Turkish and Greek military planes collide

[G-CPTN]

Report of an air-to-air over the Aegean Sea between aircraft from 'opposing' sides.

[splash&dash]

Breaking news here -



http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1222511,00.html

[Twitcher]

Greek and Turkish fighter jets have collided in mid-air over the southern Aegean sea, Greek officials say.
The collision and crash happened near to the island of Karpathos, they were quoted as saying.

A search and rescue effort is under way but the pilots' fate and the cause of the collision are not yet known.

In the past, Greece and Turkey have come close to armed conflict in the Aegean, where they dispute airspace and territorial waters.

[gonso]

It appears that the Turkish pilot ejected and he was picked up by a merchant ship in international waters. No news of the Greek pilot yet (not known if he has ejected).
The area has been a "playground" for years. When children play in the playground they often fall or bump into each other. That does not stop them want to play again though!
Hope both guys are ok

[ukcopper]

My thoughts go out to the crew. Lets just hope this doesn't start another "incident" between these two countries again.

[jonseagull]

This could be made to look minor by the potential mid air that exists between Erjan/Nicosia and Ankara for all those of us that regularly climb and descend towards the Cyproit FIR. Wouldn't it be great if this sort of incident would concentrate the minds of the International community to sorting out the debacle that exists in the "TOMBI/DASNI" region.

I am not Turkish or Greek and I know how sensitive an issue it is for all those more closely involved than I, but, is it not time to rectify a dangerous situation ?

[Upper Medium]

I'm a bit concerned about all this - with these islands being popular summer destinations for many of us. Have I just secured myself season tickets ringside to NATO dogfights this year, or do they stay away from metal tubes not blessed with the gadgets of Martin Baker & Co?


Please stay alert out there boys and girls

[blue up]

There seemed to be a little tension twixt the two sides whilst we were coming back from LCPH over the weekend. Erkan offering us a short cut whilst still in Nicosia airspace.

Might be a good time to let someone else take tempo resposibility for that small slice of air. Couldn't ICAO etc stick an un-biased controller in the Erkan hut or would nobody have the authority to enforce such a plan?

We stopped going through that Ankara/Nic section for a while about 3 years ago but came back to it.

[ARINC]

HUD film showing a similar situation with a Greek F16 keeping the diamond firmly on the Turk aircraft.

Edit: Found it here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48v-OM8W2Qo

CCIP working well and seems to get the radar lock just before the Sidewinder tone

[Jet_A_Knight]

Are Hellenic Air Force pilots well regarded?

[Best foot forward]

Does this mean the cost of Ouzo will hit the roof.:rolleyes:

On a more serious note hope both crew are ok.

[FJJP]

Turkish pilot rescued. Doesn't look promising for the Greek driver...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5008178.stm

[buoy15]

Had they been authorised for formation flying or legal stand-off range?
Either way, the pilots, or the authorising officers at the out-brief, should be culpibly negligent for this incident!

[skidbuggy]

For those who are interested in the previous clashes between these two countries....

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_299.shtml

[G-CPTN]

The pilot of an EgyptAir commercial jet witnessed the incident while on a flight to Cairo, a Greek Defense Ministry official said.
The body of a Greek pilot was found Tuesday, hours after his fighter jet collided with a Turkish F-16 during a mock dogfight over the southern Aegean Sea, according to Turkey's foreign ministry.
The Turkish pilot ejected safely and was rescued.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/05/23/greece.crash/index.html

[Tolsti]

The BBC are saying that 90 Greek pilots have been lost in mock dog fights over the past 30 years..... scary!

[buoy15]

So, who is authorising these Mock Dog Fights ?
Do the Sqn Cdrs keep a tally board?
Rather expensive peacetime training:sad:

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

Reminds me a little of the Star Trek episode where the planet had two civilizations that had been at war for several generations. Rather than fight to oblivion, they decide to let a computer run the war whilst they got on with their lives in a normal peaceful manner. The only stipulation was that if the computer said a stike had happened in such and such a sector, all the people there had to report to the disintigration chamber.

Of course one of the leaders was really hot and Captain Kirk felt a little loin stirring for her. He then proceeded to break the first rule of the Federation (like they did pretty much every week) and tried to pursuade her that it was a waste and their planet could live in peace if they wanted to.

But I digress...

[ThinkRate]

The BBC are saying that 90 Greek pilots have been lost in mock dog fights over the past 30 years..... scary!

I don't know where the BBC get their numbers from, the figure is actually 5. This includes airmen lost in action (ie during an "episode" as opposed to during solo training) in the last 15 years. And this includes the crew of 3 of the Huey that crashed on the night of the Imia incident in 1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia/Kardak) when the two countries actually got to the verge of warfare. I believe there is an equal number of tragic loss on the Turkish side.

I apologise for chipping in into this thread and for violating my personal principle of "no-politics" in public forums such as this one. With all due respect to the Turkish side, I shall try and be as impartial and low-key as the seriousness of the situation warrants.

Episodes like this are very common over the Eastern Aegean. Practically, a daily occurrence that runs in the dozens every month. There are two types of air incidents: a) national airspace violations and b) ATC violations (no FP filing, no recognition of Athina FIR).

A fairly adequate presentation of the "conflict" and the reasons behind it can be found here: The Aegean Dispute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute)

Greek fighters are therefore routinely scrambled to intercept and identify the intruding Turkish fighters. Most of the time, tactical dogfights take place. The two sides seem to have developed a kind of set of rules of engagement; no weapons are used (most of the time the jets are not even armed). When the "enemy" looses the tactical advantage or gets locked-in, the "fight" ends and the players leave the theater. As those of you who do this sort of thing for a living can imagine, it is not very difficult for things to occasionally "go wrong", especially since emotions and adrenaline run so high and crews operate under constant stress and fatigue on endless 24 hour stand-by's and 2 minute "readiness".

This latest tragic incident involved a formation of 3 Turkish jets (1 photographic RF4 and 2 escorting F16s) that allegedly attempted to overfly Crete and photograph Greek mobile defense sites (namely SS-300 and TOR M1 missile sites). They were intercepted by 2 Greek F16s from Souda bay. Allegedly, the incident took place while the Greek jets were trailing the formation trying to take their numbers down as is part of their identification routine. It is yet unclear as to how the two jest collided.

Following the incident, the Turkish side also tried to make a point of not recognising Greek SAR authority in these international waters (despite the incident taking place well within the Athina FIR jurisdiction according to ICAO 1950's rullings); the (armed?) Turkish pilot violently refused to board the Greek Super Puma that was scrambled to the scene and waited for a Turkish Cougar to arrive instead.

Hot and very high level negotiations took place between the two countries before the Turkish helicopter was "allowed" (?) to pick their pilot up from the commercial ship. There is as yet no sign of the Greek pilot and the search is about to be called off.

There is only one qualitative, brief comment I would like to make: Greece is actually Turkey's closest (if not the "only") ally within Europe in Turkey's difficult quest to join the EU. Greece's strategy actually aims for a strong, viable and "healthy", "European" Turkey that would stabilise the region instead of playing bully, often due to internal problems. Incidents and unfriendly behaviour such as this one do no one any favours and take the whole process several steps backward.

TR
------------------------------
ThinkRate! ThinkRate! Don't Think

[G-LOST]

Thank you ThinkRate for such an informative and unbiased post. Very interesting!

LOST

[Confucius]

Does this mean the cost of Ouzo will hit the roof.:rolleyes:

Probably a good thing. I 'remember' drinking nothing but the stuff one night a few years back. Never, ever, bloody anything, ever.

[7gcbc]

Are Hellenic Air Force pilots well regarded?


Yes.

:ok:

[flyboy2]

Athens - A Greek inquiry into a mid-air collision between Greek and Turkish fighter planes this week blamed Turkish pilot error, said a Greek official on Friday.
The country also confirmed the death of its pilot.
The Turkish plane "rammed into the Greek aircraft overhead following a wrong manoeuvre by the Turkish pilot", said a top Greek defence ministry official.
The Greek pilot "was killed on the spot".
The Greek army announced the Greek pilot was missing on Tuesday, and said searches would continue around the island of Carpathos, in the southeast Aegean Sea, where the incident took place, until "at least" Friday.
The Turkish pilot managed to eject from the plane and was uninjured.
Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis told the country's parliament on Friday that Greece had rapidly defused "a dangerous situation" and expressed his sadness at the loss of the Greek pilot's life.
Fighting over air space
According to Athens, the Greek F-16 was on a reconnaissance mission after the Turkish planes - two F-16s and one F-4 - had penetrated the Athens flight information region, the flight zone overseen by the Athens airport control tower.
On Wednesday, Turkey's military said the Greek fighter jet had "harassed" the Turkish plane and crashed into it.
The military said the Turkish plane was in international Mediterranean airspace and not the Aegean.
At the core of the dispute lies Greece's claim of an airspace extending 16km around its coastline. Turkey recognises only six miles, arguing that under international rules Greece's airspace cannot go beyond the extent of its territorial waters.
In his address to parliament, Karamanlis said the process of Turkey joining the European Union called for "normalising Greek-Turkish relations" and respect for European and international law.
News24/AFP