Capped Actuals Scenario (Support Crew)

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

This hasn’t happened yet, but it could, perhaps it should.

A trail back to UK from way out west. Some fast jets, a couple of Hercs, a Tristar, and a Nimrod. Minimum time on the ground as the trail crosses North America for the hop across the pond.

One of the AT/AAR aircraft goes u/s with a minor snag, easily fixable by the support crew flying with their aircraft. What used to happen:- The support crew work into the night, fix the aircraft, miss out on a decent meal but stuff a few left over flight rations down their necks. Back to the hotel, they have their 50 odd dollars, they have a few beers and a bowl of peanuts, a few hours kip, back up for an early start and everyone gets away on time. Job done. Support crew asleep down the back. Didn’t get a proper meal but are ‘compensated’ with the $30 left over in their wallets. Morale is high.

Capped Actuals Scenario

The u/s component is in the spares pack up. But the support crew have been ‘at work’ for just as long as the crew, even if they were cat napping down the back. But if they work the snag, they will not be certain of an evening meal. This is made worse by the inflexibility of Capped Actuals in that they won’t get any cash which they can spend as they wish.

Do I need to spell it out further?

A 24 Hour delay. 150 personnel having an extra night in a hotel (and more capped actual meals) and all those aircraft back home a day late, which has a serious knock on effect for our overstretched transport fleet.

All for the sake of a few dollars to spend as you wish, and to be treated like an adult.

Morale, welfare and loyalty go by the wayside.

Whoever gave the nod to Capped Actuals should hang their head in shame.

[BEagle]

"but stuff a few left over flight rations down their necks."

No - all unused in-flight rations would have been bagged up for disposal upon arrival. So, as you don't have that option, work until such time as you need to leave in time to check in, have a wash and change and make it to the restaurant....

After a minimum of 8 hour's sleep, get up, eat breakfast, check out, start working again. Delay? Yes - but that's the consequence of bone-headed beancounters!

Fine in theory. But of course it won't work. The Gingers will work just as hard, but get shafted by a frankly banal system.

[6foottanker]

Welcome to the Royal Admin Force....:sad:

[thelynxeffect]

One of the AT/AAR aircraft goes u/s with a minor snag, easily fixable by the support crew flying with their aircraft. What used to happen:- The support crew work into the night, fix the aircraft, miss out on a decent meal but stuff a few left over flight rations down their necks. Back to the hotel, they have their 50 odd dollars, they have a few beers and a bowl of peanuts, a few hours kip, back up for an early start and everyone gets away on time. Job done. Support crew asleep down the back. Didn’t get a proper meal but are ‘compensated’ with the $30 left over in their wallets. Morale is high.


it's bad news when members of a professional Airforce have to be 'compensated' with cash just to get them to work a few extra hours and miss a meal. they serve the Queen just like the rest of us. We might as well get civvies to replace you lot and leave the war fighting to the Navy and Army. Capped Actuals, you lot sound like a bunch of spoilt kids

[BEagle]

You, sir, are an utter arse.

Having seen how hard the Gingers worked stuck out on frozen, windswept ASPs around the world trying to fix the ancient Vickers FunBus when something stopped working, they have my every sympathy.

Swaying about on a cherry picker some 47 ft up in the air trying to fix a TPI sensing fault with a significant wind chill - try it some time.

[Almost_done]

it's bad news when members of a professional Airforce have to be 'compensated' with cash just to get them to work a few extra hours and miss a meal. they serve the Queen just like the rest of us. We might as well get civvies to replace you lot and leave the war fighting to the Navy and Army. Capped Actuals, you lot sound like a bunch of spoilt kids

Well Cur, when the 'perks' get taken away, and you are left with nothing, I for one will be happy to listen to your viewpoint then.





Oh fix your own cab if you are so high and mighty.

[day1-week1]

Sir peters...
You can take the nimrod out of your scenario for a start as we don't even get to f*!king go anymore! Well that will be until some poor sod freezes/drowns on a trail because the Nimrod is still back at ISK when it could have been on scene before he landed in the water.

[truckiebloke]

whenever there is a problem with food down route, with crews not getting enough time to eat the solution is simple - DELAY!

And before any do-gooders get involved, im not talking life threatening ops here, but the route stuff that isnt life and death.

Crews are entitled to eat and rest properly without all of this hassle.

[Art Field]

thelynxeffect. Guessing from your not so subtle nom de plume and even more from your attitude that you consider yourself from the superior end of Her Majesties boat people, is it no longer true that the whole ships company automatically receives local allowances as soon as you are within chopper range of the nearest land, to spend as they wish?. Even if this is no longer the case let us just say that the Royal Air Force tries to support its highly skilled and intensely loyal Gingerbeers as well as the system allows. The pressure on the front line is great and the "just a few extra hours" can go on day after day as it surely does for the other services. The mark of a good leader is to appreciate and fight for those that sustain that pressure, do you not agree?.

[thelynxeffect]

You, sir, are an utter arse.
Having seen how hard the Gingers worked stuck out on frozen, windswept ASPs around the world trying to fix the ancient Vickers FunBus when something stopped working, they have my every sympathy.
Swaying about on a cherry picker some 47 ft up in the air trying to fix a TPI sensing fault with a significant wind chill - try it some time.

of all the replys I decided this one most deserved an answer.

do you think the infantry lads are having it easy when they spend weeks in a fox hole, I don't see many bootnecks yomping across dartmoor in the pissing rain without a care in the world because they get an extra 50quid cos the missed a meal, how much cash do they get extra? nothing, because it's their job.

The replys posted try to suggest that I don't appreicate the ground crews, you couldn't be further from the truth, I was a soldier before I started flying (9 years of foxholes) so I know how the other half live. I just also know that people get paid for their job, any unpleasantness is taken care for by the X factor. If you don't think you get paid enough for the job you do even with X factor then do what every civvie in the world would do and get a better paid job.

Actuals is NOT compensation for hard work, If it was then the Forces would run out of money by the second of the month!

:ugh:

[engineer(retard)]

TLE

I think that you missed the point. The problem was "they will not be certain of an evening meal" and it appears the the new system may prevent that. In your life as a grunt was you fed in your foxhole or pay for it out of your x factor? Does the galley in your boat keep shop hours, or can you still get fed if you are flying after 21 o clock bells?

regards

retard

[Art Field]

thelynxeffect. My apologies for misidentifying your background. I must point out that RAF groundcrew are not [with the greatest of respect to your former life] Squadies, they are skilled technicians and if we do not do our best to retain them all too many will leave at the first available opportunity. The apparent lack of flexibility of this allowance system is just adding more straw to the camels burden and increasing the likelyhood of them hoofing it.

[glum]

If you are the sort who WANTS to live in a foxhole and get shot at, fine. I was born with a brain and serve my country by using it to fix aeroplanes. I'd be a crap soldier!

However, I do draw the line at working 30 hours straight without recourse to a decent meal or a bit extra money to buy one at the next opportunity. The fact that they take back the allowance if you haven't been able to eat stinks!

If there was a genuine reason for it, and the morons at the top were also penalised, then fair enough. But since Prescott has lost all his responsibilities yet keeps the pay and trappings, tell me why I should work my balls off for nothing?

"It's your job".

Yeah, and the job I joined had many perks attached. They have slowly eroded those, but for me there's a pension to collect in a few years time - I'm sticking round for that!

If the 'squaddies' want to work till they drop without complaint, then good for them - that's the kind of muppet the Army wants. Aircraft trades demand slightly more intellect, and that brings with it a brain and not blind devotion to duty.

[Safety_Helmut]

If you don't think you get paid enough for the job you do even with X factor then do what every civvie in the world would do and get a better paid job.
TLE, you're not southside are you ? Suggest you stick to what you know about, because it seems like you know sweet FA about the RAF. It isn't about a few quid here or there, the kind of scenario quoted is not uncommon. We accept it though, what we lose one night/week/month whatever, you make up next time, swings and roundabouts, and I don't just mean cash. That has now been taken away. It's not just the odd meal missed, everything is being eroded, until in the end you ask yourself, why is it worth staying ? I am one of those who has decided to go.

S_H

[Logistics Loader]

As an ex mover i have done several trips where i have had to "work" alongside the engineers who did the Af/Bf's when the crew bogged off to the hotel...........we didnt alway have the luxury of getting a decent square meal due to resturant opening times etc...

Rate 1's and actuals were always used to compensate for the missing component of being away. I dont believe the X factor allows for this..!!!!

As an uneducated grunt would you be happy to fly in an aircraft serviced and loaded by guys who were cold/wet/tired/hungry/peeved off !!!!!

All is well for 20mins then the crew report a fire or whatever and you alongside several others are lost in the resulting aftermath...

Cause ??? Tiredness by crews who missed a minor fault that escalated into something bigger...!!!!

As im now a civvy, im under the WTD and after 6hrs of duty im required to take a mandatory 30min rest period..!!!!

Maybe the forces should bring in the same legislation to ensure safety !!!!

[Big Bear]

How about...

a mixture of around a dozen tri-service and multi-national spies undertake a week long mission gathering data from our garlic loving neighbours.

Imagine the fun each day exlaining to a French waiter that you want 12 reciepts for your meal!!!!!

Believe me it is just not funny - obviously capped actuals is a scheme dreamed up by some out of touch senior officer who has a bag carrier to collect all of his reciepts for him.

I'm not complaining about the amount of actuals that we had, just the fact that I am now out of pocket by several hundred pounds awaiting the adminners to agree that some badly scrawled pieces of paper (and in one case a napkin) are valid reciepts. Some of us do not yet have access to JPA but still have to manually use the system through some now rather overworked scribblies. Life use to be so much simpler when.......

Rant over

[thelynxeffect]

However, I do draw the line at working 30 hours straight without recourse to a decent meal or a bit extra money to buy one at the next opportunity. The fact that they take back the allowance if you haven't been able to eat stinks!


Right, Okay, most of you make a good point and I must stress that I agree that a tired, hungry tech is more likley to make mistakes just like the rest of us however what I can't understand is that how you can expect to get given money for food if you didn't eat(buy) any. If you were not able to get some because of your location or the time of night etc I too would be well pissed off but there is sweet FA any amount of money could do about it.

The fact that they take back allowances if you don't use it makes perfect sense to me, to make a claim in the Army I would have to fill in a AB1771 and wait for the payout, normally three weeks or so. My point is that I could have claimed loads but unless I had actually bought some food and eaten it at the time I would have still been Hungry.

I'm not here to start an argument but loads of cash gets wasted in the Forces and the guys at the sharp end feel it worst.

My opinions are based(tainted) on a time when a RAF herc landed at our airfield with tech problems and instead of staying in the messes on camp (which did have rooms available) jumped in a taxi and stayed in a hotel some 15 miles away. That is a huge waste of money.

I also take minor offence of those who group all soldiers into the uneducated, thick as mince camp, you would be very suprised if you gave them a chance. They may not be the best educated in the forces but most could learn a thing or two from them about dedication, hardwork and loyalty.

Thank you

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

My opinions are based(tainted) on a time when a RAF herc landed at our airfield with tech problems and instead of staying in the messes on camp (which did have rooms available) jumped in a taxi and stayed in a hotel some 15 miles away. That is a huge waste of money.


TLE;

There is a phrase on the Transop that says (usually) 'crews authorised co-location at non-RAF bases'...which means basically that they did nothing wrong.

Also, if JRs are on the crew (SVC etc) then landing at a non-RAF mil base can cause all sorts of transit accom problems at the anti-social hours we sometimes fly. And if you are night flying, then our orders state 'undisturbed rest'!!!

Select neck to 'wind-in'!!:ugh:

More LAter;
'J' Bloke:cool:

[DaveyBoy]

Just some statistics from 2004-2005 leave period, as published in the 2006 AFPRB report, that readers might want to consider before making comparisons about hard work between the services:

Percentage of Annual Leave taken:

RN: 94%
Army: 87%
RAF: 74%


Number of personnel losing no days of Annual Leave:

RN: 93%
Army: 66%
RAF: 84%


Average number of days of Annual Leave carried forward:

RN: 1.5
Army: 2.0
RAF: 9.3


Of course, all services will have blunties working 9-5 on week days only (3pm on Fridays), using all their Annual Leave and getting a few weeks of AT besides, that will improve the numbers. Most aircrew and engineers on this forum will have had less than the averages above!

Dave

[senga]

"Most aircrew and engineers on this forum will have had less than the averages above!"
hmmmmm, a slight understatement I think! ;)
I don't know of anyone one my Sqn who has been able to take anywhere near that amount. Almost all carry forward the usual 15 days and most lose a few on top of that as well.
:ugh:

[thelynxeffect]

TLE;
There is a phrase on the Transop that says (usually) 'crews authorised co-location at non-RAF bases'...which means basically that they did nothing wrong.
Also, if JRs are on the crew (SVC etc) then landing at a non-RAF mil base can cause all sorts of transit accom problems at the anti-social hours we sometimes fly. And if you are night flying, then our orders state 'undisturbed rest'!!!
Select neck to 'wind-in'!!:ugh:
More LAter;
'J' Bloke:cool:


An Army Lynx might well be crewed with an NCO in command, an officier Pilot and a JR doorgunner/slider so we have the same issues, we just stay in the messes/transit accom? why should I 'wind-in' (sic) my neck?

[ratty1]

My opinions are based(tainted) on a time when a RAF herc landed at our airfield with tech problems and instead of staying in the messes on camp (which did have rooms available) jumped in a taxi and stayed in a hotel some 15 miles away. That is a huge waste of money.

As you said in a previous post of yours "My first thought was that you were a pratt, maybe I'm wrong but I doubt it". You are right about the 15 miles. I am sure there must have been a much more expensive hotel closer.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

An Army Lynx might well be crewed with an NCO in command, an officier Pilot and a JR doorgunner/slider so we have the same issues, we just stay in the messes/transit accom? why should I 'wind-in' (sic) my neck?

TLE;
Because you don't know our rules...you do brown things..we do blue!!!
Previous requested selection ...Correct!!!

More LAter'
'J' Bloke:cool:

All speeling mistakes..I blame on Strongbow!!!:ok:

[glum]

I wasn't lumping the Army together, I've worked withy many and they have my respect. Even more goes to the brave nutters who go out with guns and get shot at - like I said, I couldn't do it.

I think TLE you're missing the point. As things were, we worked stupid long hours and went without decent food or rest because there was a little financial incentive. Now that's gone, why shouldn't we work to 'rule' and ensure we get away for food and rest like the others in the crew or the pax?

Do the Army guys REGULARLY go without food? Or are the patrols / guards / whatever organised to coincide with meals etc? I certainly know ours are when working at a fixed base (be it home or forward).