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The Management
25th Apr 2006, 04:36
We have asked all our senior pilots who wanted to work beyond the age of 55 on this new extension contract and all but a handful said yes. The extension contract is B scale with no housing, schooling, travel fund, or medical benefits.

Bypass pay is not being paid as we keep a float of pilots on Cat B status (presently not suitable for command) no bypass while on Cat B status and the rest are uncategorized and you don’t receive bypass pay if you uncategorized. When you are Cat A’d (suitable for command) you usually have a course rather soon; stopping or reducing bypass pay significantly.

We are only giving the AOA a red herring when we say we want to talk about age 60. We are trying to keep the AOA busy while we are planning our next assault i.e. RP 04 is voted down. If this happens, we will have RP 07 ready to be put in your mailbox, and maybe along with another contract

This has been done in the past and has worked to some extend in ‘99 and I know with 100% certainty it would work to the full extent this time. If we don’t threaten you with a new contract, there will be another contract for employees post April 2007 i.e. for DEFO’s.

Age 60 is here, in case you didn’t notice.

Direct Entry First Officers

All current F/O’s will be offered bases and all other slots on bases will be filled by DE F/O’s from whoever has the right to work in that country. They will not be allowed to transfer to HKG until their command and will have to take a base when a slot becomes available when their command is finished. All F/O based slots will be filled and eventually all Command Based slots will be filled.

We haven’t quite figured out how we can hire DE Capt’s, but I am sure we have our think tanks on it. These new DE F/O’s can be given fast track commands by Cat B’ing Hong Kong based F/O’s and have these new DEF/O’s take a command to base sooner. This would be our 5-10 year plan and we can get these command-based slots filled.

RP04, we are already planning what will happen if this is voted down and I don’t think it will be in your favor.

As for a pay rise................ You will be extremely lucky to hold onto what you have.

You should be very angry at these new DEFO’s as they are lowering your COS, it is not our blame.
We love your senior pilots; they will work for virtually nothing. We wish we had more.

The Management

ALPHA FLOOR
25th Apr 2006, 06:42
Aint that the truth!

Print out this post and refer back to it in 5 years -

"DEVIDE AND CONQUER, rah rah rah!"

sizematters
25th Apr 2006, 10:14
Actually we HAVE figured out how to take D/E Captains........did you not see our advert in Flight International ??? Direct Entry F/O....Rapid Command ???

you see what happens is that we take experienced Captains and they join as an F/O then after they have completed ground school and a few other bits we say, "well done, your promoted to Captain" then stick them in the left hand seat for the simulator training until they check out......................

Of course, we are only doing this on the Classic at the moment as we have lots of 55 year old retiree's who we cycle from the -400 pax fleet to the -400 Freighter.........................thereby filling nearly all the vacant slots

lets face it the AoA is a joke, what with only about 49% membership, whats the secret one called, ah, yes, the Cathay Pilots Union, as well, the AoA is so busy trying to sort it's own problems out it couldn't negotiate it's way into a free concert without having to pay 3 years back subscriptions.................................

Can you imagine if I called the Automobile association and said, "hey, I'd like to join".......would they really say, "But you were a member in 1995, you'll have to pay 11 years worth of arrears of membership"

I tell you, talk about suffer from delusions.............................they ain't even on the bench, let alone in the game !!!!!

ALPHA FLOOR
25th Apr 2006, 10:28
Nice try trying divert this thread and attack the AOA to take the pressure off the 9th floor!

The AOA is in a royal mess, just where management want them to be - "but we are in constructive dialogue" so that should make us all feel 'better'.

Lets have another thread for the AOA's inefficiencies and leave this one for more pressing issues - getting reamed

sizematters
25th Apr 2006, 10:57
constructive dialogue ??? with who ??? Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck ??? How long have you been having these Disney Spells ???

If you want, "Constructive Dialogue" get the AoA to accept that CX is going to grow the airline by whatever means neccessary, age 60, DEFO's on the Pax fleet, inevitable.......................get something in exchange now rather than the usual, hang on for a worse offer...........................

petitfromage
25th Apr 2006, 15:50
SM...one assumes you have yet read the Growth Talks Update, 25th April?

mpflis
25th Apr 2006, 19:59
From an outsider looking in...what might the growth updates be?

BusyB
25th Apr 2006, 22:06
SM,
Your major complaint regarding the AOA is being voted on on the 9th. Then we'll see if you put your money where your mouth is.

I really wouldn't want to bet on that though.

Mr. Bloggs
27th Apr 2006, 06:51
Well, the AOA is only as strong as its members. I am not happy with the AOA, things need to change within before the AOA can move forward.

Seems the Senior pilots who complained B Scale were lowering the COS has no merit. As in '99, they just wanted someone else to fight their fight and someone to blame. We now see where the problem exists.

As for the new contract changes............. it is open for debate.

It seems the more we assist the company, the more profit share we procure.

Don’t believe we will see a pay increase and don’t expect a 13 month this year. Fuel prices are too high and we need to budget for the 10 month salary bonuses for our managers.

We have to help out where we can, so we may as well take it from the pockets of our junior pilots, in the form of bypass pay.

Hey it doesn’t affect me!

What happens if we allow the extensions on the lower COS? Where do you think the COS will tend to trend?

If it materialises by way of voting, their is no one to blame but you.

There is provisions in our contract to hire DEFO’s, please abide by the contract. Whenever a piece of the contract is not of their liking they wish to change it. What do you get in return, 30 days free reserve and a promise. I have heard those promises before.

When do you think it will stop? If it ever will.

It is time to say no, or forever be kneeling with your begging bowl. Seems most people don’t mind being on their knees.

Crunk
27th Apr 2006, 16:05
None of this negotiation makes any sense. The pilots already have a contract and could be perfectly happy to leave it as is. The company has the issue of trying to minimize its costs by eliminating bypass pay. This round of negotating has nothing to do with speed of training or crewing Cx planes and everything to do with cost cutting. Profitable growth of the airline is in everyone's best interest, but there must be give and take. If the pilots give up bypass, what do they recieve? If an S/O has to stay in the back seat for 2 more years, what is their benefit in the end?
Why does it take almost no time to train a direct entry F/O and so long to train an S/O to JFO upgrade? Maybe the training system can be revised to shorten these times and costs. Why can't new training Captains be made to replace those that retire instead of extending? Why should an extending Captain have to take a reduction in CoS to continue on to help the company expand faster?

I guess I just don't see the pilots being offered anything in exchange for having their career progression slowed by a few years.The Training Captains are already being extended. Eliminating bypass pay does not change the efficiency of the training dept. It only improves the companies profit margin, while slowing every pilots career.

jtr
27th Apr 2006, 23:15
They ordered the a/c, they have to crew the a/c.

In that time honoured Hong Kong method, I suggest they fling money at the problem till it goes away.


As a number of posters have said, we have a jim dandy contract thanks. Either leave it alone, or if you want to change it show us the wonga.

Roll on voting for RP06

Silent Running
28th Apr 2006, 10:34
Am I missing something! PW's 'growth' issue of Pravda starts off commenting on the need to address the age discrimination issue then blindly goes on to propose a significantly reduced package for anyone continuing beyond age 55. Duh!:confused:

Memo to Management re new a/c crewing, rp04, S/O's etc: you made your bed now you're going to have to lie in it. I for one am fed up with paying for the incompetence.:*

Turbo Beaver
29th Apr 2006, 00:58
If no one is being held back from upgrade, then the current contract will suffice and no bypass pay will be paid , so there is no reason to remove bypass pay from our contract.

If the airline is going to expand rapidly, you can go from 55 direct to 60. Does it matter if it develops in 2 year stages?

“In the absence of an agreement, bypass pay will continue, as it is a contractual obligation”. Leave it Status Quo.

If the Senior pilots want to work on lower conditions, well, they will do so, irrelevant of how is affects the COS, they always have. Makes it more difficult for the rest of the pilots at CX.

CX has to take care of the Senior Pilots C&T on extension by offering them and increased housing until 2009. Does not help the junior pilots or pilots reaching the age of 55 beyond 2009.

As said before, CX can hire DEFO’s tomorrow. They just have to pay year 1 F/O passenger wages and benefits. I don’t see a problem with that.

It will be a matter of luck if new hires obtain F/O on the pass or the freighters. CX understands they will never get another application for the freighter if they hire DEFO’s under the current contract. If a new DEFO is hired on pass pay and benefits, they will never receive another application for the freighter, unless the freighter F/O’ are at par with the pass F/O’s , hence the new UNIFIED pay scale for F/O’s, no money in freight you know.

Kick me if I am wrong, but did we not have a unified freighter/passenger pay scale, say.............. about 10 years ago? I must be mistaken.

In my opinion, it is now time for CX to deal with the mess they made 10 years ago. Does anyone need a history lesson?

If the F/O’s have a unified pay scale, then why not the Captains?

“These changes only apply to new crew” and “no-one would have their existing conditions changed against their will”. Basically, a new contract for new joiners and “against their will”, no it comes in the form “sign or be fired”.

As PW is true to forum, he continues to make threats to the crew body. Some things never change.

New S/O’s, join while you can because this rank will be eliminated in the very long term. You will be an S/O for a long time, but at least you have a CX number. It will be some time before a window seat becomes available. CX will promise a window seat, but we know how promises are kept here, in honor only. Ring any bells?

cpdude
29th Apr 2006, 03:55
no bypass while on Cat B status and the rest are uncategorized and you don’t receive bypass pay if you uncategorized. When you are Cat A’d (suitable for command) you usually have a course rather soon; stopping or reducing bypass pay significantly.

First of all, if you only receive bypass pay when your Cat A'd and this period is sooooo short, why is CX Management so interested in removing the bypass condition?

Secondly, how many pilots have lost bypass pay because they were either Cat B'd or uncategorized?:oh:

The Management
1st May 2006, 03:17
If the AOA fails to convince the pilot group that this is the best deal they can receive, I can ensure you, the one we have waiting is more dissatisfactory.

We will incorporate a whole new COS sent via DHL to your Family, as this is a Family Decision. You will have one month to think about it. If some do not wish to sign, we will terminate their contract. That will be a great motivator for the rest of the pilot group. We may do this with certain pilot groups first, so we can terminate some and the rest will line up.

We know Cathay Pacific is the best job in Asia and only a handful would refuse to sign. Those that don’t sign, we will label them as trouble makers and good luck flying your twin turbine in Papua New Guinea or your old Classic for Air Atlanta. Oh, they went under. Shame really. Good luck joining an Airline in your home country at the bottom of some list. You see, we own you.

We can gauge this by the amount of Senior Pilots wishing to sign on above 55 on lesser conditions. We may be paying too much on B Scales. We will have to look into this.

Housing, medical, pay, rostering, overtime, 13th month, profit share, etc. will all be revamped in the new COS.

From past experience, you must realise that if we what to change your COS, we will just do it. The Pilots will be upset for a year, but with a great propaganda campaign, we will slowly convince the pilot group it is a great deal. Pilots have extremely short memories.

You should listen to the AOA, If you don’t, we will no longer be able to negotiate with the AOA as they will not be representative of the pilot group and send out new contracts via DHL to all individuals. You know what we are capable of.

Cathay Pilots understand they have a good deal. We are paying better that Emirates, Singapore, China Airlines, ANA, and no one wishes to fly with Korean. We are still receiving many letters to join in Hong Kong regardless of the pollution, so we are realising that we don’t have to pay for a premium for Hong Kong.

With these new DEFO’s on a base, Unified pay, we can reduce our costs significantly. When we save that much money, you know who obtains the benefit.

With fuel prices no longer a joke, we will find it hard to pay the 13th month this year. You will only be upset for a year and of course none will leave.

Please give us your feedback, we want to know what you think. Through the feedback, we can correlate what is the minimum you will accept in the new contract. We will add some meaningless benefits and launch a propaganda campaign to make it sound significant and force a new contract on you.

Either you give up bypass pay, allow DEFO’s and new working conditions beyond age 55 or we will do what we have to do.

The Management.

Nullaman
1st May 2006, 03:55
Management.
You are not a million miles from being spot on.
I will buy shares in DHL now ....I might as well make money somewhere

Rainwater
1st May 2006, 06:05
Currently, a North American Freighter F/O on 4th yr pay has a base salary of $81,000. After 3-6 months at this wage (depending on length of intitial training) is able to transfer to the pax fleet on a North American base with a minimum basic salary of $113,160. An increase in pay of $32,160, not to mention the additional 15.5% of the increase. Under the new unified F/O scale the same First Officer will take a pay decrease to what appears to be $79,000. This is completely insane and unfair! It's below the current freighter scale!

cpdude
1st May 2006, 08:42
Management,

Go for it! Might be the best deal in Asia but who say's we have or even want to work in Asia? I eagerly await my DHL package so I can send back a big NO!:}

Fr8t M8te
1st May 2006, 10:20
ASL pilots and flight engineers are in no way affected by this

I beg to differ. They will inevitably lose the fixed differential between the ranks if the F/Os 'float' upwards.

Bend over F/Es and prepare to 'accept' the 10 year bat.

Anne Naunimous
2nd May 2006, 01:08
Unified F/O pay scale...
so, in the future, after working 3 yrs as S/O, a newly upgrated F/O whishing to go on a base will now have to work at freighter pay because there was DEFOs hired on the pax fleet?? And it would not be until the 6th year as F/O before the pay scale reaches the current level (not 4 yrs like the text in crew news would lead you to believe)...that's 9 yrs from joining!! And that's not even considering the fact that it might take longer than 3 years for the current S/Os to upgrade with the proposed new conditions.....and they say it's not affecting current crews???

Makes me wonder if I made the right choice, even though I remain optimistic since negociations are still ongoing...:confused:

Kitsune
7th May 2006, 05:45
Fr8tM8te..I thought they only used the bat to push the pineapple up further......:uhoh:

Re-entry
7th May 2006, 18:24
If the AOA caves again, then surely disbanding is the only option. It's every man for himself. oh same as last 15 yrs. How far can they push it before nobody comes here anymore?

Team America
8th May 2006, 00:27
PW is 55 this year, wonder what sort of package he will be extending on :hmm:

bored
15th May 2006, 11:24
boys, boys, boys.......we're in the box seat as far as future pilot shortages in the region go.
We(the AOA, or at least I thought they were supposed to be representing us!) don't even need to be talking to the company at the moment, we have a perfectly good contract(well, not quite, I admit!) that we can sit on until they come to us with something decent.
You bet your ass we'll end up worse off in some way through growth(get screwed again!) talks. Whether its a permanent bunch of conditions for extension, DEFO's or rostering, who knows.
Its just not in our interest to talk about anything right now.
Pressure on pilot numbers in the region over the next couple of years will create a supply and demand environment that will benefit all of us.
Our fun loving patriots over the border need something like 2000 pilots a year for the foreseeable future and can only train about 10% of that, Vietnam and Korean have just increased the expat contract pay and conditions on offer, very few new commercial pilots in Australia(only about 150 last year!!)
The best thing we can do right now is just SHUT UP!!!

Nullaman
15th May 2006, 11:33
The best thing we can do right now is just SHUT UP!!!


Gotta be the most sense I have heard on this thread thus far

N

VR-HFX
17th May 2006, 12:36
Repeat again...there is no need for 60.

Problem is those that want to stay till 60 aren' the ones the company wants to keep because they don't have a life.

I think we have set a new all comers record in April by CAT-B'ing everyone that went thru command training. What a waste.

With averages running at 40% of cadets and 20% of DE's being failed on first goes, we are a disgrace. How one describes April, I have no idea.

All the bickering about T&C's and the company is piddling millions against the wall....

If only Philip had half a brain he may be able to comprehend this:ooh:

Al E. Vator
18th May 2006, 02:08
And another thing!:= (sorry if it hijacks the thread but it is related).

There's currently an IFALPA ban (however useful or not that may be etc) on Direct Entry pilots for the 747-400 over at Dragon Air. The management there are trying to bypass/undermine their own guys by hiring off the streets. Just like us a few years back but the Dragon pilot union by all accounts seems to be handling it OK so far.

Rumour has it that a four very well-off, post 55, ex-CX drivers are looking at, or will take these positions to generate a little more beer money (it's a truly crap contract by the way).

I may be missing something but far more than for our own recent events (i.e. GA guys being involved in our inhouse dispute), isn't this sort of behaviour by financially independent pilots who had otherwise finished their careers the most appalling form of Scabbing? Should they not be ostracized as pariahs for undermining their peers' livelihoods for their own selfish desires?

Yes I am probably living in a dreamland and I know decency is an old-fashioned concept nowdays and the 'greed is good' mentality prevails but do these former colleagues of ours have no morals whatsoever?

Perhaps to you 'gentlemen' the taste of those beers will be as distasteful as your actions.

sizematters
18th May 2006, 13:23
Ah, yes, looks like the Dragonair guys have learnt a thing or two from the Cathay guys.......................very sensible, get someone else to do your fighting..................IFALPA ban..................get real people, everyone has the god given right to withdraw their labour in support of their cause, justifiable or otherwise......................But to ask someone else to withold their labour to support you.............................

something about Pi##ing into the wind ............................and what compensation is the Dragon Pilots Union going to offer people for refusing to take the -400 jobs???

Moral indignation is all well and good....................but it don't put food on the table....................................

6feetunder
18th May 2006, 13:50
So Al, if you are calling some retired CX guys scabs, what does that make the some of the pilots you just let into your own union?

Those who live in glass houses...

Al E. Vator
18th May 2006, 23:41
Above are good points and hopefully they will not repeat our mistakes.

However, get it straight - as sizematters says - we made the mistake of trying to get GA guys to do our fighting for us. The Dragon managers however are looking for direct entry Captains. A big difference.

Sizematters you are wrong however: 'Moral indignation is all well and good.....but it don't put food on the table'. The classic melodramatic words of the self-serving - a scabs favourite sentence. 'Wo is me I must feed and clothe my poor children....after I buy the new Porsche of course'.

There are any number of jobs out there now for 747 captains without having to undermine colleagues' attempts to better their terms and conditions.

My point is not about putting food any table it is about beer money for a few selfish old A-scalers who don't give a toss about anybody else and are happy to screw the Dragon guys for their own ends.

Mr. Bloggs
19th May 2006, 02:40
I cannot genuinely see “4 very well off SENIOR Cx 744 Pilots” breaking the Dragonair IFALPA ban.

You must be misinformed. They have more integrity than any pilot group I know or have known.

sec 3
19th May 2006, 18:59
If guys want to work past 60,it's their bussiness, nobody elses. When you reach that ripe old age wouldn't you want the choice? These guys have paid their dues and aren't intentionally trying to displace anybody or take their money. There's lots of jobs and cash out there for everybody.:cool:

Al E. Vator
20th May 2006, 00:13
If guys want to work past 60,it's their bussiness, nobody elses

Yeah right!

And if a guy wants to break a strike it's his business and stuff everybody else.:ugh:

We're talking about guys who have ALREADY RETIRED with their millions, who want to screw their young colleagues at Dragon for pure greed. And that's nobody else's business?

Extraordinary and indefensible selfishness.

Five Livers
20th May 2006, 03:31
What a load of absolute uninformed tripe Al.E.Vator!

Do you know about the personal circumstances of the individuals who are allegedly applying? In at least one case you don't or you wouldn't be trotting out this clap trap about greed. Why don't you try dealing in facts rather than emotional fiction?

SMOC
21st May 2006, 00:16
DEFO slots will be filled by QF furlos! at least they get to stay in AUS.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=226825

19weeler
23rd May 2006, 21:24
Alpha Floor.
"constructive dialogue"???
Is this the same constructive dialogue that brokered the 49ers deal?
What a joke!!!!