How much would you work for?

[aces low]

A particularly pointed post about pilot terms and conditions (and their relevance to wannabes) has been made by African Skies on one of the Ryanair threads (Rumours and News).

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=139912&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

Should be compulsory reading for all wannabes looking for that first job and contemplating buying a type rating or working for peanuts (or both!)

[WX Man]

As usual it's quite difficult to extract the facts from the postings. If it is true that Line Captains won't be paid extra for taking on training duties, then:

1. it doesn't surprise me
2. why do they do it?
3. how do RYR get away with it?

As for us low experience people, I was thinking about this the other day. You won't be able to escape cr*p terms and conditions at this end of the market, because of supply and demand. The most basic law in economics: low experience pilots are in good supply, but there is not much demand!!!

Just have to hope for a lucky break. If that lucky break comes with getting my 737 hours in with f***ing SeamusAir, so be it.

Would MUCH rather sell my soul to Stelios, who's actually a rather nice bloke (I've met him, but then again who hasn't?).

[dreamingA380]

Wow,

Great post by African Skies. Us pilots have been making a rod for our own back.

I think it has been slowly happening over the last 10 years. But especially since Sept 11 compounded by our buoyant housing market making it easier for jobless pilots to release equity to self-fund type ratings.

The question is, where does this end?

[R T Jones]

I just hope the house price market cools and goes back to a reasonable value, because people think they can borrow as much as they want because hey, if i sell the house im coverd. If people would think a bit more, you should try and keep debt to a level that if you had to, you could pay off in 6 months WITHOUT selling your home. If everyone did that i suppose the econmy would collapse, so its up to us smart ones to do that and not be caught out when the house market does cool. just my 2 cents

[J32/41]

Just a quick question,

If someone was to offer you a job on a small turboprop like the King Air B200, type rating paid for etc. What would be the lowest you would work for?

Thanks

[LD Max]

Minimum, I guess it would be "Food and Lodging" at the going rate for the area, plus about £200 a week.

That would keep the wolves from the door until I could get something better.

Why? Have you been offered something? (Please don't say they want you to do it for the privilege of them paying for the type rating!)

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

Remember that the french riviera is very expensive :-)

[LD Max]

<chuckle>

... which is why I very carefully specified "at the going rate for the area".:p

[Phileas Fogg]

Minimum, I guess it would be "Food and Lodging" at the going rate for the area, plus about £200 a week.
That would keep the wolves from the door until I could get something better.
Why? Have you been offered something? (Please don't say they want you to do it for the privilege of them paying for the type rating!)

So you would only lodge in a guest house or hotel and expect the salary to include that expense and what it might cost you for eating out?

You wouldn't consider relocating to minimise such costs and to display a commitment to the employer?

Very strange attitude if one is trying to secure a first commercial position!

[rmcdonal]

Phileas Fogg I think LD Max was implying they provide suitable Lodging e.g. a flat, or a caravan.

[markflyer6580]

minimum wage:ok:

[wint3rmute]

Phileas Fogg is almost as bad as Send Clowns.

[Superpilot]

Just a quick question,
If someone was to offer you a job on a small turboprop like the King Air B200, type rating paid for etc. What would be the lowest you would work for?
Thanks

Obviously it would depend on the individuals own situation but to answer your question, around £16k pa would be the lowest I would accept for the simple reason that anything below that is 100% proof of the operator taking the piss out of the situation, considering my local bin men earn around £21k pa. I would also expect a minimum of 20 days leave and over time pay. But that's me!

[rmcdonal]

Just sort of out of curiosity, how many hrs do you have?

[MrMutra]

duir - I just turned down a job on a King Air 200 because I would be worse off than as a flying instructor!

Wow either thats a poor deal on a king air or else your have the best FI job. I didnt think it could be possible !

[LD Max]

Phileas Fogg I think LD Max was implying they provide suitable Lodging e.g. a flat, or a caravan.

Yes indeed... or at least the price of renting a room. Phileas Fogg Of course I'd relocate... I never suggested guest houses - although I trust the employer would cover any required expenses on stopovers etc.

Funny how some people are so ready to think the worst of eveyone else! :hmm:

Superpilot makes a good point too.:ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

LD Max,
That's a fair enough response however you did say 'lodging' which is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as 'a temporary place of residence. 2 (lodgings) a rented room or rooms, usually in the same residence as the owner' hence my apparent misunderstanding.

Mcdonal, you are suggesting that the employer provide accommodation which is not standard business practice when one is accepting a permanent position allbeit away from one's home domicile. Never mind self sponsored type ratings, how about self sponsored accommodation, every other profession, practically, pays for their own accommodation, why should pilots be so different?

And for one or two of the other smart ass's around here, ever been asked the question by an employer 'are you willing to relocate?', well guess what, if an employer asks that then you're supposed to answer 'yes'.

[rmcdonal]

Mcdonal, you are suggesting that the employer provide accommodation which is not standard business practice when one is accepting a permanent position allbeit away from one's home domicile. Never mind self sponsored type ratings, how about self sponsored accommodation, every other profession, practically, pays for their own accommodation, why should pilots be so different? I was more implying that the amount to be paid would cover the cost of accommodation, however I have been employed in some places that do in fact provide you with accommodation due to the lack of it being publicly available within a close proximity. For example if you work on a Cattle Station or Mining Site in Aus then your employer well no doubt provide you with somewhere to live on that Station/Site. Some places you can relocate to are so remote of anything it may take 5hrs to drive there from the nearest town. :eek: (but only 2hrs to the nearest pub :E ).
I do agree however if you want the job you have to move to it. Even if it is on the other side of the country…or several countries as the case is for the European pilots.

[LD Max]

I would only add that I used to work in the communications industry (QA Engineer), and as it was as large international company (Racal - now absorbed into Thales), at the time they would pay a quite generous relocation package.

Racal employees who were moved to work on contracts overseas often got Ex-Pat accommodation thrown in with the tax-free salary!

Anyway, "horses for courses" - I would have no objection to making my own arrangements if I had to move, but unless the accommodation was provided by (or through) the employer, then naturally the salary would have to be sufficient to support it.

Another thing to bear in mind is that in the UK, one is often tied in to a 6 or 12 month "Shorthold Tenancy" agreement when renting a flat. I for one would be reluctant to enter into one of those agreements until established in the job and at least past the usual 6 month "trial period".

Therefore short-term accommodation such as a B&B would probably be more appropriate initially, unless there was somewhere more informal I could crash.

Don't get me wrong, I can (and am prepared to) live frugally for a while.

LD Max

[JohnSmith747]

Hi there!
Reading the threads here in pprune I've noticed many people with the same problem:
frozen ATPL and less than 250 hrs = no job. Are there any airlines which hire people
working for them for free, let's say for one year or so just to get some flying experience
on a type and thensearch for a job somewhere else?
Anyone heard about such a case?
Cheers,
agente069

[dartagnan]

you should try to teach, or fly for skydivers, traffic watch, rescue in africa, charter on small planes, or rent an aircraft with a friend, and build some time...

[south coast]

flying for free is the most stupid thing poeple can do!

did you pay 50k pounds for your training to work for free?

it devalues your worth as a professional pilot.

dont do it!

[wingbar]

People like you, have caused this profession to fall into the slime pit, worthless, poorly paid eroded mess its in.

Do not , repeat not, work for free...

Would you go to Macdonalds, and ask to work there for free? - Just so you could get some experience of the fast food industry.....??????? - I think not.

Mind you though, if you become an instructor the pay is so poor, that by the time you deduct your cost of getting to a busy airport, and the rest, its virtually nothing....

I really give in.....

[Canada Goose]

Quite ! ......... and what exactly is one supposed to live off during this 'year or so' ?

Sadly the truth is .............. if such a scheme/airline ever existed there would be people desperate or daft enough to do it !

Nuff said .......

[endofeng]

'Will work for Free' (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=240173)

I think you will find all you are looking for in the above thread(T of E), which caused quite a stirr!

DO NOT WORK FOR FREE, do what we all had to do and persevere!:ugh:

There are jobs out there, flybe need 250 pilots over the next few years, Easyjet 450 etc..........Your time will come, keep current, get a job in aviation if possible ie ops, crewing, and IT WILL HAPPEN!

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endofeng:ok:

[pipertommy]

I know this is off subject!!!But you say and i`m glad to here airlines will be recruiting large numbers over the next few years which should STOP people feeling they have to work for free to get a foot in the door!I am curious as to why ie Fly-be are taking on approx 250(which is EXCELLENT news)is it expansion or people moving on or just a combination?

[pipergirl]

get yourself into ops or crewing or whatever and get yourself in the backdoor...then do some instructing or parachute dropping, towing etc on the days off and eventually you will get a decent break..

[VFE]

Don't get me started on people working for free..... or more realistically - people offering to work for free because not many companies/airlines would let someone work for free.

Some older guys instruct for free - this is a two-sided sword, they claim this 'gives something back' but the flipside is that it doesn't exactly help the low-houred, low income instructor situation.

Q: So who are they really giving something back to exactly?

A: A rich IT consultant doing a PPL for fun, and a fledgling flying club.

Certainly not aspiring commercial pilots.

VFE.

[Rude Boy]

Don't work for free. It ruins the market for the rest of us who actually need to make a living out of what we do. Please talk yourself out of any inclination to do so immediately. We've all had to struggle with that first foot in the door, unless you want to become very unpopular on this forum, you should just stick it out until something comes up. Don't work for free.

[endofeng]

pipertommy

Flybe plan to expand over the next few years, they are still taking reciept of new Q400's and have options on many more. At current the word is we are short of crews!

Last month 7 resigned, and the rumour is many more will leave throughout winter. The new EMB195 is due in service at the end of the month (14 on order), few from the Q400 will be lucky enough to fly her so many are leaving, which in turn frees up seats on the Q400, which might I add is a great aircraft to cut your teeth on!

Keep on trying Flybe, and other Turbo Prop operators. It's very nice to hear of guys getting straight onto the shinny jet, but don't expect to....Target the smaller operators, earn your time, the jet will come later, plus you get some pretty good flying on the turbo-props!

I would reccomend you get yourself a job in Ops, Crewing, anything within an airline, and there you can network! It is a shame ailrines do not have some kind of Apprenticeship system!

Good Luck!

ps If you know anyone in an airline, NETWORK!

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endofeng:ok:

[VFE]

Seems to me that Flybe have been "short of crews" for over a year now! The feeling one gets is that they'd sooner canx the odd flight due to understaffing rather than train up newbies to fly for them. Obviously some bean counter who gets paid far more than we're ever likely to get paid has calculated this to be the most effective course of action. They want experienced guys but as most are begining to realise - there ain't many unemployed ones about nowadays.

It's their groove and their move.

VFE.

[endofeng]

Quote; "they'd sooner canx the odd flight due to understaffing rather than train up newbies to fly for them"

VFE,

I don't think this is the case! There seems to be a lack of training providers ie TRI/TRE's due to many resigning, this seems to be the main problem with getting newbies on line!
From my understanding Flybe are and will continue to recruit both FO's and Captains. There is a large expansion of fleets and large numbers of leavers.

The opening of their new Sim in Farnborough should eleviate some pressure, but the general consensus is more pilots are needed. If the company goes down the road (which it seems to be) of reducing the newcomers (FO's)
salary to £23k and bonding them for £13.5 non reducing over 3 years, it would suggest they are happy to let FO's leave instead of giving them some insentive to stay. Over the next few years I would hazard a guess they will be seriously short of Captains as most FO's will leave. (It is managements view the future Captains should come from within, but if we all leave, there will be no within!)


It looks as if Flybe will become a training provider, or is that remain a training provider you decide!


----------------
endofeng:ok:

[mad_bob]

One of the problems with recruitment has been the lack of Q400 sim slots worldwide. Only 3 sims exist at the mo, number 4 i understand is opening at farnborough later this year. The new sim should ease the problem somewhat. Also a number of TRI/E`s resigned their positions a while ago through always being away in either Stokholm or Toronto/Seatle. Although they have been replaced its still taking time to get people in on initial training whilst keeping existing crews current OPC`s LPC`s etc.

All of this of course is not helped by the grown-ups at HQ Air Cadets (Exeter):8 Thinking outside boxes with big pictures apparently!

Things should start to pick up in recruitment, we are already short of crews and with more aircraft arriving just about monthly we do need more. The Dash, when it works is a good ship to cut your teeth on.

[dartagnan]

mad bob,

you are right, looks the curve angle of "pilots needed" is increasing every day...so my advice would be to wait and see (for people who can wait...)

maybe you will be the happy winner of the "you have been selected for an interview"... then "we would be happy to have you as pilot":ok:

[pipertommy]

Thanks for the reply Endofeng!Yes i actually want to spend time on props.I like the kind of flying they do,short sectors rather than watching the computers at work for hours.
Flybe sounds very promising to a wanabe!Hope to be sending the cv`s out next summer:ok:
Thanks again PT.

[VFE]

I don't think this is the case! There seems to be a lack of training providers ie TRI/TRE's due to many resigning, this seems to be the main problem with getting newbies on line!
Same difference then surely? If newbies were the way forward they'd offer better packages for TRI/E's, no?

VFE.

[endofeng]

VFE,

They are offering, or trying to offer better insentives to TRI/TRE's, but the bottom line is these guys are sick of spending weeks upon weeks in the sim. Remember these guys are incredibly busy keeping line pilots current with OPC/LPC's as well as training new guys!

They need more TRI/TRE's, as I already said, many have resigned!

MadBob,

Whilst in the sim a few weeks ago (Stockholm), I was told we were missing sim slots as we did not have the trainers, at an astronomical cost to Flybe!
I think we have the slots, but still not enough trainers.....I'm sure things will improve as new trainers are brought online, and the opening of Farnbourough!


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endofeng:ok:

[Craggenmore]

Excellent - A troll "work for free" thread turns into a "Flybe training problem thread" !

Big recruitment from GB/Easy/Ryan (more to add soon) which will run on and on into the new year (450 for Easy alone next year!) will suck many of Flybe's experienced FO's and possibly Captains - I know 5 at Flybe whose CV's are elsewhere right now with another 3 already out the door for aforementioned carriers. Pipertommy, if you enjoy short sectors and quick turnarounds, you might as well get paid £40k+ rather than 20k+ don't you think? Have you also seen some of the approach plates that Ryan use to let down into unheard of airports? Certain to put hairs on your chest.

Flybe can't take too many in-experienced FO's to cover these leavers and I believe that the CAA would stop Flybe from having such an unbalanced airline in terms of experience levels.

So, if Flybe have all these Embraer's arriving, who is going to fly them. Who is going to leave where to join Flybe? I'd love to know? :confused:

[endofeng]

Cragg,

Me too:ugh:

Anyway, back to the original thread.

Don't work for FREE!

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endofeng:ok:

[Dr Eckener]

I know of one such scheme, although it is even better for someone like you, as you can actually PAY to work. It is called a SSTR, with a payment for your line training also.

What's more, once you have done this, you can even work for a REDUCED SALARY for some airlines, maybe having to take home no more than £2-3000 for your first six months. Should be right up your street! :ugh:

If this is a wind up however, then well done - I have been wound!

[Dan 98]

I think this is a wind up. If you check JohnSmith747 is actually 71!!

[BlueRobin]

I think this is a wind up. If you check JohnSmith747 is actually 71!!

And posts=1. I think probationary is a good idea.

Still bought up a good debate about job erosion I thought. See the BALPA articel on profession vs occupation.

http://www.balpa.org.uk/24-25%20The%20Log.pdf

[scroggs]

This is the text of a post I made on the Ryanair thread about the politics of type ratings and paying to work:

To those of you shelling out for TRs and preparing to work for little or nothing, remember that what you get paid reflects what you think you are worth. The employer will pay no more than he can get away with. If you think you are worth nothing, then you will accept nothing and the employer will laugh his way to the bank.

A couple of years down the line, you will expect to get paid what you saw SFOs getting paid at your airline when you joined. After all, this is why you joined, right? But the employer now has you by the short and curlies. You are committed; you have loans to repay and you may be bonded as well. When the employer announces that, from 2008, FO's pay is going to be reduced by 20% for all those who joined in 2006 and later, where's your leverage? You just have to bite the bullet and accept it - you can't leave, you're too deeply in it to get out. You can't strike; your employer would sack you (you never joined the union...) and you'd be back at square one - and there are thousands of other wannabes crawling over each other to get your job. A few years further down the line, your employer offers you a command - but you've got to pay for the conversion training, you will have to pay any moving expenses, and the pay now offered is 20% below that of the guys a few years ahead of you. 'Sod that' you think, 'Time to go to Virgin or BA and get out of this particular pig sty'. You apply - and find that the terms you are offered are a great deal different - and a lot worse - from those offered to those who went before you. Why is that? Because the employers already know what you think you are worth - you've already proved it.

If you think this is an unlikely scenario, you're wrong. It's happened exactly like that in many airlines, here and abroad, over and over again. It's sometimes known as a 'B' scale, or a job realignment or whatever, but it comes as a result of large numbers of people accepting lower than previous remuneration for the initial jobs on the scale at times when jobs are scarce and applicants many. As a recent example, look at BA's new pilot contract with its pathetic pension arrangements. Market economics? Yes, but the market is subject to pressures from both employers and employees. You are not helpless victims of the market; your actions influence it.

Of course, if you had trodden the less expensive path of FI, TPs and so on, you'd be a few years older, a lot wiser, and a lot less in debt when you came to look for a jet job - and therefore the airline wouldn't have such a hold over you and you could apply more discretion in your choice of employer. But you'd have to ditch the 'I want it all and I want it now' attitude, and I doubt that many of you would do so until it's too late.

Now, I don't put all the blame on those at the bottom of the pile, though I do ask you to think seriously about the consequences of your actions. They are unlikely to affect me, but they will affect you and your peers. How can we retrieve the situation? Do what Ryanair and others have not done - get the existing pilots to work together in protecting the terms and conditions of all pilots (including new-joiners) in their company. That can only be achieved by strong, united and determined union representation. It's worked in Virgin. It's working now in easyJet. It's failing (but maybe retrievable) in BA. It could work in Ryanair, but it's not. Remember that once you get in.

Scroggs