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Lister Noble
1st May 2006, 16:28
I'm slightly confused and intrigued to know if there are different views on when HASELL should be used.
This is my understanding.
HASELL is for safety during aerobatic operations
Steep turns,Hasell not needed just a good look out left and right before the manouvre.
Stalls,Hasell required.
But if doing a series of say clean and flapped stalls,do you re do Hasell before each stall ?
Or do you look 90 deg left and right before each one?
Or do you do a Hasell every 5 mins or so during the manouvres?
Lister:)

dwshimoda
1st May 2006, 16:31
I'm a little rusty on this, but if I remember correctly, you do need to do a HASELL before steep turns, as your pulling g and it could be confirmed an aerobatic manouevre.

After each stall I was taught to do a "HELL" check, omitting A & S as you'd already done these. I got told I'd fail my skill test if I didn't do it this way. I passed, so I guess it's correct?

DW

Lister Noble
1st May 2006, 16:36
Well,my CFI of many years experience including a great number of aerobatic displays told me today I don't need Hasell for steep turns!
You can see why I am confused.
Lister:confused:

LysanderV8
1st May 2006, 16:58
HASELL before you start steep turns or stalls - anything that requires height. If you are doing a series of manoeuvres, just HELL after the first one. For the Lookout, I tend to do a 360 and go straight into the first manoevre, then either do an immediate follow on manoevre, eg steep turn to the left followed by one to the right, or do a 180 before changing the exercise I am doing. That's what I've been taught anyway, but I'm sure every instructor has their own variation.

Good luck next week Lister

Lysander

IMC007
1st May 2006, 16:59
LN your CFI is correct in that technically you do not need to do a HASELL check before advanced (steep) turns exercise, however it is probably good practice to do them anyway, you cannot be critised for doing them as part of your airmanship.

If you think about it you actually do most of them anyway before the steep turns exercise. You make sure you have sufficient height, you make sure the flaps are up, that everyone has thier seat belts on tight and of course you would check your T & P's before the excercise anyway and Location and Lookout you would do anyway so although most people don't physically call out the HASELL checks before steep turns they do in fact do most of it anyway.

I personally would do it even in the test as the examiner is not going to fail you for good airmanship, they will fails you for poor or no airmanship.

Fournicator
1st May 2006, 18:14
A steep turn is just that - a slightly sportier turn than you'd normally make. As such, other than a pre-turn lookout, I see no reason to do a set of HASELLs. I can see how it could be argued that a max rate turn could need a set of HASELLs, but I really don't think that the very small risk that the aircraft could be sufficiently mishandled as to depart makes them worthwhile. In addition, many of the particular items covered would be somewhat pointless - for example, I'd be more than happy to turn steeply at relatively low altitude.

However, a stall/spin package or aeros involves a deliberate period of either uncontrolled flight, or at the very least limited manoevrebility, risk of overstress or undesirable handling characteristics if any services are selected, and significant potential danger if there are any loose articles in the cockpit or the crew are not properly strapped in, so therefore definately requires a HASELL check.

Fuji Abound
1st May 2006, 18:14
"LN your CFI is correct in that technically"

Without wishing to be pedantic - why is he tecnically correct. I am not aware where its says you should or should not do a HASELL or anything else for that matter before doing certain manoeuvers.

Good practice is another matter.

I can think of more reasons for doing a HASELL before doing tight turns than before doing an aileron roll!

Say again s l o w l y
1st May 2006, 19:09
The whole point of ex.15 (advanced turns) is to teach you how to avoid another a/c. It is not just a skills building excercise.

Emergency turns (Max rate.) would not be preceded by a HASELL check in real life, so why do them when practising? Do you do a HASELL check before you commence every turn?

HASELL checks are done pre-stalling, but in-between stalls, do a HELL check.

I don't do HASELL before steep turns, rather I tell the student that they need to turn immediately and hopefully they'll be able to do it without losing control of the a/c.

tmmorris
1st May 2006, 19:51
Standard RAF practice AIUI is either 2 x 180deg steep turns or a wing-over as part of the HASELL check, i.e. to check the area is clear.

Tim

Fuji Abound
1st May 2006, 19:57
"rather I tell the student that they need to turn immediately"

Glad you are not my instructor then.

Fournicator
1st May 2006, 20:26
Fuji,

Suspect slow refers to an emergency break, rather than an academic steep turn, where the instructor will clear the airspace (mainly to the right, assuming the stude is sufficiently competent) BEFORE calling a simulated emergency avoidance manoevre. Were the student to delay the turn to lookout in a real situation it could easily cost him/her his/her life, so reliance on the 'big sky' theory kicks in.

F

Fuji Abound
1st May 2006, 21:06
Thinking about it, I cant really think why you would want to do steep turns in real life!

Sure, you look up and there is another aircraft filling your screen. (I have been there once as a “passenger”). The reaction is instant and having made an immediate and very rapid turn of up to 90 degrees you establish back on straight and level and thank your God he missed you. No time for HASELL or anything else for that matter.

Perhaps steep turns are there because it is a good way of establishing the student has a reasonable mastery of the aircraft and could turn away from a conflict in real life without losing control.

For this reason they are a worthwhile practice for any pilot and a very good starting place for aerobatics. Also for this reason the student should be taught good practice because he will go on to do them by himself. A HASELL check takes 30 seconds - that’s all. Before practicing steep turns why not check you are doing them at a safe height (the aircraft might just stall or spin), it is worth checking you have put the flaps away, everything is secure, the fuel is on the correct tank and you have enough to prevent starvation and just in case the engine stops you have in mind where to go, and you are not going to surprise another aircraft.

When he practices them for himself the HASELL check will be automatic and the time he has just done some slow flying, thought he would practice a couple of steep turns, and forgotten to retract the flaps he might be grateful.

Before an aero session a couple of steep clearing turns are a nice way to start. I get the HASSEL checks out of the way then - maybe old habits just die hard!

I can guarantee you one thing whether or not you were taught to do HASELL checks before stepp turns, when you really need to avoid another aircraft filling your screen the reaction will be instant!

I suppose it is a bit like an emergency stop in a car - if you are practising you might want to glance in the rear mirror before doing it!!

stiknruda
1st May 2006, 21:25
Lister - as discussed over a bottle of Pinot Noir this evening, I think that Linda is correct.

An aerobatic maneouver is something over 30 degrees of bank according to the FAA - therefore to ask you to do HASELL checks is really not a big issue.


If I'm dong impromptu aeros, I still do my 2 x 180 degree clearing turns as Tim Morris describes!

You are passing a test - so just do as she expects and you'll pass. Later once you have your ticket you may want to modify her requirements!!!:) :)

Rallye Driver
1st May 2006, 21:34
I once had a Cessna 152 almost collide with me. It was passing above me from right to left and I decided to turn gently to go behind it and give plenty of clearance. Then, it suddenly commenced a diving turn towards me, I turned to keep it in sight and had a hairy few seconds trying to decide what it was doing before managing to break away. It looked as if it was trying to formate on me, he was that close.

I recognised the aircraft from its colour scheme, and went to the airfield it operates from to find out who had been flying it.

An instructor owned up to doing steep turns (with no clearing turns to establish a look out) and neither student nor instructor had seen me until I broke upwards and away from them. His excuse was that it was the end of the day, he was tired and not expecting anyone to be there.

It was a classic case of high wing-low wing obscuring the other aircraft. If I had seen him doing clearing turns it would have alerted me to his possible intentions, and he might have seen me.

Ultimately no harm done, but I was glad I was wearing a parachute. I learnt about flying from that, not sure he did though.

RD

DFC
1st May 2006, 22:08
I hope that I am stating the obvious when I say that it is not height that one needs for a steep turn it is suficient airspeed at all times.

Many pilots doing the traffic aviodance turn fail to retain suficient airspeed and have performance problems or in some cases even stall and remember which way the aircraft will often roll when stalled in a turn........yes back towards the object you are avoiding!

Regards,

DFC

Say again s l o w l y
1st May 2006, 22:09
As I mention before, the point of the excercise is collision avoidance, so checks are not appropriate in this one instance.

How are you more likely to collide with someone in a 45 deg. AoB compared with a 30 deg. AoB turn?

You aren't going anywhere you haven't already looked at, unlike a stalling or aero's sortie where your lookout can be severely degraded compared to normal, despite the best of intentions.
HASELL checks are of course necessary for other manouevers, but are contrary to the point of this excercise.

One last point, just because you perform a HASELL check, it doesn't totally ensure that there is no conflicting traffic, with the closing speeds of a/c and the limited nature of human eyesight a check that happened more than a couple of minutes before can be meaningless.
I am of course assuming that everyone is dilligent in their lookout at all times, as I expect my students to be. (Having had more than one encounter with other machines, I do realise how even a "big sky" can seem very small sometimes.)

A "steep" turn shouldn't ever get near the stall, however I like people to go to max. rate and actually reach the buffet and beyond, so that they can get an understanding of how their machine reacts in (relative) security, just in case it happens for real. I wouldn't however expect someone to demonstrate this on a test unless specifically asked for.

Fuji, I can't imagine why you wouldn't want an instructor to ask you to perform an instantaneous turn, anyone who can't perform this minor task needs to do some practice!;)

BEagle
2nd May 2006, 04:36
HASELL checks are NOT required before flying steep turns UNLESS the FI intends to include manoeuvre stalling as part of the exercise, in my opinion.

Lister Noble
2nd May 2006, 08:31
Thanks you everyone,of course in an emergency HASELL is probably the last thing you would do.
Lots of good replies but still not a complete agreement on yes or no for the HASELL check pre 360 steep turn.
I reckon my safest bet is do one anyway,as some one said I can't be marked down for that,can I?
Lister:confused:

FlyingForFun
2nd May 2006, 09:00
I think, like so many other things, it is a matter of opinion. There are pros and cons to both sides of the argument. And in this particular case there is nothing written down that gives us the answer.

What we, as sensible pilots, ought to do is listen to all points of view, then take all of the information and come up with our own opinion.

I don't do HASELL checks before steep turns - as others have said, I can't see the point of doing a lookout turn before doing a turn. But when I brief my students for this exercise, I explain that some other people will do HASELL checks, and I explain the pros and cons and my reasons for not doing them. Then my students, once they get their license, are in a position to make intelligent decisions for themselves rather than doing what I taught them by rote.

FFF
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Fuji Abound
2nd May 2006, 09:53
FFF - a very good balanced answer.

The only thing I wonder if I am missing is that when I did my PPL (and it was a long time ago so things may well have changed) steep turns consisted of doing a 360, rolling out (sort of in those days) on the original heading. I thought that was what we were discussing?

I would be less concerned about HASELL checks if we are talking about practising an avoiding turn - no more than a 90 degrees turn and roll out on heading. Is that what you are referring to?

However I would still expect the instructor to have had a jolly good look around to make sure the area was clear first - which doubtless you do.

For a 360 turn I beg to disagree - as LN says it only takes 30 seconds, give me one good reason not to do it.

I dont see how a 360 degree turn can be justified as a practice emergency avoidance response in itself?

Out of interest you might also compare and contrast with an aileron roll - no change of heading, positive G throughout so no danger of objects etc flying around, no change of altitude (or perhaps an initial pitch up if you prefer). Would you do a HASELL check in those circumstances and if not why not?

FlyingForFun
2nd May 2006, 10:47
However I would still expect the instructor to have had a jolly good look around to make sure the area was clear first - which doubtless you do.
Indeed - as for any turn. In the case of a high-wing aircraft, this would include raising the down-going wing before the turn to ensure the area you are turning into is clear - as for any turn. And I don't just look myself, I expect my students to look too.I dont see how a 360 degree turn can be justified as a practice emergency avoidance response in itself?I agree. I think the point of the exercise (and it is really just an exercise, not something which has a direct real-life use) is that the student should understand how the amount of back-pressure required increases as bank angle increases, the increased likelyhood of the stall, and the avoidance of and recovery from the spiral dive - all with the aim of ensuring that they don't kill themselves by trying it themselves after their license issue, getting into a spiral dive, and either over-speeding the airframe or the engine, or, worse, not recovering from the spiral dive at all.

(Incidentally, steep descending turns are also part of the exercise - and these do have relevance when doing PFLs: in appreciating the increased rate of descent as bank angle increases, and using this knowledge to a) keep turns shallow when short of height on a PFL, or b) fly steep descending turns as a means of loosing height if high.)

I think the comparison with the aileron roll is a bit unfair, for a number of reasons. Firstly, you say no negative g, which is true if it goes right - but I wouldn't try an aileron roll (especially as an aerobatic student, or with an aerobatic student if I was an aerobatic instructor) with loose objects, in case it goes wrong. Secondly, being upside-down is very disconcerting until you get used to it, even with only positive g, so lookout during the manoevre is quite likely to be non-existant for early aerobatics students. Also, rolls are most likely to be included in (or at least in training for) an aerobatic sequence which has lots of changes of direction, both vertical and lateral, and speed, so a HASELL check is definitely required. None of these apply to steep turns - except possibly for a slight disorientation due to increased g. But that's my personal view (and bear in mind that I'm not an experienced aerobatic pilot, so it's not a well informed view), I'll quite happily accept that your view might not be the same as mine!

FFF
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Say again s l o w l y
2nd May 2006, 11:13
FFF, as per usual has IMHO the correct view on this.

A steep turn excercise is designed to push the students confidence and handling abilities, whilst at the same time teaching how to make avoidance turns. Any comments about aerobatic manoeurvres are mis-leading, since a steep turn is not aerobatic in any way.

Advanced turning is just that, pushing the a/c a bit closer to it's limits and seeing what happens and equipping the student with the neccessary skills to control the machine.

Whether the turn is through 90 deg. or 360 isn't really relevant to the discussion. A 45 AoB level turn doesn't need any lookout over and above what the pilot should already be doing.
Just look before you act. If your lookout is good, it will be just as effective as doing all manner of HASELL checks before the excercise.

DFC
2nd May 2006, 12:11
From a practical point of view have a think about the radius of turn at say 100Kt and 45 deg AOB. It is not very big. One could say that any aircraft that collides with you while doing a steep turn was probably going to collide with you anyway, or at least get so close as to be an Airprox. The large rapid movement of the aircraft entering the steep turn may just be the visual clue that actually highlights the aircraft and enables the other aircraft to see and avoid.

Doing a long detailed HASEll check means spending more time looking inside or close to the aircraft while flying in a straight line which actually increases the collision risk.

I would go for a good lookout and leave it at that.

Why would one ever do a 360 deg avoidance turn? The answer is simple;

You are converging with an aircraft on your right at the same level and do not spot the aircraft that you are required to give way to until it is too late to turn behind. The other pilot maintains heading and speed. You complete a steep left turn through 360deg or slightly less and pass behind the other aircraft. Thus while not an ideal situation you manage to comply with the rules of the air for converging traffic.

Regards,

DFC

Fuji Abound
2nd May 2006, 12:18
FFF

Our views seem closer.

I do agree that the real point of the exercise is for the reasons you now outline.

However, as you go on to say, the object is also to enable the student to feel confident about repeating the exercise once he has his license as part of remaining current. When he does so the instructor will no longer be with him. New PPLs make mistakes. (So do old ones!). For that reason I maintain if you are doing 360 a HASELL is a useful check, if for no other reason than it emphasizes the need for a good look around before commencing, it ensures the pilot will have remembered to check the airframe is clean and given that he might just get into a spiral, he has got height on his side.

In short I would still come back to my original point - why not teach the student to do a HASELL.

A 90 degree avoiding turn I agree is something different and I can accept the justification for "surprising" the student with a few of these - no HASELL check before - but with the instructor having performed a good look out first. However, I don’t think this is what instructors do on the whole - it is the old show me a couple of tight turns please, and the student wheels it round somewhere between 320 and 400 degrees!

I agree the comparison with an aileron roll may not be entirely justified if only because the outcome could arguably be less predictable than a tight turn. However, I would always want to check there was no one around before commencing a tight turn, if for no other reason than I have not got eyes in the back of my head. However for a well executed aileron roll I am doing nothing different than continuing straight and "level" albeit the aircraft is up side down for a moment.

Say it again

"Whether the turn is through 90 deg. or 360 isn't really relevant to the discussion."

I think you have missed the point of the discussion on this occasion.


DFC

"Doing a long detailed HASEll check means"

Can see you have never done one then.

"You are converging with an aircraft on your right at the same level and do not spot the aircraft that you are required to give way to until it is too late to turn behind. The other pilot maintains heading and speed. You complete a steep left turn through 360deg or slightly less and pass behind the other aircraft. Thus while not an ideal situation you manage to comply with the rules of the air for converging traffic."

I can see us all doing that then!

"

Dusty_B
2nd May 2006, 12:25
An aerobatic maneouver is something over 30 degrees of bank according to the FAA

I believe that is incorrect:
Aerobatic is >30 degrees of PITCH AND/OR >60 degrees of BANK.

(edited to include 'OR')

Fuji Abound
2nd May 2006, 12:31
"Aerobatic is >30 degrees of PITCH and >60 degrees of BANK."

So that excludes an aileron roll then :confused:

Dusty_B
2nd May 2006, 12:58
Out of interest you might also compare and contrast with an aileron roll - no change of heading, positive G throughout so no danger of objects etc flying around, no change of altitude (or perhaps an initial pitch up if you prefer).

There are many variations of the definition of an "aileron roll", but it could rarely be defined with maintaining positive G throughout. It should be a manouver using ailerons ONLY, and thus will result in negative G whilst beyond the vertical. If you want to maintain positive, near +1G, you will be doing something nearer to a very washed-out barrel-roll, which will require either a significant pitch up first (leading to low speed inverted at the top), or a very dangerous nose-low / high speed recovery.

Say again s l o w l y
2nd May 2006, 13:46
Fuji, for a bog standard steep turn, a HASELL check is unneccessary, it doesn't matter if you are going for 10 or 1000 degrees of heading change.

Lookout should be done before, during and after any manouever, negating the need for a HASELL check.

What does a HASELL check look for?

Height- sufficient to recover by a given height above ground.
Airframe- correct configuration.
Security- Loose objects, harnesses.
Engine- T's and P's, carb ht, mixture
Lookout- to clear airspace, especially that which is below you if doing Aero's or stalling/spinning.
Location (Clear of Airfields, Built up areas, Controlled Airspace, Cloud, Danger Areas.)

Most of this is irrelevant for a steep turn. The lookout is important, but I am suggesting that you do this automatically.
Can you give me a reason why all the other checks are essential to the steep turn exercise?

Fuji Abound
2nd May 2006, 14:47
SAS

Height - it is possible to end in a spiral or even a G stall and spin. Yes, I know unlikely, ham fisted agreed, but a new PPL might just do so, particularly on a type on which he was relatively new.

Airframe - what about practising a bit of slow flight before, possible to forget to put the flaps away. I have seen it done more than once.

Security - I agree not to much of a problem, but still a nuisance if the maps on the seat to your right end up on the floor.

Engine - always worth a quick check surely - it is a glance over the panel. I can think of at least one type where if you have a quarter of a tank or less of fuel you can end up with starvation issues.

Lookout - the most important. See the comment earlier on this thread by Rallye Driver.

Location - not a good idea to be doing steep turns in the same area to often. The fact is instructors and pilots will often do not one steep turn but put a few together one after the other.

Having read the posts I agree you can easily talk yourself out of a HASELL and might even be right to do so. Steep turns in proficient hands should not the slightest of issues and other than a good lookout, dispense with the rest. However it is 30 seconds out of your life, it is a good and quick nemonic, and it only needs to avoid a problem once to have proved its worth.

.. .. .. so why not?

Say again s l o w l y
2nd May 2006, 16:19
I am assuming that someone as ham fisted as could be imagined, shouldn't be anywhere near an aircraft and certainly wouldn't be stting their PPL test.

Height- anyone as incompetent enough as to stall out of a steep turn shouldn't be allowed to fly solo, same for spiral dive recognition and recovery. If you are going to be pushing the machine into max. rate and "nibbling the buffet" then this should be treated as an SSAT exercise and flown as such.

Airframe- whilst flaps will often decrease the allowable load factor on an aircraft, they usually don't do it to the extent where a steep turn should cause any problems, even a 60 deg AoB only has a load factor of 2. As to someone forgetting to put flaps up after a slow flight practise, see my point about height!

Engine- Hopefully you are monitoring the engine properly as part of your routine flying, why do you need any special checks? The engine isn't being put under any undue stress in a steep turn.

Lookout- Again, you should be doing this as per usual, common sense dictates you do what you feel comfortable, but I personally don't think anything out of the ordinary needs to be done. (Nor do any other FI's or Examiners I've ever worked with.)

Location- Again basic airmanship dictates your points already. Don't annoy the neighbours!

Seperate checks aren't necessary since as a competent pilot you should be doing all of this already.

If you want to do a HASELL, then go ahead, I think it's unneccessary however.

Fuji Abound
2nd May 2006, 17:38
S it AS

Yes but playing devil's advocate by the same definition why would you ever do a HASELL check.

Say you were doing a couple of aeros

- if you are competent there is no possibility of stalling or spinning

- you have of course been monitoring the engine properly anyway, and its injected so no worries there

- lookout and location - as you say you are doing that all the time anyway

- location - well you alternate where and when you go so we can ignore that one as well

In short just forget about HASELL checks all together.

No - surely any checklist is to ensure you have covered the essentials just because there has been plenty of cases of missing the blindingly obvious. Moreover it is very easy to judge the situation from your own pint of view - very current, flying regularly. What about the point of view of the PPL who is a bit rusty, thinks he will do a bit of aerial work before his GFT, hasnt done any steep turns or slow flight for well .. .. .. Ideal - probably not, does it happen - yes. A quick HASELL which he will remember from his training will cover the basics, re-ensure he is aware of some of the issues he should be thinking about and generally not do anyone any harm.

OK - I am biased. I had a couple of brilliant aero instructors - one a display pilot the other an RAF aero instructor. The very first lesson was tight turns, OK really tight turns, and we did a HASELL check before. We did a HASELL check after that before every session unitl it just became automatic. It takes less than 30 seconds I have timed it. I still find it just sets up the correct mind set before doing any excercises.

As you correctly say it is up to the individual. I respect your point of view but I hope I have set out clearly mine.

Fournicator
2nd May 2006, 18:11
How about a quick HASELL check every time we turn the aeroplane at all then?!? Might make circuit flying a bit busier.....

My own views echo slow's pretty much exactly, won't restate what he has done very comprehensively.

The oldest and most highly regarded Flying School in the world sees no requirement for HASELLs before steep turns!

DFC
2nd May 2006, 22:46
Fuji,

The problem with pilots doing extra checks is that they end up as words without actions.

Even a display pilot would not claim that every manoeuvre is without any posibility of not working out as planned.

Problem is it seems that for your aero sorte, the H - Height is simply that you start at several thousand feet. For many others, Height means start height, manoeuvre heights, top and bottom, minimum height over the top, end height, authorised minimum, obstacles and no go areas.

Location includes start point, display line, wind effects, end point, escape routes, avoid areas.

Lookout means checking that the display box (or practice box) is clear and is a continuous process not a "I'll do a 360 and if I don't see anything then I can blast away"!

A proper HASELL check is not simply a check of current situation but a review of future situations and limits.

Perhaps the most frightening thing about flying a steep turn is that some prat who is in the overtaking position will be doing a stupid barrelroll (thinking it is an aileron roll) and not paying attention to what they should be doing in that position. :(

The closest Airprox that I have had was when I was straight and level in good VMC at a constant height in a well contrasting aircraft. The other aircraft overtook about 30ft above the cockpit. Flying in straight lines is far more dangerous than manoeuvring. Movement catches the eye. Moving the aircraft round makes it more visible and if it is visible then pilots will avoid it!

Regards,

DFC

foxmoth
3rd May 2006, 09:53
An aerobatic maneouver is something over 30 degrees of bank according to the FAA
Fine, but most of us on this forum do not live in FAA land and I would not apply their standards just for the sake of it.
There was a steep turn article in "Loop" magazine last month and the writer there says your instructor may want you to do HASELL checks, I think that is how it should be left, it is up to the CFI of any particular school to decide the school standards (not done as much as it should), they will normally know the local examiners anyway. Most schools that I know do not teach HASELL before steep turns and no examiner that I know requires it, but I have no problem with any that do.

Fuji Abound
3rd May 2006, 11:28
Foxmouth - I am inclined to agree with your comments. If you feel happier doing a HASELL then do so, if not that is also fine.

DFC - thanks for your helpful comments. I still dont really understand the difference between a barrel roll and an aileron roll so I am off to look them up :) .

A case of block chop head I guess.

PS The real problem of any check is indeed doing it blindly. What we need to spot is that this thread is sbout what checks might be appropriate to steep turns. What checks are needed for an aero routine are another matter for another day.

PPS Steep turns dont really constitute an aero routine.

Norwester
4th May 2006, 03:33
Surely steep turns are essential in mountain flying, and you don't have time to carry out a HASELL check then. Am I right? I never have.

funfly
4th May 2006, 20:58
Surely -
It's not what you have to do.
It's what good airmanship tells you what you should do.
If you are going to practice an unexpected manouver, it's better to do an unrequired series of checks than not - after all you are not going to be doing it that often.

Say again s l o w l y
4th May 2006, 21:05
Not sure I agree 100% with doing unnecessary things, rather I like to what's required, when it's needed. It leaves you more time to do the important stuff, i.e in this situation spend longer looking out, rather than take time concentrating on the engine .

I remember being told by my advanced driving instructor about when to use indicators. I maintained that I should use them at all times, even if there are no cars about, whilst he told me that my lookout should be good enough that I should be able to tell when certain things are unnecessary.

Fuji Abound
5th May 2006, 07:34
Trevor Thom - The Air Pilots Manual

"Prior to practising steep turns, your Training Organisation may require you to carry out the pre-aerobatic "HASELL" check"

I am utterly convinced a thorough look around is vital. Perhaps there are other elements you might want to dispense with and obvioulsy training organisations differ in their requirements.

Perhaps I just like the comfort of running a quick and simple check before :) .

foxmoth
5th May 2006, 09:05
your Training Organisation may require

Again - the operative word there is may.:hmm: