Capped Actuals - What are your experiences?

[mbga9pgf]

Having already heard horror stories around the FW world about Capped actuals, what peculiarities have been noted, and does anyone else think that an extra 4 hours admin burden in the cruise is condusive to a serious flight safety hazard? On top of this, what is the expected admin burden, financially expected (in terms of bluntie overtime)? Surely this money could be better spent!!!! :mad: :mad:

[SIT head]

Capped actuals have one big downside from anyone's perspective - and that is the amount of time it takes to keep a track of things on a daily basis. The looks of disdain from the waiters/waitresses when we ask for separate bills is enough to make you realise you are now a second-class citizen. I'm about half-way through a month long det to the States and fortunately, our resident computer geek (he's an 'early adapter' apparently) has knocked up an Excel spread sheet to keep track of the spending. That's helping no-end and I'd recommend doing something similar for anyone about to be detached. I would guess there is at least one full day's JPA admin for everyone when we get back just to put the claim in - and that would be if we could log in and everything went smoothly! This needs to be considered when personnel return from a Det, they need the time to resolve the admin burden before they can properly become productive in their normal roles. In short, it's the biggest faff I have ever had to deal with over the many years I've been in the Service.
Another thing that really bugs about capped actuals, is that the daily amount cannot be flexed throughout any period of, say, a week. It's a daily allowance, so that's yer lot! So, if you're working/flying hours are outside the norm, then we've been finding that those days show an underspend on the cap. I suppose we shouldn't complain about that, because like it or not, that is what it is supposed to do. However, I would be prepared bet my next month's JPA issued Flying Pay (hmmm, safe bet then) that the Treasury will see an underspend across the board when they audit such Dets and thereby reduce the capped level. Now that sucks.
Tipping is proving to be a bit of nightmare - it is the norm in the US to tip between 15 -18 % of the total biil, that is how the waiting staff make their money. We are only allowed to tip 10% and that comes out of the capped actual. Rather than upset anyone, we're just coughing up out of our own pockets. Thing is, 10% might be okay in a fish & chip shop in Marbella, but it isn't the same globally! I believe these amounts should be set after consultation with respective Embassy staffs and capped amounts adjusted accordingly.
For what it's worth, the scribes at my home base in Lincs are the dog's whatsits and I truly dread to think where we would be without them to 'ease the JPA & Allowances transition'. If I'm audited, when I get back - and I think I will be because of the 'policy violations' of buying hire car petrol on my own credit card (no GPC as of yet) - I'm hoping the Excel Spread Sheet will make that process as easy as possible for me and the allowances team.
Regards
SIT Head

[6foottanker]

I'd agree, the meals are a nightmare, the admin burden is much greater than before, and the tipping situation leaves us all out of pocket, especially when you've had enough of the bill faff when it comes to paying, and you go for the 'oh, it's just easier to round it up to the nearest £10 and split it'.

The system is clearly designed for the single MOD person who has to nip down to a meeting in London, stay over night in a hotel, and come back. Definitely not for a crew of 15 going down route for a week with 3 different currencies, working at all hours of the night.

Whilst I appreciate a lot of the snags are because we are new to the system (Bloggs has to be told for the third time how to fill in his daily rate sheet and that yes, you can have a paper, yes you can carry your 3 minutes call over till tomorrow, and where are your bl@@dy receipts?), I physically cannot fill in all the paperwork, collect all the monies owed and balance the books in a 4 hour sector whilst still fulfilling my cockpit responsibilities safely if at all.
And after a 16 hr crew duty day, my guys will not hang on for 2 hours on the ground to square it away either. :confused: There MUST be a better way......oh I know one, the old system! :{ :{

[D-IFF_ident]

I wouldn't condone it myself. But I've heard rumours of various establishments 'around the bazaars' that are willing to provide 'hand written' receipts upon request...

[ranger703]

Hmmmm,great idea if you fancy being CM'd.I wholeheartedly recommend and I speak from personal experience,that you under no circumstances go down that route.I would rather be out of pocket than repeat that experience!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

We have been told that if it cost less than a fiver you can self certificate an do not need reciepts. So a bit more paperwork but just claiming for single purchases throughout the day of nothing more than 5 quid in value..............no brainer really guys.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Fill 2 fool]

Totally with 6 footer on this one. An absolute nightmare trying to keep abreast of things when away for more than a nightstop. Yes it means that you can all go out for a lovely meal, which can if I'm not mistaken include half a bottle of wine/2 beers-obviously as long as you are outwith the GASO approved limits (200' from aircraft isn't it??), but have heard of a large crew who opted for separate bills and it took 1.5 hours to sort out due to- a language & "I didn't have the chips" etc.- faff at the end of it. It is fine for a small 2-4 person set up which is probably the way that our civilian masters researched it as, but multiply to a crew of 15-18 then it becomes an embarrassing pain in the backside. And if its across in the "land of the free" then your 10% allowance for tipping is insufficient as the standard, unless I'm mistaken , is 15%.
Also, I've been on a crew who had to sort it all out on landing on the way back from a multi-stop trip because the sectors were too short to get the monies all in to the co-pilot. Our civilian counterparts must be laughing their socks off at us.
Bunch of A**E

[FFP]

I guess that in some respects the "I didn't have chips" episodes shouldn't happen, as you have X dollars to spend, and if you don't spend X, then you lose it. As long as the bill doesn't come to more than X that is . . . .!!

System is unworkable for down route crews. Fleets that still have Co's working it are suffering cos of it.

It sucks.

[Hoop Stress]

I think i'm right in saying that if you ask your waitress to put 15% of the total charge on the bill as a service charge, it cannot be deducted from your actual rate... The MoD picks up the tab for service, you get your full meal entitlement and the waitress gets her tip. The 10% fiasco only comes into play if service is not included on the bill and you have to cough-up "manually".

Also, we have had had a local agreement that only one person in the group need pay the bill (with a GPC card for instance). Everyone else effectively eats "free" within their allowance, and the bill payer only has to submit the names of the other non-paying diners with the bill. The free-eaters will be audited to ensure they have not claimed for the same meal.

Lots more work for us, but I feel its even more work for the few HR/Adminers that are left to audit the system.

[Fill 2 fool]

True about the "chips" saga FFP, but say for example Capt A spends his lunchtime in his pit while co pilot B goes out for a bijoux strollette and upons a nice little bistro which sells a myriad of tempting delicacies all over the self certification bracket. He later joins Capt A who fancies the Chateaubriand for 2 for 1. Co pilot B has only X dollars (minus the bistro cake-out) to spend whereas Capt A has his full allowance. Unless they're willing to share the bill ie total divided by no of crew etc, in which case co pilot B better have enough to cover the split or if not he'll be out of pocket - provided JPA have remembered to pay his flying pay this month also.....................

You're right though, it sucks!!

[FFP]

Like it Fill to Fool !! Very true.

And seeing as I STILL have not been paid flying pay this month . .. .;)

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Top quality bleating folks................you don't deserve to use an Ascot callsign you bunch of old women:p

"It's a daily allowance, so that's yer lot! So, if you're working/flying hours are outside the norm, then we've been finding that those days show an underspend on the cap"

So lets get this right you are in the home of 24hr EVERYTHING and you can't manage to spend your meagre capped actual........good grief:confused:

"the "I didn't have chips" episodes shouldn't happen"

It's happened for years, I have lost count of the occasions when some chisseler has had a steak the size of Bournmouth with a bottle some epensive plonk while the rest of us have played the game:E

The extra paperwork is a pain but after a couple of months/route we will all be used to it's vagries andthe extra work for the imprest holder seems to be a bit of a red herring. I give you money, you, if you are not clever enough to spend it all, may give me some back. Even I can do sums of that magnitude. I give you paerwork for YOU to fill out, for YOU to do your sums on, and for YOU to clip YOUR reciepts to. If YOUR sums are wrong etc it's YOU at audit time who needs to explain, NOT ME.

It's a piece of cake guys:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[mbga9pgf]

Top quality bleating folks................you don't deserve to use an Ascot callsign you bunch of old women:p
"It's a daily allowance, so that's yer lot! So, if you're working/flying hours are outside the norm, then we've been finding that those days show an underspend on the cap"
So lets get this right you are in the home of 24hr EVERYTHING and you can't manage to spend your meagre capped actual........good grief:confused:
"the "I didn't have chips" episodes shouldn't happen"
It's happened for years, I have lost count of the occasions when some chisseler has had a steak the size of Bournmouth with a bottle some epensive plonk while the rest of us have played the game:E
The extra paperwork is a pain but after a couple of months/route we will all be used to it's vagries andthe extra work for the imprest holder seems to be a bit of a red herring. I give you money, you, if you are not clever enough to spend it all, may give me some back. Even I can do sums of that magnitude. I give you paerwork for YOU to fill out, for YOU to do your sums on, and for YOU to clip YOUR reciepts to. If YOUR sums are wrong etc it's YOU at audit time who needs to explain, NOT ME.
It's a piece of cake guys:ok:
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced


Must be very difficult for you southside chaps to fill in your capped actuals sheets whilst beating up the LA hold YET AGAIN!!!! :} :} :}

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"Southside Chaps"

I'll have you know there are no unpleasant aromas or caravan discussions on the six bladed beast I have the pleasure of flying on:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[SIT head]

Always Broken In Wilts
There's always one - and you appear, once more, to be it. I've typed this slowly 'cos you probably can't read very fast.
'So lets get this right you are in the home of 24hr EVERYTHING and you can't manage to spend your meagre capped actual........good grief'
Okay, let me see if I can help educate you. Have a look on Google Earth - it's a free download so you won't need to fritter away your hard earned - and have a look at the USA. It's big isn't it? Next, try to find Texas, that's the big bit at the bottom of the States and in the middle - known as the Lonestar State. That's pretty big too. Now, have a look around Texas - or some of the other States, travel is supposed to broaden the mind and you'll find some densely populated places - (look for houses and roads and stuff, that's the give-away) and some very sparsely populated areas (look for no houses and roads and stuff - another give-away). Fact is, durrrr, that not everywhere in the USA has a 24hr lifestyle. Granted, some places and cities are 24-7, but not where we currently are. Everywhere shuts at 2200 - (that's 10pm to you) which means, getting back to the thread, the capped actuals remove the flexibility of carrying over one's allowances which will, in my humble opinion, lead to a subsequent overall reduction of the capped rates in due course.
As for an ASCOT callsign - never used one - I'm afraid our work is way too secret for something like that. I'd like to tell you about it, but - well, you wouldn't have the clearances.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

One of the joys of not doing so well at school appears to be having the ability to find an open source of libation when ever needed............apart from the sand pit of course:E

Just a thought though, I am typing slowly cos I am obviously thick, just how when everywhere shuts at 10pm where you are would the old system have been any more benifit to you in obtaining food and drink:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[ratty1]

As for an ASCOT callsign - never used one That is probably because you are not important enough to have an ASCOT callsign.

[SIT head]

E
Just a thought though, I am typing slowly cos I am obviously thick, just how when everywhere shuts at 10pm where you are would the old system have been any more benifit to you in obtaining food and drink:p
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
You're missing point chap, so just to reitterate...
"which means, getting back to the thread, the capped actuals remove the flexibility of carrying over one's allowances which will, in my humble opinion, lead to a subsequent overall reduction of the capped rates in due course"
Regards SH

[ratty1]

Ever heard of room service. Do they have such a thing in the Hotels in Texas?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

There are two very distinct points here SH and you are really missing one of them, so let ME reitterate

"which means, getting back to the thread, the capped actuals remove the flexibility of carrying over one's allowances which will, in my humble opinion, lead to a subsequent overall reduction of the capped rates in due course" BOLLEAUX

If those in reciept of capped actuals are too stupid or unimaginative to plan a daily expenditure to fully utilise the capped actual allowance then I get your point fully but as I, typing slowly again as I am obviously thick, do not fall into that bracket I disregard your view.

You may be able to hit the bullseye with a 1000lb'r dude but try thinking outside the bubble man, it's what Ascot crews have been doing for years:ok: Hope to see you down route some time to buy you a beer and discuss.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[SIT head]

Ratty - what a great idea - wish I'd thought of that! But alas, no room service here I'm afraid. You see, we're a bit out in the sticks.... Think Moortreck with electricity and you'll get the picture.

ABIW - one of the best things that ever came out of the States is that one word that we never used to use in this way.... Whatever!

I think we'll have to agree to differ on this one.

Regards

SH

[Gwladys]

Children, children - really hoped that my first post could have been about something more exciting than actuals but there you go.
My thoughts - does anyone really think that this new system will save the Air Force money? Thought not, because as hinted by ABIW, people will simply be 'imaginative' in spending their full daily rate. I also agree that, in time, we will get more used to the system. What I cannot even come close to agreeing on is that this is as user-friendly as the daily rate system. Give me money, I spend it. If that means I have 10 pints and a kebab then so be it - my choice. Damn site less paperwork though, and no keeping receipts for the next millenium.
Last point (for now!) - I'm not hugely keen on being accused of fraud, so if there's something that I'm not 100% sure I can claim for,and it's a small amount, I'll just pay for it out of my own pocket as I suspect a lot of people will. Net result is Air Force not saving money and me spending my own - great system lads...........
p.s. 1 post, 1 whinge - good start me thinks.

[day1-week1]

We are just about to go on det on this new goat f*!k of a system and were told that decision as to whether we can now claim for a half bottle of plonk/berr etc was pending. Has anyone got an update? I think there was something about it earlier in the thread.

[6foottanker]

Well, day 1, I'm still working on 1/2 bottle of wine or 2 beers with meal, don't know whether this applies to just dindins if you've got a down day or not. But if it's good enough for the civil service......

Just beware of the time printed on your receipt if you order your wine within the no go time period!
I've now got 2 outstanding imprests because I'm too busy to finish the paperwork, and now the guys have spread to the 4 winds, I've got no chance. I love this system, no really I do.

Now give me my damned flying pay, and let me go to the airlines, I've had enough:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[SirToppamHat]

The system is clearly designed for the single MOD person who has to nip down to a meeting in London, stay over night in a hotel, and come back.
Nearly me, so hows this:

Being picked up at 0545L tomorrow for a meeting at MoD at 1000L

Car to train stn. 0645 train to London. Tube to MoD.

I would quite like breakfast at some point. Am I allowed to claim for a meal on the train? If so, what's the limit?

I have asked my HR specialist, but the poor individual has not come from PSF (so doesn't really know the old rules) and has been spending every spare moment attempting to input leave passes to the JPA as she's been the only one with access for most of the time since JPA was dumped on us.

Anyone help? Sometime in the next hour would be good as it's going to be hard enough as it is to get through the meeting so I need some sleep beforehand!

JPA Says "No".

STH

[Kev Nurse]

Earlier this year I experienced the new Actual system for the 1st time overseas. Like most people my previous encounters were always when the crew ate out as a single party and the imprest holder received a single, although huge, bill for the table. Simple. Not very popular, but it was at least a straightforward piece of business between us and the restaurant staff.

I have to say it, and I don't care who reads this, but the RAF is now causing me and my colleagues great personal embarassment when a small group of us, say 4, have to ask for individual itemised receipts when dining in decent restaurants. Its just not acceptable behaviour. "Why do you want this?" is the usual quizzical enquiry from the bemused waiter. Despite an overwhelmimg desire to name and shame my employer, I simply shrug my shoulders and meekly explain that my ridiculous boss needs it for his records. Ughh.

It has been suggested that a single itemised bill for all diners can be paid and photocopied (where and when?) and then highlighted to show what the claimant's share was, but the practicalities of this system are difficult to overcome. The folllowing day at work who can remember exactly who ate what?

I'm disappointed that I'm being made to feel embarrassed in public when complying with RAF policy. I wear my uniform with pride in public, but this particular policy is just not acceptable and needs reviewing.

[Where R We?]

Nearly me, so hows this:
Being picked up at 0545L tomorrow for a meeting at MoD at 1000L
Car to train stn. 0645 train to London. Tube to MoD.
I would quite like breakfast at some point. Am I allowed to claim for a meal on the train? If so, what's the limit?
STH
I have claimed for a motorway services meal from LGW to Wiltshire on the way back from a meeting in France and they paid for it. I think you have fair justification to pay for a meal on the train at that time in the morning, especially if the train runs late and you have no other chance to eat brekkie.

Not that I am HR of course, but if you can honestly say why, I think you would be hard done by if they said no.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Day1,

Here in Wilts we have been told no alcohol, correction no alcohol featuring on a reciept, until clarification from the head counters of beans:uhoh:

Nursey,

Embarrased to ask a waitress for an individual bill...............I really thought I had heard it all but this takes the biscuit,were all happy to try and pull the last rhinocrocodillapig in town but asking a waitress for a sepearate check is somehow beneath us, well that's almost as pityful as saying every food and drink outlet in Texas is shut 24 hours a day..........:p

6footer,

Imprest holder gives folks money, ROPE form and envelope. Imprest holder tells folks what daily sub rate is. Should folk be daft or unimginative enough not to spend all of daily sub rate they give imprest holder back money and he writes amount taken on rate sheet.............just like it always was.

Folks spend sub rate or whatever, fill in ROPE form places reciept where neccesary in envelope, seals envelope and give back to imprest holder.

Imprest holder returns imprest paperwork and ROPE forms for balancing as ever was and sealed envelopes of recipts for potential audit..............so please explain why you have two imprests outstanding cos as far as I can see **** all has changed from how it used to be.......... apart from now handing in sealed envelopes of reciepts..................I am having a real problem seeing any difficulty here folks and as SH pointed out I am a feckwit:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Brain Potter]

ABIW - "If those in reciept of capped actuals are too stupid or unimaginative to plan a daily expenditure to fully utilise the capped actual allowance..."

Agreed, but however try this one. Nightstopped in Canada last week. Wheels the following day were before the hotel started doing breakfast (inc roomservice) so we had to find a really expensive restaurant for dinner and try our damendest to spend the whole aggregated daily rate. Didn't quite manage it but made a fine effort. The following day the trip was delayed - but if the plan the night before had worked properly we now would have had no money left for breakfast.

Dilemma - do you keep a suitable amount back for breakfast "just in case"? If so you risk losing it if there is no delay and (worse) the underspend will let them justify cutting the capped rate as it is not always spent.

Furthermore, still not had words on when the next day starts and the pot renews itself. Is it 24 hours after landing? Or is it 29 hours (ie including the new 5 hours on the ground)?

The admin burden for complicated multi-currency trips is huge, particularly trails, where you might also have to look after some FJ mates for a night or 2. Do the paperwork on the inbound leg they say - but what about flying the aircraft? Maybe we should ring them up and ask them to postion report, gather weather, listen to ATC, maintain a radio flight log etc whilst they are sitting behind their desks devising the next fiasco.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Brain,

See your dilemma re eating your body weight then being delayed, must be a Nimrod crew as you almost eat you whole days allowance on dinner but still had room for breakfast.............in flight rats to follow.........gannets.......... however I will leave it up to your conscience as to how best manage in future your "daily" sub rate:ok:

As regards timings we have been advised it is 29 hours between daily issues but again we wait on clarification.

Top tip, on the J we realised at the outset that the Co was not the best placed person to run the imprest, hence the ALM has always run it. If you have flight safety/training issues as we did then address them and get someone with more time available to them to manage your FSI's.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[PlasticCabDriver]

So what happens if the restaurant simply says "No, we are too busy" to individual bills, or you are abroad and you simply cannot get the Greek/Uzbeki/Welsh waiter to understand what you mean by "individual itemised bills, with only half a bottle of wine charged on each, with a separate bill for any wine left over etc etc"? If you are in a restaurant, and it passes midnight, can you use 2 days allowance on one meal?

At some point common sense has to take over? Doesn't it?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"So what happens if the restaurant simply says "No, we are too busy" to individual bills, or you are abroad and you simply cannot get the Greek/Uzbeki/Welsh waiter to understand what you mean by "individual itemised bills, with only half a bottle of wine charged on each, with a separate bill for any wine left over etc etc"? If you are in a restaurant, and it passes midnight, can you use 2 days allowance on one meal?"

How on earth were you ever selected for, let alone allowed to pass an aircrew course , there were more taxing time/distance problems than this at Biggen Hill for fecks sake............


In order to stem the potential blood loss as I prepare to bang my head against the wall at some of the bolleaux so far posted on here............I am off to bed:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" capped actual paid for alcohol induced

[nigegilb]

always, the answer is to split the thread ascoteers on one, fast jet boys/girls on the other, then see how much money each thread spends. simple really.

On the other hand, I am thinking hard now, if RAF train ALM to fly point jet, problem go away. yes?

[SIT head]

ABIW.
You really do seem to have got it sussed. Perhaps you could come along on some Dets that don't quite fit the ASCOT regulation weight and size of doing business and show us all the error of our ways. It might be quite a lonely Det for you though, but I'd gladly take the offer of that beer if you were running the dosh. I couldn't reciprocate though (buy you one back, that is), cos all the places I go to are shut. :ok:
By the way, I don't remember calling you a 'feckwit' as you said in an earlier post. Don't be so hard on yourself, I'm sure that not all slow readers are 'feckwits', they probably just need a bit of help here and there. But if the cap fits...
Regards
SH

[vascodegama]

Last time I looked there were 24 hrs in a day so I cant see why we wait 29 for a replenishment of dosh. In Oxon the half bottle rule is still in but it would n't be the first time the stations do things differently-REMEMBER THE 75% RULE? Next time breakfast isn't available why not ask the Captain to request a revitin to allow it -that should stir things up.

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Next time breakfast isn't available why not ask the Captain to request a revitin to allow it -that should stir things up.

Isn't it mandatory to eat before flying?

[Brain Potter]

It used to be mandatory to fly before eating :ok:

[dallas]

vasco

I doubt you'll get a revitin if you carry either in-flight or the standard C130 pallet of food. While I agree that capped actuals are a sh!te way to operate, ascoteers rarely waste away due to shortage of food do they?

I happened to bump into a USAF C-141 crew some time ago and they were self-catering - and by that I mean they brought sandwiches and a flask from home!

Some w*nker somewhere, deep in blunt land, has figured the fiscal saving from capped actuals, probably including people not claiming everything they're entitled to, is worth the expense of individuals time completing the paperwork and staff wages to administer. In the mean time your taxes are paying minister's mortgages. It will hardly affect me, yet epitomises why I'm counting the days until I get out; the Service will, of course, do nothing until they wonder where everyone has gone.

[Vortex_Generator]

My experience is going on det as the only Brit, with another air force, to a third country where English was not widely spoken. Dining out tended to be in largeish groups of 10-20 and was generally of the Mediterranean style, i.e. order a large selection of food and everyone gets stuck in. My colleagues were on their equivalent of OSA, so had no constraints regarding alcohol. Try explaining to the (limited English speaking) waiter that you would like a separate bill for one seventeenth of the food consumed, plus 2 beers. There were also a couple of occasions where my colleagues would put on a det barbeque, with the usual X amount for all you can eat and drink. I can hardly ask for a receipt for that, so how do I claim. Having spent around 3 hours doing the post det admin just to get what I am entitled to, and having the prospect of someone checking over it and pointing an accusatory finger if I have made a mistake somewhere, I will be very reluctant to undertake any further such detachments.

[Acey ducey]

It used to be mandatory to fly before eating :ok:

"Eat till you are tired, sleep till you are hungry!!"

Not being of the light blue variety, why all the hassle with one person being responsible for the money. Surley it's an individual entitlement and should be an individual responsibility. Maybe they don't have cash machines where you guys go.

On a slightly different note, I spend a lot of time in Vegas working woth the Yanks, do you think I could "use my imagination" and claim actuals for my exploits on the blackjack tables?

[truckiebloke]

I am so embarrassed to be a member of the forces travelling around the world. This whole system is amazingly over complicated as the civvies simply issue a daily rate. How hard is that?

I know the reasons for this new system are to save money but all it is doing is eating into crew rest time and time when home.

I might not have such a problem with it if i didn't see every politician claiming over 100,000 in expenses a year. Do they have these problems? i think not.

[Testingtheseatlimit]

I understand the simplicity of rates and how good a deal that was in terms of organising your own existence on longer Dets. However, I also understand the reasons (Taxman driven) why we had to move to actuals. That makes perfect sense! However (again), CAPPED ACTUALS, ACCOUNTED FOR ON A DAILY BASIS, are just pure madness. Not only does it not work in terms of cost (London, Texas et al, try and find a decent, healthy meal 'in budget'!)), but the apparent effect it is having on morale must be percieved as counter-productive. Just do what all other organisations do and treat people like adults. It would soon be obvious who the piss-takers were and quite easy to deal with them. People who see this as an improved way of doing business either do not get out much or are just wind-up merchants. As said earlier, the civvies must be laughing their cotton socks off.

[Brown Job]

It is very interesting to see that you lite blue chaps are having all the same problems as us that normally inhabit the arrse. In our neck of the woods we cannot even decide what the Day in Day Subsistence means. Is it Monday, Tuesday etc etc or is it a 24hr period begining when you leave your cantoonment?

As for actuals some people really know how to use the system as a non rupert brown job has just been paid £20.45 for taking luncheon consisting of; 6 Oysters, a King Prawn and Scallop Grill and a cup of coffee! So the next time you are out for over 5 hours you should fly over to the Loch Fynne Oyster Bar.

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

Is there a minimum to what you can claim? I guess you could claim the £1.04 that a duty meal costs in the Mess when visiting another base on duty (you do get a receipt as well). I can't see why not as you are on detached duty from your home station but does the subsidised bit make a difference? Logging on permitting it doesn't take too long to raise a single line expense claim and would help claw back some of the money lost when away from unit. It would also send a message that two can play at that game. Only a thought...

[philrigger]

I am sure that I read somewhere fairly recently that MPs can claim up to £250 a day without showing a receipt !!!!!! That is fair and just then - NOT.
Prescott and his mates can of course can be trusted. But no one else ??????
MPs I think claim up to 60p per mile for using their cars.
Mad, Im flipping hovering as I write.

'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[hoodie]

MP's allowances (http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/M05.pdf). You'll weep.

As for the Inland Robbery, and the supposed tax reasons for going onto actuals - I have it on good authority that HMRC Civil Servants claim rates!

[vascodegama]

As I said in the parallel thread I do not see what the oxygen theives in the treasury have got to do with any of this. The worlds airlines have continued with rates without a hitch. Before anyone points out that their allowances are taxable that is wrong as well . The food element is tax free. The worst bit as many have said is the capped bit. The civil servants are not capped and do not need a receipt for IE (used to be PIE) but I forget they have a union.

[Testingtheseatlimit2]

New Overseas (US) rates out from MOD:

NS in US Cities = $177
DS in US Cities = $69


Now, if B'fast is included in NS (Which I assume is Hotel B+B) then we are looking at a far more reasonable situation. i.e. $69 for Lunch and/or dinner + IE. Is not clear though! I maintain, that you would be hard pushed to spend that ($69) everyday but at least you can go for a 'nice' meal ocassionally. Furthermore, alcohol is allowed on DS (Formal MOD Policy) (at local commander's discretion). Could common sense actually be prevailing at last. Could we have turned a corner and are actually going to be treated as adults? ....... I hope so! Certainly looks slightly more promising. Whoever is responsible at Command, I respectively request ...... please leave it at that and do not put a local STC rule on the existing MOD policy! - it may just be the ticket to make a saving on some morale issues! Just take a look at this thread! :ok:

Regards

Testing

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

The $69 sounds like the $52 DS that was stated initially plus the IE (PIE as was) at £10 (roughly $17). Unless they have relaxed the IE rules and allow you to claim regardless (like the civvies) of the 3 specific item criteria in the JSP, it sounds as if it is a theoretical max.

[Uncle Ginsters]

It seems to me that the only pro of the new system is that we now work on a daily rate, as opposed to a meal rate dependant on exact duty times. At least this should cut out the ridiculous process of working out landing/TO times in order to make the Lunch rate.

The system sucks though. All that happens is that everyone spends all of their cash unecessarily now because of the feeling of being 'done out' of our rates and restauranteurs the world-wide will be putting signs up saying "No large parties/itemised bills" due to the massive faff post-dining.

I can only imagine what will happen the first time an AT asset diverts with a full pax load in the middle of deepest Africa?!? I'm sure the top brass are covered for their meetings though - so it must work, right??:\

Uncle G :ok:

[snakepit]

MP's allowances (http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/M05.pdf). You'll weep.

As for the Inland Robbery, and the supposed tax reasons for going onto actuals - I have it on good authority that HMRC Civil Servants claim rates!

Your not wrong. MPs get as much for their bycicle rate as we do for motor milage allowance. No wonder Cameron likes riding everywhere.

[Where R We?]

No wonder Cameron likes riding everywhere.
I thought that was Prescott...

[Testingtheseatlimit]

I've checked and the $69 DOES NOT INCLUDE IE. Hurrah! Just waiting for some STC killjoy to bring in their own interpretation. The policy letter even alludes to IE as being an extra allowance. If this is all allowed to stand then things have just become acceptable (in my opinion). By the way, the figures bring us in line with FCO directives!

[vascodegama]

So some progress at last. Do we still need the receipt for IE and why are the civil servants still not capped? Do we have a reference for these figures?

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

As far as IE is concerned my understanding (from our clerk) is that it is for the 3 specified items in the JSP (laundry/call/paper) and not for anything else. However, anything under £5 does not have to be receipted, but if audited you have to attached the new form stating that you did spend it on the aforementioned items. You have to sign/date it which means if you didn't spend money on those items it is fraud. Proving it either way might be difficult, but is your pension worth it? Another stealth saving.

[Green Flash]

Here's a good one. Civil Servant (or contractor or whoever) goes on RAF course (to work some RAF equipment). Civil Servant (or etc) is not employed by RAF therefore he does not have JPA account (can you see what it is yet.....? - stay with me). So, if he was on a Civil Servant course, no problem, claim everything that moves. But he's on RAF buisness this time! Worms, Can, Opening for the use of.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

Scapegoat;

So you self-certify £1-90 for your newspaper every day.(it costs more overseas)!!
So you self-certify £4-80 for your 3 min call on PayAsYouGo (£1-60 per min from Jandahar!!)
so you self-certify up to £3-30 for a small travel bottle of Doby Dust/Fluid which only covers your shreddies/socks/nicotine smelling t-shirt...travel (one-shot) bottles are quite pricey!!
Total ..nearly £10-00
Plus you will have to convert that to local dink for your RoPE form!!!

Then you go out and spend your DS on a nice meal with 1/2 bot wine (Brize) or softies (Lye)...

More LAter;
'J' Bloke!!

[philrigger]

Green Flash.

As a CS I have been on many RAF courses. It makes no difference to us. Either we are authorised to go or we are not. Our claim will be the same.

'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[Green Flash]

PhilR

Who auths (pays) your claim - CS or RAF? :confused:

[Truck2005]

I will back PR up on that one. I have been on many RAF courses, (to work on RAF equipment). Once we are authed we are on actuals. However, the bean counters in our accounts DO treat us as adults. We have to produce the receipts but an advance is given if asked for. Accom is paid for, as usual. A midday meal, (with drink), and an evening meal with alcohol. We fill in the claims form, deduct any advances and pay/get paid the difference.

We do get the usual queries from accounts but normally most things are acceptable, (unless you have really cocked up the figures).

I think the difference is we complete our own forms and a great deal is put on honesty and trust, (if that is a difference).

Green Flash.

The RAF charge the Facility for the course and are paid from the facility budget. In the 26 years I was in, the anti-fun squad was forever trying to demoralise personnel, particularly on the AT/AAR fleet. All I can say is that the crews I flew with always went out of their way to ensure that the ground crew were watered and fed, (some captains have delayed to give them time to recover. Sleep that is).

I take my hat off to any of you that I flew with on the Victors Fun bus:D

[Hoots]

Fellow capped actual users, whats happening around the various stations with regards to having a sensible couple of beers or wine with a meal as I seem to be hearing different stations applying different rules. Couldnt find anything mentioned on the subject in JSP 752. Also, have been told that IE can only be claimed retrospectively and not up front, is this the same at every station? Can the young LAC or SAC afford to go on det and have to stump up laundry, phone charges etc. Is the 10% allowed for gratuity included in the DS or can it be claimed back in addition to? What if in the USA where the service charge is included on the bill and is above 10%? Seems that morale is getting lower all the time, as the admin burden increases steadily. How many more push factors are we going to get before the powers to be wake up and smell the roses, for the sake of pennies in the overall scheme of things why could it not be just left the way it was. I also feel for the poor imprest clerks who have had their hours cut and are job sharing and have now had the workload vastly increased. One stated the other day that it tool a full week to go through all the receipts, paperwork etc and the in tray is filling up and overflowing rapidly. I can't wait til i go to the USA for a month on capped actuals, is the hassle all worth it. Would be more acceptable perhaps if the civil service had the same rules.

[Sven Sixtoo]

The oddest thing I've found having read JSP752 (sad)(and this was confirmed by my Stn Allowances people yesterday) is that as soon as the journey is over 5 hr, I'm entitled to actuals up to the UK DS rate of £21. Given that the 5-10 hr rate used to be about £4, and the over 10 hr rate about £9, this seems a huge advance. It's so odd I'm unconvinced despite best advice.

Anyone confirm?

Sven

[Brown Job]

You are correct for any duty over 5 hours and more than 5 miles from your place of (temp) duty you can claim for up to £21 receipted costs. It covers breakfast (if not covered by NS) and or lunch and or dinner so one expensive meal or three cheap ones its your choice!:ok:

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Hoots,
Crikey - loadsa questions, still this is my understanding:
Fellow capped actual users, whats happening around the various stations with regards to having a sensible couple of beers or wine with a meal as I seem to be hearing different stations applying different rules.Couldnt find anything mentioned on the subject in JSP 752.
The JSP just states that lunch is "two courses and a drink" and dinner "three courses and a drink". I don't believe there has been any central guidance on the meaning of "drink", i.e. alcohol allowed or not. As a result local rules seem to be being applied by each Stn. I hear the Secret Airbase in Oxon is allowing half a bottle of wine but others say none at all!
Also, have been told that IE can only be claimed retrospectively and not up front, is this the same at every station?
IE is also worked out only on actual expenditure so can't be claimed in advance.
Can the young LAC or SAC afford to go on det and have to stump up laundry, phone charges etc.
AFAIK there have been at least two ways developed to dealing with the pay now/claim back afterward problem, either:
1. You claim an advance before you go, but this seems tortuous in itself.
2. Crew based aircraft are continuing to take Imprests, but as has been mentioned elsewhere on this and other threads, this adds to the workload of the Imprest Holder.
Is the 10% allowed for gratuity included in the DS or can it be claimed back in addition to?
Yes your capped actual includes the gratuity.
What if in the USA where the service charge is included on the bill and is above 10%?
AFAIK this is tough - the extra above 10% comes out of your own pocket, but I'll defer anyone who has come up with a legal way round this.
Would be more acceptable perhaps if the civil service had the same rules.
Can't agree more.
D4R

[Grimweasel]

The service charge is included in the allowance. Therefore you must spend 10% less on the meal to cover the tip as well. Read it somewhere but can't remember where. No bleating...just have to deal with it troops!!

[L1A2 discharged]

Just been to where men wear skirts for a trip. Had an advance, took 2 tries to get that sorted.

came back, put claim in.

No problem so far, however, ... the system has not recognised the advance and has paid me twice. Spoke to hurrah (HR) and they advised me to speak to JPAC. No reply so far ...

I am told that 'over issues' will be reclaimed from the next months pay after the claim hits 31 days, not spending it just waiting and seeing.

Still, it beats not being able to get an advance :)

[Yeller_Gait]

D4R,

To expand on your answers above, and quoting from JSP 752,

if the service charge/gratuity is included in the bill then any percentage is payable, but only up to your daily subsitence limit. A maximum 10% optional gratuity is admissable.

03.0111. Gratuities and Service Charges. If a gratuity (which is optional) or service charge (which may be discretionary) is included in the bill, it may be reclaimed. It is recognised that countries have different customs and expected percentages vary. As a general rule, any gratuity or service charge not included in the bill may be claimed, but should not exceed 10% of the value of the bill. Total reimbursement for food, drinks and gratuities or service charges is restricted to the DS limit.

Incidental expenses is a flat rate £5 in UK, and £10 overseas, payable if concurrently with Night subsistance. There is no reason why you can not claim for IE as part of an advance of rates.

03.0113. Incidental Expenses (IE). IE are designed to cover necessary personal incidental expenses actually incurred when an overnight absence in a hotel or temporary Service single accommodation is occupied. Allowable expenses are the cost of laundry/dry cleaning expenses, a daily telephone call home of up to 3 minutes duration and a daily newspaper. IE may be paid concurrently with all types of NS, but not with DS. Reimbursement of actual expenditure is to be supported by receipts (see paragraph 03.0171) and is limited to the rates at Chapter 1 Section 6.

For what it is worth, here we have been told that a 1/2 bottle of wine or two beers is acceptable with a meal.

Y_G

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

We have also had the alcohol rule changed here in Wilts:ok:

As regards IE and capped actuals blah if everything you purchase is under £5 in value you can self certificate and DO NOT need to provide reciepts. Our imprest office have stated that if you decide to purchase snacks and beverages during the course of your night stop, each to a value of less than £5, you can self certificate the whole lot and DO NOT need to provide any reciepts:ok: Sometimes I just love this job:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Down 4 Reprogram]

Y_G and ABIW,

Thanks for the extra info, the fog clears a little.

Good to hear that common sense is beginning to spread over the half a bottle of wine rule, hopefully it will reach here eventually.

D4R

[Melchett01]

Not noticed any common sense at my end of the trench regarding this.

Have just come back from a couple of weeks away at another unit. Day before last we all had to work late, something that only became apparent as the afternoon pushed on and the weather suddenly improved allowing sorties to go. Unfortunately, at the same time, the Mess was having a formal function so dinner was at 1630 or some Godforsaken time in the Sgts Mess when the ac were still up and everyone still working.

So we all got back late, hurrumphed at being denied access to the bar due to lack or 5s / tuxes and invaded the local curry house and we didn't even kick the arse out of it - starter, main course and a drink before retiring to a local hostelery.

36 hours later, our wonderful remfs tell us we are only entitled to Missed Meals payment for dinner and we can't claim for the cost of the meal. Apparently it was our own fault we missed dinner and we should have done something about it when we realised. Of course I'm sure the chefs and Mess Manager would have been only too delighted to rustle something up for us and put the function on hold. The Stn Cdr, Mayor and god knows who would have understood, I'm sure.

What a load of bollocks. I'm all for financial responsibility, but this is taking the pi55. It's yet again a total lack of flexibility by a system geared to the needs of the remfs and the bean counters, lacking any understanding of what the front line needs.

Edited after stopping fuming quite so much!

[Hoots]

Thanks for the info chaps, pleased to say that the sensible booze rule has reached here also, albeit after two dets on capped actuals and they wont let us claim retrospectively, even though I havnt put the paper work in yet.

Seems a bit crazy that the actual is for that day only, we were held up due to unforseen circumstances after landing one night and by the time we got back to the hotel everything had closed. even in it were open say after midnight, that would be using the next days actual and therefore would have to payback the previous little used one.

I dont mind accounting for what I spend but they should at least let you carry over actuals from one day to another, as long as it is accounted for then whats the problem. Another point raised was that when eating in a group and getting a group bill divided up whatever way you want to, we had to photocopy receipts so that everyone could have one for their records. After a short while the hotel, started charging for the photocopying, as it was about a dozen copies most meal times. It wasn't a problem for us due to having an imprest, but if using an advance then this should come under incidentals. Crapped actuals may me okay for small groups but is a real pain for large crews. Guys are not doing their primary jobs when returning from det, they are taking hours to sort out all the paperwork and take back any unused cash, including all the coins possible.

Am really looking forward to going to the states for a month on capped actuals, where the tip is generally greater than 10% and non-negotiable.

[Ginseng]

The latest offering I have for you all is that the JSP 752 will, apparently, be amended in future to state that the "drink" with a meal may be an alcoholic drink. There will be no more detailed definition of what constitutes a "drink". Of course, it will have to be paid for within your capped actual, or from your own pocket, which I suppose suggests some kind of limit (small in my case, but that is more due to an ageing bladder than an empty wallet!). Unfortunately, the amended JSP will probably also provide leeway for local commanders to make additional policy where they deem it appropriate. I guess it can't all be good news! Difficult to see, though, how that can be squared with the idea of a common tri-service system.

Regards

Ginseng

[Brown Job]

In pongoland, being simple souls, we take the letter of the law. A drink is what it says; a beer, a glass of wine, a whisky. The choice is yours but it is still, ....a drink.

[Sloppy Link]

Yep, me too. A drink is just that, what it is made up of is immaterial. The JSP is the written deliberately so that local commanders do not place an extra limitation upon existing limitation.
One problem with capped is when you find yourself in US BoQ for a period of time. Going out to eat and provide receipts is all very well but if it means having to get up an hour earlier to find a breakfast bar and then having to plough through a US breakfast but after a week of that regime, your liver and other parts of your digestive tract will not get the joke. There is not the ability to produce supermarket receipts for some cereal and pint of milk a day.
Finally (apologies if someone has raised it earlier), I defy anyone to feed themselves to a reasonable standard for £21 in London. Cup of tea alone is £1 to £1.50. A lunch in a TA Barracks is £12. There is over half my entitlement gone without my having breakfast and I still have evening meal ahead of me. We have been seen off.

[Now a 'J' Bloke!!]

I defy anyone to feed themselves to a reasonable standard for £21 in London. Cup of tea alone is £1 to £1.50. A lunch in a TA Barracks is £12. There is over half my entitlement gone without my having breakfast and I still have evening meal ahead of me. We have been seen off.

Dear Sloppy;

The Breakfast 'rate' is part of NS and if you are not on B&B, then it is payable on top of your £21. Can't remember what it is though (£4.??ish).

But you are right though....it is impossible to get the 2 course lunch and 3 course dinner (with 'drink') for £21.

PS...Just went to the supermarket for brekky bits on a recent jaunt...Justification is that the hotel did not provide my preferred option...

Regards to Most;
'J' Bloke!!:cool:

[Sloppy Link]

Any one one caught the gem about using your car for duty journeys? Must prove before use that you have business insurance with £10M (yes, £10M!) cover for death or injury to a passenger, a third party or to property. Who has that level of cover (apart from people using their vehicles for business use....not transporting themselves to meeting)? This now means that as there are not enough Mil vehicles in the pool for all the meetings that an A&SD HQ staff have to attend, the local hire companies are going to be rubbing their hands in glee. The reason alot of people use their own cars is convenience which equals morale. It would certainly annoy to drive 10 miles into work to pick up a Mil/Hire car only to drive past my house on the way to the meeting a further 10 miles away. A 20 mile journey that would cost £5 or so PCR (do not forget PCR journeys are abated by any RILOR/RESPOD already being drawn) becomes £25 for a hire car plus petrol. What with the faff of worktickets, fuel cards, having to park your own car a 5 min walk from the MT gates which are locked at 0700 in the morning so a 10 min walk to the Guradroom to draw the keys to find you are not on the key list when some civvy who does not know what a sense of urgency turns up blah blah blah you can see where I am coming from. The rules state this is for all PCR claims so that means that on posting, I will get a hire car to get me to my new posting and then will have to somehow get back to my old posting to collect my own car to go to my new unit. What is the difference between my receiving RILOR/RESPOD to travel from my home to my normal place of work (no proof of any insurance required) and travelling to a different (temporary) place of duty? Finally,if you use a motorbike, then only third party insurance is required. Clearly, they consider motorbikes to be safer. I would wager that RoSPA would have a view on this.
Afternote...My Father runs a small business with a fleet of 3 vehicles. He has Fleet Business Insurance from one of the major insurers and is not covered to that level. Collectively, his vehicles cover 150K miles per annum. I can expect to cover about 1K
A perfectly good system that suited those who wanted it to. Why do people feel they have to interfere.

[Sloppy Link]

TQ J Bloke, was unaware of the £4 ish for brekky.

[Brown Bear]

Sat in a brief today with the new chief. He said he was keen to get rid of all the niff naff and triv! I wonder if he keeps his receipts?? :hmm:

[Ginseng]

JSP 752 has been amended to version 3, effective 26 May 06. A few of snippets from the changes include:

On Incidental Expenses: You can now spread your phone calls over the total number of days for which IE is claimed (good), but the JSP only specifically refers to reclaiming the actual cost of "buying a phone card" rather than aggregating other calls at the nominal rate of 3 minutes per day (why not?). No similar wording change to cover the laundry situation either.

On Day subsistence: You are only allowed now to claim for the cost of buying "prepared food", meaning anything from "a ready-made sandwich to a meal of several courses in a restaurant". It is apparently now illegal to buy the makings and construct your own sandwich, even if the costs fall within your allowable DS capped rate. Why, for heaven's sake? There must be bigger problems to be addressed than this!

Haven't seen the promised change to the definition of a "drink". I guess that is for the next amendment.

Regards

Ginseng

[Ginseng]

Oops. I should have read a bit more closely. The laundry wording has been changed; you can now officially aggregate the actual receipted cost of a wash over several days. Aplogies to all. Alternatively, do only up to £5 worth of washing each day, for which you won't need a receipt. What a great system this is! Must be careful not to choke on my pre-prepared sandwich.

Regards

Ginseng

[Confucius]

Haven't seen the promised change to the definition of a "drink". I guess that is for the next amendment.
Regards
Ginseng

Well, if it changes to non-alchoholic I would expect a lot more claims for 'snack meals' <£5 local equiv and people asking for separate drinks receipts during evening meals. Where there's a will there's a way.

Still, under the old rates system I probably wouldn't have bothered having a steak - with lobster and/or shrimps on top, naturally - every evening meal bar one - the decent restaurants were closed when we made it down town one night - on a 16 day det.

[Yeller_Gait]

Sloppy Link,

When our MT section suggested that I needed business insurance in order to use my own car for a duty journey recently, I took the liberty of phoning my insurance company, and they were quite happy for me to use my car for the occasional "duty journey", be it sport or going to Leuchars for a week etc.

Business use insurance would only be required if I was to use my own car in the course of my daily duties, other that travelling to/from work. An example would be that if you had to travel between several places of work on a daily, or regular, basis, then that would constitute business travel.

Funnily enough, MT have never asked me again if I have business cover for using my own car.

Another pearl from the MT corporal was that you are not allowed to drive for 7 or more consecutive working days. My request to go away for a weekend of representative sport would be turned down by MT if I had been at work for the 5 previous days apparently. Having told him that I would therefore take a days standdown during the week he was quite happy. On reading the appropriate JSP, I discovered that the 7 day rule only applies to "professional" drivers, ie MT drivers etc. It does really hack me off the way that some empires go out of their way to make things as difficult as possible for you to do what you need/want to do.

Y_G

[Brown Job]

Your insurance company may be content unfortunately the JSP ("the law") states that you can only claim MMA if you have this level of insurance. If you break this knowingly then you may be subject to disciplinary action.

Also your pay staff should not be allowing you to claim without having signed the certificate to say you have the correct level of insurance:ugh:

[4fitter]

Spot on BJ. I suppose it just means that I will either be using MT and driver or public transport, if suitable. 4f's private car will never be used again.