Avgas prices-What price do you pay?

[Charlie Fox]

Price for Avgas in Jersey has gone from £0.835/ltr in April to £0.92/ltr in May!!
What price are you paying??

[markflyer6580]

£1.09 at Humberside so the refueller told me the other day,scandalous(the price that is,the refuellers are allways nice-they could be on bonus though:} ):rolleyes:

[Mike Cross]

1.25 inc VAT at Popham

[Say again s l o w l y]

£1.15 + VAT in Cumbernauld.
£1.15 + VAT in Perth.
£1.02 + VAT in Glenrothes.

What a rip off! No wonder Oil companies make profits that would make Midas blush.:mad:

[C-dog]

£1.17 + VAT in Dundee yesterday.

I hear Aberdeen is around £1.50, presumably inc VAT.

Scandalous, but not far off the % increase in mogas at the filling stations.

[DaveW]

What a rip off! No wonder Oil companies make profits that would make Midas blush.:mad:

Well in excess of 70% of the price is tax and duty.

[Say again s l o w l y]

They're both as bad as each other, Oil companies may bleat on about how the Govt. takes 70%, but they still make multi-billion £ profits that are rising as fast as the oil prices.

Anyway, it's all a con, Oil Co.s love a destabilised market so they can ramp up prices whilst blaming others. A good trick that!

[fernytickles]

$3.69/gallon at the self serve fuel pumps here in the Midwest, but we recently paid over $5 a gallon at some larger airports in the south. Everyone grumbles and groans and moans until I tell them what folk pay at home. That shuts them up!

[Mark 1]

"Well in excess of 70% of the price is tax and duty."

Well actually for a £1.20 litre of Avgas - Excise duty=29p, VAT=18p
That makes a tadge under 40%, enough maybe, but a long way from 70%.

[bar shaker]

With mogas hitting £1 a litre, Avgas will be £1.50 a litre when bowsers get next re-filled.

[cyclicmicky]

£1.23 inc vat at Sywell...but it ain't cheap to land!!.

[DaveW]

That makes a tadge under 40%, enough maybe, but a long way from 70%.

I stand corrected then; I understood that tax and duty on AVGAS was of a similar order to that on MOGAS, which is >70%.

Can't find current figures at short notice, but:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/930000/images/_933965_fuel_duty3_300.gif
(This is not an invitation to thread drift!)

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Oil companys profits may seem high but they have to re-invest to keep it flowing.
The government just takes and takes.
The next time a politician bleats on about excessive Oil Co profits, ask them how much the government takes per year,
Bet they soon shut up.

[Mark 1]

The duty rates are here duty rates (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_RatesCodesTools&propertyType=document&id=HMCE_PROD1_024961)
Actually only 28.1p for avgas.
The US price is probably a good indication of the "raw" price, and that's pushing $1/litre.
Any suggestions for running a lycoming on processed chip fat?

[proplover]

£1.19 per lit at Sleap but a worrying £1.30 per lit at Caernarfon some 2 weeks ago.

[3FallinFlyer]

$3.69/gallon at the self serve fuel pumps here in the Midwest, but we recently paid over $5 a gallon at some larger airports in the south. Everyone grumbles and groans and moans until I tell them what folk pay at home. That shuts them up!

Doesn't a couple of dollars of that go into a GA fund that provides funding for all these GPS approaches, 5000' runways and pilot operated runway lights at out of the way smalltown airfields??

It's a hard life over there eh :D :D

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've stopped looking, it frightens me too much.

G

[slim_slag]

The US price is probably a good indication of the "raw" price, and that's pushing $1/litreUnleaded gasoline is around $2 per US gallon right now on the spot market in NY, which is around 50c (28p?) per litre. Yes, I know it's not AVGAS, but it's the closest equivalent 'raw' price I can come up with, and as gasoline can easily be shipped is probably not much different to the 'raw' price in Europe (sure somebody knows the real prices)

Doesn't a couple of dollars of that go into a GA fund that provides funding for all these GPS approaches, 5000' runways and pilot operated runway lights at out of the way smalltown airfields??I think US federal taxes on AVGAS amount to around 20c per US gallon (3p/litre). There is an aviation fund and GA contributes around US$600 million per year, so not small change, but GA is huge in the US and far more than spamcans burning AVGAS. This is supposed to be ringfenced and go only into aviation government spending, but who knows what really happens. I think the airport/ATC structure in the US is the only part of my taxes which gives me good value for the money they steal off me :) (both UK and US taxes)

That is an interesting web site Mark 1. A quick sniff around and one finds the duty on a pint of strong ale is 36p per pint, add 35p VAT, and still quite a bit short of the £2.30 it costs down the local.

[Paul Wilson]

Your local is buying that £2.30 a pint bitter for around £100 a barrel tax paid - 88 pints in a barrel - probably loose 5 of those in slops and pipe cleaning, so your friendly local publican is paying £1.20 a pint:hmm:

Mine is £2.85:mad:

[vector4fun]

$3.65 per gallon for 100LL at a small airport self-serve pump in Texas yesterday. But full service at Signature at KAUS is running a bit over $5.00 per gallon last I looked. (One wonders what the city's percent was...)

BTW, local mogas was $2.79 yesterday.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Your local is buying that £2.30 a pint bitter for around £100 a barrel tax paid - 88 pints in a barrel - probably loose 5 of those in slops and pipe cleaning, so your friendly local publican is paying £1.20 a pint:hmm:
Mine is £2.85:mad:

Around 100% markup is pretty much normal for most consumer goods - food, clothes, drink, etc. And at that, your landlord is probably not doing much more than break even.

G

[JW411]

Paul Wilson:

"88 pints is a barrel"

A barrel is 36 gallons (imperial) and is equal to 4 firkins.

A firkin is 9 gallons (72 pints) and two firkins makes a kilderkin.

Only lager comes in aluminium containers of 88 pints and certainly could neither be considered to be a barrel or indeed to be real ale.

[Lower the Nose!]

When I stopped at a small airport in the middle of nowhere, Oklahoma, recently they were displaying an interesting league table of local airports ranked in order of contribution to the local economy. Obviously there are any number of ways of arriving at such figures, but it was striking that even the smallest brought in tens of thousands of dollars a year, and the medium sized ones were deemed to be generating millions. None of them service commercial flights: it is all GA. And all were benefitting their local communities.

Contrast that with small UK aerodromes struggling to make ends meet, and medium sized municipal airports trying to squeeze out unprofitable GA.

I wonder why we can't learn a thing or two from the Americans and make GA a wealth-generating industry rather than just a private foible for the few.

[qdmaviation]

fuel costs are going through the roof, competition between the companies has come down to a decimal point of a penny.

Insurance up by 25% this year alone.

I bet it will hit £1.50 before the end of the summer, it has to stop.

Guernsey £0.44 per litre, Mallorca £0.60.

[qdmaviation]

ps. just spoken to shell who have put 10.5p a litre on avgas to buy in.

Caernarfon will absorb this and try and keep the price at £1.29-£1.30 this month.

Which will be one of the cheapest. Heard a rumour Manchester International is way over £1.50.

[matspart3]

£1.33 at Gloucester, inc. VAT with a discount on landing fee

[Send Clowns]

Best I have found duty-paid (and I fill up in a lot of places, and have 460-litre tanks) was Teeside, £1.00+VAT.

If they are fuelling a BMIbaby then you might have to wait some time! Have lunch in the St George hotel while waiting - the former Officer's Mess from when it was RAF Middleton St George. Food isn't the best I've had but isn't bad and staff are great (and in at least one case rather charming ;)).

Before complaining about fuel-company profits, remember that it would be illegal for them to charge anything less. If they sold their crude for less than market price their shareholders would hold them to account, and the people responsible would, I suspect, be charged with fraud or similar. If they sold the fractions (avgas or kerosene) to their distrubutors for less than market rates then they would be fined heavily for illegal cross subsidy. The distributors then charge what they decide is best for business, but as qdmaviation suggests there is not always a lot of room for manoeuvre.

[Say again s l o w l y]

SC,
How can it be fraud? If you sell at less than market rates, it called competition. Collusion and price fixing is illegal, something that fixing a "market-rate" may well be.

Is it illegal to sell something for 10p that I bought for £1? Stupid yes, but not illegal.

[Send Clowns]

It isn't theirs to sell at discount prices!

Competition is not the undercutting of market rates, it is the process that determines the market rate. Why would you sell a commodity for less the market will bear? That is denying money to investors, who would certainly expect the circumstances to be investigated, with a view to answering that question. I am sure that the investigations would centre on what the individuals concerned might gain (bribes? influence? help friends, inexpectation of return benefits?). If any connection at all could be shown between the directors selling crude at artificially-low prices and those buying it - and it seems unlikely that there would be none - then it seems that some gain would be strongly suggested. Since that is at the expense of the investors, that would I assume be seen to constitute fraud.

The people deciding the price of the oil don't own it. Selling something you buy is not an analogy. You own that, unlike those deciding the price to charge for their company's oil. They are acting on behalf of their shareholders, who between them own the company and thereby all its assets, including unsold product. If the price is low, then those shareholders are being served badly, and the directors can be held legally responsible. If it is possibly they made material gain by serving their shareholders badly then they would face criminal charges!

[Say again s l o w l y]

Many companies use discounting as a way to boost sales, admittedly Oil co.s don't really need to do this because of the demand for their product.

But if they wished to do so as a marketing strategy, then no police force on the planet would arrest them. Shareholders will only care if the profits fall, or the company loses money. Very rarely do shareholders have a say in the day to day running of a business.

If the discounting strategy was a failure and a company lost money, then the shareholders may kick up a stink, but you don't call an EGM everytime you want to make a decision in business.

[GK430]

I sat down last night to work out costs of certain trips relative to current prices.
Looks like I shall be going to the Channel Islands only this year, even though Avgas was about £0.91 on Saturday. Still saving nearly 50% + runway charge reduction.

The long term impact on aviation in general is alarming. Training costs have always been a deterrent and how many who manage to fly the bare minimum to retain licences are going to be hard pushed to carry on?

Anyone know of a good gliding school.......

[welkyboy]

Jersey price is 91.7p per litre this month.
If you are planning a trip abroad from UK, you can uplift the fuel in the UK ,VAT free and also get 28.1p per litre drawback on the dutypaid. So if you are paying £1.30 VAT paid normally, you should only pay around £1.08 VAT free and less 28.1p = 80p per litre. so the Channel Islands prices are actually in real terms 10p a litre more expensive. Unfortunately most GA airfields will not sell you fuel VAT free, you have to uplift from larger airfields who understand the system but then you pay the increased landing fees, swings and roundabouts come into the frame here.

[Team Avi8tor]

Markflyer, you have to add VAT to that!!

And the extortionate landing fee.

And they don't support the free landing fee because of a weather diversion. i.e. you cant get into your base airfield because the wind is dangerously out of limits, unlike 99% of the other airfields in the UK who won't charge!

[qdmaviation]

Heard a rumour that the price may fall next month, at the moment, I would think about 4p a litre. I hope so!!!

Barton is £1.12plus VAT.

[Send Clowns]

Say Again

Reluctant as I am to perpetuate your thread drift, I must point out your misunderstanding of commodity markets and of the responsibilities of company directors.

There is no "marketing strategy" for a commodity market. Suppliers sell at the price purchasers are willing to pay, or stockpile if the price is not what they hope for. Stimulation of demand is by increasing supply which thus reduces prices for the market, not by an individual company reducing its prices. You are confusing that with retail sale - I am talking not talking about Tesco, but about crude oil, which you can't buy at the pump!

I assure you that if I had shares in any company that sold its product for less than the value of that product I would be asking for an investigation. The directors would be liable at the very least to civil action, and if a connection is shown between the directors and those who benefit (in this case the pofiteers who would buy at that price then resell at market value) then certainly they would face criminal sanction, as they potentially benefit from defrauding their investors.

How would you like it if you entrusted your goods bought at £1 to a third party, who tells you he could have sold it for £1.20 but decided instead to sell for 10p? When that third party is being paid £500,000 per annum to make the best of the investment you and others make?

[gyrotyro]

I pay 81.6 p inc vat but I do live in France. Hangarage is £27 per month, no landing fees, tarmac runway with night flying capability. Eat your hearts out folks !

[gaxan]

I have just been charged £1.65 per litre (inc VAT) at Old Warden. -£7.42 per Gal. Outrageous!!!!!

[welkyboy]

Jersey's price has dropped to 84p per litre today, valid till 30/6

[UAV689]

1.40 @ elmsett

1.25 ish @ at crowland

have now replaced engine with an elastic band to reduce costs

[Kiltie]

http://www.thehangar.co.uk/fuel/fuel.shtml

This is a useful link for planning but could do with some updating from your own recent experiences........