Tourist dies in fall from helicopter

[Heliport]

US tourist dies in fall from helicopter

22 May 2006 http://www.stuff.co.nz/inl/images/null.gif
An American tourist fell 300m to his death after stepping out of a helicopter and plummeting down a steep bluff this afternoon in the Southern Alps before the horrified gaze of his hunting companions.

Constable Phil Vink from the Wanaka police said the middle-aged man was one of three hunters in a helicopter, which landed about 3pm on a ridge at Albert Burn, about 7km south of the head of Lake Wanaka – not at Albert Town, as was earlier reported.

"I believe one person had already jumped out of the helicopter, when this gentleman stepped down and somehow slipped and fell over the bluff," he said.

The pilot immediately flew down to where the man had fallen but was unable to land.

However, Mr Vink said those on board could clearly see the man was dead.
An alpine rescue team, including one police officer, flew to the area this afternoon in an attempt to retrieve the body, but bad weather stopped them from landing.
They will return tomorrow.

[ems300]

that is not good to hear!!:{
The search has been held of because of fog!! thats about all the info at this stage!!

[ems300]

Fog hampers attempts to retrieve tourist's body
23 May 2006

Fog this morning delayed alpine rescue efforts to retrieve the body of an American tourist who fell 300m to his death after stepping out of a helicopter and plummeting down a steep bluff in the Southern Alps.


Wanaka Detective Derek Shaw an initial check by staff this morning decided it was too foggy to send out a rescue team.

Checks would continue to be made every half hour to evaluate whether it was safe to proceed,

The middle-aged man was one of three hunters in a helicopter, which landed about 3pm on a ridge at Albert Burn, about 7km south of the head of Lake Wanaka, yesterday afternoon.

One person had already jumped out of the helicopter, when the American stepped down and somehow slipped and fell over the bluff.

The pilot immediately flew down to where the man had fallen but was unable to land.

However, those on board could clearly see the man was dead.

An alpine rescue team, including one police officer, flew to the area yesterday in an attempt to retrieve the body, but bad weather stopped them from landing.

Mr Shaw said the dead man's family had wanted to contact their family in the United States about the death and had asked for no further assistance from the police.

[Heliport]

New Zealand Herald report

Hunter slipped exiting helicopter

Wednesday May 24, 2006


The US tourist who plunged to his death after stepping out of a helicopter in the Southern Alps was the seventh foreigner to die this year while visiting national parks.

Police retrieved the body of Clifford Wayne Senter, 57, of New Hampshire, yesterday.

Mr Senter was killed when he tripped and fell down a steep bluff on Monday while chamois hunting near Lois Peak in the Mt Aspiring National Park.

Wanaka Search and Rescue coordinator, Sergeant Aaron Nicholson, said Mr Senter had been in New Zealand for the past week on a hunting holiday, with his wife and two friends.

They had intended to travel to Australia yesterday.

Mr Senter, his friend and a local hunting guide had left Wanaka by helicopter about 2.30pm on Monday.

They spotted chamois in the head of the valley, and the pilot landed on a small flat outcrop.

However, when Mr Senter stepped out of the machine, he slipped and slid down the slope with no chance of holding his fall.

Low cloud and fog prevented a search and rescue team from reaching him on Monday night. A recovery team was deployed first thing yesterday and located his body at the base of the bluff in the afternoon.

He had sustained very serious head and body injuries. A post mortem examination would be done today.

Meanwhile, the dead man's wife was still in Wanaka, and was expecting family from the United States to join her shortly.

The case had been handed over to the coroner and police had also advised the Civil Aviation Authority.

[CYHeli]

I have a number of thoughts about this. Without trying to 'out' myself, I was previously the Secretary of a State Deer Hunting Association and, of course, I'm a helicopter pilot. I have conducted heli-hunting trips.

How far do we take our briefings (without trying to blame the pilot)? How far do we brief a passenger before we land or after landing about a particular confined area or dangerous spot? How much do we test the dextrity of a passenger before we let them get themselves, gear and a rifle on and off a helicopter? Was age and experience a factor?

How much is plain bad luck when a bloke slips on a wet patch of ground? If there wasn't a helicopter involved, it would be easy to say it was just bad luck. But there is a helicopter involved. It could happen anywhere; heli-hunting, heli-skiing, heli-fishing...

Life is a risk. My condolences to the family, :( and the pilot.

[ems300]

cy heli,
you can do all the breifing and practice you want with hunting clients, but sometimes you just can't help things!! there are always varibles in this kind of work. Most of the clients don't get there gear out now, that is done by the guide, as they should be very familiar with how to do this safely, (one would hope)
You are right when you say, How much is plain bad luck when a bloke slips on a wet patch of ground? If there wasn't a helicopter involved, it would be easy to say it was just bad luck. But there is a helicopter involved.
In this instance it is just straight out bad luck!!! even with a helicopter involved.
My thoughts anyway!!
we can only hope that these things never happen to us and it must be b:mad: dy awful for all concerned and best of luck to them all!!!

[Davey Emcee]

chamois 1---- animal killer 0

[Lama Bear]

"In nature there are neither rewards nor punishments - there are consequences."

Robert Ingersoll

[Rotorchick]

There was no way a United States tourist could have survived a 300m fall down a rocky bluff near Wanaka, police said yesterday.

American hunter Clifford Wayne Senter, 57, of New Hampshire, fell to his death when he left a helicopter and plunged down the bluff at Albert Burn, 6km north- east of Wanaka, at about 3pm on Monday.
Police retrieved his body yesterday.
Sergeant Aaron Nicholson, of Wanaka, said Senter, a friend, and a local hunting guide travelled to the area by helicopter on Monday afternoon and sighted chamois in the valley.
"The helicopter pilot positioned the party on a small outcrop so they could shoot the chamois and when Mr Senter exited the helicopter he slipped on the wet ground and started to slide down the slope with no chance of holding his fall," he said.
"It was clear the fall was not survivable as he had sustained very serious head and body injuries."
Alpine Cliff Rescue team leader Gary Dickson, who helped police retrieve the body yesterday, said the ledge was a reasonable landing spot for a helicopter but the ground nearby was mainly slippery rock with bits of tussock.
"It was an unfortunate accident," Dickson said. "Somehow he's slipped off there. When you do start sliding you've got no way of stopping yourself."
Civil Aviation Authority spokesman Bill Sommer said it was an unusual accident. The authority would investigate but it was not expected anybody would visit the site.
The authority hoped to clarify whether Senter slipped from the helicopter skid or the ground.
"Whenever there's an accident or incident like this the pilots will fill out a report form. We use that information and if we want anything further we go back to them," he said.
Senter's wife did not go out with the hunting party. Yesterday, she was still in Wanaka where she was expecting family from the United States to join her.
Low cloud and fog enveloped the valley on Monday, preventing police from reaching the body, but it was a straightforward operation yesterday, Dickson said.
Police officers were able to walk to Senter's body at the bottom of the bluff and connect it to a strop on the helicopter.
Digital photos had been taken of the scene, which would allow police to more accurately establish the distance of the fall.

[B Sousa]

They keep calling this a Steep Bluff... How about a ****ing sheer cliff.. You can walk down a Steep Bluff.... 300 meter drop is another story.
Never hunted down there, but I dont think I want someone having me step out that close to a "Steep Bluff"

[Heliport]

NZ Herald

Police still in doubt about how hunter fell to death

Thursday May 25, 2006

It is still not clear how American hunter Clifford Senter fell to his death in the Southern Alps.
Wanaka police are unable to confirm whether the 57-year-old slipped down a steep bluff as he left a helicopter or lost his footing after leaving the machine.
The Civil Aviation Authority has appointed Harold Carter to investigate the circumstances surrounding his death.
Mr Senter, from Plaistow, New Hampshire, fell 300m down a steep bluff while hunting for chamois after the helicopter had delivered his hunting party of three to a ledge in the Albert Burn Valley on Monday.
Detective Constable Derek Shaw, of Wanaka, said Mr Senter was the second member of the hunting party to leave the helicopter after guide Rachel Stewart, of Leithen Valley Trophy Hunts.
Mr Shaw said the police were still trying to find exactly where Mr Senter had fallen.
Witnesses would need to be questioned again before any recommendation could be made to the coroner.
Civil Aviation Authority communications adviser Bill Sommer said Mr Carter would conduct a routine investigation from Wellington focused on the standard accident form filled out by operators after any flying accident.
Mountain guide Gary Dickson, said the ledge was a normal drop-off area.

[ZK-Pilot]

With you Davey. Pretty unfair advantage using a helo for hunting.:=

[Flying Lawyer]

That's interesting.
I thought Davey's comment was cheap and deserving of contempt.

[skidbiter]

With you Davey. Pretty unfair advantage using a helo for hunting.:=
If it was not for venison recovery/ live capture/ flying punters into inaccessable areas for a shot, many operators within the industry would not exist, you dumb fixed-wing tosser.

[SASless]

Civil Aviation Authority spokesman Bill Sommer said it was an unusual accident. The authority would investigate but it was not expected anybody would visit the site.
The authority hoped to clarify whether Senter slipped from the helicopter skid or the ground.
"Whenever there's an accident or incident like this the pilots will fill out a report form. We use that information and if we want anything further we go back to them," he said.

Now folks, there is one very good investigation for you.

"I say Neville, bit of bother that, be the good chap and send us a postcard will ya?"

Someone gets killed....and you don't go to the site to see what it looks like and compare that site inspection to the accounts given by the participants?

[bell hater]

Slowdown there skid biter, return the catch on that handbag of yours sure deer recovery started a lot of operations; some would say (me included) that today we now have a hangover from that day (i.e. to many operators fighting for too little work, helicopter rates in the toilet with pilots working for 5/8ths of f%#k all). While I agree that every opportunity should be taken to kill deer in the wild (in NZ) I have myself taken hunting trips in where we drop the hunter (or so called) and a guide on a knoll and then I fly off and literally muster the animal towards the hunter. Once I am out of the way and the animal is running towards the ambush as significant speed the ‘hunter’ takes the shot. No very sporting eh ‘old chap’

[ZK-Pilot]

If it was not for venison recovery/ live capture/ flying punters into inaccessable areas for a shot, many operators within the industry would not exist, you dumb fixed-wing tosser.

With all the technology and high powered rifles/scopes around today, one would think you would need less skills and opportunity than years gone by to shoot an animal obviously miles away from civilisation and not bothering anyone, not more.:ugh: Sounds like trying to prove how big your donga is (or isn't) to me.
Fixed wing yes.... But mainly twin rotary these days:D

[Davey Emcee]

Flying Lawyer.
My point was not meant to be cheap or contemptuous.
The point is, anyone so determined to spend time, money and so much effort to kill any animal should either be better equipped, better trained or be prepared to take whatever comes their way.

[tecpilot]

skidbiter,

in the most european countries hunting with helicopters, means shooting from the helicopter or herding animals to the shooters or traps is strictly prohibited because of hunting and not aerial laws!

[ems300]

bell hater,

i do agree with you on the remarks about skidbiter, the good ol venison days did bring the industry to life in nz, and there are now a s:mad: tload of operators and bugger all work and people working for f all as you say!!
but there is also a big market at the moment in doing these types of hunts for clients, i have done them and they are great fun flying wise, but they aren't very sporting but sometimes money is money,you know obviously what it is like if you have done them before, the biggest concern is to get miles away before they start blazzing at the animal and there is lead flying in every direction apart from where the animal actually is!!:eek:
There are no laws prohibiting the hunting of animals form helicopters in nz, but somehow i think after this incident that something might change that, if you actually work out the number of people going out there and doing that kind of hunting compared to the amount of incidents then there is actually f all incidents!!!:E :ok:

[Te_Kahu]

Greenstone theft puts pilot in jail
31 May 2006
By DEBBIE JAMIESON

Two years after he was charged with the theft of West Coast greenstone, helicopter pilot Harvey Hutton yesterday began an 18-month jail sentence.

Judge John MacDonald refused Hutton bail despite a draft appeal being lodged against his convictions on two representative counts of stealing greenstone between 1997 and 2004.

He also ordered Hutton to pay $300,000 in reparation to the rightful owners of the greenstone (pounamu), Te Runanga o Ngai Tahu, and that high-quality upland stone confiscated from Hutton by police be given to the Runanga.

Runanga chief executive Tahu Potiki later said he was pleased the justice system had upheld Ngai Tahu's property rights, although he would like to have seen a different type of reparation.

"But at the moment we're satisfied we are in a position to protect the pounamu resource that belongs to Ngai Tahu."

The illegal theft of greenstone from the West Coast and subsequent investigations and criminal trials had delayed the beginnings of a Ngai Tahu-driven greenstone industry and that lost opportunity had cost an estimated 60 full-time jobs and nearly $2 million, he said.

The judge earlier told the Dunedin District Court, where the gallery was packed with Hutton's family and supporters, that it had been extremely difficult to assess the appropriate level of reparation.

The Crown contended Hutton owed more than $1m for the theft of 40 tonnes of greenstone.

Defence counsel Colin Withnall said evidence had shown only 20 tonnes had been stolen and Hutton, who still denied the theft, owed no more than $115,000 based on the evidence. However, he offered to pay $300,000.

Sentencing Hutton was difficult be-cause the case was unique and Hutton would be out of place in a prison, the judge said.

"Without wanting to overstate matters, it's quite clear in your search-and-rescue work that you have saved lives and often in heroic and trying circumstances.

"I can say unreservedly that you being in the community enhances the safety of the community. That is ironical."

The judge also heard Hutton had helped police locate a crashed helicopter that went missing in Mount Aspiring National Park in March and had contrib-uted to his community through his tourism business, Depart-ment of Conservation wildlife programmes, and even fundrais-ing at local cake stalls.

A large bundle of testi-monials given to the court included one signed by 16 Kaumatua and 34 members of the Makaawhio Runanga, the South-Westland Runanga that represents the area from where Hutton took greenstone.

The members were concerned that Hutton's inability to operate his helicopter company could adversely affect already limited employment and job opportunities in the area, it said.

However, the judge said Hutton's theft had been carefully planned with a high level of premeditation and had taken place over several years.

"I have to take the view that you were in it for the money," he said. "Because of the fact of the offending and value of the pro-perty involved I do not see that I can res-ponsibly impose any other sentence except imprisonment. Anything else would be quite inadequate in these circumstances."

Hutton was granted leave to apply for home detention in the Dunedin area.

[Te_Kahu]

Copter legend faces tough penalties
28 May 2006
By MARY JANE BOLAND

A Central Otago pilot involved in a hunting trip which left an American tourist dead faces forfeiture of his helicopter and property after a court conviction for stealing greenstone.


Makarora pilot Harvey Hutton will be sentenced in Dunedin District Court on Tuesday after last year being found guilty of stealing more than 10,000kg of greenstone from Ngai Tahu property on the West Coast between 1997 and 2004.

Crown solicitor Robin Bates said he would be seeking forfeiture of Hutton's chopper and property under proceeds of crime laws.

Hutton's lawyer, Colin Withnall, QC, said it was inappropriate to comment before sentencing.

Hutton is something of a legend in Central Otago. He has run hunting trips for 30 years, and operates several tourism ventures - including jetboating - from Makarora, 65km north of Wanaka. His helicopter hunting expeditions go into remote alpine terrain.

Police are investigating Monday's hunting trip, in which New Hampshire plumbing company owner Clifford Wayne Senter, 57, died after he slipped about 300m down a cliff in Mt Aspiring National Park.

Police are trying to clarify whether Senter slipped as he was getting out of the chopper, piloted by Hutton, or after he was on the ground.

AdvertisementAdvertisementHutton's wife, Patsy, said her husband had nothing to say about the Crown's attempts to claim his helicopter and their property.

Civil Aviation Authority safety investigator Harold Carter hoped to receive more information from police this week to determine if his agency needed to investigate. It depended on whether Senter was on the helicopter when he slipped. If the CAA investigated, it would assess whether the spot was suitable for a helicopter to set down passengers.

Johnston said the area where the helicopter landed was rugged alpine terrain.

Senter's close friend, Nelson Rapanot, was in the helicopter when the accident occurred.

He and Senter, and their wives, were on their first trip to New Zealand.

Speaking from Plaistow, New Hampshire, Senter's sister-in-law Sandra Senter said Rapanot had told them it was slippery in the area because of snow and recent rain.

"The wind rocked the helicopter a little bit and he lost his footing. (Nelson) tried to grab him and his fingers slipped through him."

The family did not blame anyone for the death, she said. "Accidents happen for whatever reason... Cliffy had been hunting for long enough that he wouldn't have let them do something unsafe."

Clifford and Linda Senter had travelled the world on golf and hunting expeditions, bringing home many hunting trophies.

He had a room dedicated to his hunting trophies and had already caught a thar in New Zealand which he planned to mount on a wall alongside the chamois he and Rapanot were chasing when the accident happened.

Sandra Senter said Clifford Senter's wife Linda had been unable to talk since the accident

[ems300]

yep, not a good couple of weeks for him!!!:{

[B Sousa]

OK, for some of us uneducated. What is Greenstone......Sounds like a squabble between palefaces and tribals.....

[ems300]

greenstone is a type of stone (funny enough), they use it for making jewllery and stone carvings, the ancient maroi used it as weapons and it is now worth a bit of money!!! especially now that the maroi's didn't have to pay to get this lot lifted out!!:E

[Bushbandit]

And worth more after the NZ goverment gave them the land that goes with it... The best stuff is found around the cascade river on the west coast .Thats where i got my lot from .:=

[Te_Kahu]

B. Sousa
I
It is a type of nephrite jade. It is extremely hard and as EMS says ideal for making jewellery. The NZ jade (pounamu) is prized of its deep dark green colour.

Yes, you are correct there is an element of the tribals vs palefaces. However, it is more a case of theft of property.

The Government vested ownership of pounamu to the local Maori tribe as part of its settlement of claims related to land confiscation and alienation.

Before that it was deemed to be owned by the Crown. It was able to be mined and sold under licence. There was never a situation where people could just go and help themselves - despite the fact that some did just that.
TK

[ems300]

te_kahu. you can actually go and get it as long as you can carry it!!!
The Government vested ownership of pounamu to the local Maori tribe as part of its settlement of claims related to land confiscation and alienation.
the3 only alienation was when the white boys did finish the job properly years ago!!!

[Te_Kahu]

ems 300

Correct, I was referring to commercial extraction.

What job? What white boys?

TK

[Bushbandit]

I think what ems300 means is when the European arrived they didn't kill all the maoris out .And if they did do it job right the first time , none of this would of happened. I think that the a great % of NZers are sick of the goverment giving out hand outs left , right and center to the maori.

[B Sousa]

Looks like Te_Kahu lit the fire when he deemed it necessary to mention that the Government Robe Wearers have sacraficed another paleface to appease the Gods........
Anyway, its the same song from another place. We have it here in the U.S., Canada has theirs, its rampant now in South Africa.
I now know what greenstone is... and Im sure it wont be long for the PC Mods here jump in as a Non Politically Correct Hijacking of the thread may be in progress.
Back to the Poor Soul who walked off the 300 meter "Steep Bluff"

[Te_Kahu]

B Sousa
Well said.
I didn't intend to light a fire which took the thread completely away from anthing at all to do with Rotorheads.

It does seem that a couple of my countrymen are a tad aggrieved. Sadly ill informed but aggrieved none the less.

TK

........"Back to the Poor Soul who walked off the 300 meter "Steep Bluff" "

[Hughesy]

Well said BushBandit!! Well said.
But as B Sousa said, lets get back to the proper topic guys.
RIP
Hughesy

[Bushbandit]

Thanks hughesy. I look at this accident as just that , A unfortuante accident .People that venture in to the back country of any place in the world know the risk involved .I feel the problem in this case , That the people that go on guide hunt's in some parts of NZ do not have a great lot of experince in this sort of terrain .
The terrain where the accident happened is rugged with gaint bluffs ,ice and snow .As someone stated on this thread , "if it didnt involve a Chopper who would really care .
Hard luck Harvey . You be back just as strong .

[SASless]

Bert,

Up in Alaska many Moons ago...there was one place near Galena that was right for slinging off unworked tailings from a very productive gold mine. Plan was to stop by on the empty back haul and grab a load and drop them at a stream bed close to the work site and work it during the off season. Only thing that stopped us was the concept of Alaskan justice being much quicker than the legal system when way out in the bush.

Don't you just love the helicopter business....I am sure you know a crook or two from your travels.

[B Sousa]

"I am sure you know a crook or two from your travels." Nothing but honest folks........ha ha.
I know of Galena........

[Rotorchick]

ems300

I am appalled at your ignorance, learn how to spell maori before you start slagging them.

........"Back to the Poor Soul who walked off the 300 meter "Steep Bluff" "

[soupisgoodfood]

I think what Bushbandit meant to say was: "Since I'm a white supremacist, I think we should have slaughtered all the Maori when we had the chance, then we wouldn't have had to deal with all of their complaints regarding the British Empire stealing their land."

[Bronx]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/BronxNYC/hunting.jpg

[SASless]

Deer/Elk/Moose done as Country style steak, mashed potatoes, Green beans, carrots........hmmmmmmm Good!

Rabbit done on the Webber, deep fried Wild Turkey, squirrel pie, fried Dove and cheese grits, now we are talking!

[Pandalet]

what on Earth is a cheese grit?

Also, "salad isn't food, salad is what food eats" :E

[SASless]

It is GritS dear fellow. A Southern delicacy at times and always a basic food for breakfast with your Country Ham, Redeye Gravy, and Buttermilk Biscuits.


Grits is a type of maize porridge and a food common in the Southern United States, East Africa (where it is called Ugali in Swahili) and southern Manchuria (where it is called Gezi in Chinese) consisting of coarsely ground corn, traditionally by a stone mill. The results are passed through screens, with the finer part being corn meal, and the coarser being grits. Many communities in the South had a gristmill until the mid-20th century, with families bringing their own corn to be ground, and the miller retaining a portion of the corn for his fee. Grits aficionados still prefer stone ground grits, although modern milling tends to prefer faster methods.

The word "grits" comes from Old English grytta meaning a coarse meal of any kind. Yellow grits include the entire kernel, while white grits use hulled kernels. Grits are prepared by simply boiling into a porridge; normally they are boiled until enough water evaporates to leave them semi-solid however. They are traditionally served at breakfast, but can also be used at any meal.

Hominy grits is another term for grits.

Grits are also similar to farina.

[Pandalet]

ah, so basically what SA folks call pap? As made from mielie meal?

Thanks, old girl! ;)

[noooby]

Soupisgoodfood, why do you say 'their land'?? Were the Maori the first in NZ?? They certainly aren't native to New Zealand anymore than I am. Their ancestors arrived by boat, as did mine. Yes there are some issues where I agree that the Maori have a case for grievances, but quite a few Maori use the words native and indigenous to get things their own way, when those words really don't apply at all.
New Zealand is not a racially happy country at times. Everybody but the Maori want New Zealand to be multi-cultural. A large proportion of Maori want New Zealand to be bi-cultural; Maori, and the rest.
The fact is that people should be angry when money given as reparations to Maori is squandered on 'Think Big' projects that don't work and waste lots of said money (remember that university up north??), or, when a tribal leader appoints nearly all of his family members to boards governing the use of the money they received. That money is supposed to be used for the betterment of the tribe, not the greedy bastages at the top stealing all the dosh!!
The one glaring exception to this would be Ngai Tahu in the South Island. They have recruited the best people they can to run their organisation as a for-profit business. While I may not necessarily agree with everything that they do, I do applaude their efforts to put the many before the one.
Back to the topic :)
Having property in the Mackenzie, I can imagine how easy it is to fall a long way down a bluff. The hill at the back of my place has a slope angle of 32 degrees, and that is bad enough!!
Sasless, if the guy wasn't in, on, or touching said helicopter at the time of the accident, why should the CAA go and visit the accident site?? Would be more of a Police or Coroners job I would have thought.
How is the snow down under just now?? I hate missing yet another ski season :*

[B Sousa]

Nooby, sounds like your talking about Canada or the States.........
Anyway........."the guy wasn't in, on, or touching said helicopter at the time of the accident" That could be true and it sounds like correct. He was BETWEEN the helicopter and the bottom of the 300 meter "steep Bluff""
Too close to call for us mere mortals, If those in positions of authority deem it and accident we have to go along with it....

[SASless]

Nooby,

If he was in the process of getting off the helicopter or other passengers were getting off the helicopter while the aircraft was hovering or doing a one skid or toe in landing to facilitate that evolution, I would suggest the CAA has every reason to get involved. If the passengers had disembarked, the helicopter departed....then the poor sod took a fatal tumble then that would be a different matter.

[soupisgoodfood]

Soupisgoodfood, why do you say 'their land'?? Were the Maori the first in NZ?? They certainly aren't native to New Zealand anymore than I am. Their ancestors arrived by boat, as did mine. Yes there are some issues where I agree that the Maori have a case for grievances, but quite a few Maori use the words native and indigenous to get things their own way, when those words really don't apply at all...

You're right, but just because the Maori did it the uncivilised way, many centuries ago, that doesn't mean that the British had to (and they generally didn't). And since the Maori are still here, there is a chance to correct things. Of course, just how many cases are legit, and how many just want to make some $$$ is another issue all together. But I think it's important that the distinction is made. Anyway, enough on this subject, I think we can all agree.

[Heliport]

Ah yes, helicopters and animals in the wild ~



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/Bears.jpg



Picture originally posted by Canadian Rotorhead.

[ems300]

noooby, you hit the nail right on the head there about the maori.
There isn't mush snow down here yet, but one field is allready open!!! go dobo!!
The hill where this guy was getting off makes the hill faces in the mackenzie look flatish!! what hill do you have out the back of your place that is 32 degrees?
I think the caa will get into this one, as the guide was out, one of the clients where getting outor just out(the one that fell), and one was still in the helicopter waiting to get out.so sasless is correct in what he pointed out.
Unfortuantly this guy is having a s:mad: t of a couple of weeks with this accident and then the court case. but no matter how well you prepare you and the passengers you sometimes can't help some things. It will be very interesting to see what does happen out of this in the end.
best way to deal with animals around helicopters!!:E
SHOOT THEM!!

[BlueWolf]

Harvey Hutton shouldn't be in jail for the simple reason that Ngai Tahu should never have been awarded possession of the greenstone in the first place.

The Treaty of Waitangi never applied to the South Island. Hobson annexed it irresepective of the Treaty. Ngai Tahu were given sole rights to all the greenstone in the South Island as part of a Treaty settlement to which they were never entitled.

The south-westalnd ruanangadid sign a copy of the Treaty which specifically gave them possession of their greenstone; this was disregarded by the Waitangi Tribunal, who regarded the ruananga as being part of Ngai Tahu despite both parties denying this.

Funnily enough it was the south-westland ruananga who have supported Hutton through all this.

In any event the greenstone in question was mined from Hutton's legitimate claim which had been granted before the Treaty settlement process came into effect, and which was exempt from it.

Hutton didn't steal valuable greenstone from anyone. He mined and transported large rocks from a legal source.

[JezusNut]

Just in....


Chopper pilot 'flying like a maniac' - witness
A Central Otago helicopter pilot whose trophy-hunting passenger fell to his death when the helicopter put down near a 164m bluff, was ''flying like a maniac'' before the incident, a witness told a Queenstown inquest.

United States hunter Clifford Wayne Senter, 57, was killed on May 22, 2006 when he fell down the bluff near Wanaka, after stepping out of the helicopter.
Senter, his friend Nelson Rapanot and their wives were on a guided expedition with Leithen Valley Trophy Hunts, the Southland Times reported today.
Back Country Helicopters pilot Harvey Hutton and guide Rachel Stewart had taken the party hunting for chamois on the day of the accident.
Giving evidence by satellite video link from Hawaii yesterday, Rapanot said he was surprised Hutton had decided to fly in poor conditions.
Rapanot said he had been assured Hutton was the best pilot around.
Rapanot said he didn't like the aggressive way Mr Hutton flew when they spotted a chamois.
"That guy was flying like a maniac,'' he told coroner Ian Macalister.
Rapanot said he regretted not giving Mr Hutton "an earful''.
Rapanot and Senter's widow, Linda Senter, asked why the pilot had chosen the landing site and descended at the angle he did.
Macalister said he would put their questions to Hutton when he gave evidence today.

[Heliringer]

And Rapanot is a helicopter pilot with how much experience? They know the limits of the Helicopter? Or were they just passengers on a hunt, along for the ride?
Cheers

Ringer

I wonder if the Chamois has a trophy room

[albatross]

What does the pilot's flying skills have to do with the fact the Victim fell to his death AFTER stepping out of the Helicopter?
What "poor" conditions?

reading between the lines, but not knowing all the facts, could this be more of a: "Great White Hunter falls off cliff - family seaks reason to litigate anybody they can."

I used to fly hunters in my fixed wing floatplane daze - not my favourite group to deal with.

[Scissorlink]

"Maniac??" Sitting in a Machine IFR middle of the night doing an EMS job would scare the Living S**T out of me...Chasing a Chamois in the hills with Hutton at the controls wouldn't bother me the slightest...its all about what your used to !!


SL

[Seymour Belvoir]

"That guy was flying like a maniac,'' he told coroner Ian Macalister.

What sort of pilot's licence does this chap have to qualify him to judge piloting skills? Sounds like a bit of a Wanaka to me.

[albatross]

Just noticed the date of the events.
Just curious but why is this coming out now when it happened nearly 2 years ago?
I still wonder why the flying is even being questioned at the inquest when the victim fell down a cliff.

[Heli-Jock]

Great stuff, keep up the good work, best quote ive seen for ages.:D

Shame about the punter who fell of the cliff tho.Sounds like the hunting party are out to sue someone!

HJ

[topendtorque]

Just curious but why is this coming out now when it happened nearly 2 years ago?



I don't know if it's the same in NZ as OZ but it's common to wait anything up to three years and more for aviation related coronials over here. Very hard on all concerned. Aviation seems to be low on the priorities list.

[Aesir]

Sitting in a Machine IFR middle of the night doing an EMS job would scare the Living S**T out of me...

Good point ´Scissorlink´ :D

[Gotagivitago]

The following article is copied from www.nzherald.co.nz,

Helicopter pilot denies 'flying like a maniac'
6:00AM Wednesday February 27, 2008

A Central Otago helicopter pilot whose trophy-hunting passenger fell to his death when the helicopter put down near a steep bluff has denied accusations of "flying like a maniac".

Pilot Harvey Hutton was giving evidence on the second day of an inquest for American hunter Clifford Wayne Senter, 57, who was killed on May 22, 2006 when he fell down a 164m cliff face near Wanaka after stepping out of the helicopter.

Mr Senter, his friend Nelson Rapanot and their wives were on a guided expedition with Leithen Valley Trophy Hunts.

Giving evidence by video link at the inquest before coroner Ian Macalister in the Queenstown Coroner's Court on Monday, Mr Rapanot said he didn't like the aggressive way Mr Hutton flew when they spotted a chamois.

"That guy was flying like a maniac," he told the coroner.

Mr Rapanot said he'd regretted not giving Mr Hutton an "earful" about his flying.

But Mr Hutton said yesterday that was the first comment he'd heard about his flying and it was inaccurate, the Southland Times reported.


Rachel Stewart, who was guiding the hunt, said she didn't agree with Mr Rapanot's description of Mr Hutton's flying style. She did not notice anything unusual during the flight.

An emotional Ms Stewart had difficulty describing to the coroner the sequence of events leading up to Mr Senter's fall.

She said she assessed the area for hazards as the helicopter was landing but hadn't been aware of the steep cliff.

Ms Stewart said the biggest hazard was allowing both Mr Senter and Mr Rapanot to get out of the helicopter, which wasn't standard practice. She'd told both clients she didn't want them to get out, but they "demanded" to.

"I took my eye off Cliff to unload Nelson and that's where it all went wrong," she said.

"There is no way I would ever unload a second person again because that's where the accident happened."

The inquest is continuing.

There are usually at least two sides to every story:cool:

[dragman]

The richer and fatter they are, the more you have to remind them to remain seated until instructed. Sound familiar?

I bet he was wearing a cap. And white socks. Fat foxtrot

[Heli-Jock]

The richer and fatter they are, the more you have to remind them to remain seated until instructed. Sound familiar?

I bet he was wearing a cap. And white socks. Fat foxtrot

Dragman

Absolutelly!
It never ceases to amaze me that despite giving safety briefings prior to every flight, the fatter, richer, more obnoxious members of our public, always think they know better!
I should point out that these ones are few and far between, but they do exist and the majority of pax are great to work with.
I had a bunch of them on a chartered heli lunch last year, after they'd been fed, watered and arrived at the heli more than an hour late, thot it would be funny to lift the door handle on one of the doors in the back, just to see what would happen! ! :=
At 2000ft and 110 kts, it wasnt funny!:mad:

H-J

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

Yeah but it not just rich c**ts that have issues around running helicopters, plenty of normally sane people get weird when you start the engines.

You say....."Dont walk down the back, dont raise your hands or anything else above your head, this is the way the door handle works, press to talk "etc etc etc
They hear...weeeeeeeeeeee

No one listens, they get all hyped up like their had too many wine biscuits and start pushing on controls and stomping on things, what a bunch of spastics!

I honestly think most people in the helicopter are there to kill themselves and take me with them.

[heli-cal]

Tuk Tuk BoomBoom,
As the brother of a person whom had the misfortune to be born with a medical condition by which he was referred to as a spastic, and verbally and physically abused in public, I would very much appreciate it if you would edit that phrase from your post.

Thank you.

[topendtorque]

Certainly operating the tourist trade can be extremely unnerving. One is forever on one's toes just waiting for that nasty phone call, and when it happpens, as passengers it'll be the worlds smartest lawyers daughter on her honeymoon with the worlds richest man's son. says murphy.

However there is one sure indicator of a smart arse pilot.

No trade or lessening trade in a good market

nothing spreads faster than tourist talk.

the tourist trade is generally worse than being a dairy farmer
you must be there seven days a week, rain hail or shine, they can kick you, s**t on you like cows do, but they also ~ talk back.~ and believe that their watch is always one minute slower than yours.

[RadioSaigon]

I'm disgusted to see these accusations of HH "flying like a maniac". As others have said, this whole exercise reeks of yet another Yank out to make a quick dollar out of someone else's misfortune by way of a lawsuit. Need I point out that HH is one of the survivors of the wildest days of the venison heli-recovery of the 70's and 80's -no mean feat on its own, certainly not a period that any of the "maniacs" survived.

These quick little sound-bite throw-away lines that the media pounce on are exceedingly dangerous and harmful to the individual and the industry. What experience of heli-recovery does this individual have? To any average joe-punter, the mildest of heli-recovery manoeuvring would feel like the wildest ride on the planet. With no previous experience to draw on, these comments should be repudiated and totally disregarded.

I wonder if the victim followed instructions... or was he the architect of his own demise?

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

"I would very much appreciate it if you would edit that phrase from your post."

What, now you cant even say spastic?
I thought you couldnt say retard?

Well what do you call a guy that gets out of helicopter against instructions and walks off a cliff?
What about punters that get out of the machine wearing the headset and start walking off??
Etc etc etc

[Torquetalk]

What, now you cant even say spastic?
I thought you couldnt say retard?


Jesus. What do call a guy who thinks a polite request is something about being PC?

TT

[topendtorque]

Yes well we all know about retards, it's something from behind that helps start them recips an motorcars on those coldish mornings.

But as th---- are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

well how is anyone to know what's a hangin' behind the door. No need to get all uppity about something that's not apparant.

[dragman]

As reported by NZ regional newspaper, Mr Senter - apart from being a fat sepo, was arthritic, relatively unfit, and wearing un-appropriate footwear (soft rubber soled shoes).

With passengers like these, the kid gloves have to come off.

Poses a difficult situation for the companies involved.

[heli-cal]

TukTuk BoomBoom,
I respectfully requested that you edit that phrase from your post.

You respond with derision.

I believe that the nature of the statements directed against the elderly passenger are incompatible with the 'Professional Pilots' status of the Forum.

Irrespective of the perceived or actual wealth, health, personality, experience, clothing or intention of the deceased, there exists no basis to repeatedly refer to him in such intentionally malicious terms.

The elderly passenger is unable to speak on his own behalf as he fell 164 metres to his death, in front of his family and friends, from a cliff that appears to have been unknown to the Pilot and Guide.

The fact that these postings may be read by the family and friends of the deceased appears not to have occurred to those whom post.

Likewise, the fact that lawyers acting for the family or passengers may use the postings to illustrate the lack of professionalism and utter disregard for human life apparent within.

As may the media.

Both lawyers and media may ask why an experienced Pilot and Guide were unaware that an unguarded 164 metre cliff was within the stepping distance of their elderly unfit passenger at the chosen landing site.

The death of this man is a tragedy, please allow him some dignity in death.

[airmuster]

Don't you just love the joe public.

I've heard worse said about rotary and fixed wing mustering pilots from people who have absolutely no :mad: idea of what is going on. And the media just love it to be able to portray us as Rambo style pilots, especially when there is an accident.

HH was most likely just doing what he was asked to do by the terrorist.... sorry tourist.

[McGowan]

Spastic, retard or both, how is someone offended by this kind of word. It's not directed at the brother, it is used to describe someone who is trying to screw someone in this industry out of money. We should all know by now that those outside this industry don't really have much of a clue as to how it works, who is good, who is bad and who is average.
PC is just a wank. Why can we no longer tell the truth? Calling things as they are is now a crime. You can not speak your mind in case you "offend" some poor sole, even though you're not talking to them or about them. Bull**** as far as I'm concerned..............

[Senior Pilot]

OK, we've had the PC episode. Back on topic or this is going to end in tears.

[dragman]

I disagree there has been disregard for human life here, more frustration that yet again there has been another tragedy that could have been avoided. Whether walking into a tail rotor, up hill upon disembarking of falling over a bluff, it can all be avoided through communication of ALL on board the machine. If this thread brings the gravity of the situation to a new pilot (or any pilot for that matter) through jest or not, then it has achieved its aim.

I'm off for a beer. ciao.

[topendtorque]

The coronial is only round one.
Denegrating the driver, his crew and company, part of the theatre.
I suggest everyone buckles up their seat belts ~ real tight.

IMHO that IF the unfortunate gentleman fell, in front of his family and friends,
then one has to wonder how a driver could have flown like a maniac with a machine that had six people on board? (two hunters, their wives, a hosty and the driver, not to mention some heavy artillery and refreshments for sure.)

Had the others been landed there before, [without falling off] or is it regular to do quick stops and other critical maneuvering things at altiutude with fully loaded C30's or similar size donks?

[Senior Pilot]

TV3 NZ: (http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/National/Helicopterlandingsiteinvolvedinfatalfalltreacherous/tabid/423/articleID/50743/Default.aspx?ArticleID=50743)

Helicopter landing site involved in fatal fall 'treacherous'
Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:51a.m.

A landing site chosen by a helicopter pilot whose trophy-hunting passenger fell to his death in Central Otago was "very small" and "treacherous", an expert witness has testified at a Queenstown inquest.

Coroner Alan Macalister yesterday resumed his inquest into the death of American hunter Clifford Wayne Senter, 57, who was killed on May 22, 2006, when he fell down a 184-metre cliff face near Wanaka after stepping out of the helicopter.

Mr Senter, his friend Nelson Rapanot and wives were on a guided expedition with Leithen Valley Trophy Hunts in a helicopter flown by pilot Harvey Hutton.

Giving evidence yesterday, professional mountain and ski guide Gary Dickson, of Wanaka, said the landing site chosen for the hunting party to disembark was very small for three people and treacherous because of slippery conditions, the Otago Daily Times reported.

"I consider it fortunate that there were not further injuries or deaths of at least one or other members of this party that unloaded on to that site under those conditions that afternoon," Mr Dickson told the inquest.

The Wanaka Alpine Cliff Rescue Team leader was involved in efforts to recover Mr Senter's body and later visited the site as part of the investigation into the fatality.

Following the incident, Mr Dickson identified a list of nine safety issues and recommendations to avoid any similar incident, which he said yesterday were "preliminary findings" to help the police investigation.

His concerns included a lack of communication between hunting guide Rachel Stewart and Mr Hutton, the choice of landing site, the boots worn by Mr Senter, the loss of visual contact between Miss Stewart and Mr Senter moments before he fell, and guides being pressured to "cave in" on safety issues.

Mr Dickson also told Mr Macalister there was a need for a more objective and detailed investigation of the incident, either by himself, an agency such as the Civil Aviation Authority, or another independent organisation.

He said that included what role, if any, the hunting trip's "reward" method of payment - where pilots are paid only if clients successfully shot an animal - played in the tragedy.

Mr Macalister promised a "remorseless" examination of the facts.

He said he would adjourn the inquest at its conclusion to allow Mr Dickson to provide police with a list of his concerns.

The hearing, which sat initially for three days last month, continues today.

NZPA

[Brian Abraham]

Thanks for that SP. The two statements
guides being pressured to "cave in" on safety issues
and
"reward" method of payment - where pilots are paid only if clients successfully shot an animal
should provide all with plenty to ponder upon. :(