Flying in the USA, with safety pilot / instructor

[wombat13]

I will visit Minneapolis this summer with wife and kids. I know I will not get sufficient time away from them to justify the hassle of obtaining a "permit to fly" (or whatever the FAA call it when they allow Brit's to fly there).

Will I be allowed to swan up to a school / club and get some taildragger training with an instructor on board at all times?

The Wombat

[IO540]

You will probably need the Visa/TSA stuff done.

[SkyHawk-N]

An I-20/M-1/J-1 visa is required for ALL flight training in the USA. If you enter the USA on the visa waiver program and they find out you intend to do some, you may (or probably will) be thrown out the country.

[MichaelJP59]

An I-20/M-1/J-1 visa is required for ALL flight training in the USA. If you enter the USA on the visa waiver program and they find out you intend to do some, you may (or probably will) be thrown out the country.

Is that true though even for differences training, such as conversion to another aircraft, or tailwheel? After all, even a BFR may involve an element of "training" and I know people who have done that on a visa waiver...

[fly_sd]

I personally think you do not need a visa or TSA clearance. If my memory serves me correctly you only need the TSA thing for private, instrument or multi-engine. Also I recall seeing something about not requiring a visa for any training that is less than 18 hrs/week. You can always call the TSA and find out to be sure (I think you can email them also). As for the visa - check the immigration web site at www.uscis.gov - has everything you need to know about visas there.

[SkyHawk-N]

Just found this ...

"On September 21, 2004, the FAA published its Interim Final Rule on alien flight training/citizenship validation. The interim rule went into effective that day. Under the Interim Rule, every person undertaking flight training for the issuance of a new certificate or rating or the addition of a new certificate or rating in an aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or less must prove his or her citizenship status. This includes foreign students as well as U.S. Citizens. Foreign students are required to complete a background check with the TSA. The interim rule transferred the responsibility for these background checks from the Department of Justice to the Department of Homeland Security and the TSA."

I was told by a US FAA flight school you still need an M-1, however, I never followed this up.


Here is an interesting web page on the subject ...

http://www.geocities.com/cfidarren/foreign.htm

[MichaelJP59]

That seems clear enough; if you are training for a certificate, you need a visa and a TSA check, otherwise OK.

I'm not sure how you can have an Interim Final Rule though as if it's Interim how can it be Final? :confused:

[fly_sd]

There's this useful link on the AOPA web site regarding the TSA. I believe the original rule was relaxed following pressure from AOPA. http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/

Not sure about training visa regs although that link seems to give useful info.

[SkyHawk-N]

Good web page. I think this is the bit! (not 100% sure it's very long!)


"This section applies to aliens who are planning on receiving flight training in the United States.

The requirements for obtaining any visa are separate from the requirements of the TSA alien flight training rule.

According to INS regulations, Title 8 of the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 214.2(b)(7), any alien who is permitted to enter the United States on a B-1 or B-2 visitor's status visa is prohibited from enrolling in a course of study. Such an alien must an either obtain an F-1 or M-1 non-immigrant visa from a consular officer abroad and seek readmission to the United States, or apply for and obtain a change of status under section 248 of the Act and 8 CFR Part 248. The alien may not enroll in the course of study until the Service has admitted the alien as an F-1 or M-1 nonimmigrant or has approved the alien's application.

Taking flight training without an appropriate visa could be a violation of your immigration status and could result in your arrest and removal from the United States; therefore, it is important that you have a visa that permits you to take flight training in the United States. If you do not possess the correct visa, or if you have questions pertaining to your visa status or the appropriate visas for flight training, please contact your local Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services at 800/375-5283 or www.uscis.gov or the State Department Consular Affairs Office for assistance. The AFSP will deny flight training requests from candidates who are present in the United States illegally or who do not have an appropriate visa for flight training. Fees paid for denied applications are not refundable."

It doesn't mention the visitors using the visa waiver program though.

[fly_sd]

With regard to the visa I was referring to the link you posted. I think the AOPA web page really does not give any info on the visa requirements - it's just saying "get the correct visa or you may get into trouble". I believe I saw the thing about 18 hours on the USCIS web site somewhere.

[flyboyike]

I will visit Minneapolis this summer with wife and kids. I know I will not get sufficient time away from them to justify the hassle of obtaining a "permit to fly" (or whatever the FAA call it when they allow Brit's to fly there).

Will I be allowed to swan up to a school / club and get some taildragger training with an instructor on board at all times?

The Wombat


Keep in mind also that a US instructor has no authority to issue you a taidragger endorsement on your UK license, so you really won't be "trained", you'll just be a passenger.

[MichaelJP59]

Keep in mind also that a US instructor has no authority to issue you a taidragger endorsement on your UK license, so you really won't be "trained", you'll just be a passenger.

I didn't know there was a formal CAA tailwheel endorsement, what are the requirements?

[flyboyike]

I didn't know there was a formal CAA tailwheel endorsement, what are the requirements?


I don't know if there is one for CAA, but there definitely is one for FAA, 1hr ground and 1hr flight as per FAR61.31. I just got mine a few weeks ago.

[englishal]

An I-20/M-1/J-1 visa is required for ALL flight training in the USA
Essentially, if you are to fly with an examiner, then you need a visa. If not then you don't.

A sign off by an instructor does not require a visa.

Also, if signed off in FAA land on an FAA ticket, this is also valid in JAA land.

[Whirlybird]

A year ago, a friend and I, both helicopter pilots, were in the USA, and decided to just do an hour each of helicopter flying with an instructor. We phoned several schools...and they all told us they couldn't do it any more. I don't remember exactly what we had to have, but since we were foreign, we needed something official, even for just the one flight. Eventually we found a small school which was prepared to bend the rules for us - we turned up, and each had a nice little sightseeing flight with a young instructor who enjoyed being paid for doing next to nothing. But apparently, strictly speaking, even that was illegal!

which is why I'm not naming either the area or the school, and I won't - sad that's it's got to this, isn't it?

[bladewashout]

I was in Florida last 2 weeks ago and flew with an instructor on my JAA license (R22). I have previously done training over there on an M1 visa but this time was on holiday with a visa waiver. My M1 has expired.

I am looking at getting an FAA license and bought a copy of the FAR's, and read in detail the stuff about visa requirements because I wanted to do some night training to add to my log book and then use to get the FAA license.

My understanding was very clear, the <12500 rules written above by Skyhawk preclude you from PUT (Pilot Under Training). However you can do P1/S (Supervised) because that's not training that (as a pilot) you would put towards a rating. I didn't look at it from the perspective of whether my JAA license allowed me to act as P1 in a supervised role without applying for a permit to fly (wish I had now!), just whether I could do training.

I declined any night training because I was concerned that when I sent my logbook to FAA for validation in the future, they would tie up visa applications with PUT time and I might have an immigration block in the future for violating my Visa waiver status. I did do a couple of hours P1/S for fun and a general brush up of skills in the US.

The flying school was fine with renting me the a/c and the instructor for this. They were also prepared to do PUT night training after I made specific enquiries about its legalities, but I think they were wrong and stuck to my own FAR interpretation!

BW

[fly_sd]

A year ago, a friend and I, both helicopter pilots, were in the USA, and decided to just do an hour each of helicopter flying with an instructor. We phoned several schools...and they all told us they couldn't do it any more. I don't remember exactly what we had to have, but since we were foreign, we needed something official, even for just the one flight. Eventually we found a small school which was prepared to bend the rules for us - we turned up, and each had a nice little sightseeing flight with a young instructor who enjoyed being paid for doing next to nothing. But apparently, strictly speaking, even that was illegal!
which is why I'm not naming either the area or the school, and I won't - sad that's it's got to this, isn't it?

I believe that "intro" or "discovery" flights are exempt from requiring a clearance as far as I'm aware. I suspect many schools do not really know the rules and gave this answer just to be safe. I've found that many schools do not really know the rules and if you go to a CFI or club that largely attended by citizens they really have no idea what to do in the case of non-citizens. I really found this a problem. Hopefully it will get better with time. I was the first non-citizen my instructor has trained (1 year after the rules came into effect) and he had a lot of learning to do himself about all this. I believe he has 2 more sudents now who are also non-citizens.

[StillStanding]

I'm in the US 4-5 times a year in different parts and just call local flight schools when I'm there and book some flying. My interest is just flying around easily for the few spare hours I might have, and an instructor acts as a guide, keeps me out of trouble and handles the wierd radio calls. I just explain I don't have an FAA licence (I only have an NPPL anyway) and will need an instructor along.
This has never been a problem (last time was February this year in Florida). I've never been asked for sight of a licence, passport or even a credit card before flying. I normally ask a friend or two if they want to sit in the back as well, again never been vetted or anything. All the instructors have been nice, asking about flying in the UK and how they can't believe we do dangerous things like overhead joins, etc.
I doubt that taildragger training as such will be legal as previous posts have suggested, but I was booked to fly a couple of hours in a taildragger late last year (cancelled due to poor weather) on the same basis as above, presumably as an experience.
So for those of you in the US on holiday, business or whatever, go flying and enjoy!

[fernytickles]

Wombat 13

Hope you are going to visit the Spam museum? There's a nice airport nearby and all the Spam you could ever want to eat :uhoh: Even garlic flavoured...

Also, if you end up at Anoka airport, you might come across Greg Herrick's aircraft collection, which is pretty impressive. Usually if you ask nicely, they let you have a look around.

And of course, if you are visiting at the end of July, its only a couple of hours to fly to Oshkosh - you'll enjoy the arrival procedures :ok:

[18greens]

I thought you could do joy rides but no training for licence issue.

Last year I was offered 'as many trial lessons as I liked but it could not be logged'. I had a go in a helicopter, a float plane and a big twin which was for hire, there was no issue.

If you do need a visa how do the Canyon sight seeing tours manage? Perhaps best just not to ask the question and don't mention you can fly.