Best method of approach and landing a PA28-180 Cherokee

[RoosterBooster]

Hi ya,

I wonder if anyone can help me in this rather awkward situation. I converted to a PA28-180 Cherokee from a C-172 about a year ago. I originally managed to sort it reasonably well but have not been flying for a few months. I now don’t seem to be able to land it confidently. I just can’t seem to flare at the right time. I think I’m not looking at the right place to judge my height etc.

Can anyone suggest the best way to set up an approach and perform a good safe landing on a PA28-180 Cherokee. Feel free to mention the approach speeds you’re using etc.

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Thanks guys.

RB

[Say again s l o w l y]

Approach speeds come straight out of the book and from your finger-tips.

The PA28 181 manual states that you should use 66kts with full flap on approach. This works fairly well, but is sometimes too high depending on a/c weight. Touch down should be around 55 ish Kts, but don't spend time staring at the ASI on landing!

As per usual, most landing problems are created by excessive speed and/or not shifting your gaze far ahead enough when trying to judge the flare height.

[Lister Noble]

I am a student nearing the end of my course ,learning in PA28-180
From the Piper pilots handbook
Flaps up approach speed 86mph-75kts
Approach speed first notch flap 83mph-72kts
Second notch 80mph-69kts
Full flap 77 mph-67kts
Flare reduce power
Hold Off and Cut power
We are taught to use 85mph and 80 mph,although slightly slower may be OK.
Seat height has an effect on correct visibilty for good landings,so maybe try using a cushion etc.

Good luck
Lister:)

[RoosterBooster]

Nice one guys. The cushion sounds a very good idea. I did think that perhaps the vis wasn't all that good. I'm 5ft6 so not exactly tall!!??!

Keep um coming.

RB

[EastMids]

The following was suggested to me by a CFI many years ago, although has been frowned upon by some (although not all) instructors I've flown with since;

I found that flare and landing in both PA-28 -161 and -181 was helped if, starting with the a/c trimmed correctly for the approach, a little nose up trim was wound in on short final. It helped as it changed the "pull back" at the flare which can sometimes be a little heavy and thus ungraceful into a gentle "reduce forward pressure". This "technique" requires light forward pressure on the column over the hedge, reducing it in the flare. HOWEVER, some may see this as an unwise thing to do because if you let go of the column after you've up trimmed the arrival won't be healthy for you or the aeroplane, and if you trim nose up too much the approach won't be pretty either.

For whatever reason, I didn't find I needed to do this when I flew C-172s, maybe because the stick forces were slightly lighter.

A

[aw8565]

I would obviously recommend going with the more accurate figures posted previously but for comparison I'm PPL student in PA28-161 and use;

90kts in the circuit
Base leg 2 stages of flap and descend at 80kts for the turn to final
final leg flown at 75kts reducing to 70kts short final then eyes WAY down the runway for landing, throttle closed, waiting for (in my case) THUMP BANG screech.... (swearwords) from instructor and/or myself.

And don't forget carb heat on during downwind checks then off again before landing. I do...!

[Johnm]

Are you flying an old slab wing Cherokee 180 or a more recent Archer PA28 181. The wings are entirely different and the 181 (like the warrior 161) will float forever if you approach too fast and the old 180 ones fly like a brick if you approach too slowly.

The key is to follow the numbers in the Handbook and to look well ahead and use peripheral vision to judge the flare height. By the time you flare you should have passed the Threshold at the correct speed and be looking out of the window to monitor the attitude and sink rate, a little blip of power if the sink rate feels too fast may be required but otherwise it's flare and slowly pull back the stick until it stops flying and drops (gently ) onto the runway!

[funfly]

I had a problem with my own aircraft just after I bought it and I just could not get it down OK.

Lots and lots of advice from others including here on PPPPPPrune.

Best advice eventually from an old timer: "stop overloading your brain! stop worrying about it! just fly the circuit, pretend it's a 'normal' aircraft and land the bloody thing".

He then took me up and got me to do just that!

Problem solved.

However I can't resist one bit of advice - The more accurate your approach the better, and easier, the landing.

[Glasgow_Flyer]

I just can’t seem to flare at the right time.

I tend to land by watching the ground coming up to the r/w threshold.

It gradually stops looking like a fixed point and starts coming towards you - as soon as it starts rushing towards you (ground rush) pull back and flare - this works fine for me, so long as the approach and VAT speeds are ok.

Would be interested to hear what you think...

[camlobe]

Although I own a PA28-180E, I haven't flown it for a while (on rebuild following some numpty trying to land with a 25kt tailwind!!! I do not jest).

Although I fly a wide range of aircraft, I am only a lowly PPL, so please feel free to disregard anything I may give as advice.

Like EastMids, I to have found that a little bit extra 'nose-up' trim in the slab-wing PA28's on approach seems to make all the difference. This also seems to work well on the TB range, and on DR400's. All these types employ a stabilator (all-moving horizontal control surface with anti-servo tab).

Comments?

[VNAVSPD]

For the PA28 181, I find the following works pretty well for me.

1) Fly the circuit at 2000rpm - 90kts

2) On base leg, set carb heat to HOT. Reduce power to 1500rpm. Check that the speed is well into the white arc, and select 25deg of flap. Pitch down to maintain 80kts

3) On final approach select full flap. Reduce speed to somewhere between 65-70kts depending on weight. Select carb heat to COLD.

4)As you pass the threshold, at about the height of a double decker bus, close the throttle. Don't over flare, allow the aircraft to sink into the ground effect, and each time she goes to "sit down" apply back pressure to maintain a nose-up attitude.

5) After touch-down maintain the back-pressure to keep the weight off of the nose-wheel.

I find that it's very easy to land this aircraft 'flat'. If you're light, and the runway is short, you really don't want any more than 65kts on the approach. Finally, don't over flare. If you flare too high, she will decelerate quickly outside of the ground effect, and will sink rapidly!

[aerobatic_dude]

I've only flown a Cherokee 140, not the 180. But the instructor said that once you closed the throttle that it took on the gliding charchteristics of an elephant. He advised me to land with an extra 100 - 150RPM on provided you've got the runway to spare. Worked wonders for me. Seat height is a big thing for me. I'm 6ft and if the seat is too high, I tend to start flaring off out somewhere around the 10mile mark. Get your seat position, speed, power settings right. It'll all work out.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Don't forget to raise the adjustable seat to it's highest position before you get in.

(I'm also 5ft 6" and am only just happy in a PA28 without a cushion, and then only with the seat adjusted right up).

G

[slim_slag]

Morning roosterbooster,

As others have said you need to nail the approach speed, and I haven't been in an Archer for a few years now but from memory crossing the fence at 65kts with a full load is about where it's at. It's in the POH, and depends on several factors which you can find out by reading any text book. Don't be listening to anybody who tells you to cross the fence at faster than the recommended speed unless you have gust factors etc. If you want to ignore the book you will find you get better landings coming in slower rather than faster.

As for the flare, have a look at this thread and take note of what Chuck Ellsworth (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74587) has to say.

I had quite a bit of problem with landing spamcans in the early days, used to find myself veering off the runway towards the runway lights which was quite a shock. Turned out my sight picture was rubbish and although I thought I was coming in straight down the centreline I was actually in a sideslip. So you might have a decent instructor have a look at that. A tailwheel conversion is also excellent at sorting out landing problems.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Don't be listening to anybody who tells you to cross the fence at faster than the recommended speed unless you have gust factors etc. If you want to ignore the book you will find you get better landings coming in slower rather than faster.


I just wanted to emphasise that point - which which I agree wholly (so far as PA28s are concerned anyhow).

G

[Mixed Up]

If you can't see the gravel or individual blades of grass, you're flaring too high.

I guess this won't work for Jumbo pilots.

[Gargleblaster]

RoosterBooster, I funnily enough have the opposite problem !

I learned to fly in a 140. I've owned a 140 and flown tons of 140, 160, 180, 181s and find them so easy to land. Real greasers almost every time, also on bumpy grass strips.

For a year I owned a C172 and never really got to landing it properly.

I then transitioned back to Pipers. First flight in a Piper in 12 months and made the most beautyful landing !

I know there's something wrong with me and I should probably seek some professional help :-)

But I generally find the Pipers much more responsive and lighter to handle than the Cessnas. An instructor I know says the control cables in Cessnas are made of rubber bands :-)

Anyway, my advice to you is to get an instructor to fly with you. I took my Night VFR qualification in a Cessna, that helped me.

[Confabulous]

I'm a student pilot and fly the 140, and I've never had any trouble as long as I let my gaze slide down the runway to the opposite threshold just before and during the flare - peripheral vision doesn't work as well when you're focusing less then 15 feet away, i.e, at the runway just in front of the nose.

[A and C]

One of the problems that people have with Pipers is that the "all flying stab" fails to fly at high angles of attack and the pilot starts to loose pitch authority in the final part of the flare ending in a firm landing.

The reason for this is that with a lot of fuel and only crew in the front seats the C of G is right at the forward limit ( on the PA34 it is easy to go outside the forward limit). I would suggest that loading the aircraft with the C of G in the center would be a good start if you are new to this type, this would give you all the pitch authority that you need in the landing phase.

Some years back the editor of a well known flying mag in the UK gave the PA34 a bad press for firm landings with full flap and only crew in the front seats............. the aircraft was undoubtedly outside the forward C of G limit.............. not much of an airtest to print !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[flyboyike]

The reason for this is that with a lot of fuel and only crew in the front seats the C of G is right at the forward limit ( on the PA34 it is easy to go outside the forward limit). I would suggest that loading the aircraft with the C of G in the center would be a good start if you are new to this type, this would give you all the pitch authority that you need in the landing phase.



We used to address that issue by flying with a sandbag in the baggage compartment.

[englishal]

I've never had any trouble as long as I let my gaze slide down the runway to the opposite threshold just before and during the flare
That is the secret to a good landing in any light aeroplane. Once over the fence, forget everything else, keep your eyes looking right down the runway and you'll make a good landing. This is true day or night......

[neilmac]

Agree with EnglishAl , focus down the runway. Im 5'3 and never used a cushion in 12 years so size shouldnt matter.............where have I heard that before?

[mark147]

Definitely have your eyes looking down at the far end of the runway. Also, the most obvious clue to your height and rate of descent in the flare is actually in your peripheral vision: whilst gazing into the distance, get your brain to pay attention to the overall picture, particularly what's going on at the sides: if you do this you'll get a very clear impression of the ground, hangars, buildings etc. coming up to meet you and will be able to judge the flare much more accurately than if you try to focus on the far end of the runway.

Mark

[Confabulous]

For perspective, I'm 5'6 and haven't have any problems so far. My own opinion is that while peripheral vision may not be able to judge height with accuracy unless you're fairly experienced, it can judge rate of change very easily, and that's what I concentrate on.

For instance, my last approach was fairly high until my instructor pointed it out. I pulled off a fair bit of power and just watched the picture until it looked reasonable (not so high that I'd need to pitch down, and not so low as to get behind the drag curve), then put most of it back on. To be blunt, I have no idea what speed I landed at, nor rate of descent, or anything except the picture I was looking for.

During every approach I'm reminded of Ernest K Gann's comment - 'Aim us at the runway, then hold everything until you feel us hit' - and that's what I do. Makes it seem easy.

One other thing I learned last time - if you think you're going to miss a runway turnoff on rollout, DON'T stamp on the brakes! :uhoh:

Personally I write down every thing I missed or learned during the flight immediately after so I remember it.

[RoosterBooster]

Thanks Guys for your comments and helpful advice. I've got a flight during this coming weekend, so will try out some of your comments/suggestions.

One thing that has come to light is that I don't look in the right areas.

Cheers once again.

RB

[On-MarkBob]

It is a fact that for the FAA Type Data Certificate for light aircraft, each aircraft type must satisfy the administration that it can be trimmed and landed 'hands off'. Trimming is the answer here. If in doubt as to whether or not your aircraft is trimmed, let go for a bit and see what it does. If you can't land after proper trimming then you are probably messing with it too much. It already knows how to land, because it has been demonstrated as such, you just need to give it a wee touch at the runway to make it a smooth and straight one!
As for the approach, once you are trimmed, control your height and rate of decent with power.

[Sunfish]

Just be a little careful with the trim please so that you don't kill yourself in a go around. I strongly suggest that you leave it trimmed for your 75 kt approach or whatever the speed in the POH is.

That way if you go around, the control column push forces are going to be manageable. If you fiddle with the trim on final to avoid having to pull back so hard to keep the nose up, some of you might easily find that you are not strong enough to push the nose down when executing a go around - with predictable and fatal, results.

[Final 3 Greens]

You want it trimmed for the right speed - 75KIAS over the fence for a PA28 is crazy, although I dont think that Sunfish means this literally.

ÍIRC the final VRef for a -181 is 63KIAS AT GROSS (this is important) and if you exceed this speed you will floooat.

My landing technique in PA28s is to trim for VRef and then try to keep the aeroplane flying in the flare.

It will land when ready and some will be greasers, some will not. All will be safely within book performance and surely this is the point?

And they are very easy to fly and land :-)

[Sunfish]

Final three is right, but thats not what I meant. I trim for 75 knots which is the recommended approach speed and leave it there. The Piper Arrow POH actually states you should do this and I think the Warrior POH does the same (or is it 70?).

Vref for the PA28's I fly is 63 knots, and that is what you should come over the fence with, pulling back a little on the column to get to that speed.

Its important to stick with the POH speeds because matter such as elevator authority, the ability to retract flaps without stalling if you have an engine failure on final, control column forces in the event of a go around, and probably a heep of other stuff I can't remember, all depend on the speeds and attitudes you adopt.

To put it another way, I guess you could approach and land at Vs + 1 Knot, but if anything goes wrong.........

[Will Hung]

Just out of interest and going "off thread" a tad, do the big boyz land with power on ?

[Genghis the Engineer]

You want it trimmed for the right speed - 75KIAS over the fence for a PA28 is crazy, although I dont think that Sunfish means this literally.

ÍIRC the final VRef for a -181 is 63KIAS AT GROSS (this is important) and if you exceed this speed you will floooat.

My landing technique in PA28s is to trim for VRef and then try to keep the aeroplane flying in the flare.

It will land when ready and some will be greasers, some will not. All will be safely within book performance and surely this is the point?

And they are very easy to fly and land :-)

65 knots for a -181, 64 knots for a -140, 63 knots is for a -161 (assuming that any of us can peg a speed that accurately!).

POHs recommend an initial approach speed of 75 knots for a -181, 74 knots for a -140 and 70 knots for a -161.


Most of my PA28 hours are in -161s (about 90 hrs on type), and I've found that trimming with 2nd stage of flap to 70, then holding a maximum of 63 on the yoke (reducing to about 58 lightweight and solo) and selecting full flap over the hedge (or a bit earlier if high) works for consistently neat landings.

What one should never do imho on any PA28 is approach fast, save in very gusty conditions onto a very long runway.

G

[FlugWeasel]

Just out of interest and going "off thread" a tad, do the big boyz land with power on ?

Im 6'3" and land my PA-28-161 at 70kts on base 63kts on final with 3 stages flap .....

... oh, I see, not what you are asking. Couldnt resist, sorry.

The general technique for a turbine engine is to keep a fair bit of power flowing and compensate by increasing the drag with spoliers,speed brakes etc. The theory being that when you need power to go around you dont want the lag in getting full power as you attempt to push the throttles through the front window.

[FlugWeasel]

65 knots for a -181, 64 knots for a -140, 63 knots is for a -161 (assuming that any of us can peg a speed that accurately!).
POHs recommend an initial approach speed of 75 knots for a -181, 74 knots for a -140 and 70 knots for a -161.
Most of my PA28 hours are in -161s (about 90 hrs on type), and I've found that trimming with 2nd stage of flap to 70, then holding a maximum of 63 on the yoke (reducing to about 58 lightweight and solo) and selecting full flap over the hedge (or a bit earlier if high) works for consistently neat landings.
What one should never do imho on any PA28 is approach fast, save in very gusty conditions onto a very long runway.
G

Not sure I agree on the caution on approaching fast. That is exactly what you need to be thinking about.
If it is gusty and strong you should consider using less flap or a flapless and flying a faster final to match new stall parameters. You will need to use more runway of course.

Strong gusty crosswind is comfortable up to the demonstrated maximum 17Kt if you are careful about the choice of flap. Lots of dipped wing and land upwind wheel down.

[mad_jock]

Its almost exactly the same as your PA28. But you don't want the stall warner going off when you touch down. So you tend to be 10-20 knots above your stall speed. but its all factored into the speed books so you don't have to "think" about it" Just land it at the speeds given and it works.

The points of reference for vision are the same.

The machine obeys the same laws of physics.

The only real difference is that the constant speed props have a tendency to disk at low touque settings and if you have just picked it up out of the hanger and the settings arn't to great they can go into a failed engine mode which cycles them towards feather and back which is a bit of a shock when it first happens. A wee adjustment of what they call the flight idle torque and all is well. So if you go back to flight idle you can get a non-linear increase in drag due to the props turning into air brakes. Which to be honest can be very handy at times. Its pretty easy to spot a TP getting driven into the runway instead of flared to land. The plane will have a very flat attitude with hardly any nose up (a note to add if the aircraft is doing circuits it could just be the examiner doing a Flap 0 which is very flat and fast). A tp which is being landed at the correct speed will have a very similar attitude to A PA28.

A bit like GA there are many theorys about the best method and some people will say leave a bit of power on. Which just makes it easier for them to get a smooth landing but shoots all the performance data to hell. And others which I include myself in who reckon that you don't need to have power on to make a smooth landing. As with all aircraft if you hit the manufactures numbers on the nose and don't try to do anything fancy it will set you up for the potential for a good landing. Which will be within performance limits and is actually easier to control than a high energy drive the thing into the ground type of landing.

And the C172 pilot having problems, I have flown about 4 different makes/ models of C172 with various attachments to the wing tips. I think it was an F with the scoops. It was a bitch to land until I sussed it after about 150 hours.
The thing was nigh on impossible to stall clean or dirty the ASI read zero when it eventually did go, and even then it didn't really do anything apart from stop holding height and start mushing towards the ground.

The trick seemed to be not to let it to land until the back end "sat down" There was a point when there was a noticable increase in elevator input in the flare and the back "sank" only after you feel this could you let the wheels touch the deck. If you touched down before this it would bounce and yaw and do all sorts of horrible things before dropping out of the sky. Wait to long after the back sank and you were deposited on the ground with very little choice in the matter.

MJ

[VNAVSPD]

The general technique for a turbine engine is to keep a fair bit of power flowing and compensate by increasing the drag with spoliers,speed brakes etc. The theory being that when you need power to go around you dont want the lag in getting full power as you attempt to push the throttles through the front window.

mmmm, (apart from the 146 and the F100) I'm not sure that I've heard of speedbrakes being used on final approach to correct speed. They should either be down, or armed! I think the technique in larger aircraft, is to "fly" the aircraft onto the runway, as opposed to "holding off". I would imagine that in an aircraft such as the 737, approach power can be maintained until about 10-20ft RA, and then the throttles smoothly closed???