P51 Mustang looses Canopy over City

[Flying Bull]

Hi all,
yesterday afternoon, in the city of Münster/Germany, people just escaped tragedy, as a canopy of an aircraft fell down onto a roof and then onto the road.
After first investigations, it was found out, that it came from a P51 Mustang, departed in GB on its way to the ILA in Berlin.
The pilot continued his flight to Berlin (over 200 NM away) while police and rescue services looked for a downed aircraft in the area of the canopydrop or airfields in the area.
Press releases say, the pilot has said, he didn´t noticed the drop, just more wind in the cockpit...
http://www.mdr.de/nachrichten/meldungen/2894673.html
Greetings Flying Bull

[markflyer6580]

Who was it? Can't of been too many p51's about yesterday:eek:

[treadigraph]

Big Beautiful Doll I believe. Think it belongs to Rob Davies in Kent.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Come on, he didn't notice the canopy flew off?!

[Flying Bull]

Hi folks,
looking through the pictures, it seems quite usual to fly with the canopy open - and wheather was warm and sunny yesterday....
Would only been nice to know, that the aircraft and the pilot wasn´t in danger

Greetings Flying Bull

[JW411]

I would imagine that if the whole canopy of a P-51 really did detach and you were unlucky enough to collect it on your head then you would have a World Cup standard headache (if indeed you survived)!

[Flying Bull]

Hi folks,
on the other hand - except from the broken canopyglass - the owner can collect the canopyframe from the authorities - I guess, it´s hard to get those parts for the oldimer ;-)

Greetings Flying Bull

[blue up]

No he can't.


It's already on E-bay:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Atcham Tower]

What are they complaining about? Back in '44 around Munster it might have been 96 P-51 drop tanks ...

[treadigraph]

JW411, if I recall aright, the late Ormond Haydon-Baillie received rather more than a clout on the head when the canopy departed his P-51D at Mainz back in '77 - he and his passenger were killed in the subsequent crash. There's a thread about him somewhere on this forum.

I reckon Rob was very lucky that things just got a bit breezy. Anyone know his lottery numbers?

[RatherBeFlying]

I believe there's been a T-33 canopy accident or two where the pilots lost their heads:eek:

[Ignition Override]

Such a tragedy happened to a pilot on a test flight of the first B-47 Stratojet in the 50s. Tex Johnston, who later rolled the B-707 (Dash 80) at Seattle, then tested the plane, among many others.

The P-51 is very fast and was a very effective weapons system, helped greatly by long-range external fuel tanks. Did it not begin with a Merlin engine and then used the Allison?

But the liquid-cooled engines were not as reliable as a radial engine (i.e. P-47/FW-190) aircraft for a ground-attack mission. The highly-modified versions are raced each September at the 'Unlimited' event in Reno, Nevada (RNO). Two of the official nicknames were "Dago Red" and "Vergeltungswaffe" (ironic). Last fall or spring at Tunica, Mississippi, they raced with some Hawker Sea-Furies, a twin-engine Tigercat and a red F4U Corsair.

[treadigraph]

Did it not begin with a Merlin engine and then used the Allison?


Other way round IO, it all began with the Allison - Ronnie Harker at Rolls Royce said something like "nice aeroplane, but stick a Merlin in it and then watch it go". They did and its performance went through the ceiling...:ok:

[Flying Bull]

Hi folks,

no, it isn´t at ebay – the german justice now has its hands on it - on the fallen parts, which came down on an area of about 350 meters - and on the plane...
Seems, like they are not to happy about the cooperation of Robert W. Davies, who had an passenger as well.
Witnesses said, there where two aircraft in the sky close together, when suddenly one jerked away from the other...
So rumors are, the Mustang lost the canopy due to a mid air collision.

Further witnesses are looked for.




http://morgenpost.berlin1.de/content/2006/05/19/brandenburg/830179.html

Greetings Flying Bull

[treadigraph]

With the greatest respect Flying Bull, rumours, ground-bound (and probably uninformed and over-excitable) witnesses and the media do not a reliable story make. :=

I've little doubt Rob Davies will co-operate fully with the German authorities (and I presume the AAIB as the aircraft is UK registered?) and he will be as keen as any for the reason for incident to be explained. Mustang canopies have come off in flight before, and if a second aircraft was in formation with the P-51D, it might well have moved clear after seeing BBD shed parts.

Cheers

Treadders

[Flying Bull]

Hi treaders,

that´s why I wrote rumors - isn´t that also the title of this forum ;-)

About cooperation - I´m not involved in the mishap and can only read the information or disinformation in the newspaper and the net.

The question is, why he continued over 200 miles with an proper airfield with in a few miles - and whether he has or hasn´t called an agency to tell about the mishap.
I personally think, he hasn´t - because otherwise the controller would suggested a landing at EDDG or - if the pilot wanted to continue - would have informed the Tower of EDDG about the mishap - in case somebody was asking.

Evenso there was a copilot, who could take a look to the back and evenso, it was an warbird, capable of taking some hits, I personally wouldn´t continue 200 NM, when I coulnd´t be sure, that nothing else on the plane was hit and might be damaged while continue flying.
But there seems to be a wingman, who might have done an outside inspection - and at Berlin there was 200 NM less fuel in the tanks....

Still, in my humble opinion from the information I have at the moment, the case wasn´t handeld to well from the pilot

Greetings Flying Bull

[Few Cloudy]

Yep, according to that article he didn't report the incident.

Mind you they also called the Mustang a dive bomber in the text
so let's wait a while...

FC.

[tinpis]

The NT News here called a Spitfire a "WWII jet fighter aircraft" :hmm:

[Brian Abraham]

called the Mustang a dive bomber
The first U.S. unit to fly the Mustang in combat was the Morocco-based 154th Observation Squadron, which used 35 P-51-2NA's for a few weeks in April-May, 1943.
300 A-36A's (a variant of the Mustang known as "Apache" and "Invader") made a larger impact, when the 27th and 86th Bombardment Groups began flying them. In June, 1943, the 27th BG flew missions against Pantelleria, in the build-up for the Sicily invasion. Dive bombing was a challenge, the recommended technique being a dive from 8,000 - 10,000 feet at 90 degrees, with dive brakes extended to keep speed below 400 MPH. At 3,000 feet, the pilot dropped two 500-pound bombs and pulled out at 1,500 feet. With this extended straight-in bomb run, they were vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire.
Spitfire a "WWII jet fighter aircraft"
Probably because the reporter sees all jets these days spit fire out the back Tins.

[magbreak]

There was another plane in formation with the Mustang and it definately wasn't a collision. There was a passenger in the rear of the Mustang who I believe was wind swept on arrival :ooh: , and isn't going home in the back!!

I understand the Mustang had a couple of dents in the tail and nothing more.

Let's just say I have close links to the pilot of the 2nd aircraft!!!

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

I've little doubt Rob Davies will co-operate fully with the German authorities and if not...zey hav vays of making him cooperate.

[Centaurus]

Dive bombing in a Mustang at 90 degrees? No bloody way. 45 usually, 60 if you really push it - but 90 never.

Re the canopy. An Mustang accident near Bankstown near Sydney around 1956 I think cost the pilot his life when the canopy came off and hit his head. Same problem in a Sea Fury if the canopy was left open on take off (normal procedure) and when the pilot wound the canopy forward after take off, if his hand accidently slipped off the winding handle an aerodynamic effect would cause the canopy to slam hard forward unrestricted and maybe dong the pilot on the back of his head. Killed one pilot at Nowra and damned nearly got me on one occasion.

[Brian Abraham]

Centaurus,
The history I have by Robert Grinsell on the development of the 51 says with regard to the A-36 that it was a beefed up version for the dive bombing role and retained the original Allison. He only mentions that the attack was "near 90 degrees" but due to occassional asymetric deployment of the dive brakes (hydraulic on each wing) causing an unstable dive, and at times loss of control or structual failure, the brakes were wired shut and the attack limited to 70 degrees until the necessary mods were made. I guess the brakes must have been really effective.

[Centaurus]

Brian A. I see your point, now. I did not realise it was a specially adapated version with dive brakes because certainly Mustangs I was involved with did not have dive brakes. Fascinating story all the same.

[Brian Abraham]

Centaurus,
If you retain yearnings for the aircraft you may be interested in "Straight Down!" by Peter C Smith the story of the A-36. A review below. ISBN 0947554734 320 pages hardcover and readily available via internet. Have not read myself.
Peter C. Smith has assembled in this volume accounts from the designers, builders, and pilots of this little-known offshoot of the P-51 family as well as an impressive selection of photos. From the design and construction, through training stateside and deployment in the Mediterranean and China-Burma-India theaters of operation, the author's narrative links the recollections of those who made history in this machine. He also addresses the many falsehoods that have somehow become accepted as fact regarding the combat use of the A-36, and properly points out that this is the aircraft that kept the Mustang alive as an Air Corps project. Overall, Mr. Smith displays a command of the subject that puts him above many of the other writers of aviation history, and I would have rated this a five-star effort if he didn't have several mis-identified photos of P-51B Mustangs labelled as A-36 Apaches.
Blue Skies,
Brian

[His dudeness]

Quote Atcham Tower:
What are they complaining about? Back in '44 around Munster it might have been 96 P-51 drop tanks ...

Not funny, not the least bit.

h_d

[Mr Proachpoint]

I laughed. :D :D :D
MAPt

[Aerostar6]

So, Red Bull, can you tell us how much experience you have to comment on the P-51 pilot's actions after losing his canopy?

I know the pilot in question well, and as a fellow display pilot I can tell you that he is one of the most experienced and professional warbird pilots in the UK. I also know that he spends a great deal of time in the winter months tuning his aircraft to an extremely high engineering standard for the summer display season.

As you have absolutely no idea why the canopy came loose and the circumstances that he found himself after it had, you are in no position to pass judgement irrespective of your experience.

Thank you for bringing our attention to the incident on the forum, but please keep your opinions to yourself until the facts are known.

[Flying Bull]

So, Red Bull, can you tell us how much experience you have to comment on the P-51 pilot's actions after losing his canopy?

Hi Aerostar,
I´m a litte surprised about the question - and by the way, it´s Flying Bull (none of the Red Bull Team - my nick is another story)

Well, I learned flying with the Royal Navy - although as a paying guest.
I have experience on fixed wings, although I´m a rotorhead at the moment.
Flying day and night, IFR, NVG, tactical low level and so on.

Just by common sense - thinking three seconds, after being sure, the aircraft is flying save at the moment - what would you do, after loosing your canopy over a city?
Have a look, where it went down to make sure, nobody is hurt?
Land relatively close to the scene, to make sure, nothing else on your plane was damaged?
Inform ATC, so that SAR won´t be scrambeld by whitnesses, who have seen pieces of an aircraft falling from the sky?
Is all that so far fetched for you?

I was involved to search for the possible downed A/C, that´s why I ask the questions!

I know the pilot in question well, and as a fellow display pilot I can tell you that he is one of the most experienced and professional warbird pilots in the UK. I also know that he spends a great deal of time in the winter months tuning his aircraft to an extremely high engineering standard for the summer display season.

As you have absolutely no idea why the canopy came loose and the circumstances that he found himself after it had, you are in no position to pass judgement irrespective of your experience.

Well, he might be a great pilot and a good maintainer - I don´t know.
I question his common sense and his airmanship, flying another 200 nm before landing without telling anybody (if the fault wasn´t within ATC passing information)

Thank you for bringing our attention to the incident on the forum, but please keep your opinions to yourself until the facts are known.
It´s a rumor network - I was missing facts, like what happend to the A/C, which parts fell down over a crowed city, covering 300 square meters - and I like to hear from different points of view - but just saying, he´s a great pilot, doesn´t mean, that he couldn´t have done a mistake ever!

Greetings Flying Bull

[PPRuNe Pop]

This is one of those occasions when I can remind everyone that PPRuNe is a site where you can have an opinion, you don't have to keep it to yourself, because you are entitled to it equally and without fear or favour. It's called debate and what PPRuNe is for.

This forum, if no other, is not a place for egos. Just a fine place to discuss our heritage and the wonders of aviation that have gone before. Tell me that you cannot enjoy that!

[Flying Bull]

Hi Folks,

short note in the local newspaper today, that the authorities said, it was bad luck, the canopy departed, because the aircraft was well maintained.

So it seems, the story ends with a happy end for the pilot.

Greetings Flying Bull

[inbalance]

Anyone who knows the local authorities at muenster, knows that it was a good idea not to land and continue to Berlin.

Just my 50 cent.

Inbalance

[Flying Bull]

Hi Inbalance,

Anyone who knows the local authorities at muenster, knows that it was a good idea not to land and continue to Berlin.

Just my 50 cent.

Well, it all depends on how you shout into the wood, how it sounds back out of it ;-)

I had some experiance with the Münster authorities as well - nobody likes to be controlled - but as long, as you stick to the rules - it´s just a pain to be controlled, not a problem.

Nevertheless, there is still no comment from the "close friends of the pilot" or himself, whether there was a radiocall and to whom, to state, who lost the canopy and that there is no danger to the aircraft.
I personally doubt, that such a professional call was made.

Greetings Flying Bull