Length of CV

[TolTol]

Hi all,

Sorry if this has been covered already (couldn’t find anything on search).

What is the recommended number of pages that a CV should contain? I have heard that Ryanair only want 1 page! I can just about manage 1.5 but not 1.

The headers in my cv are: Personal Details, Flying Experience, Education, Hobbies and Interests, References.

Thanks for any help.;)

[RAFAT]

Generally in aviation - 1 page.

[scroggs]

Archive Reference Threads - READ BEFORE YOU POST A QUESTION (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649)

One page only. After 29 years' professional flying and 14000 hours or so, I can still get my CV on one page. So can you.

Scroggs

[pipergirl]

Get it down to one page-
You mention references as one of your categories..just put under this heading "available on request" and keep the hobbies short n sweet...;)

[buzzc152]

It's suprising how many people don't know how to put together even a half decent CV. We generally get 1 or 2 CV's through our office door a week and most of them are pretty bad in there design, layout and content. We even once received a CV 34 pages long....... we keep it for comedy value.

[MrHorgy]

We even once received a CV 34 pages long....... we keep it for comedy value.

I remember when I worked in the HR department of a certain government organisation they used to have a "comedy folder" - where all the people's applications would go if they were worthy of keeping. You'd be amazed what some people do or do not write on forms. I'll never forget someone spelling "speshel" (special) on one particular form!

Horgy

[sicky]

Does anybody know any good resources for CV writing, such as websites?

It's easy to understand why some people get a little confused, but i see it as the CV being a brief summary of you, and the interview is to go into the details of what is on your CV.

Edit: Sorry scanned over the links above, will take a browse through there.

[Artificial Horizon]

Here is a page from the Oxford Aviation website that I have found useful over the past few years and used successfully on several occassions. Worth a look for any unsure of how to prepare an aviaition CV.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/career/cv.htm

Hope it helps.

A.H.

[nickphuk]

Not really sure on the general view in the aviation world.
However from various sources it appears that the References section whilst required is not generally included in the actual CV anymore.
It is preferred to be an addition so to speak listed with

3 or 2 x Personal Reference
3 or 2 x Professional Reference

I hope that helps, I can sqeeze it to 1 page by removing the reference section.

Regards

[low n' slow]

My general rula has been: As many pages as required, but don't just try to fill them out with the story of your life.
In the top margin I've put my contact details, full name, birth date, phone numbers and e-mail etc. Then there's the certificates section stating all held and valid certificates. I've also included validity of the relevant certificates and ratings. I've also here given reference to my main flight school.
Since I don't have a large number of flying hours on any large transport aircraft, I've kept the flying experience section small and simple. Total, ME, IR and PIC. No type specifications.

After this I've put most recent education followed by most relevant jobs I've held, most recent first. I've finished off with references, although I think it might be better to just put: "will be given upon request".

I think the layout is whats most important. It has to be easy to read, no shadows or intricate shapes in the background. If it's a paper version, make shure that everything they need is on the first page so you can afford for them to loose the second page. Put your contact details on both pages in the top margin.

Once you have a good CV, keep following up on it, unless they state clearly that they don't want you to call them. This method gave me a job, but then again, it might just have been good fortune...

Good luck!
/LnS

[757manipulator]

1 page..end of story, Pete the pilot did mine for a small fee :ok:

(hopefully that fits the no-advertising rule)

[TolTol]

Okay so 1 page it is! However I'm a little unsure as to what hours I should include. At the moment I have the total hours followed by single and multi time. Should I put down PIC, Dual, IR and Night?

Thanks.

[Troy McClure]

Why put down Total, Single and Multi? Fairly obvious that Single + Multi = Total. I include Total, Multi and PIC. Also include multi-IFR if you have any, esp when applying for charter jobs. And current aircraft type if you're employed, unless it's SEP.

Also after the word 'Employment:', stick in your notice period in brackets.

[scroggs]

nickphuk you haven't even finished fATPL training. You must be struggling to fill half of one side of A4! How on earth can you 'just squeeze it into one page' by removing your referees??! Remember, you are applying for jobs as a pilot, for which only your flying experience is relevant. Your employment history may be very interesting, but if it's not in flying it gets very brief mention indeed.

PS Your username is offensive. Find another one.

low n'slow: 'My general rule has been: As many pages as required... Nope. One page, no more. It's easy to do. As you say, it is not a life story. It is effectively a statement of flying experience and little else.

TolTol Why can't you get it into one page? Your headings are OK-ish:

Personal Details: Name, address, phone, e-mail (not [email protected] or similar, please) age.

Flying Experience: Total hours, total ME hours, PIC hours, qualifications held (CPL/IR, MCC, any type ratings, class 1 medical with date).

Education: Only if you're a recent school/college/university leaver and the target employer has stated a requirement for particular educational qualifications. A single line should do it: 8 GCSEs at C and above, 3 A-levels (Maths, Drama, Balinese Pole-Dancing), BA (Hons) in Advanced Fraud and Dodgy Book-keeping.

Employment history (which you didn't mention): If it's not in flying, make it very, very brief. I don't need to know what synergistic benefits devolved to the wider consumership from your holistic approach to shelf-stacking in Tescos.

Hobbies and Interests: OK, if you must, but keep it short. Don't tell me what football team you support - I might hate them. Actually, I might hate football altogether, so be wary of mentioning stuff that generates strong feelings.

References: 'Available if required' is all that is needed

Scroggs

[USE THE RUDDERS]

My CV is 1 page and to be honest some of the employment descriptions could be less detailed.
Basically my cv consists of:

Personal Details
Flying Hours - split into Total and Multi
Licences and Training
Educational qualifications
Employment history going back 10 years in my case (over 30)
Interests and hobbies

Then references on request.

[TolTol]

TolTol Why can't you get it into one page? Your headings are OK-ish:


Well I have it down to one page. But as you have pointed out I'm missing the employment history section. My education section is kind of complicated (different awards) and I really don’t want to leave it out as I've worked pretty darn hard for it. Thanks for the feedback doe:ok:

[scroggs]

It doesn't matter how hard you worked for your educational qualifications; this is not an Oscar nomination, it is a statement of experience. You may be (quite rightly) very proud of your degree, your high-speed CPL or the fact that you worked for a particular company in the past, designing some very important part of an esoteric piece of machinery. None of that is relevent to me when I'm choosing people to interview as potential pilots - I'll ask you about it at the interview. What I need to know is that you're qualified for the job I'm offering. That's it. If you wish to bask in the reflected glory of some past achievements, write your memoirs and show them to your kids.

Scroggs

[M80]

Scroggs - your response is too harsh. Low houred guys DON'T have a lot of hours and DO attempt to distinguish themselves by previous academic achievements. It reflects a record of academic achievement.

I realise that you have a lot of hours and your hours speak for themselves on your CV, but even so you may be able to cast back to the dim and distant days when you were a young, aspiring pilot. Your response was derogatory. I'll put my tin hat on.

[despegue]

Sorry, English is not my mothertongue, but why is "nickphuk" offensive"?

On the topic now:

some of my "tips"...
1 page is preferable, but NEVER make your lettertype too small (at least 12, never smaller, this is really important)
Keep it brief but make sure you don't leave "blank periods".
Hobbies: put them down when you think that it might highlight your personnality. eg. Scouting and theatre/acting are always very good.

oh yes, a cv. is nothing without the motivation letter. These 2 go together.

One more thing... English is the "lingua franca" in aviation, but please, people who's mothertongue is English, be aware that for non British, writing a cv. without spelling mistakes is a must, knowing perfectly the "British CV. etiquette and form" is next to impossibe.

[TolTol]

Well I dont agree with that scroggs, so I think we'll agree to disagree;)

[pipergirl]

well, I totally agree with what Scroggs has said and I do not see where there has been any type of harshness.

I read 100s of CVs each week and it is amazing how many CVs are long winded, badly put together and full of irrelevant information.

All I need to know is "are you qualified for the position you have just applied for?" The rest of the information should be given briefly and you will be asked to elaborate at the interview.

TolTol...seriously, resist the temptation to go into a second page..get it down to one page and don't go on into another page to give a full account of the numerous educational awards you have won..keep it brief ;)

[scroggs]

Look, guys, this is really very important that you understand this: you are not applying for a management job where your CV/resume has to convince the employer that you are better than all the other applicants by virtue of your education and/or previous employment experience. Selection for interview for this kind of job means that you are on a very short shortlist, and your CV has to work very hard for you to get on it. Unlike that kind of CV, which is effectively a personal advertisement, the aviation CV is, as I have already said, a bald statement of experience.

Low-houred pilots like you will generally be applying to large employers who are looking for a relatively large number of pilots. The position you are applying for is effectively an apprenticeship. The employer accepts that you will need a good deal of training before you are ready to fly his aeroplanes, and will take great care in the interview and simulator assessment to ensure that the people chosen have the right qualities for the job. All your CV needs to tell him is that you are qualified to be chosen for that assessment phase, which is where the real selection is done - unlike the management candidates, who to a large extent are selected from their CVs.

The people who deal with pilot recruitment in most airlines are not involved in other areas of company staffing. They have, over the years, developed a system which has been around long enough to be regarded as an industry culture, and part of that is the single-page CV with covering letter. Some companies are so pedantic about this that they will automatically bin any CVs longer than one page without reading them. That is what you are up against.

I am not giving advice here so that I can read my own thoughts in electronic print, I am telling you how it is. I you wish to dismiss my advice and do it your own way, you are of course at liberty to do so. But do you really want to take that risk?

Fortunately for those of you who feel that your lives are worth more than one page, some companies now use a printed or online application form which will allow you to exercise your prose skills and to 'big yourselves up'. Don't get carried away, however; Chief Pilots don't want egotistical baby pilots on their books!

Scroggs

[TolTol]

Hi Pipergirl, sorry if you misunderstood me. I have my cv down to one page and I'm reasonably happy with it. However I am missing the employment history section.

Scroggs, I am taking your advice very seriously. May I ask 1 more question? Is the employment section a must have? Do potential employers really care if I worked as a petrol pump attendant when I was 16? I’ve never had a fulltime job.

Thanks a lot.

[scroggs]

No, you don't need to put in anything about pocket-money jobs or those part-time gigs that funded your training unless they're directly relevant - such as flight dispatcher or similar stuff. You'll no doubt get asked at interview how you funded your training, so make sure you have the information to hand - I know how easy it is to forget these things, especially under pressure!

Scroggs

[badgerpuppy]

do it on one page, otherwise the pillock they employ to do the admin will take the staple/paperclip off to photocopy/fax it, and will lose one of the sheets. It WILL be the one with your contact details. It's that simple, i've seen it done.

[Pilot Pete]

Listen to Scroggs guys, he knows what he is talking about. Stop trying to write a CV containing what you think is important and start putting in what is important to the airline recruiter. They need to see who you are, how to contact you, your qualifications for the job, a bit of work history (especially relevant aviation related jobs), a bit of education (the longer ago it was the less relevant) and a little bit for you to chat about at interview that makes you sound interesting (like some interesting or worthwhile hobbies and interests) if you are a low houred applicant with little life/ job experience. That's it. And what's more it is easy to get it onto one page, if you can't then you are waffling and they won't read it anyway.

PP

[Captain_Scooby]

Interesting responses. My question is this:

It is always made very clear that covering letters should be tailored to the company you are writing to and NEVER a bog standard letter with the address changed. I agree with this completely, and always follow the advice. However, sometimes I feel that this is not enough and that it is worth tailoring a CV towards a particular company. This can be an incredibly time-consuming process, having to change the layout and content of a CV each time one applies for a job, but is it worth it? Do employers fully accept that CV's are going to have a pretty generic layout, or would they prefer to have something where the information THEY want is standing out waiting for them.

As the question is a little vague, I'll give an example. I'm currently at PPL level and recently applied for a glider-towing job. I changed the layout of my CV so that the fact I had tailwheel experience and was interested in gliding, was something that stuck out. My hours wasnt so important, so that went a little further down the CV. I pointed all of the important points out on the covering letter, but still thought it might help to emphasise them on the CV.

I understand that perhaps 90% of that companies that fresh fATPL's apply to, WILL be looking for exactly the same thing, but I still think the question is valid.

Is it worth the hassle?

[Pilot Pete]

You've already said it. The airlines are pretty much all after the same thing in their prospective (pilot) employees. Think about the qualities that you would want in a pilot if you were employing; good communication skills, a strong sense of responsibility, leadership experience etc etc etc. The list is very long! All you have to do on a CV is give them the flying qualifications that make you employable (as I listed in a previous post) and some desirable experience.

If you have management experience in a previous job, or have had responsibility in a safety critical environment, then this is desirable and worth mentioning in your career history. BUT, don't forget that the CV is a taster to get them interested enough to call you for selection, so don't harp on and on about the number of people you managed and the 'responsibilities' (read job description) endlessly. You can expand on the 'simple' facts at interview if asked, the CV is NOT the place to get life histories down.

If you keep is simple AND relevant you will keep their attention and their 'first scan' may be enough to get you into the 'further, closer inspection' pile. Consider a poorly presented CV sitting next to a professional looking one, could even be the same candidate! Which one do you think would naturally be more appealing? Obviously the one where they can see clearly that the individual meets their minimum requirements and has some desirable experience (be that aviation related or non-aviation). If the same candidate had another CV that looked bad, was poorly laid out, with the required detail either hard to find or missing, with waffle about 'communication skills at all levels' when talking about their part-time job in McDonalds.......well, it doesn't take the brains of an Archbishop to work out which candidate looks the better on paper.

Remember that last point too. They are looking at you on paper to see if you fit the bill, just like an application form or CV for ANY job. It is important to sell yourself on paper, which is different from how you are going to sell yourself face-to-face in an interview. If you are great at interviews you are selling yourself short if you miss out on interviews because your CV is so poor.

I see many Wannabe CVs and the quality varies significantly from absolutely abysmal to pretty good. A good CV is NOT going to get you a job on its own, but the whole recruitment process into airlines (from the candidates viewpoint) is about minimising the risk of failure through dotting 'I's and crossing 'T's. The best candidate may not get the job; the best presented candidate will usually be the one who gets the job offer. So a well presented CV and cover letter, or good application form, good interview technique, well dressed and presented individual with a well polished sim performance is the more likely successful applicant.

Minimise your risk of failure at each stage through good preparation, research and CONTROL.

PP

[Olof]

Scroggs, should there be an additional cover letter added to the one-page CV? Right now my CV is on 2 pages but that includes my "about myself" section....

[Pilot Pete]

CV on one side of A4. Letter on a separate sheet of A4. Job done. Be careful with an 'About yourself' section. Remember they only need a small taster, so you only need a few sentences about yourself and any hobbies or interests, not a half page paragraph (which they won't read).

PP

[scroggs]

There should be a covering letter detailing exactly what position you are applying for. Many companies are recruiting pilots at several different levels simultaneously, and you need your CV to go into the right pile, so don't say you're applying for an F/O position if what you actually mean is (for example) a cadet-entry F/O position. The experience requirements for the two positions may be quite different. The covering letter doesn't need to say much more than this. If you have something interesting (and brief) to say about why you're interested in this particular company, by all means include it, but don't feel that you have to schmooze in the covering letter.

Please bear in mind that the process we are advising you on is the entry to an airline as a prospective first officer. Other flying employment may well require a different approach, and the smaller the company the more different it may have to be! Nevertheless, as Pete says, you need to impress with your CV as briefly and succinctly as you can. It should take very little space to indicate why you are qualified to, for instance, be a glider-tug pilot. Don't bore your reader.

Scroggs

[sarboy w****r]

Having searched PPrune for information on CVs, and spoken with some colleagues who have gone through the military to civilian job transition, I think I've got a reasonable idea as to how to format my CV.

However, I'm not so sure about what would normally be expected in a covering letter and what should be avoided, and would greatly appreciate some advice. I've drafted a letter, but as you only get one first impression, I thought I'd check with others before firing it off. I can't easily go to the colleagues I spoke with earlier for advice, as I'm presently flying in Afghanistan...

I'm going to be looking for a helicopter job in late 07 in NZ, but am going down there in a couple of months to have a chat with some prospective employers and to do my license flight test etc. I have a couple of companies I have made contact with to speak to when I am down there, but wish to expand the numbers a little. I'm intending to write to some other companies with CV and covering letter shortly, hence the need for some advice.

Scroggs: with your background, I'd particularly be grateful for any advice about covering letter dos and don'ts that you feel you can offer.

So, open to the floor: any tips, suggestions or mistakes to be avoided please?

Thanks,

SBW

[scroggs]

The helicopter world is quite specialised, and generalisations that apply to airline CVs may well be totally irrelevant for your needs. I suggest you ask in the Rotorheads forum for advice specific to your situation.

Scroggs