Eagle Jet International [Archive]

Gnirren

3rd Feb 2006, 21:45

I hope that they do make it illegal and illegal to but a TR without a job.
In fact I would like to see that there is some kind of minimum requirement put in place in the UK (with the help of all UK airlines) before a student is allowed to commence flight training. All commercial flight training schools should have to improve to a standard acceptable by the airline industry.
In this way only competent students are allowed to spend their hard earned money and should hopefully reduce the number of students going through, so as to create nearly 100% employment.
At present money buys you a job and there is too much wastage in the industry with the flights schools benefitting. We need to find a way to make sure that we do not lose pilots from the industry after training.
But agree....lets start with EagleJet.
It used to be that to become an airline pilot you had to basically come from the military, period. If you weren't ex-military you wouldn't stand a chance of getting into a jet. Naturally for these guys employment was 100%. So are you saying you would prefer that system now? I'll tell you what you're saying for you... you want legislation that provides you with a job. At least you have a fighting chance to get hired in this day and age, be thankful for it.
And make no mistake, aviation is ABOUT MONEY. IT'S ONLY ABOUT MONEY AND THAT'S IT, IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN GO BE A DENTIST. :eek:
Seriously... some of the people on here...

Speedbird744

3rd Feb 2006, 22:18

Well said Gnirren,

People must accept this industry won't turn back the clock and go back to the old days. There are SO MANY more routes now to get a job and if flying for free, no matter how "immoral", at least realise where this industry is heading. Stay in or stay out of it.
Another point is that even if you can fork out thousands on line experience/type rating, you aren't going to get anywhere unless you are actually damn good.

jamav8r

4th Feb 2006, 04:21

Just a question.What makes pay to fly immoral?

Luke SkyToddler

4th Feb 2006, 05:02

That's an easy one jamav8r.

Eaglejet and pay-for-training and buy-a-type-rating and work-for-free schemes means that those of us like myself of limited financial means, who scrimped and saved and borrowed for a while and came up with a financially viable plan to get into this business, make a small return on our investments and live a half decent standard of living, just like any other normal wage slaves in other words. We now find when we get to where we wanted to be, that wages and terms and conditions are so severely compromised by rich stupid little :mad: ers who are willing to work for free, that normal blokes are seriously financially compromised and can't even pay our existing loans, let alone earn a decent living, let alone put a bit aside for our old age!

Make no mistake, those of you rushing to buy type ratings now are costing me and all my early-middle-aged colleagues in this business a ton of money, as surely as if you'd come up to me in the street and mugged me and stolen my wallet. And the stupidest thing of all is that you're not only robbing US now, the robbery you're inflicting is going to be 10 times worse for your own grown-up selves and your own children.

If that isn't immoral I'd like to know what is.

Next question?

jamav8r

4th Feb 2006, 14:53

Then in that same token Capitalism is immoral, free markets are immoral; the concept of demand and supply is immoral.

I am presently enrolled in a play to fly scheme, and believe me it wasn’t my first choice. I didn't see it as a way to fast track my way into the airlines, but as a means to continue to build time, time which may seem a bit more appealing to a potential employer.

I would much rather build my time while being paid, but I waited 8 months after completing flight school without a sniff of a job, finally got one flight instructing, then lost that one, by no fault of mine, and sat four more months, again with no prospects. So since I was blessed with financial support to buy block time and keep flying I opted for that.

I fly because I love it, not because I expect a big payoff at the end of the day. Forgive my ignorance as I ask this because I genuinely want to understand your point of view. Explain to me how this is causing you and your colleagues tons of money, and will cost me and my children 10 times over in the future.

hixton

4th Feb 2006, 15:18

Jama if you have an instructor rating and are based in the US without employment I would seriously rethink your plans.
I personnally know many instuctors in the US that have never been out of work, some moving on to airlines, regional jets etc, they would never in a million years think of buying hours.
You live in an ideal place for gods sake, maybe just maybe your not the kind of guy for the aviation game?

757manipulator

4th Feb 2006, 15:20

I fly because I love it, not because I expect a big payoff at the end of the day. Forgive my ignorance as I ask this because I genuinely want to understand your point of view. Explain to me how this is causing you and your colleagues tons of money, and will cost me and my children 10 times over in the future
Another simple one
I am presently beginning a new job with a UK based airline....my starting salary in £4000.00 less than what it would have been had the company not introduced a Pay for your T/Rating scheme last year (Im type rated from a previous airline..who paid for it and I was bonded) and now due to this fact, my salary is capped at an upper level as there is a glut of T/Rated pilots who think that if they "just" get that first job they can fly for a low salary until they get a job with an airline who pay higher salaries.
I would much rather build my time while being paid, but I waited 8 months after completing flight school without a sniff of a job, finally got one flight instructing, then lost that one, by no fault of mine, and sat four more months, again with no prospects. So since I was blessed with financial support to buy block time and keep flying I opted for that.
Jamav8r
I fly because I love it, and because its my profession, I dont need individuals who have more money than sense creating a false and subsidised market place by injecting capital and lowering my terms and conditions. You and the others like you are destroying this industry, use your determination, your skill, and your talent to gain a job, dont use your wallet to buy a job:mad:
Finally ask yourself this question..if everyone buys a job, and pays to fly, why do airlines need to pay salaries? (if you cant figure this out, and dont see how this is destroying our industry, then quite frankly I dont want you or others like you sharing the airspace I operate in)

jamav8r

4th Feb 2006, 15:59

jamav8r

4th Feb 2006, 16:09

Another simple one
I am presently beginning a new job with a UK based airline....my starting salary in £4000.00 less than what it would have been had the company not introduced a Pay for your T/Rating scheme last year (Im type rated from a previous airline..who paid for it and I was bonded) and now due to this fact, my salary is capped at an upper level as there is a glut of T/Rated pilots who think that if they "just" get that first job they can fly for a low salary until they get a job with an airline who pay higher salaries.
Jamav8r
I fly because I love it, and because its my profession, I dont need individuals who have more money than sense creating a false and subsidised market place by injecting capital and lowering my terms and conditions. You and the others like you are destroying this industry, use your determination, your skill, and your talent to gain a job, dont use your wallet to buy a job:mad:
Finally ask yourself this question..if everyone buys a job, and pays to fly, why do airlines need to pay salaries? (if you cant figure this out, and dont see how this is destroying our industry, then quite frankly I dont want you or others like you sharing the airspace I operate in)

I am not buying a job...I am buying time to apply for a job. I am not buying a type rating and no one is promissing me a job when I get done. I don't fly in Europe so I do not know what it is like there. I fly in the Caribbean where there are very few jobs. My other option was to sit at home and do nothing or go find another job, in another field.

I want to fly as much as you do and the fact that I have to pay for flight hours does not make me any less a pilot that you. So this not wanting to share airspace with me is just plain nonsence. Be happy you have a job, you should try sitting around for months to years just to get a job flying a cessna 152 to build time. Try applying to the airlines with that.

Luke SkyToddler

4th Feb 2006, 16:20

757manipulator

4th Feb 2006, 16:35

I want to fly as much as you do and the fact that I have to pay for flight hours does not make me any less a pilot that you. So this not wanting to share airspace with me is just plain nonsence. Be happy you have a job, you should try sitting around for months to years just to get a job flying a cessna 152 to build time. Try applying to the airlines with that

What do you think I did when I didnt have an airline job?..sit at home twiddling my thumbs? no, I flew 152's, 172's, 206's, 210's anything I could get my hands on. I instructed, flew Air Taxi's, did charter work, and also worked about 3 day jobs. So as Luke says, I hope your happy, your ignorance is astounding, so what if your in the caribbean..do you think that because your somewhere else its all that different? newsflash its not.

Yes you are buying a job, yes you are being foolish, what it boils down to is that you are not prepared to work and gain a position on your merits, you like many others are selfish and ignorant, without the benefit of understanding or even listening to those who know a little more about the situation than you evidently do.

I hope your happy:yuk:

jamav8r

4th Feb 2006, 16:54

Excellent mate, you fly because you love it, not because you expect a big payoff at the end of the day. I'm glad that you're getting to do what you love, really I am :ok:
Well rich boy one day you may wake up and find that you have spent all your money, by which time the whole industry will be comprised of you and your rich mates telling yourselves how clever you are for "doing the job you love" and nicely subsidizing Michael O' :mad: ing Leary's latest country estate acquisition in the process.
And I really sincerely hope, that when me and my mates have got nothing but dusty old photos and memories of us doing the job that WE used to love too, before it got too expensive for us to keep up with the rich kids and we had to go work as supermarket shelf stackers or something, I really hope you end up somewhere :mad: ing cold, old lonely and penniless, in some drab grey state funded retirement home, with a good 20 or 30 years of old age to think about what a short sighted stupid loser you were.

Listen Mate, you do not know me...I am not rich.....see previous posts. I bought time to build my flight hours so I can meet the minimum qualification for the lone airline in my country. I will not be guaranteed a job when I am done. I had a job, I lost it because the company was undergoing financial difficulty and could not afford to keep me. I waited months to get that job. And there were no others waiting for me after I lost that one.

I can't get a job in the US as I don't have a green card. I can't fly in Europe as I don't have the ratings nor the legal right to work there either. I cannot fly in neighboring Caribbean islands as I also need to convert to their licenses. So I bought some block hours to keep current and build time to hopefully get an interview back home one day.

I do not know what it is like in Europe, but Jamaica does not operate like over there, there is no type rating scheme, no one buying their way in. Its how it has always been, meet the minimum requirements get and interview and good luck too you.

I do sympathize with your situation, but as I said you do not know me and you should not pass judgment. Good luck to you and fly safely.

jamav8r

4th Feb 2006, 17:06

What do you think I did when I didnt have an airline job?..sit at home twiddling my thumbs? no, I flew 152's, 172's, 206's, 210's anything I could get my hands on. I instructed, flew Air Taxi's, did charter work, and also worked about 3 day jobs. So as Luke says, I hope your happy, your ignorance is astounding, so what if your in the caribbean..do you think that because your somewhere else its all that different? newsflash its not.
Yes you are buying a job, yes you are being foolish, what it boils down to is that you are not prepared to work and gain a position on your merits, you like many others are selfish and ignorant, without the benefit of understanding or even listening to those who know a little more about the situation than you evidently do.
I hope your happy:yuk:

Oh you were there with me when I called ever company with an airplane, and sent dozens of emails, only to hear I didn’t have enough time. You were there with me those frustrating months of sitting and waiting.

You flew 152's and 172's and air taxis because there were such jobs for you to fly. Show me where they are here, I will gladly apply. And no i am not buying a job, I am building time, I had to pay yes but would rather to have done it the way you did but I simply cannot.

I am not a lazy person; if the jobs were there I would take them. Bully to all of you who have jobs and can now sit back and bash me because I chose to spend money I really don't have to try and gain the experience to get a job.

Maybe if any of you were in my position you would be singing a different tune.

Luke SkyToddler

4th Feb 2006, 18:30

I'm sorry jamav8r but I still don't feel sorry for you mate. If you can afford to go buy time in an airliner, then you can go buy time in a piston twin and not do us working pilots out of a job in the process. It's a sh!t situation to be in and you're not the only one, in fact you're one of probably thousands who are in similar positions. People have always made sacrifices and prostituted themselves and worked for little or nothing to get their first break in aviation, have done for decades! Everybody wants to be a pilot eh :hmm:

Difference is, that people used to beg and scrounge hours and work for bugger all on light pistons, doing instructing or air taxi or whatever, and it kind of made sense because you knew that the big holy grail of the 'airline pilot' with the prestige and big bucks was waiting.

What's happened in the last few years that's completely tipped the historical balance of the industry, is that people are now buying time in jobs that used to be once reserved for proper airline pilots, and well paid accordingly. If you would have gone up to some operator of B707s or Tridents or something 30 years ago, and tried to buy some hours, the management would have looked at you like you were crazy, and the airline pilot unions would have run you out of town. The likes of Eaglejet have well and truly crossed that line, and they represent the greatest threat the pilot profession has ever faced.

I don't have anything against people making sacrifices to get into aviation but I believe that the profession of 'airline pilot' has to be protected, against the likes of wannabes like jamav8r who in his own desperation is degrading the working conditions for all of us right now, whether he likes it or not. It's clear to anyone who spends 10 minutes looking around this forum that argument or reason or abuse won't stop the hordes of lemmings throwing their money at the Eaglejets and Sky Europes and Ryanairs of the world, which is why I believe more than ever that we HAVE to fight to restore the historical balance where you couldn't even get sat in a modern turbine engine aircraft without having served your time in smaller machines first. The temptation is clearly too strong for someone in jamav8rs position, the best hope we have is to make buying-line-flying-time schemes illegal if any of us want to have a job worth having in 10 years time.

jamav8r

4th Feb 2006, 19:17

I'm sorry jamav8r but I still don't feel sorry for you mate. If you can afford to go buy time in an airliner, then you can go buy time in a piston twin and not do us working pilots out of a job in the process. It's a sh!t situation to be in and you're not the only one, in fact you're one of probably thousands who are in similar positions. People have always made sacrifices and prostituted themselves and worked for little or nothing to get their first break in aviation, have done for decades! Everybody wants to be a pilot eh :hmm:
Difference is, that people used to beg and scrounge hours and work for bugger all on light pistons, doing instructing or air taxi or whatever, and it kind of made sense because you knew that the big holy grail of the 'airline pilot' with the prestige and big bucks was waiting.
What's happened in the last few years that's completely tipped the historical balance of the industry, is that people are now buying time in jobs that used to be once reserved for proper airline pilots, and well paid accordingly. If you would have gone up to some operator of B707s or Tridents or something 30 years ago, and tried to buy some hours, the management would have looked at you like you were crazy, and the airline pilot unions would have run you out of town. The likes of Eaglejet have well and truly crossed that line, and they represent the greatest threat the pilot profession has ever faced.
I don't have anything against people making sacrifices to get into aviation but I believe that the profession of 'airline pilot' has to be protected, against the likes of wannabes like jamav8r who in his own desperation is degrading the working conditions for all of us right now, whether he likes it or not. It's clear to anyone who spends 10 minutes looking around this forum that argument or reason or abuse won't stop the hordes of lemmings throwing their money at the Eaglejets and Sky Europes and Ryanairs of the world, which is why I believe more than ever that we HAVE to fight to restore the historical balance where you couldn't even get sat in a modern turbine engine aircraft without having served your time in smaller machines first. The temptation is clearly too strong for someone in jamav8rs position, the best hope we have is to make buying-line-flying-time schemes illegal if any of us want to have a job worth having in 10 years time.

Well I’m not sure we are on the same page. My time is in a BE99.......yes it is turbine....but it is no A320.......yes I could have bought time in a piston twin, but turbine time is looked upon more favorably than piston time. I do believe to sit in the right; and eventually left seat, of a big airliner is in fact a privilege that should be worked towards. I would not buy time in a jet; I do feel one must work towards that. However my choice between piston twin or turbine twin time was simple.

As I say I am still willing to sit in any airplane and pay my dues, I just have not been offered a job, any job. So rather than sit idly by, I am gaining experience on a turbo prop aircraft, facing the same dangers and pitfalls as all of you. I may not be paid for what I do but I work just as hard at it as any of you in your paying jobs.

Question, which eagle jet are you referring to?

A320rider

4th Feb 2006, 20:28

Jama has his point, he is no a EU nor a US citizen.
he is f...d! by our system which gives him no chance except to pay to fly or marry a EU/US girl.
so give him a break!

Eagle jet will soon let all of you with empty pockets (and no hours)., I have eared they will file bankrupt before to be "grounded" by the EU commission.that's their plan!

An2

4th Feb 2006, 22:28

A320rider,
Eaglejet is, to best of my knowledge, a U.S-based company.
In what way could the EU possibly get them "grounded"?
"Grounded",....there's another thing. They don't have an AOC. How could a company be grounded if it never gets off the ground anyway?! :confused:
A lot of the companys that Eaglejet does its business with are non-EU. In what way would the EU have any kind of "jurisdiction" to shut them down?!
Sounds like wishful thinking on your part Mr A320rider.:suspect:

Speedbird744

4th Feb 2006, 23:05

A320rider,

Where do hear these rumours of them going bankrupt?
EXPLAIN YOURSELF

Flylevel

5th Feb 2006, 02:24

One big misconception is that you buy yourself enough experience to be able to work as a first officer when you buy yourself time - if that would have been the case you wouldn't be able to buy yourself time in the first place, since you fly as a first officer with passengers when you buy the time!

You do not need any experience to fly as first officer for an airline except for a frozen ATPL and a rating. I fact, many companies employ that type of pilots without any problems. If you have a rating, you can fly the plane! You still have a captain to do the final decisions. The only reason it is easier to get a job with a rating and/or hours on type is because the airlines get hundreds of applications and can't select everybody for an interview.

There is nothing wrong with paying for your own rating if you get an employment. What Eagle Jet does is however wrong because they let people who haven’t been tested fly for airlines that’s only interest is to cut costs in the short term. I have heard several examples of pay-to-fly-pilots who have been far below average and I wonder how many mistakes they have made that haven’t resulted in serious incidents – yet.

Eagle Jet should be stopped in the interest of safety – it has nothing to do with a free market. They don’t have an AOC, but that’s not the issue. The EU can still make it illegal for European airlines to hire pilots who pay to fly.

George Semel

5th Feb 2006, 04:06

Well you go do what you have to do. Its that simple. I don't know where you got the Idea that Light airplane flying like flight instruction or doing single engine charter flying dose not count. It dose and in spades. There are plenty of jobs around, Pan Am Beijing is hiring, you would not have any work permit problems. I turned down a job with them, but hey what can I say. The hard part is not the learning to fly, its how to find a job and get your foot in the door. Sounds to me that You didn't start looking before you were done and had no Idea how to do it. And you ran out of time and now well what do I do now. Guys if you sit and wait for the phone to ring, you are going to have a long wait. There are flight schools all over looking for instructors, and its the slow time in another month or two, things are going to open up quite a bit with the warmer and better weather. Now if you want to get a green card, heck there is a way to get automatic citizenship of the United States if you are young enough and up to it.

Bill O'Reilly

5th Feb 2006, 06:45

Do you think the Formula One authorities are also going to make it illegal to bye a seat in a Grand Prix car?

That has been going on for decades now. It makes it hard for those of us with natural talent to get in – but then again, even Shoemaker paid for his first race in F.1 !

You do what you have to do. Everyone plays their hand as best as they see fit. We are not all dealt the same cards, thus we cannot be expected to purse the same goal by the same route. There will be winners and losers. It may not be fair, but it is real.

-Sure you may sight an individual as unethical for taking up the opportunities available to him within the structure of a particular activity – however you should simultaneously recognize the workings of that activity as unethical. The truth is most of us don’t really like numerous realities of our chosen professions.

Everyone knows that many of the more gifted drivers are never going to enter a Grand Prix because rich kids are buying some of the seats. But slapping their wrists and complaining that this is derogatory to the careers of others just isn’t going to make them stop.

The reality of Forumla One may not be pretty, but if the participants cannot accept it, and nor have the power to change it, then they should take up golf.

hazehoe

5th Feb 2006, 10:46

Bill O'Reilly, what was it again "fair and balanced news",heard that O'Reilly is moving to his favorite country(France);)

The difference is there are no paying pax on board a race car,this is not a rich kids sport but commercial air transport(although i agree it starts to look like it).

Do we have the power to change it?

Yes we do,the pilots are the only ones who can change this. In some company's there are still pilots on the interview board, just chuck anything in the bin that says;bought a TR or i am willing to pay for my own TR.The HR poeple and the poeple buying the TR are not going to change there attitudes.
Of course we will all pay for this in our T&C's, i have been told to play the ball and not the man,called "negative" and all kinds of names .Why?, because i care about this industry and don't want to see it go down the drains by self funders, eagle jet and other predators like them who are taking advantage of poeple's desperation.I don't know where A320 gets his info but even if they would go out of business there are enough others out there willing to fill the gap.Yes,these so called legitimate company's(hour building with pax on board,just read it out loud,does it not sound ridiculous?) will continue to F.ck it up for all of us.Until all pilots stand up against this i am afraid nothing will change.Just keep flipping the coin to justify your buying scheme, i think that poeple who are confronted with there actions on this form get so p.ssed of because they know they are doing the wrong thing and don't want to be reminded.

You work for eagle jet ?

Bill O'Reilly

5th Feb 2006, 12:00

No – I do not work for eaglejet…

But I am considering establishing a similar scheme whereby newly graduated journalists will be able to purchase anchorman time…

After that I envisage extending the program into the medical field. Wannabe surgeons will have the opportunity to purchase theater time. Simple operations will be offered for a minimal fee. Heart-transplants and brain surgery will be priced similar to A320 experience.

Buying your way in is a reality of life – from F1, to politics and sure it is often silly…so good luck in changing it!

- I like the French. They gave us a rather decent statue…

Flylevel

5th Feb 2006, 15:17

Nobody would watch your news broadcast with an anchorman paying for his time (so he would be as good as a "real" anchorman who didn't have to pay) and nobody would have a heart transplant at a hospital where the doctor paid for the surgery so he could learn how to be as good as other doctors. The reason people fly with airlines "employing" Eagle Jet pilots is because of ignorance.

On the other hand, I don't think "educating" the public is a good solution - it would just decrease their confidence in aviation in general.

The other reason doctors don’t pay to work is because the market is stabilized. The salary reflects the investment in the training and the supply of competent wannabe doctors. The “pilot market” is however as unstable as it can be. Temporary fluctuations in demand for air travel have increased the unemployment ratio and the salaries haven’t decreased the way they should have in a perfect market economy. Eventually they will. Salaries will decrease and/or demand for pilots will increase and/or supply of competent pilots will decrease – until the supply/demand has equalized so there will be no more pilots paying to get a job. In the mean time we have to regulate the market the same way as we regulate the interest rate – not because of moral issues but because of economical ones.

cfimei

5th Feb 2006, 16:52

So far, we've heard that Eagle Jet (and I guess we mean Eagle Jet International in Miami) has been reported to the EU and maybe going bust. Two rumors that have not been substantiated by the authors. PPrune is a "rumor network" so it's a forum open to those who may have ulterior motives in spreading negative rumors about an organization. Without substantiation, the allegations are meaningless much like some of the negative comments levelled against Jamav8r, in particular the vitriolic attacks made by LuikeSkyToddler and others.

To those guys I say tough sh.t !! Get off your lazy ass and just DO IT or do you expect a helping hand from the government? And even if the taxpayer supported your training you'd STILL complain about the poor pay and working conditions. Damn, what a bunch of whiners. I guess it's easier to sit in front of a screen and bitch and moan than do something positive. Oh and by the way, not everybody gets the career they've dreamed of. If so then grow up and move on instead of being bitter and nasty towards those who are trying their best. Pathetic mentalities.

cfimei

5th Feb 2006, 17:17

Hold on a second FlyLevel. You say that Eagle Jet is wrong because

"..they let people who haven’t been tested fly for airlines.."

Of course people have been tested! Tested for their type ratings and interviewed by the company. Just because your paying for it doesn't mean to say the airline will accept a 400lb ex mental patient. They do have standards. Airline pilots are continually tested, it's part of the job. And I know from a friend who's a TRI and TRE for Astraeus that quite a few current airline pilots coming through for their 737NG upgrade programs are also far below average and THEY weren't the "pay-to-fly-pilots' you referred to.

Another PPruner who doens't like job competition.

Luke SkyToddler

5th Feb 2006, 21:58

... some of the negative comments levelled against Jamav8r, in particular the vitriolic attacks made by LuikeSkyToddler and others.
To those guys I say tough sh.t !! Get off your lazy ass and just DO IT or do you expect a helping hand from the government? ... er thanks for the motivational speech cfimei but I already got off my lazy ass and did it, a number of years ago, hence why I'm now an airline captain. And even if the taxpayer supported your training you'd STILL complain about the poor pay and working conditions. ... I aren't complaining about my pay and working conditions, they're actually pretty damn good. I'm trying to preserve them so that you, cfimei, may some day enjoy the same career that I've enjoyed so far. Damn, what a bunch of whiners. I guess it's easier to sit in front of a screen and bitch and moan than do something positive. Oh and by the way, not everybody gets the career they've dreamed of. If so then grow up and move on instead of being bitter and nasty towards those who are trying their best. Pathetic mentalities. Unsure who you're trying to insult here, me or him? I've got 'the career I've always dreamed of' thanks very much. I don't really think that some huffy little school-playground 'grow up and move on', is a sensible riposte to the pretty deep issues that myself and 757manipulator are trying to highlight here. You may or may not like it mate, but it's these very issues that may well determine YOUR future in aviation so lets discuss them properly OK?

So come on then guys, jamav8r we've heard your hard luck story as to why we shouldn't all judge you so harshly because you've tried everything else and this is the only way you could get into aviation. Surely even you can agree that the theory is only going to work, until 100 other jamaican wannabes get the same idea, and then you're all going to have to find something else to buy / an even lower level to lower yourself to, in order to make yourself stand out from the pack?

Cfimei all that you really have offered the debate so far is vague accusations of ulterior motives, negativity and unfounded bitterness towards myself, OK you're entitled to think whatever you want about me personally, I don't give a rat's @rse, but I'd like to hear you actually rebuff my specific concerns about these schemes.

Specifically then, can any of you apologists for Eaglejet, offer a single rationed and reasonable argument, as to why the continued proliferation of these kinds of companies and these schemes, could lead to anything but the utter destruction of commercial piloting as a viable career path?

Say again s l o w l y

5th Feb 2006, 22:39

I very much doubt they can....

DeltaSix

5th Feb 2006, 22:40

I also don't like the idea of paying for your type rating and paying to get those precious jet hours as not everyone can afford it. But seriously, I think we are not being fair to Jamav8r as he is not the only one who is about to, or has done it. If this trend has already started, and I am sure it has, It is already too late to stop it. Even if Eagle Jet closes, another one would only take it's place in one form or another.... believe me. There is already one planned in Indonesia with pilots bearing JAA licenses queing up.

Face it guys, the only thing permanent in this world is the word "CHANGE".

Everything evolves from something. I know most of you guys are already set in your ways of thinking of getting into the airline pilot's job, but we have to realize that the whole aviation industry is changing rapidly and it might be for the worse sad to say. Unfortunately, the word "security of tenure" in the airline pilot's job will be compromised more that this thing is already starting.

We must find a way of protecting it in some other way as the growing number of newbies climbing up the ladder and paying for it will be hard to stop.

I reckon you guys already sitting inside Boeings and Airbuses and others need to put your heads together and plan a strategy to protect your interests inside your respective airlines. There is no other way. I don't know how but if there is a will there is a way. So instead of trying to stop the tidal wave namely "Pay-to-fly", get to your solicitors and lawyers to work out a strategy for you to protect your income and job and future type ratings.

Just another sign - I looked at a website of a renowned middle eastern airline and I was shocked when I read that they required a prospective B747 captain to give a bank guarantee so he can be given a type rating on an Airbus. Isn't this almost have the same essence as paying for your type rating ?

Unfortunately there is another one that you might want to consider. The law of supply and demand. As more pilots comes up the ladder, the lower the pay will go.

Face it guys, were screwed....Geeezzzz.......

D6

zakpeegoodus

6th Feb 2006, 04:42

I am wondering why/how eagaljet would go bankrupt, given that all they do is take a commission for their ‘service’ and act as an agent between pilot and airline?
Surely they would have minimal overheads and expenses. I can see that they would make no money if they had no clients – however as they have no assets to maintain (other than perhaps an office and computers) they would have few out going expenses (maybe just wages?) and not much was of accumulating large amount of debt?

How could the possible loose so much money that they would need to go bankrupt?

Flylevel

6th Feb 2006, 06:18

How could the possible loose so much money that they would need to go bankrupt?

If you would have read the previous posts you would know the issue is about legislation - it has nothing to do with their economics.

Flylevel

6th Feb 2006, 06:50

Hold on a second FlyLevel. [...] Another PPruner who doens't like job competition.

I love job competition! But Eagle Jet is not job competition; they're simply screwing up the market while in change. When the market has stabilized (if allowed to!) there will be no more pilots paying to fly. All that the pay-to-fly pilots do at the moment is to increase the sinusoidal variations in the market. If that were to continue in a big scale, we would soon face a shortage of pilots, airplanes being grounded because there were nobody to fly them and pilot wages skyrocketing (hey, who wouldn't want that!)! Seriously, that would have a negative impact on the market.

Of course, all this would repeat itself again and again and again. This is exactly why we regulate the interest rate!

zakpeegoodus

6th Feb 2006, 12:08

"If you would have read the previous posts you would know the issue is about legislation - it has nothing to do with their economics"

Then why the rumor that they may go bankrupt?? If they were legislated out of business wouldn’t they just cease operations? They would not necessary have to file as bankrupt?

…Still I suppose the end result for wannabes would be the same…

A320rider

6th Feb 2006, 12:27

the EU commission (for the EU open sky) is actually debating on this "pay to work" scam organized with JAA companies, and it could have a serious impact on Eaglejet Operations this year.
(this is what I was meaning by "grounding").

clouds101

6th Feb 2006, 14:07

A320rider, would you be so kind to share the source of your information?
I could not find anything on the EU web site regarding this issue
and even after contacting these good hard working people at the EU I did not get any wiser (they simply didn't know what I was talking about).
http://europa.eu.int/comm/index_en.htm

A320rider

6th Feb 2006, 19:51

you can complain or ask here :

European Commission
Directorate-General for Energy and Transport
B-1049 Brussels

fax (32-2) 299 10 15
e-mail:
[email protected]

cfimei

12th Feb 2006, 17:34

So LukeSkyToddler you're an airline captain now? Then why did you say in an earlier post:

"...before it got too expensive for us to keep up with the rich kids and we had to go work as supermarket shelf stackers or something..."

What do you mean by too expensive? If you've got a flying job how can it be too expensive for you?

Secondly you ask me to keep the topic sensible but again from your earlier post you stated to Jamvr8:

"I really hope you end up somewhere ....ing cold, old lonely and penniless, in some drab grey state funded retirement home, with a good 20 or 30 years of old age to think about what a short sighted stupid loser you were."

That vitriolic outburst targetted to an individual certainly doesn't add anything constructive to this discussion.

Yes, I am paying for my type rating and yes I will be paying for some FO line experience with Eagle Jet, probably in the far east. Why? Because I've saved hard to do it and until the airlines decide it's not economic or safe for them to continue these programs there's very little that people like you can do to stop it. I suggest if you have a complaint you take it up with the airlines and stop having a go at us who want to be sitting where u are. I love to fly, it has been and always will be my passion in life. I don't particularly care if I'm earning 40k a year or 200k - it'll certainly pay more than stocking shelves in a supermarket and so what if you have to work long hours? We're all working longer hours for less pay no matter what the job is. This is all about the politics of greed and selfishness - I want everything yet I don't want to work that hard for it.

And in response to A320Rider - the EU may limit Eagle Jet's operation in Europe but so what? European aviation is drowing in regulations anyway. Partly one reason why it costs so much to get trained in the first place and do the accident statistics show a JAA license make a pilot any safer than our FAA counterparts? But that opens up another can of worms!

Luke SkyToddler

12th Feb 2006, 18:20

Errr hello cfimei, I am SO glad you decided to keep this thread alive, because you've had 6 days to come up with an answer to my question, let me just remind you again what it was in case you missed it :

can any of you apologists for Eaglejet, offer a single rationed and reasonable argument, as to why the continued proliferation of these kinds of companies and these schemes, could lead to anything but the utter destruction of commercial piloting as a viable career path?

If you can't even come up with a single defense then don't be too surprised if I keep on pouring vitriol on you son!

This is all about the politics of greed and selfishness
Well you got that part right mate :(

As for your kind suggestion that me and my employed colleagues take it up with airline management, do you really think that isn't already happening? There's no chance of anyone buying time at the regional operator I'm with now, because fortunately my chief pilot holds the work-for-free brigade in nearly as much contempt as I do. Any CVs that even hint at that kind of thing go straight in the bin.

There are in fact some very senior pilots in the industry that are actually very concerned about this thing, not just a bunch of anonymous names on PPRuNe. Maybe with that will come the realization for you guys, that for every door that you think you're opening with your Eaglejet hours, there are a bunch of other doors at decent, respectable airlines, that you have closed to yourselves, and you don't even know it :yuk:

hixton

12th Feb 2006, 18:24

People make me laugh when they say they do it because they love flying.
If you love flying hands on, stick small because you sure wont be flying the big jets, there is that little thing called the autopilot.

Sandshrew

12th Feb 2006, 19:08

I wile ago the question was if you should pay for your own MCC or not. It became the norm and people started to arguing about type ratings, today most companies requires you to pay for it your self in one way or an other. Now the debate is about line training and soon it might also be the norm and new requirement will arise. Probably the only thing that could stop this development is if the job market change and the airlines have to lower their requirements to find pilots.

ACP

12th Feb 2006, 21:55

Luke Sky Toddler,

I heard a lot of guys like you saying that self funding a line training will prevent the pilot from joining a respectable airline bla bla bla....
I decided to go that way over a year ago and I am now flying the A320 in a respectable airline in Asia and believe me even if some senior pilots are against this idea, there is no problem if you do a quality job and if your personality fits. Anyway, they know that guys from eaglejet or whatever won't be able to pay more than their first 500 hours of experience on type. So where is the problem? Paying for our experience on type does not mean that we are bad pilots, it is just one solution to put our CV out of the pile. (and everyone is free to do whatever he wants with his money).

Any CVs that even hint at that kind of thing go straight in the bin.

Most chef pilots or DFOs in major airlines (even in Europe) have no idea which airlines are giving pay to fly services. If you are stupid enough to say that you paid your line training... The airline I went through is well known in Asia and I sent few months ago my resume to a major in the UK; I have been invited for an interview thanks to my hours on type I suppose. It maybe a proof that my CV has not been sent to the bin.

Go and do whatever it takes to get the job , even paying your TR or line training (if you have no other choice). Do not listen jealous guys, most of them are loosers who spend their time criticize on a forum because they're scared to move their ass.

paradropper

13th Feb 2006, 09:51

RVR800

13th Feb 2006, 15:58

This is all symptomatic of any industry that is aggressively looking at ways to reduce costs. The world however isnt a fair place. So I can sympathise with those that cannot continue to subsidise that process of reducing costs. Its also supply and demand and low world interest rates that have caused this.

haughtney1

13th Feb 2006, 16:23

The airline I went through is well known in Asia and I sent few months ago my resume to a major in the UK; I have been invited for an interview thanks to my hours on type I suppose. It maybe a proof that my CV has not been sent to the bin.
Dont be so sure of yourself here....there are 3 airlines in Asia that offer the scheme you've been on, all very well known, be prepared to answer honestly in your interview, particularly if your coming to an interview in the UK:hmm:
Go and do whatever it takes to get the job , even paying your TR or line training (if you have no other choice). Do not listen jealous guys, most of them are loosers who spend their time criticize on a forum because they're scared to move their ass.
No most of us on here that offer rebutal to your point of view to your comments, actually work in the industry, we see how your selfish and ignorant behaviour is destroying the existing terms and conditions of those presently employed, and of how your greed and impatience will ultimately cause the erosion of your employment package. What pray tell me will you do when you want to move to another type?..pay for the rating and line training all over again?
Get in the real world....PLENTY of senior people are not happy with this kind of thing:hmm: (I know of another CP who does exactly as Luke says)

hazehoe

13th Feb 2006, 17:31

Today i had to go down the office and while there i had a chat with somebody who is in charge of filtering the CV's before they move "up". He showed me some of the CV's, willing to fund a TP type rating(no surprise), some stated that "salary was negotaible" or similar langauge.Never seen the guy before and he turned out to be a nice chap.Now the fun begins,i put the the self funding offers on one pile and said that these should go in the bin.Didn't expect that to happen but it did,he started to slide a bunch of them in to the shredder!!
The best part is where he gave me a couple of CV's to stuff in the shredder,of you go.It really made my day:D

Who said nobody could make a difference ?

LAX

14th Feb 2006, 09:45

hazehoe

I dont disagree with your point of view. I can see you are passionate about this subject. However, by shredding CVs you are being vindictive to some of the most vunerable people in aviaition, those who have yet to find a foot on the ladder.

I would suggest next time you are in the office you talk to the company Accountant and persaude him or her to start properly paying for individuals to be trained. I think you will find the financial community are the biggests culprits to the creation of TRSS, buy a type rating, 300hrs and we will give you a job etc, etc.

Posh boy

14th Feb 2006, 18:02

What you do with your money guys is totally up to you.
Be very careful who you spend your money with chaps.
I've spoken recently to a guy who is on the case in Brussles.
Just watch what is going to happen in a few months time.

tigermagicjohn

15th Feb 2006, 02:26

Here is a question I would like to know.
I have a friend that is a dentist in Italy, he is a very good dentist and went 5 years to school for this.

Now my friend is 45 years old, he has is own dentist business. Self employed. Every week he goes 2 days to school in France to further his education, to improve his education with new technology. He pays for the travel and for the course to improve his position as a dentist.
He has now become an expert on lazer technology in the dentist field, and now has license to teach/instruct other dentists of this technology!
His actually become one of the most leading in Italy with this technology. He has been doing this since he finished dentist school, going few days every month in the beging taking new courses improving his skills.
He invested in new equipment worth 250.000 Euro for his office - my friend is not a millionare! He is passionate for his work and business, so invested in himself.

I am self employed, I have been self employed all my life. When I was young (18 years old) I used to work 12 hours a day in a factory to get enough money to get my flying hours, I took 150 hours night and day, all payed by me. In 1988 each flying hour was £50 (in Norway) Nobody helped me, I had NO rich family, but I made sacrifices myself. I did not go out an enjoy the good life, I did not waste my money on stupid cars, or beautifull girls (they wasted their money on me instead) :ok:

Because of lack of money I gave up my DREAM, since I was 13 years old. I took my PPL during time at college and finish college, I was 19 when I got my PPL. (I did not have the money, I could not get into any sponsorships because that time it did not exist to many, and the few that was around was like a lottery anyway - wearing glasses you would be F.... d anyway that time)

Yes I am bitter on the system, because most of the pilots around are "lazy" airforce pilots, that had all their education payed for by the government, they had a free pass to all Scandinavien airlines in the 80's and 90's. They were the chosen ones ALWAYS.
Now I have worked hard for myself and I have built a business that I can run even if I should start flying, I am 36, I am getting old to start, and I know jobs will be limited because of my age and experience. I have to money to INVEST in my OWN future, because yes this for me is my passion, but it is also a business venture. I expect to get results within a certain amount of time. Altough I would love to spend 8 years to get enough flight experience to land a job, the fact is that I will be 44 years old by then. So this for me is not a good idea.

However I see myself doing example EFTA 1500 hours multi program, then Type and buying myself block hours eg. 300 - 500 on Boeing. Why?

Because then I will be competitve at the age of 39 - 40, instead of 44. The money I have spent extra to get to my level of experience, will be a good investment considering I then have 4 years extra to get a job, I will have 4 years more to be working in my career if I choose this.

The true fact running my own current business full time I could make the triple that I would be making as an airline pilot, so money is not the essence of this, its passion. Nobody can say I am spoiled rich kid, because choosing this way I make big sacrifices, just like all have done to reach their goals.

I understand many of you on this thread does not understand the concept of business to well, passion is flying, but we want it to add up contra the investment end of the day. What is the size of the investment to improve my skills and be better educated (if taking type rating and block hours) compared to the investment of my friend who is a self employed dentist!
All professional aim to better themselves and get better education. So they will be better qualified.

How many of you experienced pilots in the airline come with background from the airforce? This was free, government paid training! Give me that chance any day, I would go trough hell to qualify, but NO I was not given that chance!
But instead of staying in the airforce, where your training was free and you was paid, you have come to the civilian airlines, taken the best jobs, the best paid jobs, and your education have cost you 0!

I want to be competitve with the next airforce pilot coming trough to go civilian, why dont they stay where they had all FREE! Is it because there is more money with the airlines?
I wonder why!!!
I understand pilots saying this schemes undermines the pilots jobs, but they have themselves created this situation! They have tried to make it an elite job, by often frowning on privately educated pilots from the USA. Airlines in europe have had their own academys and the airforce to choose from, while privately educated pilots have been 3.rd class category, the last resort if they cant get anyone better.
So Eagle offers a scheme to give pilots more experience, to get a better qualification.

"you who said you had 3 friends after Eagle that was without a job" - I bet you that they will have a job long before others with lesser experience if they accept to go working anywhere in the world for an airline job!
I believe with 500 hours on type you will be able to get a job as an airline pilot, unless you have to many conditions to take care of! Family, location etc.
If I decided to go ahead with EFT and type and Eagle block, this would all cost me approx. $140.000 or £80.000 - This would prolong my career in the aviation with 4 years - Will I be able to make up the balance of these £80.000 within 4 years, I think so, that would be £20.000 each year.

tigermagicjohn

15th Feb 2006, 02:51

Just one short remark, why should I be punished because I have worked hard and found a way to pay for my hours other then just instruct. Most instructing jobs are mostly on single engine, so they have little or no value - and they are also under paid, because of the supply and demand! The rot already starts on this level.
Flight schools tempting students on J1 Visa, to come and fly for 15 months - ONLY TO BENEFIT the schools. Those 15 months if unlucky can cost you your whole education - because the schools always promise more then they are willing to actually give you. Then its every one for their own already at this level.

Personally I would want to instruct for a period of time to gain I believe valuable experience. But there would be a limit for me for how long time I would be willing to do that.

Its not ONLY rich kids who do this, this I am sure of, I think people invest in their future, possibly taking big risks, bigger risks then most of you already sitting in the cosy left hand seat have ever needed to take.
The ones sitting in the right hands seat today belongs to the golden age, for the newbies life is harder!

Flylevel

15th Feb 2006, 09:03

tigermagicjohn,

you're missing the big picture. Paying to work for 300 or 500 hours is not training. You don't need that hours to have experience enough to fly for the airlines; if you have a rating you are more then well prepared. The only reason people who have bought their time are employed instead of others is because - they have more time! If the schemes were not allowed, the airlines would have to choose from the big pilot group consisting of pilots without the rating and/or time and you would be able to compete with ALL other pilots, instead of just the ones who pay to cut the line.

Now my friend is 45 years old, he has is own dentist business. Self employed.
That's exactly the difference between having your own business and being employed! If you have your own business, you pay for all the costs yourself!

Yes I am bitter on the system, because most of the pilots around are "lazy" airforce pilots, that had all their education payed for by the government, they had a free pass to all Scandinavien airlines in the 80's and 90's. They were the chosen ones ALWAYS.
What's that supposed to mean? With "lazy" and "free pass" and "chosen ones", do you mean the very extensive selection process they all have to go through? What all pilots who don't pay for their training have to go through.

Give me that chance any day, I would go trough hell to qualify, but NO I was not given that chance!
What!? What do you mean give you the chance!? You have had the chance all your life and obviously you haven't qualified!!! You don't "go through hell" to qualify, you have the right requirements (genes, education, etc.). Or do you think everybody who wants to be a pilot should be admitted?

I believe with 500 hours on type you will be able to get a job as an airline pilot, unless you have to many conditions to take care of!
Don't be fooled! Even with 500 hours on type you will have to go through a rigorous assessment process. To be "of the right stuff" is far more important then having 500 hours on type.

Most instructing jobs are mostly on single engine, so they have little or no value - and they are also under paid, because of the supply and demand!
You say that you "understand many of [us] on this thread [do] not understand the concept of business to well". If the pay is determined by supply and demand it can't by definition be under paid! To me it seems you desperately try to justify to yourself why you should be able to be a pilot by mixing bad economics with jealousy. The difference between instructing and Eagle Jet is that instructors have always been low paid because of supply and demand, whereas what's happening now with Eagle Jet is just temporary mainly because of the temporary recession in aviation. It is of everybody's interest to regulate this until the system has found its pace.

Please stop discussing if this is right or wrong. Nobody who should care does care! The few airlines that "employ" pay-to-fly pilots do so to cut costs, not because they think it's the right thing to do. Eagle Jet obviously does it to make money, not because they feel the urge to help lowtimers. And finally, the people who buy in to the scheme do it to cut the line. If the EU is going to stop this it will be because of simple economics.

tigermagicjohn

15th Feb 2006, 10:07

A rating alone is useless without hours. At many airlines now the minimum to qualify to apply as FO is 500 hours on type! (commercial)

To say that a low hour pilot with who takes type and line training at own expense is dangerous, would undermine the cadet system used by BA and Lufthansa.
These are low hour pilots who fly FO after minimal time.

Regarding the free pass of airforce pilots, there is something you dont understand on this point, I passed all aptitude tests, education test, I even had my PPL within 50 hours - because of refractive error on glasses they can pick who they want. Airforce pilots are not often the best pilots for CAA, because they are solo operators when flying jets.
I am not jealous of this, I believe most would have loved to fly fighter jets, I also believe most that are really interested would not have mind the selection process. As an example for my I passed all tests except "i was wearing glasses" - they offered me higher officer school for the army, but I said f... them, not interested. They have their selection process and so do I.
Now these pilots tie themelves to many years contract and have a safe job for life, still these pilots normally as soon as their bonding period expires seek to get into civilian aviation. And they get "free pass" by the airlines when applying the jobs that are available.
I know this was at least a fact in 80's and 90's with SAS, all airforce pilots finish bonding period would go direct into SAS. And they only go civilian motivated by MONEY!

Now this I dont understand, now you make your calculations as a civilian education you will spend around £60.000 to get your certs. - you will spend another 3 - 4 years living on bread and water instructing. If you want to get your type rating spend another £20.000 which is useless if you have 0 hours, nobody will hire you with this.

Regarding assesment test for being the right stuff, this does not daunt me the slightest, I am not being arrogant on that issue - this is different from person to person, but assesment tests, aptitude tests does not frighten me the slightest. What frightens me is that today if you show your application with 1500 hours total time, and if you have managed to set up 500 - 700 hours multiengine as instructor this will most likely NOT qualify you for getting an airline job! Most want 500 hours on JET as a starter!

I would be very interested to know how many hours an airforce jet flyer has logged within a similar 2 year period as you would get logging 1500 hours training and instructing!

Now you also say I am jealous, why?? I dont understand, by looking at some of the threads on here, I am not sure why I should be jealous! It seems the times are so hard, and it seems the ones already with one foot inside the business only to easy try to advice others "not" to do this or that. Dont buy hours, dont go working for Ryan Air, dont pay for your own type rating, its easy for the ones already in a steady job to say this. What about those pilots with few thousand hours, loads of experience but cant get job, because their experience are on the wrong type of aircrafts that will land them jobs.

Me being jealous is ridiculos, I do understand if people cant afford to pay for this they are frustrated, they feel its unfair, unsocialistic - but we dont live in China or Russia - as for Eagle being shut down in Europe, this does not matter, if somebody is doing this for experience they will go wherever they need to go - and EU will have no effect on this business in Asia.

I think some are talking double standards in this case, because being able to save up this kind of money means one is making great sacrifices. If I decide to go ahead and invest this money in myself, I am actually an IDIOT, because if I spent this money on my other business I would probably triple it within 6 - 12 months, but this is my choice.

Now some want pilots who do this to be blacklisted, that their applications should be shredded! Maybe the airlines should have opened up for more cadet programs then, because first of all it would have ment less people wasting their money on flight schools, because they would go trough the selection process and education with the airline and be guaranteed a job. Instead the airlines prefer to see people believe in the illusion that there might be job at end of the road, after you have spent £60.000 and have 200 hours flying time. We all know there is no jobs there now with that amount of time, however this does not mean that these are bad pilots.

Actually several airlines with their own cadet program have let cadets step in as FO with very little total time, but pilots from "outside" must beg, cry and scream to be heard. I am definatly not jealous - actually the way I see it maybe I would enjoy just flying for myself.
I have a friend who is FO on 747 for Cathay, he say now the only flying he enjoys is when he has time to go flying with the sailplane!

Personally I love to fly, and have yet to decide what I am going to with my passion, but reading some of you guys experiences it seems like a job from hell! If you at all get the job!

Flylevel

15th Feb 2006, 13:44

A rating alone is useless without hours. At many airlines now the minimum to qualify to apply as FO is 500 hours on type!
Exactly! That is because they don't want to hire lowtimers without real job experience; they want to hire pilots who can start flying as FOs the first day. They want to hire FOs who have already been employed by other airlines. That is how THEY believe they should do business. Other airlines (like Ryanair and Easyjet) hire lowtimers without any experience. The pay is less the first years. Which way a specific airline chooses depends on many things (e.g. interest calculated for costing purposes, pilot turnover and company culture).
If you buy yourself 300 or 500 hours on type, you will most definitely not qualify for airlines requiring a MINUMUM 500 hours on type.

tigermagicjohn

15th Feb 2006, 15:42

Explain me what makes 500 hours that you buy less valuable experience hours then 500 hours you work and get paid!
Besides the morale issue, how does this make a difference.

500 hours on type as FO is 500 hours no matter how you do it, paid or pay for it!

Please have some substance to your argument!

You log book will have 500 hours logged on a 737 or A320 - also from what I have heard many pilots get hired with the airline they fly with, because you have invested in your own line training and type rating, as longs as you are of the right stuff it makes little sense to let you go unless you get a better offer.

Point is that at least you will get an offer with 500 hours logged on type, with type rating you will get 0 !

hixton

15th Feb 2006, 16:37

I think most of the people going for these schemes are pretty desperate.
They are probably at their wits end because thay have nowhere to turn due to the fact that they are not good pilot material. It probably looks like a short cut to bypassing the selection process.
The reson why airlines havn`t chosen these guys is probably simply that they dont fit the profile of pilots that they employ.
Just because you have an ATPL doesnt mean your going to make a good pilot.
Try bettering yourself as a person before trying to shortcut the whole thing otherwise it could go tits up a bit further down the line.

tigermagicjohn

15th Feb 2006, 17:44

The words jealous and desperate comes from to of the respondents here! Vow!!
I actually dont understand where you get this from!

First the reply just comes with a statement, without any facts to back up their statement.

Let me ask you when did airlines companies become moral? At what point do they decide if they will take you or not?

Now I am probably a lot older then the last couple of replies, 36 years old! This is on the edge of where one should consider to start such a career. I am neither jealous or desperate, however I have been clever, worked hard and saved my money, and want to do something I like with MY MONEY, that I have WORKED VERY HARD FOR!

When I was young I decided against pursuing a pilot career because of the cost that was involved and my lack of funds. (I NO LONGER HAVE THESE LACK OF FUNDS)
I refused to pursue a military career in the army, even if I was offered place in the Norwegian Krigsskolen, this higher officer training in Norwegian army, why? Because I had not motivation or intrest for this..

Even during my early 20's I chose a life many could only dream of, and I found it nearly as intresting as pilot career, maybe sometimes even more challenging. I was show producer and wild animal trainer (tigers and lions)
Then I had an ex girlfriend that f:mad: me for all my money and work, and at the age of 32 started a new business with £200 a week job living in London. Note the following I started with £200, and now can if I want sponser my whole education , type rating and 500 hours jet training with MY OWN MONEY! Make the calcualation, and tell me if you make this money within your first 4 years as a pilot?

I very much recent some of you guys attitude, actually I feel there is a bit of jealousy and bitterness from you wannabes that wish you could be in similar financial situation, but due to lack of mult task talent you are not able to concentrate about more then one thing at a time.

I know PPL is easy, however I took my PPL in Norway, I starterd the theory when I was 17 and still at college, I did self study, the Norwegian Aero Club sent me all the theory books, after few months I took my theory exam and passed it first time. (By the way same time that I took my A-levels) When I was 18/19 I combined my final year at college, flying lessons for PPL and part time job to PAY FOR MY OWN FLYING HOURS. Then when 19 I had part time factory job 12 hours a day, for 4 days a week, followed by 3.5 days non stop flying for PPL.

Because of the cost to travel to America, and because I did not HAVE RICH DADDY to back me up, I did not go to USA flight school when I was 21 as I had planned to do. Sometimes in life things doesnt always work out as you plan, however I HAVE NO REGRETS. I found another passion, you can actually have more then 1 passion in life, and that does not make it less.
I started travelling world wide, and got to know many pilots flying cargo jumbo jets, because my show travelled world wide, Asia and Mexico and USA.
Actually during these cargo flights I got the impression that the job could actually seem rather boring. There is not actually much real flying left for the pilot, still I have this attraction within me that I cant stop. But probably to be honest I would proably see more challenge and intrest in bush flying, that is real flying, and not some half automated robotic controller!

So you dare not judge me without knowing me, if you know me you can judge me! However neither of the last 2 comments says anything with any backing up of facts. Or as they say you are talking out of your a:mad: !

If I decide to fly, do you think I will limit myself only to fly in europe? I say it like this, find me a cockpit anywhere in the world, and I will call that my home. My friend who flies for Cathay tells me that there is much work in Asia if you are willing to move there! Now I have some experience in life, good and bad, I have done what I have done!
For you there under 25 remember one thing, the world is a rat race, only the strongest survive!

I dont want put anyone done, but it seems that the attitude of some of you guys in this thread stinks of double standard and false pretences. We dont live in a world that is fair, we dont live in a world where its always a happy ending. My motto has always been, where there is a will, there is a way!

Rise to the challenge and present your argument properly, and back it with some facts, instead of just throwing around slander - that is only based on your personal sad situation of life!

How do you bypass the selection process? In what way? Just because like airforce pilots you show jet experience instead of ONLY instruction time PIC on single engine!
Any airline will put you trough the same selection procedure, only difference is that you WILL ACTUALLY BE CONSIDERD, before you have spent 8 years instructing.

Tell me if you work as instructor for 3 years, how much will that cost you incl. living expenses to maybe get enough hours to maybe be able to find some place to apply for a job!

Calculate the difference and tell me what are your savings by not doing this?

hixton

15th Feb 2006, 18:22

Hey dude maybe your business is writing books for a living but cant you help yourself from filling up the whole dam screen??
Go on this is your life!

tigermagicjohn

15th Feb 2006, 20:10

Dont worry, I will be away in Miami for 3 weeks, so wont bother to fill up these screens until I return again! :ok:

Anyway thanks for a very insightfull and helpfull reply, as always! :E

Sandshrew

15th Feb 2006, 20:37

tigermagicjohn,
It’s true, many pilots do get hired with a self funded rating and hours,
But in your case, don’t waste your time “filling up the whole dam screen”.:} As you know the airline industry and the global market went down 2001 to hit the bottom at 2003, now we are in an upturn, (Hopefully many pilots will get hired in the near future without paying for hours) but for how long? Start your training now to get on the train eeh.. plane. :ok:

Of course self funded pilots have to pass interviews and sim check just like everyone else, and they don’t magically become bad pilots just because they paid for the experience themselves.

aviationmug

16th Feb 2006, 01:48

They are probably at their wits end because thay have nowhere to turn due to the fact that they are not good pilot material.

Listen here my friend, I am currently looking at buying some jet time.
I am in fact a good pilot, have a current flying job, and have around 6000 hrs of flight experience. incl. around 3000 of small turbine.

My father, who is a dentist, last year spent around $30,000 on equipment and travel for training courses etc. This was to further his position in his career and to aquire the expereince to thus charge his patients a greater price.

So whats the difference, paying for a few block hrs in a jet with the view to gaining a position for example as a contract jet pilot, shouldn't be such a big drama.:} :}

Little Miss

16th Feb 2006, 03:10

I don t normally participate in threads, but for some reason this one has really got to me.

Hazehoe - How could you? Shredding peoples CVs thats not nice and to be honest do you really think that is the behaviour of a mature pilot.

To be honest some days I wonder, we are suppose to be professionals ( ok that comment should not start the whole people who pay for hours are not professionals conversation) so why do we behave like children.

People who have problems with rich daddies, are you the ones who used to stand outside my school gate and throw things at me and my friends because me dad paid for a private school?

Like someone else said, life is like a deck of cards, some people get handed a better hand than others, some make wise choices, some make bad. Admittely if you re good at the game / being a pilot, then success may be a little more likely but not always the fact.

Now as someone said airlines know what airlines in Asia hire guys who pay for hours. Well do they know the differents between those that paid and those that got hired on a contract. I hope they do, I work, yes work, eg get paid, for an airline who takes/ took in Eaglejet pilots. So how will future employees know I didn t pay. Maybe someone like Hazehoe found my CV made a very rash judgement about who I might be due to the hours I had and the company I worked for and put it in the bin.

As for 500 hours worked and 500 hours bought, they are no different in experience, and unless you work side by side with people who bought hours you will never know. We have the same training captains, we have the same routes, same duty time, same aircraft, same SOPs and same 6 month check, we will also have the same spot checks. So how are their hours different to mine. They are not!!!

500 hours makes me a better pilot, why ? ( I know you guys like reason for every rash statement) Because before 500 hours, with say 40 hours I thought I was fairly good at my job, I now know how much I didn t know, how much better I know the technical side of my aircraft, how much if I went for an interview I would feel confident.

Should Eaglejet be stopped ? Well that depends, are people who pass the type rating below par, if so are you not accusing the people who did the test of letting sub standard people through, if si then those people should be held accountable. But by saying this you are saying that a fellow pilot is knowing sending people out there who are dangerous!!

Anyway just one last thing I live by a mantra,

DO AS YOU WOULD BE DONE BY

Next time people send vicious replies maybe you should take a look and think would I want someone else to treat me the way I treat them. Are they anyless of a human being because they do not follow my believes!

Luke SkyToddler

16th Feb 2006, 05:33

Blah blah blah sob sob my life's so hard and bought hours are as good as earned hours blah blah and I couldn't get into the airforce sob sob sob and I didn't have a rich daddy at all so stop picking on me blah blah sob sob.

Another couple of pages of hard luck stories and excuses and moral justifications and bitching and whining have come and gone in this thread and you lot STILL don't get it do you?

The reason Hazehoe was shredding CVs with such gleeful abandon (along with me, a great number of other chief pilots and recruitment personnel etc) has got nothing to do with the quality of the hours or the quality of the person concerned or otherwise, you might be the next Chuck Yeager or the next Mother Teresa for that matter.

The reason Hazehoe was shredding your CVs, and me and haughtney and anyone else who cares about the future of this industry, keep ripping into you lot purchasing these hours, is because your actions are taking money from the pocket of employed pilots right now, and destroying the future of this industry for ALL airline pilots.

Keep it coming for another 20 pages and you cant change that simple basic fact.

Little Miss

16th Feb 2006, 05:38

Oh dear.

I never bought hours.

Yet I don t feel the need to rip into people like they were little more than something you find on the bottom of your shoe.

Its a choice, not your choice, not my choice but a choice.

We should respect everyone for their choices.

As for the CV thing, do you really think that is a moral reason for not letting the people who matter make the choice?
If the chief pilots do it then fine, if head of recruitment, then fine, an airline has the right to make that choice, but a paper pusher does not have the right to make that choice.

CHOICE.

hazehoe

16th Feb 2006, 07:46

Little Missy

Please stop the politically correct mumbo jumbo(not nice,not professional,not mature etc,).

I do not respect anybody's choice to buy 500 hours, not because of the quality of hours(yes they are the same,why would they not be?)but because your buying buddy's are turning a professional pilot carreer path in to a joke.
I should be "nice" to sombody who will without a doubt cost me and my family money? I din't turn this industry in what it is today,i am trying to make a living in it.You must be joking. i don't care on which side of my shoe you are, you are going to get it.

Can you come up with some more "reason for rash statement" why you believe that this whole trend could lead to anything else than the destruction of a carreer path in professional aviation? No you can not ,thank you very much.Non of you have answered this question,many times asked here.You keep going on about your right of choices,respect,there are many different routes,the dentist and other nonsense

So you had a bad time as a child in private school and now you want to be treated nice and with respect? you would have to earn it first.

Wake up and step in to the real world.

Little Miss

16th Feb 2006, 08:02

No no I never had a bad time at school, I just never understood those people who as so angry at complete strangers.

Unfortunately you can pretty much date the time the airline industry was brought down to its knees.
I really hope that we are on the rise up out of the dark days. I remember the BALPA conferences a few years ago where there were no jobs, you could come out of training and no one got jobs. Now people get jobs out of training which is great news.
Those people that were just finishing were suddenly unable to get any type of job, yeh they could fork out more money and buy an instructors rating, alot of people did, some people went home and worked their arse off to pay for the bank loans they had taken out to fund the training. So I guess alot of people who have been out of the market for 4 years or so, suddenly decide to try and get the upper hand again.
I m not polictically correct I just believe that we shouldn t be really nasty to people.

I don t know what to do about the situation, I have a few ideas but I doubt they would work and without everyone sticking together they will never work.
I m probably living in a nice and fluffy world where I hope eventually it will come back round to being some way back to before, I doubt it will.
I am in your industry, these things affect me too, I have no one to impress by what I say, but still I say them.

As the title of this was eaglejet I shall answer that.
If Eaglejet are putting substandard pilots through then they should be accountable for.
If they are taking money without proper training then they are accountable for.
If they are sending students to airlines who are letting these pilots fly substandard and risk others, then they should be stopped.
But that is only if they do that, otherwise I m not sure how you can make it illegal, which I believe is what this post is about

So I ll leave this conversation because its got me nowhere except for the knives being turned on me.

Sandshrew

16th Feb 2006, 10:45

All pilots how paid for their CPL license, can any of you rich boys and girls justify your actions? You all just want to cut the line from military and sponsored schools. You have destroyed the hold industry. :yuk:

ACP

16th Feb 2006, 15:48

Luke and hatzero,
I can understand your jealousy but you should be aware that while you are waisting your time on this topic hundreds of pilots are waiting on the list of eaglejet and it will never end because nothing is illegal.
Yes it is now a way to cut the line from pilots with more experience also looking for the same position and I did it but where is the problem? I am not the Mother Teresa! In a job search you do whatever you can to cut the line. Don't lie to you I suppose that you had the same attitude during your job prospect. Maybe you were lucky enough to find a job at the end of your IR-MCC, but when someone spend more than 2 years looking for a job it's time to wake up and do something that might improve your skills and increase the possibility to meet actual airlines requirements.
To invest in further qualifications and training is a non-easy personal decision and yes it costs money but nothing is free in that life and if you do not have sufficient funds to follow that way, sorry but it is not our problem (altough I personnaly believe that when we are motivated everything is possible)
and destroying the future of this industry for ALL airline pilots
You are completely out of the reality. Eaglejet exists since over than ten years, and the industry is now going up very fast. I don't know if you are interested in A/C orders and deliveries in the world, maybe you should read the aviation industry news (between 2 replies on this topic). Could you please explain how come we destroy the future of this industry?? Does the industry seems now destroyed since eaglejet has sent hundreds of pilots each year?? Eaglejet may have sent 50 pilots in 2005 on the 737 or A320, anyway it is well below the need of only one airline in China or India during that year. A lot of jobs will be soon available for suitable qualified guys, buying a line training at the moment is just securing the position faster. I do not talk about doing a type rating which is a must, because beeing qualified on a C152 or light twin is nice but if you want to fly a jet, it is a minimum to be qualified on the proper aircraft before sending your application to the airline. It's like if you apply for a trucker position with your car driver license..., is it logical?
your actions are taking money from the pocket of employed pilots right now
Most airlines have an union and believe me we are not taking money from the big pocket of employed pilots. If an airline decides to cut the pay of all his employees it is not because of pilots paying for their line training, it's because the management realized that they have been over paying for a long time and the best way to make profit and stay in the game (it is a business) is to cut a little bit the salaries. But don't stress they are all still well paid. We can see that most pilots complaining like you do are the old ones who are scared to loose their priviledge acquired a long time ago when beeing a pilot was only open for crack guys. If your interest in a pilot life is only money and glory you choose the wrong way. Personally I don't see any glory to be considered as a bus driver, do you?;)

jeya

14th May 2006, 14:13

Just considering to buy 300 on 737 from Eagle Jet. Any comment, experiences etc?

gordonsmall

14th May 2006, 14:36

Do a search buddy.

This has been covered in dozens of previous posts.

jeya

14th May 2006, 17:17

I did a search but practically nothing interested found. I looked for 'eagle'. Can you give me a link?
Is anybody happy with them? Are there any tricks?

Craggenmore

14th May 2006, 18:51

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=209273

Did you read this one?

jeya

15th May 2006, 19:20

YEs, I read this, it's too much about ethics, politics, law but if they fullfill promises, what are agreements etc. is still not cowvered :confused:

Eight Ball

17th May 2006, 05:25

Hi Jeya,

Know of 2 guys who went through Eagle Jet. One is now unemployed, I'll call him B, and the other one I shall call A who is still flying 734s. They both got employed by the airline they trained with after getting 300 hours. B however went to Air Pacific and didn't quite like their conditions, so he left. Still pissed off about the whole thing. Although, this guy was a bit demanding in T & Cs from what I've heard.
"A" on the other hand is a bit stable as he has a family to think about so he stayed. I think he is about to come back to Australia to fly here with X number of hrs on jets. So, to answer your question, they do keep their end of the bargain and it all comes down to you in the end.
Speaking for myself, I'd rather go through the normal hoops of an S/O if you can get it and work your way up ...FREE. I guess that's easier said than done.
By the way, I think they ( EJ) will look at you favourably if you have at least 1500 hrs TT but that's just my incling.

Good luck with whatever you decide on.

Eight Ball

A320rider

17th May 2006, 16:29

Eight Ball

17th May 2006, 23:33

noway budy, with 1500h, you do not give your money to EJetscam, but keep it for a SERIOUS company, who PAYS you when you are up.so you can buy food and have a life!!!!!!!!!

this market is a joke, stop to pay with nothing in return...pay to work is illegal in europe anyway.

I agree, if you have 1500 TT why give your money ? But on the same token, why would some people in EU pay for their type rating ?

If someone can get in as a second officer then don't pay. BUt, what if you can't, and the only way in is either to pay for the endo money and/or pay for the 300 hours as well ?

Answer: It all comes down to your situation. Sure, it hurts to pay but would you rather do this or not get your foot in the door if the opportunity was there. Some people would rather go out and swim to the ship rather than wait for the ship to come to them.
I'm sure no one in his or her right mind would pay for it if they can get it for free, but WHAT IF YOU CAN'T. Time is money. WE all have to face the fact that the aviation market is rapidly changing. 15 years ago, someone would laugh at you if they say that they would pay for the TR. But look at it now, it's so common. Don't get me wrong, I am against this but sometimes when people are forced in a corner with no other option, what else would they do ?

To Jeya, try applying as a second officer instead if you can so you won't have to pay for it. Otherwise, do what must be done.

EB