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Oxeagle
19th Apr 2006, 15:14
Hi guys,
Leading on my from previous thread about purchasing an aircraft, myself and a couple of other trainee pilots have decided that we want to do a group buy of an aircraft to complete our PPLs and hour build in. We are looking to spend in the region of £15k - £20k for a 2 seater (or 4 if its feasible), something like a Cessna 150/152, Piper Cherokee or a Robin ATL, though we are open to suggestions :) . This in itself isn't too much of an issue; we've worked out all the costs, and its economically doable - the problem is administering the group. What we would like to know is:

1. What is the best way of going about setting up the group i.e. just an agreement between us, or form a company of some description (partnership, LTD, PLC?) as a cost center.

2. What is the best method of delegating flying time?

3. If we are planning to do our PPLs on this aircraft do we need a public transport CofA or will a private or permit be enough?

Cheers! :ok:

SkyHawk-N
19th Apr 2006, 15:34
Doing your PPLs on the aircraft will probably be prohibited by the insurance company, unless it is specifically asked for and approved. Then you will have to pay heaps for it, again probably.

Genghis the Engineer
19th Apr 2006, 15:41
1. In my experience most groups agree a set of rules, then everybody signs a bit of paper when they join agreeing to abide by them. Make sure you include sanctions for non-observance (i.e., how to throw people out!)

2. Most syndicates have a booking system and a rule that prohibits any member from having more than X number of days booked ahead at any time.

3. Public transport.


Nothing wrong with any of the types you've mentioned, although for that low money you'll probably only get (of the PA28 family) a -140, which isn't the most flexible aeroplane in terms of runway length and payload.

Two other types I'd look at would be a Rallye (but have it checked for mainspar corrosion) or the PA38 Tomahawk which personally I think is a much nicer aeroplane than a C152 and probably cheaper as well - certainly it's no less capable as a training aeroplane. Also don't discount the occasional unusual aeroplane - something like an Auster or Tripacer for example.

G

foxmoth
19th Apr 2006, 15:43
1. Look at the PFA web site for advice on this, many ways of doing this, but do ensure you have a proper, legally binding agreement.
2.Again many ways. Our group has a web based booking system, in the rules is a priority system where each member in turn has priority a week at a time, others can book in that week by his agreement or take any time he has not booked 48hours in advanced - we have not needed to put this into use but it is in the rules to stop one member hogging the aircraft all the time.
3.whilst being used for non licenced pilots it will need to be maintained on a CofA to Public Transport standard (ther is no longer a Public transport/Private C of A as such), once all are qualified you need not maintain this meaning you can do more work on the aircraft yourself and do not need to worry so much about engine age and hours as long as it i running OK.
:ok:

Zulu Alpha
19th Apr 2006, 16:36
You could always hop over to Florida for 3 weeks, get your licences and then come back and get a PFA aircraft which will be much cheaper to operate. You can then get differences training on your new aircraft without it needing to be a Pubic Transport aircraft.

Depending on how much you will fly you can choose the number of members. Aim for 150 hrs per year as the optimum between availability and cost. For 3 of you this will be around 50 hrs each. Our group only manages about 25 hrs each although when we get a new member they always seem to do 35/40 hrs in the first year and then drop back down to around 25hrs/yr.

Oxeagle
19th Apr 2006, 17:41
Ok cheers for the info guys. We're meeting up this weekend to discuss it further and maybe look at some potential candidates. Ghengis, I wouldn't mind flying a PA-38, never flown one before so I'll need to try and blag a flight with someone to compare it to my current training aircraft (PA-28 Warrior and TB-9 Tampico). Zulu Alpha, I have looked at doing my PPL in the US, if you exclude the one time cost of actually buying the aircraft then it actually works out marginally cheaper to do it here than the US, though if this goes t*ts up, I will probably go to the US!

BroomstickPilot
19th Apr 2006, 23:24
Oxeagle,

If you happen to be an AOPA member, I believe they have produced guidance on this subject and a model agreement for group members.

Broomstick.

Rivet gun
19th Apr 2006, 23:42
On a PFA permit aircraft you can only do PPL training if you or a member of your immediate family are sole owner, but not if owned by a group.

Zulu Alpha
20th Apr 2006, 13:06
Rivet Gun,

Thanks for pointing out my ambiguity.

What I meant was get the licence you need at a flying school and then get someone (possibly an instructor) to sit next to you while you get familiar with your new aircraft. This is legal as long as you are P1 which you will be because you have your licence (and tailwheel sign off etc.) However the other person is there as an 'adviser' while you get used to the aircraft rather than giving training.
Ths way you can own a PFA or Private Cat aircraft which are cheaper and allows you a wider range of aircraft types.
The likelihood is that you will not want a Public Transport aircraft once you have your licence, but you will need one if you want to train in it. Hence my suggestion that you wait until you have your licence to buy something and get some assistance (ie not training) to convert onto it to be able to fly it well and safely.
ZA

Oxeagle
21st Apr 2006, 09:36
Cheers guys,
The requirements for the aircraft have now changed somewhat. We have decided that we want a fully IFR equipped aircraft. I guess that this rules out most, if not all C150/152s and PA-38s. Are there many IFR equipped Cherokees out there?

Because of now requiring an IFR equipped aircraft we could probably stretch to £30k between us, so what could we get for this price?

foxmoth
21st Apr 2006, 10:10
Because of now requiring an IFR equipped aircraft we could probably stretch to £30k between us,
Not a lot if you really want full IFR, for that price I would say you are still only looking at a well equipped (probably not full IFR) Pa28 or similar.
For full IFR you really need an Instrument rating to fully use it so probably over the top. IMHO what you need to be well fitted out is, VOR/DME & Transponder whith mode C, from this you can expand to - GPS, ILS, ADF, second Altimeter. and that is the order of importance I would probably put them in, possibly swapping GPS and ILS depending on where you operate from.:ok:

robin
21st Apr 2006, 10:31
If you are still only training why don't you complete that first, do a season in an inexpensive aircraft to increase your skill and confidence and trade up later.

At the moment you are concentrating on the flying. Ownership is a whole new ball-game and you have no idea as to how the group will work out. I think most people would advise being a member of a pre-existing group first to see the pitfalls and to reduce risk

Buying a pricey bit of kit too early could well end in tears

IO540
21st Apr 2006, 12:27
Oxeagle

No way to get an airways legal aircraft (UK only, or UK+Europe) for £30k.

A few years ago I was looking for an IFR aircraft which would be legal around Europe and it was just about doable for about £60k, if you got lucky. But if you want to fly above FL095 (often necessary for both weather and airway MEA reasons) then you need an BRNAV GPS which, as a minimum, is an IFR approved GNS430. Personally I think the moving map on a 430 is very small. But you also need an ADF, DME and a load of other stuff which all has to work and you aren't likely to get that for £60k, and if you did it will probably be on its last legs. The entry level for European IFR is likely to be over £100k and you are looking at something around the level of a good condition TB10 or (if you want something really capable) a TB20. Or the Piper/Cessna stuff if you like that sort of thing :O

However I suspect you are after "UK IFR" i.e. flying around Class G on the IMC Rating, and for that the legal equipment requirement is minimal. The practical requirement is going to be a decent panel mounted GPS backed up by a VOR and DME. For IFR in Class D you need extra stuff - look at Schedules 4 and 5 of the ANO.

For IFR (in VMC or in IMC) in Class G in the UK, almost any old piece of bent metal will be legal. Whether you, a father of six children say, will want to is another matter :O

Buying a pricey bit of kit too early could well end in tears

The ownership argument cuts both ways. Yes it's a steep learning curve, and this is not cheap hobby, but nothing will do as much for your flying enjoyment, and safety (through currency) as good access to something decent. I was looking to buy shortly after starting my PPL (it was pretty obvious there was no other way) and my chief regret is that I was not able to do it sooner. Of course the instructors got really p1ssed off over this, not least because they could see they weren't going to get much self fly hire income out of me. That's one of the biggest pitfalls in ownership - in GA you never quite know who is grinding what axe.

robin
21st Apr 2006, 15:20
IO540

All very true, but looking back at my training days, I think you need some time to consolidate the training and shouldn't rush too quickly down a particular (and quite expensive) route.

Still - not my money

SkyHawk-N
21st Apr 2006, 15:42
I think you need some time to consolidate the training and shouldn't rush too quickly down a particular (and quite expensive) route.
Still - not my money

Don't worry about oxeagle's money, he's in IT, he's loaded ....
Right oxeagle? :ok:

I agree with Robin though, maybe it's worth finishing your training and then look at getting an aircraft if you still fancy it. Owning an aircraft can take a lot of time and money which you may not like to give inbetween lessons (?) Just a thought.

IO540

If you go the N reg route you can get a decent IFR aircraft for a lot cheaper than £60K! It might not be a TB10 but it would have all the equipment.

Oxeagle
21st Apr 2006, 17:30
Don't worry about oxeagle's money, he's in IT, he's loaded ....
Right oxeagle? :ok:

lol I wisk SkyHawk, I wish :rolleyes:
Still living with parents so its quite a cushty arrangement, I can spend all of my money on flying which suits me just fine :O I see your and Robin's point about getting an aircraft after finishing my PPL, but I did the maths and if you exclude the fixed cost of purchasing the aircraft (because it's a share I'll sell it when i've finished PPL and hour building with the aircraft) then it works out about the same as doing the PPL in the US, and i'd rather do it here in my own aircraft (damn that would sound good, MY aircraft! :D ). All depends on what the other potential group members want.

Thats a point, does anyone here fly Robin HR-200s? I've seen a really nice one for sale at a good price, wouldnt mind someones opinion of them!

IO540
21st Apr 2006, 18:14
OK, there are too many people posting stuff here (incl. myself) which varies hugely according to their own perspective, and the perspective isn't always obvious.

If you are learning to fly to go places then the choice of aircraft is quite narrow. It's going to be a good IFR-capable 4-seater, and you need the budget for playing the game at that level. BTW Skyhawk I know quite a lot about N-reg myself ;) and it makes very little difference to costs - unless you like to pretend that your handheld GPS substitutes for ADF and DME :O

There is a number of different types any of which would do the job well enough and if you buy one of them you won't go far wrong, and it comes down to personal preference. I don't like 1-door planes (e.g. PA28) and don't like high-wing.

You can "go places" in something a lot less capable but then you are looking at VFR and yes it can be done, I've done it and I know a few of the tricks you use to fly VFR "imaginatively". But you need a lot more time, to get stuck in places. If you have plenty of time, you can do it quite cheaply in any of the very capable modern Permit types.

If you are learning to fly to just bimble around, or do aerobatics, or you haven't got any money, then it's a whole different argument and I would wholly agree with those who advise to get the PPL and try different things and see what you like best.

SkyHawk-N
21st Apr 2006, 18:24
BTW Skyhawk I know quite a lot about N-reg myself ;) and it makes very little difference to costs - unless you like to pretend that your handheld GPS substitutes for ADF and DME :O

But my GPS is panel mounted :confused: and I do have ADF and DME :confused:

Oxeagle
21st Apr 2006, 18:36
IO540,
Myself and the other share holders would be, after completing our PPLs in the aircraft, looking to hour build using this aircraft, which we would also like to involve a good deal of touring around the UK and to other European counteries. That's the reason for wanting an IFR equipped aircraft, although we realise realistically with the money we have don't have much choice, so we may just go for an aircraft with a decent VFR fit and partial IFR capability.

On a different note, I personally like the Grumman AA5 and Robin HR-200, are these good choices do you think?

Genghis the Engineer
21st Apr 2006, 19:32
There is, of-course, a difference between IFR equipped and airways equipped!


Oxeagle I recommend investing in a copy of a book called "The book of flight tests" by Alan Bramson. It's not so far as I know in print, but pretty easy to find second hand - it'll answer a lot of your specific questions about particular types.

G

IO540
21st Apr 2006, 22:33
OK Skyhawk, please spell out how I can save myself a bundle by being on N-reg (I already am on N-reg but would still like to know :O )

Compared to being on G under the Private regime.

One can do a considerable amount of chipping away around the edges, e.g. not doing "mandatory" SBs which under FAA are not actually mandatory but under EASA they have to be done, usually completely pointlessly, but on a piston aircraft it doesn't translate to a lot of £ per hour of airborne time.

SkyHawk-N
22nd Apr 2006, 06:44
OK Skyhawk, please spell out how I can save myself a bundle by being on N-reg (I already am on N-reg but would still like to know :O )

I'm not saying YOU can save loads as you say you already have one but you originally said ....

you also need an ADF, DME and a load of other stuff which all has to work and you aren't likely to get that for £60k, and if you did it will probably be on its last legs.

My Cessna is fully IFR equipped (ADF, DME, VOR, Localizer, GS, Mode-C...) and including ferrying (it flew over) was no where near £60k (I would argue it isn't on it's last legs ;) ). There are many suitable IFR equipped aircraft in the USA which could be purchased to provide a budget VFR and IFR hour builder and I don't need to say why it will be cheaper to operate. If you want a nice gleaming, more modern, more powerful IFR aircraft I agree it will cost more than £60k.

Just my opinion :ok:

BTW: All SB's done.

BroomstickPilot
22nd Apr 2006, 07:49
SkyHawk-N,

May I please enquire;

What the cost of ferrying was?

Did you ferry it youself or go to a ferrying company?

Were there were any other importing costs?

Broomstick.

SkyHawk-N
22nd Apr 2006, 08:02
BroomstickPilot,

PM for you.

Skyhawk.

BroomstickPilot
22nd Apr 2006, 09:12
Thanks, SkyHawk-N
Broomstick.

IO540
23rd Apr 2006, 09:19
"There are many suitable IFR equipped aircraft in the USA which could be purchased to provide a budget VFR and IFR hour builder"

[my emphasis]

Again, we are discussing a wholly different purpose. I automatically (and in your case wrongly) assumed that the owner will want to go somewhere in the plane. Perhaps with friends/family, as tends to be the case on longer trips.

If you want to "hour build", under IFR, even in actual IMC, you can do it in any old bit of bent metal, and if you have a GPS somewhere you won't get lost.

On £60k, it's going to be a little more tricky to get something legal for IFR throughout Europe, remembering FM Immunity on VOR/LOC stuff and with the practically mandatory IFR certified BRNAV GPS installation. Not to say it can't be done but I've looked and never saw anything remotely near.

The basic reason is that a functioning spamcan (that isn't falling apart) is a good £30k; that will get you something like a PA28 and the avionics go on top of that. Then you are in the "should I fit gold plated bathroom taps in my council house bathroom" situation.

Genghis the Engineer
23rd Apr 2006, 09:59
If you want to "hour build", under IFR, even in actual IMC, you can do it in any old bit of bent metal, and if you have a GPS somewhere you won't get lost.


Agreed, but I think I'd personally be looking for something with at the very least an ADF, VOR and GPS (although the latter could be handheld, the functionality of panel-mount units tends to be different and is better practice).

The ideal would probably be VOR + VOR/DME/ILS + ADF + GPS which will allow pretty much anything you'd ever want to practice.

G

SkyHawk-N
23rd Apr 2006, 10:45
Then you are in the "should I fit gold plated bathroom taps in my council house bathroom" situation.

I suppose if you can only afford a council house and you want gold plated taps the answer is 'Yes' :ok:

IO540
23rd Apr 2006, 11:06
At the risk of propagating a discussion in which the wires may already be substantially crossed, for European IFR you need to meet the respective national requirements for IFR, which can be found in the AIPs as I wrote earlier.

In practice this means VOR, DME, ADF, ILS, BRNAV GPS (panel mounted obviously). Plus a second altimeter and other stuff I don't remember. I wouldn't fly IFR/airways with less, because if I got turned over on the ground it would be really obvious. It's a bit like flying an NDB approach without an ADF; I've seen good arguments that it's probably not illegal in Class G but that is hugely restrictive in the UK and useless abroad.

Mode S is also mandatory; concessions or no concessions you will have to fit it anyway pretty soon. That's £3000 or so.

To be 100% legal there is a mind-bending list of trivia and one could get awfully anally retentive about the exact wording of the POH supplement for the BRNAV GPS for example. Almost nobody understands this stuff which is just as well.

A lot of planes simply cannot take this equipment. Not enough panel space, or you could do it with a completely new panel but that's a very expensive exercise (which avionics shops really love).

Finally, remember that secondhand avionics fetch almost nothing. I sold a good-as-new KT76C Mode C (with all the documentation) on U.S. Ebay for US$1300 but that won't work for anything old.

Dan Winterland
24th Apr 2006, 09:07
If you're still pre PPL, then I suggest what you are looking for is an aircaft you can complete your IMC rating and exercise your rating. For this, a PA28-140 (which is what you're looking at with your budget) would be ideal. If you are later (and this I suspect would be much later) looking to do your IRs, then think about trading up.

But when it comes to groups, here's some benefit of my experience having been a member of a few.

1. A private CofA is adquate for post PPL and a bit cheaper than Public Transport.

2. Limit the number of members to a maximum of 8. Any more and you will have problems with utilisation and personalities.

3. Have a set system of rules for booking. An internet web site with a booking page is best. It's a pain in the bum when you've just driven 100 miles to find the chap who took the booking entered your details on the wrong page of the diary and the aircraft is in France!

4. Have a set level of experience for members joining. I suggest 100 hours post award of PPL is realistic. I know this won't apply to you as you will have yet to finish yours, but I suggest any future joiners should be restricted.

5. And while we're on this subject, have a set of rules in place to ensure that when members leave the group they only sell their share to people acceptable to other members.

6. Price you hours realisticly. Run an engine fund with the intention of replacing the engine at 2000 hours. Don't expect the engine to last more 'on condition'. With several people flying it, it won't! And when buying the aircraft, get one with plenty of hours left. The price you pay to fly will go up if the engine has 1800hrs when you buy it. Also, add some extra cost to run a fund for contingencies.

7. Set the group up as a Limited Company with each member owning a share in the company rather than a share in the aircraft. This is easier and cheaper than you think and will stop your aircraft being sequestrated if a member is declared bankrupt. It also gives you some protection if anything drastic goes wrong, but the members who volunteer to be directors have some liability.

All these recommendations come from hard experience! And expect to fall out with your group members from time to time - even if you were good friends when the group formed!

IO540
24th Apr 2006, 12:58
Can't train in a Private CofA plane for the initial award of a licence or a rating - unless

a) the instructor doesn't charge for the flying, or

b) you own it outright **

** with some additional concessions like a spouse of the owner, and IIRC directors of a limited company owning the plane can all train - the CAA has issued a flyer on this which I don't remember

Oxeagle
24th Apr 2006, 14:16
Cheers Dan & IO540, that pretty much covers everything I want to know! :ok:

Dan Winterland
25th Apr 2006, 02:43
And I should have mentioned that owning an aeroplane as a group may not be that much cheaper than renting. What it does is give you more flexibilty and of course the pleasure of owning an aeroplane. This is why you should complete your PPL before buying.

This of course depends on where you base your aircraft. there may be a small unlicenced airfield or strip near you with much less charges - a massive saving which isn't available to you when training.

A Flight Engineer I know once gave me some good advice. If it flys, floats or f##ks, it's usually cheaper to rent!

Oxeagle
25th Apr 2006, 15:03
This of course depends on where you base your aircraft. there may be a small unlicenced airfield or strip near you with much less charges - a massive saving which isn't available to you when training.

We are planning on keeping out aircraft at the airfield where our flying club is located, which is unlicensed. For £25 a month I can't complain! :) We've possibly found the perfect aircraft for us, a Cessna 150 Aerobat with very low engine hours, and we've worked out that its going to cost us around £100 per month fixed costs and about £30 per hour, which is much much better than the £120 per hour I pay at the moment! Only have to use it 2 hours every month for it to be worth it, although I plan to use it a lot lot more than that :ok:

Oh by the way, we currently need 2 other pilots to form the group, as one will probably not be able to take part, so anyone within the Oxfordshire area (Abingdon, Oxford, Chipping Norton, bandbury, Witney etc) who might be interested PM me

robin
25th Apr 2006, 15:40
I assume that the £30 is the 'dry rate'. Don't discount fuel costs and engine fund in your costings, even if you only intend to keep it for a short term. It is better to set up some reserves early

Dan Winterland
26th Apr 2006, 01:03
Sounds ideal, with the added attraction of being able to do a few (albeit limited - it's a 152!) aerobatics.

Good luck and enjoy.