A400M. What will happen to it?

[Talk Wrench]

I'm not too sure what the ramifications of Bae Systems selling off their share of Airbus(as you may have heard), means for the A400M.

Considering that Bae Systems has a share in EADS, how will that affect the build of the A400M when the wings are supposedly going to be manufactured in the UK.(By Airbus)

Have BaeS sold our rights to the A400M wing build to the continental partners?

Do we still have a stake in the project?

If we no longer have a stake and still commit ourselves to the project (which we probably will), will we find ourselves tied into a financially unviable spares and servicing agreement?


Admittedly, at present I know little of the project and I will have to research deeper, however, I can't help but think that the ever diminishing defence budget will appropriate an ever increasing amount of cash to this new aircraft.


I can't help but feel as though the RAF and the British Mil full stop are being sold down the road again.

Are we awaiting a donkey or are we awaiting an ass?


regards

Talk Wrench

[pr00ne]

Talk Wrench,

Simple answer, absolutely NO change!

Apart from the fact that BAE Systems have not yet sold anything, they are only "considering" it, the ownership of the Airbus company has no effect whatsoever on what or where the company does it's work. BAES own 20% of the Airbus company, the remaining 80% is owned by EADS. That does NOT mean that BAES own the wing work or the factories where the work is carried out, they in fact own 20% of them, just as they own 20% of Toulouse, Seville, Hamburg and Dresden.

Airbus is a seperate commercial entity, owned 80% by EADS and 20% by BAE Systems. The element that does the wing work, fuel and undercarriage systems and A321 centre fuselages is called Airbus UK. It s NOT BAE Systems.

So, work will still be carried out by Airbus UK at Hawarden and Filton on all Airbus projects inluding the A400M.

Hope that helps.

Oh, and by the way, it's an ever "increasing" defence budget, when something is diminished it becomes smaller, as Defence expenditure is in fact rising year on year above inflation, it is not diminishing.

[harrogate]

Oh, and by the way, it's an ever "increasing" defence budget, when something is diminished it becomes smaller, as Defence expenditure is in fact rising year on year above inflation, it is not diminishing.

When are we going to face facts and call it an "attack budget" anyway? :8

[BEagle]

And if there are any ex-tactical C-130 or C-17A pilots (particularly those with an instructional background) out there in PPRuNe land who would like to get in on the ground floor of the A400M program in Toulouse this year, then Madrid and Seville, please PM me!

The work would be "to support the complete Training Development for the A400M programme, through all its phases from analysis to instructional design to implementation."

[BEagle]

As an update to my previous post, there is now an urgent requirement for 2 pilots (or ex-pilots) with a background of fixed-wing tactical air transport and instructional experience to work in Toulouse and Seville on the A400M training program. You wouldn't need to hold a current Cat or a civil licence, their interest is purely in your role experience.

If anyone is interested - or knows someone who might be - please PM or PPRuNe-mail me.

I realise that this is close to being an advert, but as I have no direct personal association with this A400M requirement and am merely trying to publicise what's available in civvy street to those of you who might fancy something more interesting than airline flying, I hope that the PPRuNe squirearchy won't object!

[South Bound]

From a purely national point of view, it would be great to get some ex-RAF experience in there - we are likely to use the thing at the extreme end of its operational envelope a lot more than the other nations, and most definitely sooner. Go on fellas, PVR now and do the first RAF crews a favour by getting it right first time...

Toulouse is getting nice this time of year, and it is a particularly pleasant place to sit with a drink and watch the girls go by (with suitable musical accompaniment...).

[NURSE]

I hope A400m is a success and gives C130 and C17 a good run for their money. Its about time the Yanks were knocked of their perch at the top of the TAC airlift tree

[Talk Wrench]

Southbound,

A400m will be assembled at a brand new FAL (Final Assembly Line) near Seville.

Unfortunately, it wont be ready for another 12 months.

TW

[South Bound]

TW, I knew that very well, but the initial work will be in Toulouse and I understand is likely to remain there for some time. With sims and ac not due to be in place in Seville for some time to come, it is likely that the guys/gals will spend a fair time in Toulouse.

Anyway, Seville has its plus points too....

[Roland Pulfrew]

It wasn't known as FLA for no reason you know.











FLA = Fictional Large Aircraft:E

[South Bound]

RP

whether or not the A400M is the right thing for our needs, we should all get used to the idea that it is coming. It will fly, it will arrive around 2010 (if they can just keep the weight down a little...) and by 2015 it will have replaced most of the K-model Hercs. As long as users give it the benefit of the doubt and don't expect too much on day one when it will be a pig to support and have limited capability. This is the same for all new aircraft - C17 was nearly scrubbed during development before massive investment of time and money saw it become the great piece of kit it is today - people should not expect it to immediately peform as the C17 did when the RAF got it, that was a low-risk mature platform by the time we bought it...

Question is did we ask Airbus for the right capabilities and will DPA deliver? Who knows? Hope so, it needs to work PDQ...

[NURSE]

just wish the media would take those facts on board.

[cornwallis]

To all the readers of this thread I would like to make a few points to you from my airbus drivers seat:
1 When the A320 came out it was a very advanced machine devised by engineers who had decided that buttons on the auto flight system did not need labels and some of the buttons have totally different uses,e.g pulling/pushing brings different modes into play.After a couple of write -offs they instituted cpip(continuous product improvement programme) to rectify these defects.My argument is will Airbus do this for the A400M?They have sold in excess of 2000+ of the 320 family and a passenger's family is more likely to sue than yours!
2 Once a programme has terminated Airbus lose interest in it.They have not sold a passenger A300 for a number of years and product development finished about the same time.It suddenly becomes an ugly sister who has no access to Botox!
3 I am told that spares from Airbus are dearer than Boeing but the former are better built
4 The answer is a fleet of c-17s but Gordon is not going to let you have that.
Finally when it is doing something you did not expect you need to perfect a gallic shrug and blame Airbus philosophie!!

[Talk Wrench]

Further to my original post and thank you prOOne for your comment, i thought that everyone may be interested in the following article.

http://business.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=621772006

Despite Bae Systems having a share in EADS, surely by selling their share of airbus to the rest of EADS at a lower than advertised price, will directly influence the costings of the A400m to the MOD.

Secondly, having experience of Toulouse and what is actually going there in terms of aircraft build, I can assure South Bound that no A400M aircraft will arrive at Toulouse until they have been built at the new FAL in Seville. So how can they arrive in Seville when they have been built there? In fact, they will never go to Toulouse full stop, because there is no need to. If sims etc are already in Toulouse, why duplicate them in Seville?

If I am underinformed then it's a fair cop.

Regards to all.

Talk Wrench

[BEagle]

EADS is a multi-national company. Whilst the A400M aircraft may well be constructed in Seville, there are also program offices in Bremen, Madrid and Toulouse as well as elsewhere.

Airbus may have stopped building the A300/310, but will be providing product support to those types for some decades yet!

[South Bound]

TW

never said they would have aircraft there, just that Toulouse was where a lot of the focus was at the moment and is the home of the Airbus training centre. It is logical to assume that any pilots recruited might spend some time there, before aircraft/sims are available elsewhere....

[Talk Wrench]

Thanks South Bound.

Your previous post regarding Toulouse now makes perfect sense. My line of thinking was purely focusing on the subject of where the aircraft will be assembled.

All is clear.

Cheers :ok:

TW

[flipster]

It will probably be late and over budget - not because of Airbus but because of the politicians' meddling.

The brit version better have a DAS good enough to cover all known threats (and some of the future), Flt deck Armour and Fuel Fire Suppresant system as well as multi-redundancy flight controls/computers to take into account battle damage - otherwise.........! Clearances for Spec Ops stuff better come quickly, or the Herc K and J will be soldering on indefinitely!

If, however, the A400M is only half as good as AB say it is, it will be awesome! Sadly, though, I don't think it will quite be in the league of the C17 - but it won't be far behind - if only because of the lower TAS/MN of turbo props at higher flight-levels and eurocontrol not letting us play with the jets.

I may well be wrong but experience has shown us that this is the case so far.

[BEagle]

TAS will be roughly 100KTAS greater than the C-130 in the mid-30s.

Regarding the 21st century's most advanced military airlifter:

The A400M flight control system obtains information from the sidesticks and rudder pedals which is processed by 4 flight control computers which signal the input to hydraulic control surface actuators. Even in the event of the failure of all 4 FCCs, an independent electrical back up system controls additional electro-hydrostatic actuators for all 3 axes. Flaps, spoilers and stab trim are powered by both hydraulic systems.

Segregation between flight control system power sources, distributed routing of electrical cables and distributed avionic racking is a standard feature to maximise battle damage resistance.

An on-board fuel tank inerting system is offered as an option, providing the capability of extracting the air dissolved in the fuel and replacing it with nitrogen-enriched air, as well as filling the ullage space in each tank with nitrogen-enriched air. This reduces the risk of a fire hazard in a battle environment.

I cannot confirm or deny whether the UK's procurment people have specified a full-up DASS, crew protection and and on-board fuel tank inerting, but I am sure that's something the front line end users will be asking the IPT to make clear...

Won't you?

[South Bound]

Beags

steady - you will give them a heart attack (clutching chest, gasping 'KPIs, KPIs, not in the spec, DEC will need to find the money, give us another couple of years, uuuuurrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhh....thud).

[moosemaster]

TAS will be roughly 100KTAS greater than the C-130 in the mid-30s.
Regarding the 21st century's most advanced military airlifter:
The A400M flight control system obtains information from the sidesticks and rudder pedals which is processed by 4 flight control computers which signal the input to hydraulic control surface actuators. Even in the event of the failure of all 4 FCCs, an independent electrical back up system controls additional electro-hydrostatic actuators for all 3 axes. Flaps, spoilers and stab trim are powered by both hydraulic systems.
Segregation between flight control system power sources, distributed routing of electrical cables and distributed avionic racking is a standard feature to maximise battle damage resistance.
An on-board fuel tank inerting system is offered as an option, providing the capability of extracting the air dissolved in the fuel and replacing it with nitrogen-enriched air, as well as filling the ullage space in each tank with nitrogen-enriched air. This reduces the risk of a fire hazard in a battle environment.
I cannot confirm or deny whether the UK's procurment people have specified a full-up DASS, crew protection and and on-board fuel tank inerting, but I am sure that's something the front line end users will be asking the IPT t make clear...
Won't you?


Not wanting to appear too cynical, but I'll believe it when I see it.:\

The 17 is here now and already has most if not all of those features. Is more capable and already has a support infrastructure. Yes we rely on the US for spares, but I'd rather rely on them than Airbus. As was said previously, Airbus soon lose interest in projects after they stop manufacturing them. With so few A400s "projected" in service and so many 17s in USAF service, I'd bet on Boeing for sustained support any day. With the 17 line closing next year, and A400 not expected imminently, my philosophy is;

"A bird in the hand......." and all that.




As always, I stand ready to retake my position in my box.