Low fuel state - Land immediately?

[genocchio]

Here is a question that I have for some of the more experienced drivers. I recently had a student who did a checkride and during the oral the examiner asked if what he would do in a low fuel situation. As per the POH he replied that he would land immediately. Hence if there was no immediate suitable area he would set it down in an area that might not be the best, but at least it would be controlled and with power. This was my understanding and what I teach.

The examiner had a different opinion. The examiner said that the correct procedure would be to land immediately if a suitable area was available. However if one were not available, it would be correct to maintain altitude (+1000ft) and then try and make you way to a suitable landing area, as there would be enough fuel for a few minutes (5min). If then along the way the fuel ran out, then do an autorotation.

Now, the question is which procedure would be correct to instruct initial students or even commercial applicants. I have looked and have found no official definition from the FAA on what land immediately actually implies, so I would guess it is open to some interpretation.
Views would be kindly welcome.
Thanks

(edited for poor spelling)

[3top]

I think here it would be time to teach your students to study their POH in detail!

It will tell you in some place how much time you have at MCP when the fuel light comes on!

E.g. Robinson tells you that you have fuel for another 8 min (insider info says its more like 12 min).

So, why would you scramble the helo if you still have some time to find a break?

3top:cool:

[John Eacott]

Nearly all manufacturer's Fllight Manuals/POH have a definition of their requirements for "Land Immediately" or "Land as soon as practicable". I would have expected that to be the criteria?

Assuming you're training on a Robinson, Frank's definitions can be found on the first page of the Emergency Procedures, Section 3:

Land Immediately - Land on the nearest clear area where a safe landing can be performed. Be prepared to enter autorotation during the approach, if required.

Land as soon as practical - Land at the nearest airport or other facility where emergency maintenance can be performed.

On the basis of your description of the examiner's response, I'd say that his interpretation matches Robinson's definition quite closely.

[Brian Abraham]

From an ops manual
Land Immediately The urgency of the landing is paramount to assure the survival of the occupants. Land in the ocean if these emergencies occur over water and other alternatives are not available.
Land as soon as possible Land without delay at the nearest suitable area (eg open field) at which a safe approach and landing is reasonably assured. These emergencies would not normally necessitate a water landing.
Land as soon as practical The duration of the flight and landing site are at the discretion of the pilot ie normally would necessitate a return to home base if over water.
Note - this is for a offshore operation

[SASless]

Rotorcraft Flight Manuals (RFM's) are full of nice information, some of which is permissive and some which is mandatory depending upon the section within it is found. (FAA system here) Thus problem solving has to start with the mandatory sections and work through the permissive. There is no exact right answer to some questions.

Scenario:

Night. Winter. North Sea. 150 NM from anywhere. Wind blowing a proper Hoolie (50 Knots or better). Sea State....huge steep breaking waves. OAT at the surface barely above freezing. Gear box light illuminates and pressure gauge starts fluctuating. Checklist and RFM says put out the call for the SAR boys and ditch.

Question: Do you ditch? If so...when and where?

Change the conditions above to 5 NM from a platform...excellent visibility, calm seas, Standby boat in sight next to the platform.

Do you ditch? If so... when and where?

Change the scenario to overland, summer time, farm land, nice country pub in sight under the nose with a huge pasture next to it, just at opening time for the pub.

What do you do now?

[3top]

John,

the question was directed to the "experienced" folks.
What would YOU do, if for some stupid reason you find yourself in a low fuel, warning light on situation and don 't have a place to go down without scrambling the helo?

Okay, there is different ways to find out about "last minutes":
Robinson says, the light is on and you are better down within 8 min.
EC120 says, reach the yellow bar and you have no more than 15 min at MCP. When the light comes on you are lucky if you have a minute.

Any way, I take my chance and try to reach a landable spot.
SaSless is on the spot - pub comes first! But you gotta' get to it!
Not so long ago I had an "interesting" experience about low-fuel lights.
"Hurry" was to blame (...just find an excuse, of course it was my own fault....), and a bent instrument panel cover, that conveniently covered up most warning lights. By the time my mechanic (maintenance flight) saw it I was about 6nm offshore - no floats (but lifewests and raft). Neither of us had a clue for how long it was on!! The flight was about 12min by that time.
It is hard to reduce power to the most efficient level if you see the coast that close by! I got the heliport (nearest spot). I turned out there would have been enough to go back to base, but not enough to comply with the legal 20 min.
If I would have called it quits, there would be one helo less on earth and I would be in deep trouble.
This way it is just another lesson learned - "No hurry in helicopter flying!!"
I am not encouraging anyone to go ahead to a "better" spot, though. By all means if you can land, do it!!

To make things clear, first you should not get even into your legal minimum.
But if you get into trouble with fuel, don't play around when the light comes on. You can land, do it!!
If you can not, take the first chance you get, but on the way there be prepared for the worst!

3top

[Gordy]

I think here it would be time to teach your students to study their POH in detail!
It will tell you in some place how much time you have at MCP when the fuel light comes on!
E.g. Robinson tells you that you have fuel for another 8 min (insider info says its more like 12 min).
So, why would you scramble the helo if you still have some time to find a break?
3top:cool:
Not Quite.......
I stand to be corrected---Its been a while since I flew a Robinson, however, I think if you look in the POH for the aircraft, (IE the one in the aircraft itself), there is a test done at the factory which determines the fuel remaining when the light comes on.
12 minutes---I wish......In one Robinson I flew way back in 93 or 94, it was only 4 minutes, (long story---don't ask ! ).
In the Jetranger and Astar, you have considerably more fuel. I believe HAI teaches for "the real world" (From their website---"You will be trained for the real world of helicopter flying, not just to pass examinations. "), therefore, you should explain the difference in aircraft and maybe use "Sasless' analogy with your students. I for one would weigh up the situation and use my experience and skill to determine where to land. The country pub at opening sounds like a fine choice to me---how far from the B-line split is that anyway?

[paco]

Land immediately is now removed from Bell's Flight Manuals because people landed immediately in some stupid places. The examiner is wrong - why put yourself in a position where you have no choice? If the light has only just come on, there's plenty of time to find somewhere within a couple of minutes.

As an examiner myself I ask the same question, within the context of having plenty of fuel a few moments ago, but not now, hence an emergency. Low fuel under other circumstances is bad planning and I would have probably asked more relevant CRM questions in that area instead.

3top - in the US you can go into your legal minimum - Considering wind and forecast weather, under VFR, you must start with enough fuel on board to fly to the first point of intended landing and, at normal cruising speed, after that for at least 30 minutes (45 at night, 20 for rotorcraft). There's nothing to say you have to land with it, unlike JAA. That's what it's for.

Phil

[212man]

I'm very surprised to see the definition offered by Robinson; if you can fly to a safe place to land it can't be that serious a problem!

SASless raises some interesting points but I think it is also quite easy to be sucked into the thought process that it's too dangerous to land so carry on anyway. I think the key is how sure you are that the problem actually exists that you are being warned of. If you have a fire warning that won't go out, then I agree that the scenarios SASless paints may well temper your actions if you have any doubt about it being real. On the other hand, if you have a double or triple indication that your MGB is about to fail, then it might be better to risk a ditching, with a good chance of some people not surviving, rather than have it seize at 200 ft as you try and make the platform 10 nm away, and all die.

Your peception of the severity of a problem will also be a function of your own experience and knowledge, which may not (i.e. almost certainly will not) match that of the manufacturer's. You may have never seen a Nicad battery explode from thermal runaway, or seen how long it takes from the torque spikes and kicks from a failing gearbox to the point where the blades stop turning. If you had, maybe you would consider the situation differently.

If you do decide not to land immediately, you had better have a damm good reason why for your widow, and those of your passengers, to understand!

It may all sound a bit heavy and grave, but sadly that's the nature of the consequence of mechanical failures in a helicopter.

[rotorboy]

Severity of a problem... I like that.

I am a believer that if you get a light , its telling you something.

I had an eng chip in a 206 this winter. I was in a perfect place to land and decided to put in on the ground ASAP. It turned out when they tore the eng apart a bereing in the compressor let go and the gear box was eating its self. I proably had a couple of minutes. Note to self= listen to the light, always

Personally with low fuel , eng chips, etcIf I didnt have a good spot I would continue ( with an auto in mind) looking for the first suitable safe place to put it down

rb

[3top]

I read you Paco,
where I fly it is nearly impossible to get acurate weather just for your destination, not even starting with en route weather!
You are also right about the legal limit, it is exactly for "unforseen" changes of circumstances.
And you are right, if the light comes on you do have a couple of minutes and when you find the place stop looking, take it!
The bad news is, if you know the perfect place - the only place, but do you have enough to make it? :suspect:

Gordy, your R-experience might have had something to do with increasing that safety margine at Robinson:)

I understand the latest R-44's have an easy 12 min if not more. POH stills says "about 8 min" at MCP.
The only way to make sure on your specific machine is to drain to the point where the light comes on and then measure the rest. From there you can guestimate pretty good how long the engine will stay warm!

I just still remember all the stuff that goes through your little grey cell bunker, when you have the damn light on and don't know IF you have enough to make it!

Just the thought of getting close to the light, makes me feel, ..... not good.

Genocchio, tell your students to use common sense!
You are not ditching unless you have to.
You are not looking for a "better" place if have an aceptable one right here (preferable with a pub close by ...:E ).
You are not trying to crashland if you still have a running engine. It is not about saving the helo, but even a planned crashlanding is dangerous. If you have the slightest chance to go on to a landable place, go.

There is some basics you have to instill. One of them is to never give up, fly the machine until nothing moves anymore. You give up, it is over. Never quit flying until everything stops!

"Personally with low fuel , eng chips, etc. If I didn't have a good spot I would continue ( with an auto in mind) looking for the first available safe place to put it down" - Amen, rotorboy!!
I had the forward bearing on the compressor get "unsupported" some time ago - it makes you an instant glider!
Then, I had the engine chip detector come on on a new EC120B - approx. 70 TT. All it was is, run in fuzz,cleaned the sensor, never came on again.
So, as 212 said, it all depends - when, what, where...

212, you are talking some serious damage now and there you are right.
I am still talking low-fuel light. Most likely you know wether the light is playing tricks or not - How long have you been in the air? What do the fuel indicators say? Can't vouch for the bigger rigs, but for the smaller ones a auto to the water is about as easy as a landing. For ditching ( ... no floats) it should be about the same. If you go that route you're as prepared as you will ever be! If there is the slightest chance that you can make it to a landable spot, go for it!


3top:cool:

PS: 212, I don't get your comment about "definition offered by Robinson", please set me straight....

[SASless]

I always took the position that it is far cheaper to send the fuel bowser out or dispatch an engineer to check something for a pilot than have an aircraft damaged or destroyed and maybe some injuries or deaths.

The only point I was trying to make with my earlier post was to suggest RFM's/checklists that dictate "Land Immediately" or "Ditch" do not fit all situations. The reason we get paid such awesome amounts of money is to use our noggins and make decisions that result from a careful, rational, and deliberate consideration of all the factors that affect the decision.

Combat pilots face that situation every day when flying over known hostile territory. Sometimes precautionary landings just are not an option and forced landings are done only as a very last resort. The same can be said for flight over hostile terrain or in hostile climatic conditions.

The decison has to be based upon what is most prudent and prevents the least danger to the occupants of the aircraft. Aircraft themselves are merely re-usable containers designed to be used to protect the contents and are disposable items. I would not hestitate one bit to use up the airframe and engine(s) to protect crew and passengers.

[212man]

3Top,
my comment about Robinson was that the land immediately definition that was quoted seemed to be a blanket definition, and not specific to the fuel light, and so I did not think that it conveyed the urgency of the requirement. Normally, land immediately means that the consequences of landing in a hostile and unsuitable location will be less severe than the consequence of continued flight.

[Brian Abraham]

"Land Immediately" or "Ditch" do not fit all situations
Wisdom is showing through Sas. Recall flying once for 15 mins with no oil in main gear box. To do otherwise was not a consideration. Similarly, took off with no oil in engine, ditto consideration.
Tell me again, just where do you work?
we get paid such awesome amounts of money :eek:

[paco]

Just to clarify what I said above - you must declare an emergency if you go into your Final reserve fuel in JAA land, which is 20 minutes for helicopters under VFR. That means you can still use it.

Phil

[HillerBee]

Low fuel light

The POH says land immediately. If you left full fuel and the light comes on much earlier than it should, there might be a fuel leak. So you don't have the time left you would have according to the POH.

But saving the helicopter is very important (and passengers), in the case of a fuel leak it's not your fault, but just getting low on fuel is your error and your boss will fire you, not to mention the FAA, who will pull the ticket, if you crash it.

[Whirlybird]

From the R22 POH, caution/warning lights section...

"LOW FUEL Indicates approximately one gallon of usable fuel remaining. The engine will run out of fuel after five minutes at cruise power."

As a low hours pilot, I did some emergency training with a very experienced instructor - 20,000 hours or so. He told me that in the event of the low fuel light coming on, land ASAP, as from 2000 ft, at a steady descent rate of 500 ft/min..... well, you can do the maths too.

Experienced pilots can work out other ways of doing it of course, but it seems obvious from this what you should teach students.

[170']

No right answers exist… We're not talking what manuals say or don't say!

These words are just an opinion, Not procedural and not recommended!
Just my thought on how I have handled things in the past, and will in the future, as and when needed. I'm not an instructor and most times I'm flying with one other pilot onboard or alone. I seldom have to consider passengers, innocent or otherwise! But it strikes me, if you get the two front seats where they need to be, the others will be OK ;)
..........................................

Saving life and reputation after a screwup or a leak is the 'soup du jour'.

No-one gets a warm fuzzy feeling about theoretical range after the warning light comes on, and it means zilch if it's a leak...

I suggest that less experienced drivers come up with a plan for just about every eventuality you can imagine.

They're grouped together by their similar natures.... Get information from every source. Then plan for the eventuality, while your 3C (cool calm and collected) in your living room...

Then the only thing you have to do during the 'Event' is 'suck it up' and continue with the pre-planned decision. Do not try to second-guess yourself, when you're scared, tired or hung over .

My personal plan, in my typical role (External load of some kind) is:

Re-arm the belly hook and reduce power, and if I'm carrying excess speed above range auto, convert it to height.... dump whatever I'm carrying as per its value. If it's low value (a camp net etc) it's adios here and now. If it's a seismic dog box I place it in the nearest hole big enough for it, and hit the event button on the GPS....

Look around and track the least hostile terrain toward nearest clear ground. Do not over fly any safe LZ...Even if there's a hot coffee and a sandwich just over the next ridgeline. Put it on the ground Safely and dip/flashlight the tank. It could be an electrical glitch. There again it might not!

If your first look/dip at the contents makes you think..." Man, there's plenty of fuel "... go directly to coffee and sandwiches.

If your first impression is I wonder if there's enough?...There isn't....

Do not get a pencil and paper and start to calculate if you have just enough to get to the coffee...You don't! No matter what a thin pencil will tell you!

This is not the best plan in the world. There is no best plan in the world!

This just happens to be mine after a minor scare years ago over an 8/8ths undercast of giganticus woodicus

(a species of tree cloud,known well to Lama/astar/longranger type seismic pilots on a jungle gig)

Flying along with something overtemping or under pressuring, is not a good time to decide if you should aim for the dense packed giganticus woodicus and hope to get hung up with a tailslide entry...or try to weave thru lesser stands of g-woodicus and do a perfect zero fulldown in the 5' square clear patch.

I've got my answer already, as I tried it one way, and it sucked! :ouch:

I'm gonna go the other way if there's a next time!

Over water, I don't care what's happening! I'll reduce power under most circumstances and no matter what (With one or two exceptions) I would never ditch under power if there's a chance it'll keep flying to coffee and sandwiches...This is not the best plan in the world But it's my plan, and I'm not going to change it when I'm Scared, tired or hungover:eek:

It doesn’t matter who’s philosophy you follow, or if you create your own.

Most experienced guys will form an opinion of your actions, but very few will openly criticize you for it. Because the truth of the matter is:

If you get into utility work, sooner or later someone’s gonna have a real bad day!....... And I know for myself. When it happens…My first, second and third thoughts are?

Thank God it was the other guy! And if he’s around to talk about?

He did alright!


170

in compliance with ec directive 1119-4s/s3b He refers to genderless operator of flight control systems. Subsection 177 of the abovementioned directive clearly refers to ‘hungover’ being synonymous with ‘feeling pretty ordinary’ ‘bottle flu’ and ‘ my ass hurts’

[Pandalet]

in compliance with ec directive 1119-4s/s3b He refers to genderless operator of flight control systems. Subsection 177 of the abovementioned directive clearly refers to ‘hungover’ being synonymous with ‘feeling pretty ordinary’ ‘bottle flu’ and ‘ my ass hurts’

If your ass hurts after a night out, you're probably drinking in the wrong bars :E...

[170']

Thanks Pandalet! Another lifestyle issue I've got to work on ;-)

[Jack Plug]

Heres a true story. A solo student landed an R22 with the fuel light on at the far side of the airport after miscalculating the fuel requirement. He walked the 1/2 mile back to dispersal as he didnt want to hover taxi with the light on. After bollocking the student the CFI walked back to the helo. Rather than take some fuel he decided to carefully taxi back. It stopped. He rolled it and it was a write off. Dont bother looking for the AAIB report as other factors got blamed and fuel was in the tank by the time the investigators got there. For some there should be a note in the POH 'Dont take off with the light on'. Jeez.:\

[Land of LA]

I have had several low fuel lights in my career and I am never pleased with myself at those times. After flying for several years you get a sense of what is the best course of action , meaning does the damn book save your butt or do you? I will put it down anywhere it will fit if thats what I feel is the right thing at that time. Hell I would rather answer to local cops or FAA than be a NTSB report. Last week I had a engine chip light while HOGE at 1000 AGL with a bunch of other ENG ships, broke off and landed in a shopping center parking lot early AM. Called the mechanic gave the cops my I.D. and walked over to Mickey D's with the reporter and had a nice hot cup of coffee. 30 minutes later after the mechanic found a small peice of carbon on a chip detector I hovered for 5 minutes and went on my way. Another time I was flying tourist in AK and had a engine oil pressure gauge go to zero (faulty gauge) and landed in a river sand bar. Base manager my not have been pleased but what if I had turned back and lost the engine over water or continued up the mountain with no flat terrain for miles. Save your but first and everything else will follow. Bell instructor once told me they cannot possibly think of every combination of events to address in the RFM so use common sense.

[rotornut]

Jack Plug
That's exactly what happened to me - well almost. I was on the first flight of a used Hughes 269B. Although I started off with plenty of fuel for the intended destination, I had to divert and land because of a bad thunderstorm. When I arrived about 3000 ft. short of the hangar at the destination airport the low fuel light came on at approximately 200 ft. agl. It was a pretty scary feeling. I decided to put it down on the grass and walk the rest of the way. I often wondered if I should have hover taxied to the hangar but after reading your post I feel vindicated. Better safe than sorry.

[CocoJoe]

The attitude of the helicopter at the time the low fuel light comes on plays a part too. Have seen it go on in the R44 in cruise, then flicker on approach, and go off upon landing.

So when to initiate the emergency procedure/timing?

Personally, I'd do it at the first flicker.

[robsrich]

Our CASA said a few years ago that one aircraft ran out of fuel in flight every 8.6 days. Their opinion and that of ATSB, is that it had slipped to maybe one very week by now, that is. it is getting worse rather than better.

That is the ones we know about!

Do your maths - 12,500 aircraft, of which 1,300 are helicopters.

Now with GPS and vastly improved weather forecasting, there should be an improvement overall, but it seems to be the opposite?

So what are your thoughts on this unwanted silence??

[Bertie Thruster]

It's been rumoured it can happen to anyone:

For example, 2 CFS QHIs and 2 student QHIs returning to Shawbury from Valley in a Gazelle.

Apparently the low fuel warning came on about 10 minutes into the 40 minute trip!

Even 4 pairs of eyes can be distracted.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

212 man - The scenario you picture there - out at sea, big aircraft, falling MGB pressure, failure likely. Sea state is pretty bad. Would you ditch immidiately or continue the flight at slow speed, say 10 or 15 knots at just above the sea surface to try and get in ? What do general SOP's say on this ?

[3top]

CocoJoe,

I read you there!

It get's really bad if you do sling work with the R-44.
You fly low fuel to max sling load.
Release load, R-44 goes tail low, it looks like enough fuel for another run. Hook up new load, pick it up, go fly and fuel looks reeaaally low!
If you have a R-44-I in the tropics it get's a little tough to reach max hookload with decent fuel.....

However, at first flicker, you are right, down and land, ....
if you can! :)

3top,:cool:

[Gomer Pylot]

The fuel gauge didn't just suddenly jump to empty. If you've been paying any attention at all, you knew the fuel was getting low long before the light came on. The time to worry about it was long ago.

That said, it does depend a lot on the type you're flying. I've never been inside a Robinson, so I can't comment on them. However, I've had a low fuel light many, many times in a Bell 412SP, and seldom worried about it. If you calculated your fuel burn correctly, you'll get one almost every flight inbound to shore, because it comes on with 30 minutes, or more, of fuel remaining. This is not to be confused with a straight 412, however, because those lights come on with about 10 minutes of fuel, and you never want to see the light in those.

Flying every day over areas where you're going to sleep with the fishes if you miscalculate teaches you to keep an eye on the fuel gauge at all times.

[SASless]

Robs,

Simple solution would be to figure out which aircraft it is that runs out of fuel...if it is only one as you say....it should be fairly easy to do. Just ground that thing and it should end the problem.;)

Gomer P...

Ever pump your Aux fuel over the side in flight because you forgot to shut off the Aux Transfer Pump? On the S-58T, with 1800-1900 pounds in the external tank....that could put a wee cramp in your fuel plan. (So the big boys tell me.....never having done that myself!)

What always struck me as odd, forget to shut the transfer pump off and it pumps 10,000 pounds per minute. Wait too late to turn it on and it pumps at fuel burn minus 250 pounds per hour.

[3top]

Gomer,
You are right about putting yourself into the corner, but if you have to start half way into the corner puts it a little closer to the edge....
External load with a R44-I in the tropics (heat aand humidity don't help performance a lot...)

3top,:cool:

[Gomer Pylot]

No, I never flew the S58T. The only model I've flown with aux tanks is the 412, and those just recirculate the fuel back into the aux tanks, not overboard.

I've flown with very little fuel to start with, and it's common to head in with just enough fuel to get to the beach with reserves. It's possible to get in trouble this way, of course, but it's also prudent to keep an eye on the fuel state as the flight progresses. Unexpected weather can catch you without enough fuel to return to a platform, and not enough to circumnavigate it, if you're not careful. When you're starting with barely enough fuel, you have to be very careful as you go.