?

lukeylad

25th May 2006, 15:36

airborne_artist

25th May 2006, 15:41

fight war on two fronts

Look what happened to the last guy who tried that. Worth remembering how hard the Russians fought compared to the French. The Russians call it the Great Patriotic War and lost 22 million. I wonder what the Afghans will be calling it?

Easy - "de-stretch" a long one!! I'm sure Marshalls would be happy to give a quote. Not sure they can give a courtesy a/c while it's in the shed, though.

Gainesy

25th May 2006, 15:45

But no matter what happens, the British Army officer still has his trusty black labrador with him.
Dog Thinks: "If ol' Rupert asks me to pick that up, his arse is history".

nigegilb

25th May 2006, 16:35

I know a very funny story about an Afghan dog adopted by some of the lads when they were sharing a control tower with some locals. Probably not the best place to divulge here.

As for the Herc is it a case of saving £600,000 at a cost of £50m for a new J model?

NG :E

truckiebloke

25th May 2006, 17:43

Lukeylad

Latest engineering reports predict maximum 6 frames within the next 6 months if absolutely everything goes to plan....

Guess its one less now....

Where R We?

25th May 2006, 17:46

At least you can say a LR Disco is very well built!

nigegilb

25th May 2006, 18:12

s**t going round corners though!

Confucius

25th May 2006, 18:34

s**t going round corners though!

The Disco3 isn't so bad, better than much of the competition anyway.

wz662

25th May 2006, 19:09

Will there be any Ks left for the RAF museum?
And at the risk of being controversial should we really be sending the airframes that have had money spent on them for things like HEVS, DIRCM etc into areas where there are bad guys? We all know now that misters Brown and Browne will now be looking for other ways to save penies and their (over generous) pensions.

flipster

25th May 2006, 19:38

Not wanting to state the bleedin' obvious but the whole reason for having DIRCM, HEVS, MAWS etc

IS TO ACTUALLY GO WHERE THE BAD GUYS ARE!!!

There is really no point sending Dumb frames - they would be even worse off!:ugh: :ugh:

Pass-A-Frozo

25th May 2006, 19:47

:} haha.. I thought I must have mis-understood his post

SirToppamHat

25th May 2006, 20:10

I assumed he was being ironic ...

STH

TheInquisitor

25th May 2006, 20:48

Looking at the wreckage, I'd be amazed if anything combustible survived. Imprests aren't fireproof after all!

I'm betting JPA Expenses doesn't have a "Reciepts incinerated in aircraft wreckage" option...

Confucius

25th May 2006, 21:27

Won't S.F. have their own printing machine for receipts? Or will they just claim for several snack meals, each under £5.00 local equivalent, per day like the rest of us? Not to mention a <£5.00 laundry bill, <£5.00 newspaper and <£5.00 'phone call, totalling on average <£10.00 per day.

Skeleton

25th May 2006, 22:54

hmmmmm how about we get some of the firemen who want to strike out there.
It obviously caught fire and they get paid for what there prepared to do.
And it was daylight so they were not asleep preparing for there second jobs.
Just a thought for them.
Glad everyone got out :)

flipster

26th May 2006, 02:43

Actually, I bet the laundry bill will be quite high!

I think you will also find that the Altantic Conveyor was on board, along with all its cargo!!!!!:D :D

ExHerkmate

26th May 2006, 03:00

Glad all made it out okay, and pray the injured speedily recover. Nige, today brought back that Saturday sitting out behind the condemned married quarters in S.Vito getting shedded when the XV298 crew came home. Don't care to relive the feelings waiting for them to be picked up by the coalition helo.

ExHerkmate

nigegilb

26th May 2006, 06:53

When I said earlier that we plied them with drink, I think we actually did the drinking in shifts. We couldn't keep up! It was quite difficult being left behind and picking up the pieces. I am sure the guys in Afg will be OK, but the whole world has changed since 298. Scary times.

Four Wings

26th May 2006, 10:07

Airborne Artist asks: I wonder what the Afghans will be calling it?
A good Afghan friend (the only Afghan Army officer to have trained at Sandhurst - vintage 1971 or so) insisted that what we called the Afghan Wars they called the English Wars. A great guy - my wife used to go weak at the knees when he turned out in the middle of Kabul in Sandhurst mufti of blue blazer and cavalry twills. Told me that the British Army was the only model for an Afghan army: small, highly trained, volunteer, moving fast. As exemplified in the Retribution Expedition in Sep 1842. Later he was a mujhadin fighter, then a taxi driver in Washington DC (another first for Sandhurst?).

spankedcat

27th May 2006, 13:06

Gents, and Ladys.

A lot of talk of foam and kevlar and other 'mods' that would make us totally impervious to whatever the bad blokeys would care to throw at us...(apart from RPG's)

Foam. ok, if the MOD fit it, they will only fit it to a select group of frames(which has just decreased by one) and as they are looking to buy only one half of the kit, wing maintenance will become a nightmare. For those of you who do not know the make up of the foam, I suggest you look into it very carefully. Any impact on maintenance time has an impact on A/C availibility.P.S, a certain nation already has this Mod fitted to its C130's, but are removing it because of fuel flow problems to the engines.

Kevlar for the cargo bay. Lets be realistic here. the armour on the J's and subsequently fitted to the K's weighs about 550 Kg's, and that is just a small proportion of the A/C. If you were to fit it for everyones protection, no way in hell would you get off the ground.

LOX. The BAF has fitted Molecular Oxygen systems to its H fleet, but has some reliability issues wtih it. I think its pretty safe to say that the UK herc fleet's LOX pots are more than adequately protected.

Morales of the story.....
1.any A/C manufacture can build an A/C that is 'everything' proof, the only drawback is you wont be able to fly it, and it will cost you an arm and a leg.
2. The powers that be fought very hard (probably) to get all the 'guici' mods to the K's, but at what cost????.(i.e. if it really doesn't cost that much to fit, why wasn't it done a long time ago?)
3. Operational Risk. We all sign up to do a job, sometimes its good, sometimes bad. But with both sides of the coin we accept the risk inherent with the job at hand.
I do not by any means wish to stir up a hornets nest of abuse with these things, but I do believe we live in a far from perfect world, where monitary issues come before lives.(unfortunately)

SC

nigegilb

27th May 2006, 13:25

Spanked cat you make some very interesting points. I would like to add the following. I would hope that RAF are aware of the following potential problems.

"It is relatively simple to fit, if messy. And with the unfamiliarity with it, the RAF will very likely experience some initial teething problems in the form of clogged fuel filters! When they install the foam, the edges of it can "splinter" or "rub" off (it is cut/shaped with a simple razor knife) and end up as so much detrius caught in the filter - the scale of which can result in flameouts! The other limitation is when any in-tank servicing must be done, it is quite the chore to remove the foam and then reinstall it. If you hear of any unexplained flameouts, contact the SENGO & suggest a one time inspection of all foam-equipped aircraft fuel filters. fortunately, all of our flameouts occurred on the ground..."

That said, I am yet to meet a USAF Herc pilot who would not want to go into a war zone without foam protection.

On the point about kevlar matting. I hope you will find that the Australians manage OK. I know we have Aus readers of this site and I would very much like to hear about their experiences both with foam and matting. This matting is rolled out and can be removed easily. Remember Hercs can be packed with troops. In my experience, ALMs correct me if I am wrong, the herc will bulk out on pax before exceeding max weights. FDA on J is lightweight. I am familiar with FDA on K which was very different. I am not an expert, I am highlighting issues of concern. RAAF set about trying to protect passengers because a passenger on board, was shot and killed by small arms fire piercing the ac skin. I am impressed by their determination to try and prevent another incident happening again. Surely you can see the merit in trying to protect your passengers? When I flew into Afg it was at MOW. Max military T/O weights, landing weights were up to captain and crew. A Herc can go with 175k old money so the weight of freight bay protection is unlikely to be an issue. If 206 did run over a mine on a strip would you have liked to have had such protection on board? I know what my answer would be.

Please let us know which nation is removing foam. I understand that another coalition partner has decided to fit foam in the last few days. I am not saying which because I do not have official confirmation yet. The Americans have used this stuff for 40 years, so I do not see why it is so problematical for other nations.

Finally, I understand your point about signing up to the job. With the greatest respect though, that sort of attitude in isolation would have left us with dumb/slicks for yet another Op. I am no longer in RAF, I just do not want to see any more unnecessary death. We must continue to strive for the safety of military personnel. I did my time and I knew the risk, but my wife did not sign neither did my kids. They are the ones who have to pick up the pieces.

Cheers

NG

HercErk

27th May 2006, 20:39

"It is relatively simple to fit, "
NG
I am wondering if you actually knew what fitting the Foam to the hercs involves?

nigegilb

27th May 2006, 20:54

HE;
Note the quotation marks, experienced operators words, not mine. Included for benefit of RAF just in case they were not aware of bedding in probs. Am trying to be helpful. I do not have to fit it but if I was taxying out and the engine flamed out I would be more than slightly alarmed. We have different methods but we share the same end game.

NG :ok:

Blodwyn Pig

27th May 2006, 21:57

"FDA on J is lightweight"

not sure i'd call the 'j' armour light weight!

and just to keep you up to date, quite a few 'k's are fitted with the same stuff these days.

navibrator

30th May 2006, 12:50

Picture provenance unknown
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/Herc24May06Lashkargar.jpg
Daily Mail image
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v167/Gainesy/herculesG_350x200.jpg

I've flown worse...

MarkD

30th May 2006, 14:13

and the attrition replacement a/c will come from...?

spankedcat

14th Jun 2006, 17:59

Its the ceramic plates in the armour that stops the big stuff. The kevlar matting only provides something a bit more comfortable to lie on. Hence why the police use kevlar anti-stab vest's, but have ceramic body armour to stop bullets...

replacement A/C....laugh, I nearly did!

nigegilb

14th Jun 2006, 18:27

SASless

14th Jun 2006, 18:32

Under floor and seat armor on helicopters in Vietnam......"I was robbed!" We had armored seats, ceramic "Chicken" plates and very hard heads....but underfloor armor....nope! (unless he is talking of the sheet metal skin of the aircraft....)

nigegilb

14th Jun 2006, 20:08

Maybe the Aus kit was different in 'nam. Sorted my books out today SASless found an old copy of chickenhawk. Top book.

This is a link to the Gp Cpt Bennett interview

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4620/topstories/story02.htm

SirPeterHardingsLovechild

7th Jul 2006, 12:00

A few photos have been doing the rounds at Lyneham, and now they have been posted on the C130 Hercules HQ website. Not by me, boss.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/rc_johnson/290.jpg

More at

http://p076.ezboard.com/fc130herculesheadquartersfrm2.showMessageRange?topicID=1614. topic&start=21&stop=30

lukeylad

7th Jul 2006, 12:10

Wow cheers for that mate.;

Once again well done to the crew for getting the pax off safely.

nigegilb

7th Jul 2006, 12:25

Right at the beginning of this thread I said that the Crew and the Loadmaster esp did a great job to get everyone off. looking at that photo it must have been a heroic effort. Congratulations on an extraordinary job.

ANYONE FOR ESF?

MechGov

7th Jul 2006, 17:30

Mike, as you know, a good evacuation starts with a good approach.

flipster

7th Jul 2006, 23:23

Pah - looks like one of my better landings!

Actually.......HOLY SH!T guys!!!!!! Well done and hats off to the crew!

(Don't look much like a tyre went bang, tho!?)

Flip

chappie

7th Jul 2006, 23:34

:} wow...it's a miracle that there were no casualties from that, although i'm sure you don't escape being affected by how close you come to going to the great big bar in the sky and that should be remembered. i am so glad that everyone escaped.

just out of interest flip, what do you think it looks like?

Severance

8th Jul 2006, 00:20

For the record, the pic in post #102, it was still doing about 40 knots. Level headed, extremely professional crew.:D

flipster

8th Jul 2006, 07:17

Eng 2 is already feathered, and Eng 1 is becoming engulfed in fire along with the LH aux and external fuel tanks.... and the ac is canted over to port - all of which is interesting but, for me, the big clue is an awfully large cloud of black smoke, which looks suspiciously like an explosion - occuring a few secs prior to the pic.

What caused it tho, is anyone's guess - RPG (rocket propelled grenade), land-mine, remotely-detonated IED (improvised explosive device), HE round, who knows?? I would like to think that the BOI will tell all when they know. My money is on landmine/IED that took out the left wheels and started a fire in LH fuel tanks. Must have been 'kin hot as the No3 prop blades have melted - yikes (see link to other pics)!

Would ESF have helped contain the spread of fire? It sure looks like it to me!

Even more now, I am extremely impressed with the crew for getting out unharmed - the ambassador is a very lucky man! Well done boys, hope you get due recognition!

nigegilb

8th Jul 2006, 07:45

I think if there was a crater on the strip is a would be a bit of a giveaway.

BALLISTIC MATTING ANYONE?

flipster

9th Jul 2006, 00:21

I'd want it fitted, along with ESF, given the chance!

I'm sure the BOI would have found any crater - any news on that?

It also looks like, Nos 1, 3 and 4 engs are ground-stopped or maybe the 'shutter speed' of the camera makes it appear so?

Flip

ps I'm intrigued to know......exactly how did the crew get out? Using which doors/hatches?

I'm not sure I would have wanted to have got out the Port Para-Door, or even the main Crew Entrance Door and, without GTC/AC power, I'm not sure the ramp would have been an easy option? That leaves those 'holes' on the RHS along with various others on top. All of which, apart from the Stbd Para-Door, have interesting problems for use!

I'm just curious but it really does underline the fine job the crew did to ensure a safe evac! Thank the Lord for the OCU's EKQ on 'escape exits'...........ummmm!

Ignition Override

9th Jul 2006, 04:45

A USAF C-130 landed months ago on an Afghan runway which had a deep pit in it. Bad mess. They must have missed or misunderstood the NOTAMS.
Can't satellite photos be taken of all runways in Afghanistan at different times, in order to indicate strange shadows etc and help prevent what happened to the US plane? Maybe many are just packed dirt strips for LAPEs and assault landings.

Check the regular photos of many areas on GoogleEarth! Not so detailed, but the better technology is already paid for and available. Or do operations against Al Qaeda etc demand most of the photo analysis?
Put US bureaucrats/technocrats to work on something effective and maybe many more could earn their keep. Right now it is quite doubtful.

Very well done by the RAF crew! I can't imagine the courage required for the challenges onboard the single-pilot RAF transports and bomber planes in WW2 which all burned high-octane avgas.

Where R We?

9th Jul 2006, 08:02

A USAF C-130 landed months ago on an Afghan runway which had a deep pit in it. Bad mess. They must have missed or misunderstood the NOTAMS.
Can't satellite photos be taken of all runways in Afghanistan at different times, in order to indicate strange shadows etc and help prevent what happened to the US plane? Maybe many are just packed dirt strips for LAPEs and assault landings.
Check the regular photos of many areas on GoogleEarth! Not so detailed, but the better technology is already paid for and available. Or do operations against Al Qaeda etc demand most of the photo analysis?
Put US bureaucrats/technocrats to work on something effective and maybe many more could earn their keep. Right now it is quite doubtful.
Very well done by the RAF crew! I can't imagine the courage required for the challenges onboard the single-pilot RAF transports and bomber planes in WW2 which all burned high-octane avgas.
I think you will find the airfield was in Iraq and it was a pfaff with NOTAMS; the event happened late Dec 04. Unfortunately the TALON was a write-off. If you do a search on PPrune you will no doubt find the photos and the story behind it.

On_The_Top_Bunk

9th Jul 2006, 09:22

I think you will find the airfield was in Iraq and it was a pfaff with NOTAMS; the event happened late Dec 04. Unfortunately the TALON was a write-off. If you do a search on PPrune you will no doubt find the photos and the story behind it.

http://wrongcrowd.com/article.php/20050111105251926

nigegilb

9th Jul 2006, 11:33

When XV206 was destroyed on the strip 3 theories were running in the press.

1. Tyre burst
2. Ground attack ie RPG
3. Land mine

Looking at the photo I can't help but discount tyre burst. That leaves 2 and 3. A land mine/ied would have left a crater in the strip. Should have been fairly straightforward to figure out the cause. The BoI into the shooting down of XV179 concluded that the RAF should look URGENTLY at the fitting of foam to the Hercules. What the hell is going on. James Gray has ascertained that September or even October are the latest dates for the firat aircraft. I know that Lyneham's crews will shrug their shoulders and get on with the job-these photos show how brave and professional they are. However if lack of foam is once more a factor here then heads should roll. On a platter.

flipster

9th Jul 2006, 11:47

What I can't understand is how did the RAAF get their ac all done so quickly without apparently reducing their commitment?

Whereas the RAF, with a bigger fleet and a home-grown design authority (all of which should give more flexibility), cannot get their sh!t anywhere near their sock-drawer, never mind the socks therein!

Surely Marshalls and 2 Gp can do better than this? Or has our 'effective' fleet shrunk below 'critical mass'? Either way, the delays are becoming unacceptable and the ministers will have to front up the cash to Marshalls to do it quicker.....or reduce commitments to allow the urgent fitment of better ac self-protection - which includes ESF.

Can someone please explain the hiatus?:confused: :confused:

nigegilb

9th Jul 2006, 11:55

In my opinion Flip, it is a question of poor planning and a failure to prioritise safety. Risk management at its worst.

SirPeterHardingsLovechild

9th Jul 2006, 13:06

Flip

4. Uncontained turbine failure....

is another possibility.

We had this on a #3 engine in Basrah a few years ago and the bits chose to exit at the 8 o'clock position (from the rear). There were fifty-odd witness marks on the R/H fuselage including as far back as the DIRCM head. Big Al at the R/H para door shat himself.

The L/H clamshell door is in 47/LXX groundcrew crewroom, signed by the det.

Bits of molten turbine are not unlike bullets. (ESF again Nige & Flip!)

The BOI should be able to rule this in/out fairly quickly, day one in fact.

FormerFlake

9th Jul 2006, 14:30

Words of Gp Cpt Bennett RAAF

"The ballistic matting is intended as a protection against small arms rounds that might penetrate the aircraft, as occurred in an incident earlier this year when a US civilian died in a Hercules hit by small arms fire. The matting acts as a form of armour, similar to the underfloor and seat armour fitted to helicopters in Vietnam."

Believe me the Aussies do their homework.

This is correct. When I was researching what body armour (the MOD were going to refuse funding for) for the Brize aircrew I got to various parameters. The ceramic plates do the hard work, but good quality Kevlar/Ballisitc matting can still stop a bullet on it's own.

3portdrift

9th Jul 2006, 22:12

I have no handle on the scuttlebut at Lye, where no doubt the facts are known to some, but I wonder why the tyre explosion idea is being dismissed? My recollection of tyre/heavy braking problems is that the SOP was to stop gently, evacuate the ac and run away bravely due to the potential for tyres to explode, as they continued to heat up some time after coming to rest, hence brake cooling times of upwards of an hour in some cases.

Just noting a few things from the pics available on here:

There is no line of smoke, suggesting that the fire is recent to the time of the picture (40kts)

There is no sign of reverse (plenty of dust, but all behind the ac) - I don't recall the speeds through which reverse was used, but could this be indicative of and engine problem occurring early in the landing run? Engine problem > no reverse/caution reverse > increased use of brakes > hot tyres = 2 possible sources of combustion, tyres or dodgy Number 2.

The smoke could does not look particularly explosive (billowing, rounded edges) but rather more just expanding (ragged edges)
The cant of the aircraft suggests some sort of undercarriage issue, if it was simply a differential in fuel load, because one side had burnt a load off, it would be canted in the other direction surely?

If you lost a donk before landing, surely you would not land on a strip? On a v.important op task perhaps, but having the Ambassador on board might indicate that it was only a political, not warfighting task. Therefore, can one assume the engine was lost once committed to landing? (and therefore unlikely to be caused by SA, RPG etc)

All the fire seems to be below/behind the wing, SA might be stopped by a wing, but would something like an RPG not go through a wing leaving disruption to the top surface?

What was the strip usage? any runway grading/repair, heavy plant movement, previous landings, even Tac ATC runway inspections would have triggered a mine. Cant claim any mine laying experience, but I wouldn't have thought they coudl be easily, rapidly or discretely laid into a runway surface, even a strip 'overnight'?

Sorry if any of this offends those that prefer not to speculate, but as the crew and pax are all safe - and undoubtedly very bravely so - I hope it does no harm. I undoubtedly had old colleagues onboard, but since I departed the fix for civvy street I have lost contact - which leaves my brain with little to do but wonder - with increasingly poor recall of the facts and figures involved!

I'll go back to lurking now!

flipster

9th Jul 2006, 23:58

3PD

Tyres don't normally explode - they have 'thermal fuses' that prevent an 'explosion'. Also it takes a number of mins for the heat from the brakes to transfer by conduction to the tyres - about 3-5 mins at the quickest - so a tyre explosion resulting from hot brakes is most unlikely. Even if a tyre did go 'bnag', they do not normallly do so with large clouds of black smoke and dust - which is what has happened only a few secs before the photo (they look explosive to me).

I agree that the engine config throws up some interesting questions but, like you, I can't be sure of the explanation. (Tho' SPHLC is right, an uncontained turbine failure in No 2 is a possibility- I hadn't thought of that.......and probably a lot more!)

Why, though, do you presume that SA/RPGs could not be fired while the ac is on the ground? In this case, the firer has only 2 dimensions to consider when aiming, rather than 3 - so it is probably easier to a hit an ac on the ground rather than in the air. Of course, the firers have to be much closer to airfield but that is not a 'stopper' in this part of the world.

Now, an RPG fired from ground level would be likely to hit the side of the ac, not the top or bottom of the wing. Furthermore, it would have to be a very lucky shot as RPGs are bleedin' difficult to aim with any accuracy. However, 'lucky shots' seem to be getting 'luckier' these days - I guess the Talib are getting in lots of practice - let's hope they don't do the same with SA7s, double digits or Stingers!

I agree that strip work is normally not done with 3/2 engs but it depends mainly on the length of the strip and the weight of the ac, not to mention the importance of the missions. I am not privy to the actual data in this case but a feathered engine is inconclusive, one way or another. Remember that an aircraft's brakes do much of the stopping - reverse thrust is much less effective.

Neither am I a mine-expert, however, I believe that laying a well-hidden landmine is done suprisingly easily - that's why they are blowing off people's legs all over the world - thanks to the nations that sell them! The above strip looks like a nondescript 'bit of desert' and the surface is 'au naturel' making concealment easy. But you do rasie a valid point that brings into question the LZ defence/force protection issue. I would say it is very difficult to protect an LZ all night, in the desert with the few assets we have - as this LZ was not inside a 'perimeter'. Where are the RAFR when you need them? But its not their fault, they are all doing our IDT/IRT so we can deploy!! Neither can we blame the LZSO, if there was one; it would have been incredibly difficult to to spot a well-laid mine/IED on a few thousand feet of sand and rocks - of course, he could have driven over it and ......well, that's one way to clear an LZ - but one which is not taught on the LZSO course!

Some interesting points but I am VERY unconvinced about a tyre burst - especially with all that black smoke - if you look closely at No 1 engine - it, too, is on fire but there is no link with the fire around the No 2 engine. It looks as if something has caused another fire here as well - shrapnel from a large explosion perhaps (or uncontained turbine failure)?

However, we really ARE speculating now (which perhaps we shouldn't) but I stillthink ESF would have reduced the effects of any explosion and ensuing fire, and hopefully it may have saved the (expensive) ac. The fact that our guys and gals don't have it is most regrettable, nay, unforgiveable.

3portdrift

10th Jul 2006, 06:46

Thanks for that Flip, some very good points to mull over. Any news about BOI timings/reports filtering out yet?

I have to say, whatever the cause of the fire, it does look like a classic case of where ESF might have been able to do its job and save an extremely valuable airframe - to say nothing of extending the few seconds that the crew and pax must have had to complete a safe evacuation.

flipster

10th Jul 2006, 08:20

I've not heard anything yet.
I think we are all agreed about ESF, let's hope the board does too?

nigegilb

10th Jul 2006, 13:43

It was stated earlier that the ac is still doing 40 knots in the photo. Now if we continue with the most obvious explanation that it was indeed a mine, could be the crew received a double engine fire indication. The two fire indications closely following each other. It takes a finite amount of time to react to that situation in the landing rollout. If the ac ran over the mine early in the rollout it would also explain why no engines are in reverse and explain for the damage to the undercarriage. Once more I take my hat off to the crew, tricky handling, cool heads, bloody heroes one and all. I bet the ambassador was impressed.

If Mr TACAT had driven over a landmine he would now be brown bread, unless of course he was driving the ambassador's car. He is a VIP and they don't have to drive in fibre glass Land Rovers. Why is it that our troops always get the worst kit?

flipster

12th Jul 2006, 22:03

Nige

I second those remarks!

Flip

flipster

25th Jul 2006, 13:52

I was fascinated to learn that way back in Aden, the RCT/REME used to clear desert strips for the Beverley by driving a Ferret armoured car up and down the strip. The thinking was that it was better to lose a ferret rather than an aircraft - though I am not sure it would be politically acceptable these days. However, the principle still remains that land mines have been used before to 'down' ac. Anyone know the current SOPs for Landing Zone Safety Officers for such clearances - or have we collectively forgotten the lessons of history??

Flipster

nigegilb

25th Jul 2006, 14:15

Come on Flip, you know better than to ask questions like that. The army have been driving in fibre glass landrovers for years in Iraq. Belated good news today on the armoured vehicles destined for both theatres. Belated, because at least 18 deaths have been attributed to inadequately armoured vehicles. All the same, Des B did a good job.

I am now waiting for the announcement that the landmine was an 'old' one.

500days2do

25th Jul 2006, 15:15

And the forensic guys will probably inform us that we, the british, manufactured it.

5d2d

SASless

25th Jul 2006, 16:58

Nig,

Was there an outcry amongst the British public about the "Tommy Cookers" (Sherman Tanks with gasoline engines) during WWII? How many guys died as a result of using gasoline as fuel vice diesel engines?

The Oppos have proven to be very adaptable in the building more sophisticated and capable IED's that defeat even the M1 Abrams armour. There is some point at which no matter what one does....people will still die in combat. That is the nature of that human interaction.

Molesworth Hold

25th Jul 2006, 17:31

Was there an outcry amongst the British public about the "Tommy Cookers" (Sherman Tanks with gasoline engines) during WWII? How many guys died as a result of using gasoline as fuel vice diesel engines?

Just to go off on a tangent that's a poor comparison. British Forces did use Sherman's with diesel engines, the M4A2 (Sherman III to the British.) American forces in the ETO only used gasoline engine vehicles. The term "Tommy Cooker" is German, the British used "Ronson" as in "one strike and it lights." As the war progressed changes were made to the ammunition stowage and the amount of armour, but not the type of engine.

I'll get my anorak.

nigegilb

25th Jul 2006, 17:42

SASless I think you will find that Uncle Sam is selling us some armoured vehicles in the interim period.

Thanks. I don't suppose you want to trade them for snatch landrovers?

SASless

25th Jul 2006, 17:56

"Snatch Landrovers".....sounds like a crack unit that does hairy things!

Always a Sapper

25th Jul 2006, 19:56

3PD
Neither am I a mine-expert, however, I believe that laying a well-hidden landmine is done surprisingly easily - that's why they are blowing off people's legs all over the world - thanks to the nations that sell them! The above strip looks like a nondescript 'bit of desert' and the surface is 'au naturel' making concealment easy.

Quite correct, the likely surface there would without doubt aid in laying and concealing a mine, it would also, dependant on the mine type and depth of lay help reduce a crater, if you consider most of the blast from a mine goes up.... esp. with a shaped charge, and a crater is caused by the blast being deflected down and out by a heavy vehicle such as a tank being on top.

In this case if a mine was the cause it was a relatively fast moving aircraft which has a far higher ground clearance and is far more streamlined on the fuselage side than a tank and thereby more likely to deflect any blastup and to the side rather than down, that saying an A/T mine would punch right through the aircraft skin without even slowing down. As to damage to the port U/C assembly I wouldn’t like to say, never seen one go over a mine before but I wouldn’t think it would be pretty if it was an A/T mine.

An A/P mine would most likely just burst the tyres and take out the wheel bay hydraulics, may even spread some shrap' but that may/may not have reached the engines at that speed. A bouncing mine on the other hand...

But this is all guess work and until the BoE reports we really won’t know, what is without doubt is the skill and professionalism of the crew in stopping a rolling wreck and getting everyone out so well. Well done.

Gainesy

26th Jul 2006, 07:59

Nige,
Slightly off topic but I notice that you have twice talked of "Fibre-glass Land Rovers". In fact, all LR bodywork is of an aluminium alloy. (Don't want to give the politicians any wriggle room in PQs).

I agree with your sentiment that they are flimsy and totally inadequate, protection wise. Power to your elbow mate.

nigegilb

26th Jul 2006, 08:16

Thanks Gainesy,
I almost got involved in the army LR campaign, but I rapidly realised it was quite a complicated subject with no obvious solution aka foam for Herc. It was clear that the army were having to use whatever vehicle was available even if it was not fit for purpose, but I decided to leave it to the experts. I have to say I am impressed with what Des Browne has sorted. He has gone direct to the manufacturer and uparmed the existing design. And no, it is not being built in the UK at great cost and time delay, as a result, the boys should have the vehicles in the next few months. Contrast this with the Typhoon and Apache farce. More power to the elbow of Des and DEC! Maybe they will learn from this. How about some Russian helicopters next and sort the Hercs out somewhere else.

Seriously I have been a big critic of the woeful state of equipment and protection but credit where it is due, everyone involved did a great job.