Weekend in the Isle of Man [Archive]

nigelisom

3rd May 2006, 11:51

Hi all

This weekend I intend (weather permitting) to fly from Rochester to the IOM for the weekend.
I am a low hours PPL with night but no IMC flying a very well equiped turbo Arrow.
I would appreciate any advice on routing/local proceedures from any regulars to the IOM. (I already know about special branch/customs requirements and will be filing a flight plan I am just looking for any "wrinkles" that would be useful to know while I am flight planning).
Many thanks
Nigel

Jodelman

3rd May 2006, 12:45

The trip to the IOM from EGTO is very straightforward. EGTO - BPK - DTY - LIC - EGNR - DCT. Need to talk nicely to Luton for the BPK/DTY leg. Don't forget you need to arrange handling, I suggest Manx Aero Club is favourite and they may still have a car that they will rent to you for a small fee.
Over the years, I have found an IMC rating to be very useful to escape from the Island which seems to have its own weather system. I now use BA in the winter as its cheaper and more reliable!

dublinpilot

3rd May 2006, 12:46

Watch out for the landing/handling fees. It's not the cheapest place in the world to land.

A recent overnight trip cost us about £45. We effectively handled ourselves too, despite having to pay the club handling fee.

I could recommend the Sefton hotel in Douglas. Their Atrium rooms are lovely. As we hadn't prebooked, just turned up on their doorstep, we managed to get an atrium room for £90 B&B. Excellent value for a beautiful hotel. They have free wifi in the rooms too, and if you've no pc with you, you they have a "library room" with a pc set up. Very handy for weather, flight plans & notams for the return trip.

dp

cyclicmicky

3rd May 2006, 13:37

Agree with the landing fees Dublinpilot, flew in for the TT races and parked at Manx aero club. Hired the clubs car for a couple of days or so, about fifty quid...very reasonable. The folks at Manx aero club got the wx for us when leaving from their own computer and were generally very helpful and friendly... a nice club with nice members!!. When leaving we crossed for fuel, and were promptly hit for another bloody landing fee.
It does have it's own weather system, up on the higher ground was very misty. The special branch notification we did by fax...no problems at all.
Crossed from point of Ayr on the way out after fuelling at Hawarden, and on the return trip came all the way to EGBE after getting full tanks at Ronaldsway.
We also stayed at the Sefton...they do lovely kippers for breakfast:ok:
Have a good trip.
CM

Mixed Up

3rd May 2006, 14:13

I hope you have a great weekend!

I am a low hours PPL with night but no IMC flying a very well equiped turbo Arrow.

With no instrument flying expertise you'd be better off in a poorly equipped Arrow. One poor bloke (and his wife) tragically died in the Irish Sea last year in a "well-equipped PA-28". He was a low-hour PPL without an IMC. Don't 'think' you can pull it off - stay clear of cloud and don't be tempted to push on! Keep safe.

dwshimoda

3rd May 2006, 14:45

With no instrument flying expertise you'd be better off in a poorly equipped Arrow.

Just curious, but why do you say this? The chap is trying to fill has bag of experience, and is seeking peoples suggestions and help to make his trip easier / safer - I'm not sure what equipment levels has to do with safety?

DW.

dublinpilot

3rd May 2006, 14:52

Mixed up,

I appreciate that your comments were well intended.

Or perhaps you know more about Nigelisom, than we do? I don't know.

But I don't see anything in his original post to suggest that he was going to try to "pull off" something. In fact he says quite clearly that his trip is Weather Dependent.

There is nothing wrong with a PPL "VFR Only" doing a trip to the Isle of Man. I am VFR only have have do a number of such trips. It's certainly posible to do safely, or as safe as over water flying can be.

The trick to VFR touring, is to make sure you have nothing at all planned for the day after your return (well no meetings etc), and nothing that can't be pushed back for the rest of the week. Important meetings, or approaching deadlines and VFR touring don't really go well together, in my experience. Once you do this, most of the pressure if taken away from you, and an extra day or two at your destination isn't too much of a problem.

dp

dwshimoda

3rd May 2006, 15:05

Nigelisom,

I've not been to IOM myself, but am based at Cranfield, and have done the route Jodelman suggests when I went to meet my parents at Hawarden.

Firstly, Luton are normally very helpfull, I've only once not managed to get a clearance, although I have had to wait a few minutes occassionally. Be confident and professional on the RT (make sure you already know what you want to say) and try and familiarise yourself with the area, they'll then probably ask you to cross the threshold of the runway in use, not above 1,500 feet. It's no big deal, and as soon as your past they'll expect you to QSY en route - Cranfield is probably your best bet then.

Keep your beacon tracking good on the DTY - LIC sector, as it's easy to bust Birmingham if you're above 2,000 feet!

Approaching EGNR again keep an eye on your altitude for the Manchester & Liverpool zones. Once pst EGNR, enjoy - it's beautiful scenery!

One thing, I have no clue about endurance for an Arrow, but Avgas availaibility at EGNR can be very patchy, and the landing fee will make your eyes water!

Hope you have a great trip - and don't forget your lifejackets!

DW

gcolyer

3rd May 2006, 15:22

I live on the Isle of Man and fly regularly. Your landing fee will be about £15 if you use manxe Aero Flyers.

As for the weather, it usualy sucks! If the cloud is low or the south of the Island is fogged in then reroute to the north of the island staying out of controled airspace and you should be able to put down at Andreas which is a disused RAF base. the RWY is pretty poor so once you get down keep the speed low and the yoke back.

I probably use Andreas more than Ronaldsway:

1) It's free
2) It is not busy (hardly ever used)
3) 90% if Ronaldsway has low cloud or fog, Andreas does not

As for size you will have no problems getting an Arrow. I usualy fly an Archer or Cherokee 6 in and out of there. My mate takes twins in and out.

I might be able to arrange fuel at Andreas for you.

PM me if you want details about Ronaldsway or Andreas.

Aussie Andy

3rd May 2006, 15:28

Went there last weekend, handling with Manx Flyers. Photos here if interested: http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyhardy/sets/72057594121868219/

We had pretty grey weather on the way back, i.e. ~1000' cloud-base and although vis was ostensibly, with a grey sky meeting a grey Irish sea, there was little distinct horizon. On this sort of day you can be legally VFR but without an horizon you would be better of with IMC skills. So as you coast out I would recommend you ask yourself the question "am I OK with this" before you get more than ~5 miles offshore and can sstill see back to where you came OK. (Apologies if this is in any way insulting, and for all I know you may have plenty of experience...)

On the day we were there, Manx Flyers were a bit busy: there had been a recent change of staff and they were "swamped" with ~6 a/c due to a fly-out from Blackpool, so we had to wait ~15 mins to get forms filed and then for fuel, but no big problem. The grub in the cafe was good (good sandwiches / baguettes - and even Redbush herbal tea! Didn't try anything else).

Your landing fee will be about £15 if you use manxe Aero FlyersNo way! We used Manx and it cost us around £45...!

Here is a pic of the approach to RWY 08:

http://static.flickr.com/55/138186177_26ba7f2c3b.jpg

Hope this helps!

Andy :ok:

dublinpilot

3rd May 2006, 15:41

I live on the Isle of Man and fly regularly. Your landing fee will be about £15 if you use manxe Aero Flyers.

No way! We used Manx and it cost us around £45...!
Andy :ok:

It was about £45 for us too, about 3 weeks ago, with 1 nights parking.

Maybe it's one price for locals, and one for foreigners? :}

PM me if you want details about Ronaldsway or Andreas.

gcolyer,

I'd be interested in hearing more about Andreas. Where can I find out about it. Didn't see it mentioned in Pooleys or the AIP, and it's marked on the CAA Chart as a microlight site. I really enjoyed the Isle of Man. I thought it was a lovely place, and really friendly, and I fully intended to return.......until I get the bill! I was told, and was expecting a bill of £20.

For the 45 minute flight from Dublin the £45 landing fee almost represents the cost of the flight in one direction!

I wasn't aware of Andreas, and would be interested in finding out more!

nigelisom

3rd May 2006, 15:52

Thanks for the replys

I have no intention of pushing the imc window, if the weather is crap we don't go, if it turns crap en-route we divert and if it turns crap while we are there we stay over until it gets better!

I have done the route up over EGNR and then round to Caernarfon before and have had no problems getting zone clearances from Luton in the past.

Manx aero flyers will be getting a call and thanks for the tip on Andreas, I seem to remember from my TT days that there used to be an airfield at Jurby is that still true or is that Andreas?

Range on the Arrow is no problem (the trip + more than 3 hours reserves).

Does anyone have any comments on the W2 route from north of Manchester?

Thanks again for all the replies and thanks for your concerns for our wellbeeing I can assure you all I am very careful and will not be pushing my luck so lets hope the weather holds.

Nigel

Jodelman

3rd May 2006, 16:01

Jurby still exists and is open for visitors during the annual airshow. A friend used to keep his Cozy there but that was some years ago now.

Aussie Andy

3rd May 2006, 16:03

Hi DP, It was about £45 for us too, about 3 weeks ago, with 1 nights parking.I think we were ripped off as we didn't park overnight!!! I am going to query the bill, thanks!!

Andy :ok:

Aussie Andy

3rd May 2006, 16:16

I just spoke to the (new) bloke at Manx Flyers who has clarified what we should have been charged:

Landing fee: £15.45 + VAT = £15.15
Compulsory Handling fee: £20 + VAT = £23.50
--------
TOTAL: £41.65

Parking overnight would be extra on top apparently...

Andy :ok:

Jodelman

3rd May 2006, 16:24

Return airfare by BA Connect - LTN to IOM - £69 .20!!

Aussie Andy

3rd May 2006, 16:26

.. then there's the fuel etc! But lets face it, we don't do this to save money :)

gcolyer

3rd May 2006, 16:49

I guess the handling fee is the spanner in your works. As i am a club member i guess i don't pay them :)

Andreas is not licensed, there is no tower or staff, you wont find it the AIP or flight guides. It is marked on the chart as a microlight site. I have never seen a microlight there, but i have seen a glider there.

The RWY's are

24 - 06
29 - 11 (stay to the North of this runway when on the ground or you will chuck stones everywhere)

Turbulence and windshear can be pretty grim if there is a sourtherly (ish) wind. If so slow it up a bit and you should be OK.

Dont confuse it for Jurby or you might find yourself in trouble! Jurby is on the North West of the island, Andreas is further east.

Aussie Andy

3rd May 2006, 16:51

Do you need anyone's permission to land at Andreas, e.g. the land owner?

Andy

gcolyer

3rd May 2006, 17:06

nigelisom

3rd May 2006, 17:13

By the way what are fuel prices like at Ronaldsway?

Gcolyer, do you know runway lengths at Andreas it sounds a very useful bolt hole for the famous manx weather clamp down also do you talk to anyone radio wise when using it?

Jodelman if I wanted economy I would never have started flying, still might be good to know if the weather turns REALLY crap while we are there!

Nigel

dublinpilot

3rd May 2006, 17:18

You may well do. I am not 100% sure. The aircraft i use belong to a friend of the land owner so i have never had to cross that bridge. i know other people use the airfield as well. I can try to find out.

Gcolyer,

That would be great! A contact number would be brilliant! If you'd prefer to pm rather than post, that's fine.

I'd love to return to the IOM, but £45 is a bit off putting for what we got.

Didn't hear anything about a club car.

dp

gcolyer

3rd May 2006, 17:46

I am not sure on the RWY lengths, i would say they are at least 750 meters.

I have the name of the two guys that own the land, i am just waiting for a number now. I have been told there is a £10 landing fee for singles and £20 for twins.

When you land there you need to sign in and out, you also need to fill in a customs form while there and don't forget special branch.

As for fuel there is none there, but i know a guy that might sell some and bring it up in Jerry cans. Mind you during TT he takes his bowser up there.

jabberwok

3rd May 2006, 18:21

Here's a chart I made for Andreas some time ago.
Note that this was for my own use and I cannot verify ANY of the data is accurate any more. The picture is probably still current though..
http://www.homepages.mcb.net/bones/images/Andreas.gif

dublinpilot

3rd May 2006, 19:01

Thanks for that!

I'll give that phone number a call, next time I'm planning on going to the IOM, and see if he still owns the place!

Would be great to have somewhere a bit more reasonable to go!

dp

dwshimoda

3rd May 2006, 19:56

Jabberwock:

Ever thought of getting a job working for Pooleys! That's amazing attention to detail - nice one!

jabberwok

3rd May 2006, 22:19

A full size version can be got here - Andreas_L.gif (http://www.homepages.mcb.net/bones/images/Andreas_L.gif)

I modelled it on the Pooley layout so I could paste it into my copy of the book. The map is accurate - I flew in there many years ago when it was considered inactive.

nigelisom

4th May 2006, 09:14

Thanks again guys

Jabberwok I am humbled by your flight preperation, truly awesome, many thanks for sharing the results of your labours. (have you been anywhere else off the beaten track and as useful as this?)

Any knowledge of fuel prices at Ronaldsway anyone?

Nigel

gcolyer

4th May 2006, 11:03

I think i paid £1.31 a few weeks back. If you are looking at going to Cardiff then i would recommend Upfield Farm. It is a few miles East of Cardiff.

Costs £10 to land
Rental Car £10 for a weekend
No overnight fees
No fuel

The RWY is 640x10. If on approach to 05 you literaly fly between two houses, on climb out from 05 you need to pretty much start a right turn unless you want to fly in to pylons.

I have been in with a Cessna 337 and 4 people.

jabberwok

4th May 2006, 11:29

Have you been anywhere else off the beaten track and as useful as this?

Yes - I made up about half a dozen such charts for other airfields. The bad news is that I lost them all in a HD crash about a year ago. :ugh:

I have the complete data for Jurby too but in AIP format. Not much use for anyone as the only time you can go in there is for the annual air show.

Now that Google Earth is around you can make quite good plates for most airfields - assuming they are found in the high res photo areas. A few minutes with PSP or Photoshop can give you a very nice plate.

nigelisom

10th May 2006, 09:27

Just by way of follow up to all those who were helpful enough to reply.

My wife and I had an interesting trip, Saturday travelled to IOM 2hrs 10 mins lovelly flight absolutely no problems. The guy at Manx flyers was efficient and helpful and soon had us away in their hire car for a very pleasant weekend.
Sunday afternoon departed for Rochester with resonable met but by the time we got to Liverpool discretion was the order of the day and we requested a weather diversion into Hawarden were we ended up overnight. (If anyone needs a good hotel for the night in the Chester area, I can recommend the Chester Court Hotel on Hoole Road, thanks to my helpful taxi driver).
Monday we spent the day at Hawarden ATC waiting for the weather to improve and eventualy got away late afternoon.
By the time we got to the DTY vor the cloud base was lowering and it was starting to rain and when we contacted Luton we were refused a transit so turned east to cut through the gap. We got as far as Cranfield when I decided that the weather was getting beyond a joke so requested another weather diversion into Cranfield. We have a friend in MK so was able to arrange transport and a bed for the night and then spent a long morning with the guys at Cranfield waiting for a window, wich eventually arrived about 12:30 and we were able to complete our fight to Rochester.
So 2 hours there, 2 days back, probably not a record but a further incentive to find the time to get round to doing that IMCR.
Anyway thanks again to all who took the trouble to answer my questions, all useful advice, I flew over Andreas on a lap of the island and it looks to be a very useful alternative and very much in use.

Nigel

Aussie Andy

10th May 2006, 09:42

nigelisom: thanks for the update - glad it all worked out well! Sounds like an expensive return trip, given the landing fees at Cranfield!!!

Andy :ok:

dublinpilot

10th May 2006, 10:13

What a way to answer those who questioned if you had the experience to make a good weather call!

Well done. Not only on making the flight sucessfully, but also on handling the weather issues with a professional attitude! :ok:

My first overnight trip as a PPL was to the Outer Hebridies, and like you, the trip there was uneventful, and the one home was a struggle with the weather which involved two extra nights!

It serves to highlight the point I made about VFR touring in my first post.

The trick to VFR touring, is to make sure you have nothing at all planned for the day after your return (well no meetings etc), and nothing that can't be pushed back for the rest of the week. Important meetings, or approaching deadlines and VFR touring don't really go well together, in my experience. Once you do this, most of the pressure if taken away from you, and an extra day or two at your destination isn't too much of a problem.

I'm sure it's a point you understand very well now :)

If it's any consolation, I haven't had to spend an extra night anywhere else in the 18 months and many trips since then! Hopefully you'll have a similar run of good luck too :)

I hope you enjoyed your time on the Isle too.

Any pics to share with us???

dp

nigelisom

10th May 2006, 10:17

Andy

Happy to say both Hawarden and Cranfield waived all charges as weather diversions. Shame taxis/hotels/restaurants/tescos (run out of underpants and socks!) don't work the same scheme.

Joking aside I highly applaud the weather diversion scheme and top marks to all the airfields that have already signed up to it and lets hope the rest do soon. Worrying about potential landing fees is a pressure you can do without when conditions deteriorate to the extent of needing to land, a large airfield with good facilities and lots of lights is a very welcome sight.

Nigel

nigelisom

10th May 2006, 10:26

Dublinpilot

sorry your post crossed with mine, thank you for your comments and yes we had a most enjoyable time, if anythig enhanced by the unexpected extra nights "on tour", all good experience.
I will look through our pics tonight and sort out a few to post.
Nigel

nigelisom

11th May 2006, 22:08

Sorry to ask dumb questions but I cant find how to post pictures, can anyone give me a 5 line precis please?

Aussie Andy

11th May 2006, 22:28

Open an account at www.flickr.com (free!)
upload your photo there
after photo has been uploaded, click on "all sizes" control above the picture
copy the URL for the (thumbnail, small, medium, large, original) resolution version of your picture
paste the URL into PPRuNe and put [IMG ] and [/IMG ] tags around it!
there, I think that's 5 lines!!

Andy :ok:

nigelisom

11th May 2006, 22:50

Thanks Andy
Its getting late now, I will have a look at doing that tomorrow
Nigel

nigelisom

12th May 2006, 11:37

Hopefully pictures as promised
http://static.flickr.com/14/145019072_e2a69bf8fa_o.jpg
Jurby
http://static.flickr.com/55/145019073_4b0f8a1179_o.jpg
Andreas
http://static.flickr.com/56/145019074_928af49b53_o.jpg
Last view of IOM
http://static.flickr.com/12/145019075_e7d899b1a6_o.jpg
Approaching Liverpool
http://static.flickr.com/51/145019076_a6a3471f14_o.jpg
Liverpool windfarm
Shot 3 and 5 were taken less than 30 minutes apart - shows how fast the weather can change.

dublinpilot

12th May 2006, 12:33

Lovely pics Nigel.

Often the cloud base over land and see is very different. In my limited experience it's usually better over the sea than over land, but I may just be lucky with that!

Jurby looks like a significant and active airfield. I hadn't realised that. I wonder is it available to GA?

Thanks for the pic!

dp

Aussie Andy

12th May 2006, 13:17

Excellent pics Nigel! Thanks for sharing, and glad the instructions were clear enough! :)

Andy :ok:

jabberwok

12th May 2006, 17:46

Jurby has some microlight activity but is otherwise devoid of traffic. Like my earlier Andreas airfield plate here is the last data I had on it:
http://www.homepages.mcb.net/bones/images/Jurby.gif
Full size picture here (http://www.homepages.mcb.net/bones/images/Jurby_L.gif)

The construction in the corner of Nigelisom's picture is a new prison and that leads me to suspect Jurby will never be available for any future traffic.

dublinpilot

12th May 2006, 18:53

Thank you Jabberwok. A mind of information!

dp

007helicopter

14th May 2006, 10:53

Nigel

Glad to here you made it back ok, was wondering on Monday how you were fairing, was very happy to drive on my trip to devon on Monday as at some points the cloud was on the ground. Nice pics.

Talk soon

D

Jinkster

14th May 2006, 16:06

I recommend the Mount Murray Hotel - some lovely South African girls there :D ;) :ok:

flybymike

14th May 2006, 22:58

Folks, If you were visiting the island just for a day trip, what would you do while you were there? Can anyone recommend somewhere good for lunch? Any special "must see" visits or sights? Nice beaches, walks etc?

nigelisom

15th May 2006, 12:35

A lap of the TT course is essential and will give a good overview of the changing scenery round the island, Peel is nice, the beaches/nature reserve up on the north-west coast is worth a look if you like that kind of thing, Douglas is the main town loads of seaside town type 'attractions' including horse drawn trams. The Laxey wheel is worth a look if you like old industrial, and I like the Sulby Glen for scenery/peace and quiet. A boat trip is nice from the south of the Island (water is incredibly clear) and of course a sightseeing flight round the island (watch out for the class D).
Any number of places to eat and drink, you pays your money and takes your choice (Manx Flyers club house food is good if you wind up there).
Nice place, changeable weather (if it is bad at one end of the Island go to the other, it will probably be better), slowish and gentle pace of life with fairly laid back people. No speed limits outside the towns but DON'T speed in the limitted bits they have a low tollerance in their towns (and fair enough I say).
Hope you enjoy it.
Nigel