63 Years ago tonight

[The Swinging Monkey]

Gentlemen,
Just a brief reminder if I may...
It was 63 years ago tonight that Guy Gibson and his squadron departed Scampton on their Dams raids.
Let us all spare just a few moments to remember them and all the other aircrew from every nation who have not returned to their loved ones.
God Bless you all and RIP
TSM
'Caruthers, a glass to fallen comrades Sir'

[Safeware]

Hear, Hear

"These are only boys and I will never know
How men can see the wisdom in a war"

sw

[passpartout]

I'm an ex-member of the Sqn, from recent times, and I was proud to take part in memorials both for this and the other notable raid by the Sqn.

I know there is a lot of cynicism around these days, and that there is also a lot of revisionist history about Bomber Command.

Guy Gibson doesn't seem to have stood the test of time for many people.

But, by God, it was an outstanding feat of airmanship by those involved, with huge losses inflicted, at a time when our country needed all the good news that it could get.

God bless those of you who flew on that raid and those of you who supported it.

This country owes men (and women) like you a massive debt, and it is to our shame if we should ever forget.

It's always a time for me to bow my head in remembrance - not only for this squadron, at this time, but for those of all 3 services, and for other nations who were asked, and expected, to fight tyranny.

Thank you.

[rafloo]

Did I hear that there are plans to re-make the movie?

[PPRuNe Pop]

I was reading about it just the other day.

It is being made by the guy who made the Harry Potter movies. It seems David Frost is also involved in the production and has vowed that the film will be true to the event and to the memory of those who took part. They will use the kind of generated computer graphics they used in the Harry Potter films. He also said that when it came to Gibson's dog - it will be called Nigger. Quite right too.

They plan use the Lancaster based at East Kirby at the Aircraft Heritage centre for 'studio' shots.

This might be of interest too: http://www.bbc.co.uk/lincolnshire/asop/people/dambusters/lancaster_tour.shtml

[forget]

First hand account here of Gibson the man - and what a man!

From the excellent Garbett and Goulding 'Lancaster at War 2'. ISBN 0 7110 0966X

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/GIBSON1.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/GIBSON2.jpg

[BossEyed]

I was reading about it just the other day.
It is being made by the guy who made the Harry Potter movies.

Not Harry Potter - it was reported to be Peter Jackson, who directed the Lord of the Rings Trilogy and the recent King Kong remake.

More info here (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/article/ds32657.html), with a denial from Jackson's "people" here (http://movies.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1162437.php/Peter_Jackson_denies_remake_of_The_Dam_Busters).

Regardless of the movies, it was a magnificent achievement which is rightly remembered with pride throughout the Commonwealth.

Edit: Apologies, you are right of course. PPP

[wiggy]

T'would be interesting to see a remake using modern technology - but I hope the financial backers don't insist on too many Americans in leading roles and the use of B-17s instead of Lancs.....

[brickhistory]

T'would be interesting to see a remake using modern technology - but I hope the financial backers don't insist on too many Americans in leading roles and the use of B-17s instead of Lancs.....

And the Hamster wheel starts again.....this has already been beaten to death on another thread (couldn't find it readily, but it's there).

1) I, too, hope that IF the movie is re-made, that it's historically accurate.
2) Who would you cast in the various roles - Gibson, Barnes-Wallis, etc?

Watched a terrible movie ("Submarine X-1") the other night about the X-craft subs used against the Tirpitz. For some reason, James Caan played the boss. In addition to overly dramatic training scenarios, one classic bit had the Germans staging a commando raid on the sub base to thwart the raid.

Naturally, the crews turned out to man the base defenses, going man to man with the German paras. Caan took out the German leader in a one-to-one. Right, are submariners trained as well in the martial arts as we flyers?

[GANNET FAN]

Brickhistory, agreed absolute rubbish. Did you notice how the gallant RN types had their stiff collars and ties completely in place after sorting out the nasties. Seem to remember a film about midget subs made a long time ago which was excellent.

[Shackman]

Lie in the dark and listen. It's clear tonight so they're flying high,
Hundreds of them, thousands perhaps, riding the icy, moonlit sky.
Men, machinery, bombs and maps, altimeters and guns and charts,
Coffee, sandwiches, fleece-lined boots, bones and muscles and minds and hearts,
English saplings with English roots deep in the earth they've left below.
Lie in the dark and let them go; Lie in the dark and listen.



Lie in the dark and listen. They're going over in waves and waves
High above villages, hills and streams, country churches and little graves
And little citizen's worried dreams; very soon they'll have reached the sea.
Lie in the dark and let them go, theirs is a world we'll never know.
Lie in the dark and listen. And far below them will lie the bays
And cliffs and sands where they used to be taken for summer holidays.
Lie in the dark and let them go. Theirs is a world we'll never know.
Lie in the dark and listen.



Lie in the dark and listen. City magnates and steel contractors,
Factory workers and politicians, soft hysterical little actors,
Ballet dancers, reserved musicians, safe in your warm civilian beds.
Count your profits and count your sheep, life is passing above your heads,
Just turn over and try to sleep. Lie in the dark and let them go;
There's one debt you'll forever owe,


Lie in the dark and listen.



For all Bomber Command crews

[Monty77]

Shackman:

That really sums it up.

Thanks

[BOAC]

Shackman - can you 'attribute' that to anyone?

[Archimedes]

I think it's Noel Coward, circa 1944, BOAC.

[Shackman]

I believe Archimedes to be correct - although I first saw (and copied and kept) it on the wall of one of the old Sqn buildings on a disused airfield in Lincolnshire in the days when kids could play in and around many of them. I'm not 100% sure but it was either Kirmington (long before it became Humberside Airport) or North Killingholme. It certainly wasn't Goxhill, 'cos that still had a load of abandoned hulks of US aircraft on it.

Again I haven't seen an original in print, but I have seen reference to it in connection with Noel Coward.

[dakotaman]

Shackman, VMT for sharing the poem with us, if it wasn't Noel Coward it deserves to be.

[DC10RealMan]

I can confirm that the poet was Noel Coward after he heard the bomber stream passing over London one night. It was AVM Harris who ordered that the bombers pass over London sometimes en-route to their targets to comfort the Londoners who had suffered the attentions of the Luftwaffe earlier in the war.

[WhiteOvies]

Many thanks for that Shackman (and Noel Coward I suppose!). My grandfather flew Lancs and made it through the war with many a tale to tell and the gongs to prove it. Sums it all up very well and I'm grateful even if most aren't.
No noise complaints in those days it seems.;)

[jumpseater]

I just happened upon this today, on the way home from dropping the kids at school. I saw the cross and the sun bleached poppy which drew my attention for a closer look.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c270/2012images/_B6O2895.jpg

The inscription reads:
3.12.43 200 yards from this cross, the crew of 9 Sqdn (Bardney) Lancaster DV334, crashed in fog, out of fuel, after surviving the horrors of a raid on Berlin, icing, flak, night fighters,

P/O Warwick
Flt SGT Butterfield
Sgt Graham
Sgt Jones
Sgt Davidson
Sgt Muon
458 aircraft on this sortie
40 failed to return
The aircraft crashed about three miles from Gamston airfield, so near and yet so far.

RIP

[Tombstone]

I was reading about it just the other day.

It is being made by the guy who made the Harry Potter movies. It seems David Frost is also involved in the production and has vowed that the film will be true to the event and to the memory of those who took part. They will use the kind of generated computer graphics they used in the Harry Potter films. He also said that when it came to Gibson's dog - it will be called Nigger. Quite right too.



A friend of mine owns the Dambuster Inn in Scampton Village and had Sir David Frost & Peter Jackson in for a visit 2 weeks ago. The Dog's name is the only issue with regards to authenticity of the planned movie, it will change according to Sir DF.

The good news is that unlike the original, which followed Barnes W and his plight to find a way to win the war for the first part of the movie, the new film will concentrate on Wg Cdr Gibson's career prior to 617 Sqn.

The theme music is staying too!!!

Due out next December.

[BOAC]

Link to Noel Coward at http://www.noelcoward.net/html/sketches.html and the poem appears to be on a CD called "On the Air: Rare Unknown Broadcasts 1944-1948"

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

I was away out of the country on the 16/17 May, but quietly raised a glass in the bar of my hotel to those that took part and drank deep to them – may they all rest in peace and their memory never be forgotten. Courage of their magnitude should be held aloft, as role models for others to follow, don’t you think? Instead their actions seem to ridiculed and criticised by those who abuse the freedom of speech so dearly won by Gibson and his ilk.

An important fact of the mission not generally known is that Hopgood (M – Mother), #2 in the attack on the Möehne and shot down during his run, had suffered significant damage on the way to the target.

The port outer engine was hit and feathered, the front gunner (Gregory) was probably killed, the wireless operator (Minchin) reported being ‘hit in the leg’, (it was actually nearly severed, but that was not known about until nearly an hour later when the rear gunner assisted him to abandon the aircraft – during that time he never uttered any complaint) and the rear gunner (Burcher) was hit in the groin and stomach (ouch!). The loss of the port outer meant that there was no power to the rear turret either. Hopgood himself was badly hit in the HEAD and continued to fly with the Engineer (Brennan) holding a handkerchief to the wound in an effort to staunch the serious blood loss.

Despite these serious setbacks, Hopgood continued to the target with Gibson and Martin without a murmur and attacked unhesitatingly when ordered to do so. On 3 engines, with no suppressive fire from the front turret, he flew an accurate attack into the now thoroughly alerted defences and paid the price. However, even then, Hopgood’s heroism knew no bounds and he remained in control of a now blazing, fully asymmetric, aircraft while he tried to gain height for his crew to abandon the mortally hit Lancaster.

Due to Hopgood’s gallant efforts, 3 of his crew DID get out, although the seriously injured Minchin did not survive the low level abandonment. Bomb Aimer Fraser and Rear Gunner Burcher did get away with it, Burcher with a broken back; he landed, unable to move due to his injuries, immediately downstream of the dam that his colleagues were trying to destroy and in the path of any potential flood.

The point of this diatribe is that, with all the criticism commonly levelled at the Military in general and Bomber Command in particular, wouldn’t it redress the balance, ever so slightly, if a campaign were started to get Hopgood, or, indeed his whole crew (there is precedent), a posthumous VC? Loyalty, bravery, selflessness and real heroism of this order should be recognised forever – and people reminded of it on a regular basis.

Finally, Sir David, and Peter Jackson, if you should read this, please do not prostitute history to the cynical whining of the Nouveau Politically Correct – the dog’s name (and the codeword be-damned!) was what is was.

That’s history, and we are not in George Orwell land - yet.

[henry crun]

Downwind.Maddl-Land: I agree with your suggestion about a posthumous VC,
but I have a feeling there is a proviso in the award criteria that would prevent it after such a long time.

[Melchett01]

Downwind, I couldn't agree more. As we get deeper and deeper into a period of being dominated by accountants and lean, with the main aim of the armed forces to carry out cost cutting, this should serve as a timely reminder of exactly what the armed forces are really about: dedication, determination, a willingness to get the job done no matter how great the odds and more importantly in an age that appears to have forgotten, self-sacrifice and looking after your men. That, I expect is why many of us joined up, rather than to implement the next round of cuts. Truly inspirational stuff.

As for the suggestion for a posthumous VC, I don't see why we couldn't at least have a damn good stab at getting something sorted. I realise it happened a long time ago, but the facts certainly seem to be out there and I think the award of the Suez Clasp to the GSM has set a precedent for awarding medals long after the event.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Henry & Melchett, thanks for the support, but I don't care two *@!s about the rules! Far less noble things have been enacted after the passage of time.

Suggestions welcomed on how one might start the ball rolling........

[henry crun]

Downwind.Maddl-Land: if you decide to go ahead I wish you success, but I can't help thinking that your chances are less than slim.

I have read of only one case (a Sergeant Major Wright) where the award was changed to a VC after direct intervention of the sovereign.

I am also mindful of the case of Sergeant Manahi.
His recommendation for the VC was endorsed by one Field Marshall and three generals. One of the latter said "It was the most gallant feat of arms I witnessed in the war".
After that you might think it would be matter of just attending to the paper work, but no, reduced to the DCM by Whitehall.

Many years of trying to get the original citation accepted have come to nought.

If your efforts were successful it would open the way for this case and many others to be considered, and I dont think the neddies in Whitehall would allow that to happen.

[aviate1138]

About a remake of the Dambusters...
[QUOTE= Due out next December.[/QUOTE]
That I very much doubt. Nothing has been shot - no Artists under contract,
no tech crews engaged. If the film is going to be made it won't be shown this Christmas. Anyway the correct release time is around the Raid date surely?
If Peter Jackson does make the film [so far denied by his organisation] then it will have great attention to detail and may be accurate historically too! Only the Americans Movie makers can change history so blatantly.


Aviate 1138 [ I do work in the UK/USA Film Industry BTW] :)

[Farmer 1]

I can say categorically, if it is made, "It will be shown by Christmas."

[aviate1138]

I can say categorically, if it is made, "It will be shown by Christmas."
Oh Dear!
Aviate 1138
More worried about the myth of Global Warming than any movie release date.
Climate Change is another matter altogether. :)

[barit1]

Link to Noel Coward at http://www.noelcoward.net/html/sketches.html and the poem appears to be on a CD called "On the Air: Rare Unknown Broadcasts 1944-1948"

Listen to 0:30 of NC reading it here. (http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1034343/a/On+The+Air.htm)

[Tombstone]

About a remake of the Dambusters...

That I very much doubt. Nothing has been shot - no Artists under contract,
no tech crews engaged. If the film is going to be made it won't be shown this Christmas. Anyway the correct release time is around the Raid date surely?
If Peter Jackson does make the film [so far denied by his organisation] then it will have great attention to detail and may be accurate historically too! Only the Americans Movie makers can change history so blatantly.


Aviate 1138 [ I do work in the UK/USA Film Industry BTW] :)

Hey, that's just what they said whilst having a pint in the Dambusters Inn. Peter Jackson is infact set to do it, he is a bit of a history buff and is more than up for it. Straight from the horses mouth so to speak, very exciting.

I'm sure it will be accurate, Peter Jackson is indeed a perfectionist. Good to see that the rights to the movie are no longer in American hands!! :)

[Shackman]

barit1: thank you for that confirmation.

I might just add that growing up in Lincolnshire in the early 50's with both the recent history (and LOTS of Lincolns, Lancasters and early Canberras) around me and also seeing those words on the wall actually started my determination to join as soon as I could - and to a lesser extent to fly the Shack.

Sorry - I should also add watching them during the filming of the original. And it would be good to see a remake if it is accurate, with no PC overwriting of events.

** Pertama **

[Roadster280]

With only two airworthy Lancasters (one in Canada), but plenty more non flying examples, are there any plans to restore more to flight for the film?

Come to think of it, any plans to restore Scampton?

I can't see the Germans being too happy about Lancs screaming across the Moehnesee or Edersee.

[aviate1138]

Hey, that's just what they said whilst having a pint in the Dambusters Inn. Peter Jackson is infact set to do it, he is a bit of a history buff and is more than up for it. Straight from the horses mouth so to speak, very exciting.
I'm sure it will be accurate, Peter Jackson is indeed a perfectionist. Good to see that the rights to the movie are no longer in American hands!! :)
Sadly, having spoken to a Kiwi mate, Director/Producer Peter Jackson [his company confirms] is in preparation on The Lovely Bones, Alice Sebold's book. Also he is involved in a $100 million video game/film called Halo. Paradine Productions, [David Frost] who own the rights to the Dambusters book/film have issued a statement rebutting any involvement.
A movie with heavy Computer Graphic effects is usually anything from 1.5 - 2+ years in the making. I would like to be contradicted but the Mail on Sunday reporting is not always accurate, as their many retractions have proved.
Aviate 1138
"Rad shutters to Auto"

[Mmmmnice]

The subject matter notwithstanding - I'd go and see anything that risks the wrath of the PC brigade by using the word 'nigger'
Jehovah - you'll go to hell for that one
Sorry folks, that's what his name was