Flying v. driving & ongoing training culture

[kevmusic]

I know I shouldn't really be dragging something as mundane as driving into these exalted forums but I consider a comparison between cultures worth an airing.
I was unfortunate enough to be driving from Oxford to Kent last night (Sunday) in some of the foulest conditions going. I mean wall-to-wall water and at times, snow. All the way. The driving I saw was appalling. Driving too fast, tailgating and worst of all were the reactions of at least two drivers in front of me who, on entering a patch of standing water at high speed, was to brake!!i :eek: The surprising thing is, in all that distance I only saw one accident :hmm: - there appeared to be no injuries.

Now I haven't got my PPL yet, but I've been around enough flying & gliding people to know that correct procedures, emergency reactions etc. are drummed into us from the word go. And then some. It's a continual process throughout; on the airfield, in the bar & in forums like this. Why can't it be the same in driving which, after all, is a much more dangerous environment? Think of the lives that would be saved.

Kev's thought for the day :cool:

[MichaelJP59]

That sort of attitude of constant learning is found in drivers, but only "enthusiast" ones. Most drivers consider the car as just something to get from A to B, with as little thought as possible.

One of my issues is with accident reporting - why are serious road traffic accidents never reported on with the thoroughness of aviation accidents, and those reports publicised so lessons can be learned? People seem to think of RTAs like the weather, just inevitable and quickly forgotten about.

Oh and while we're on the subject, the driving test should be harder, and you should have to have a review at least every 10 years to keep your privileges. Might even be good for traffic congestion:)

[soay]

Oh and while we're on the subject, the driving test should be harder, and you should have to have a review at least every 10 years to keep your privileges. Might even be good for traffic congestion.
Totally agree. An extra lane could be added at no cost to most motorways, simply by teaching better lane discipline.

[FlyingForFun]

Couldn't agree more.

About 18 months ago, I was stupid enough to get caught speeding by a fixed roadside camera. That's stupid in itself, but compounded by the fact that I drive past this same camera every single day on the way back from work - I know the speed limit, I know the camera is there, and I always make absolutely sure I'm below the limit when I pass the camera - except that day.

The speed I was doing was such that the police offered me the option of attending a "speed awareness course". I turned up fully expecting a day of bullsh!t about how "Speed Kills", thinking I would nod my head at the appriopriate times to get through the course, then go home.

What I found instead was enlightening and educational. I found it very difficult to argue with any of the points which were raised in the classroom, and the driving part of the day showed that although my driving was absolutely fine, there were one or two minor points which I could improve on; I've made every effort to concentrate on those points since.

All in all, a very well-spent £80. Although I wouldn't recommend speeding past a speed camera to get to do the course.....!

FFF
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[SKYYACHT]

I see no reason why driving licences should last until age 70. I think that a similar procedure to the PPL SEP revalidation would work. Every 2 years, a legal requirment to undertake a one or two hour assessment with a driving instructor.... Perhaps licences that are valid for say, 10 years max, then a full re-test.

This would ensure that weaker drivers would perhaps get top up training.

I know that many people havent picked up a copy of the Highway Code since they learnt to drive. In my driving experience to date - which amounts to about 30 years experience, I have seen various new road markings, new signs, and I bought a copy for the library shelf. I am sure that there are lots of drivers out there who havent looked at a Highway code for many years.

I agree that the standard of driving is apalling, particularly round Heathrow, at 0530 every morning!

Is there an easy answer...... NO

Will it standards get worse...... PROBABLY

Drive and Fly defensively.....


Cheers

;)

[A and C]

As one who takes to the road on two as well as four wheels I have found that the driving standards have improved towards bikes since I started riding in 1974. I think that this is largely for social reasons, when I started riding a bike the general attitude to bikers was that they were the scum of the earth and so the attitude that "it's only a (worthless) bike" prervailed and most other drivers did not consider a bike as worth any consideration.

Riding bikes has now become socialy exceptable and so most road users give bikes a bit more room and consideration and most car/bike accidents now are simply that and not as twenty years back where the "it's only a bike" attitude was a major factor.

The safety lobby seems to be obsessed with speed and setting lower speed limmits when this is not always the answer. Near my house there is a twisty road that untill recently had only the national speed limit, on one of the bends is the entrance to a park, exiting from the park it is unsafe to turn right as view of the oncoming traffic is poor and it has resulted in a number of accidents.

So what do the local "safety numptys" do ? Reduce the speed limit on the whole road, all this will do is reduce the speed of impact NOT the number of accidents. The real answer would have been a no right turn at the junction to totaly remove the hazard but this would have ment most of the park users turning in away from the town and driving an extra half mile to reverse direction.

In both the above examples social pressue can be seen to be the "prime mover" not reasond consideration of the facts, in aviaton we have a very good safety culture that is driven by investigation of FACT and largely immune from social pressure.

What is very interesting is that most of the general public consider flying as slightly risky compaired to driving...............perhaps social pressure ?!!

[MichaelJP59]

The problem is that speed cameras are a self-funding and automatic way of addressing one small factor of road safety. It sends out all the wrong signals though that if you drive under the limit, you are driving safely no matter what else you are doing. The most important things in driving are concentration and paying attention, and that's impossible to enforce by automatic machine, only by experienced police officers.

Unfortunately the rise of speed cameras has led to a big decrease in the number of dedicated traffic police:(

[maxdrypower]

Michael , just a quickie you say
One of my issues is with accident reporting - why are serious road traffic accidents never reported on with the thoroughness of aviation accidents, and those reports publicised so lessons can be learned?
I am a PPL holder and also a Vehicle crime officer in a large Police Force , Part of my responsibility is the reporting of serious and fatal RTA's .
I can assure you that these types of Rta's are reprted on with exacltly the same thoroughness of aviation. At the scene of a serious , officers can spend up to 8 hrs gathering information and evidence from the scene prior to roads being opened . I am sure there are many persons on here who can testify to having sat on the motorway or mjor A road for hours having been unlucky enough to be caught behind such an accident . Vehicles once removed from the scene are then subject to expert professional examination and all witnesses are interviewed and reports filed. This is just asummary of what actually goes on which subsequently leads to a coroners inquest and possibly a court case . Each Fatal accident costs in the region of One million quid to investigate and unlimited man hours . These inquests are held in the public domain so any interested party can be privy to the hearing the results are published in the same way. If a member opf the public wishes to know the outcome of an investigation into an air accident unless they read pilot , gasil or AAIB reports etc etc etc they wont be privy to it they have to realistically seek this information out unless its a big boeing that makes headline news its the same as fatal and serious RTA's the information is there if you wish to see it . I wont get into the driver experience training debate , I have seen literally hundereds of mangled bodies in fatal accidents and know all to well there is no real answer save to say that in my county since our illustrious leader disbanded our traffic unit fatal accidents have increased by 300% over a 6 month period , everyone hates a traffic cop ,but it is us that stand on peoples doorsteps at 3am to tell them little billy in his citreon saxo is now a charcoal briquette , but you try stopping him and advising him re his driving .
Not a go at you michael but hope this goes someway to giving you a bit more gen on what does happen with big bumps and traffic cops are not just there to be bastards please dont belittle what is at times a very hard job that that you never really get used to

[MichaelJP59]

Maxdrypower, far from belittling traffic police, I think if you read my post again I'm expressing sadness that there are reduced numbers of dedicated traffic officers - I think they do a fantastic job.

When I was in my early twenties, I used to ride fast 1000cc motorcycles and was once stopped by a traffic officer for speeding through urban streets. He didn't give me a ticket but he did give me a real ear-bashing. That bollocking stuck with me a lot more than a traffic-camera ticket would have done.

Addressing your other points - yes, fatal accidents are fully investigated, but there doesn't seem to be any channel for communicating the lessons to the public, who are by and large, not interested.

[maxdrypower]

yes I should apologise belittling was perhaps to strong a word , unfortunatetly the public perception of the police is not good as they very little understanding of what we do , You are right the public are not interested unless it directly effects them , I once arrested a bloke believe or or not for atempting to drag a dead 75 yr old lady from the road so he could get his car past as he was late for a golf game , Ho hum anyway this is a flying forum so I wont hit you all with my woes , at least youll know my justification for a carrer change to atpl

[kevmusic]

Max, i'm really interested in your comments. I saw a traffic cop interviewed on TV - he related how he had to do what you just described on the doorstep on Christmas Eve. He said it obviously has marked and ruined all that family's Christmases to come, and come to think of it, it didn't do much for his own Christmases either.

But I agree with Michael. RTAs are very low profile for the media, whereas a forced landing in a field where everyone walks away gets the tv cameras there pronto! :*

[IO540]

I think the whole thing can be summarised in terms of public pressure. The death rate on the roads is massive but so many people need to drive that nothing can ever be done about it.

Whereas general aviation could be banned overnight, everywhere except the USA, and the outcry would be limited to about 1% of the population. The other 99% wouldn't care a damn; in many cases Big Brother and Jordan's latest silicone op and other idiot subjects are more relevant to their lives.

I am an ex motorcyclist too (~ 100k miles in total) but wouldn't ride today. Too many cars on the road and too many "blind" drivers.

I have no problem at all with UK police but unfortunately traffic police keeps getting a well earned bad name. I have a string of driving convictions from the pre-CPS days and remember well the crooked methods they used to nail somebody. In one particularly bad case I really wish I had known of a Newton Hearing. Not one to hold grudges but certain officers I have met belong in jail. Most people can name somebody who got fixed up for something.

The other and more current PR disaster is speed cameras - nearly all are sited where people are most likely to speed, on straight stretches of road, especially downhill, and no way are most of the sites selected for accident likelihood. I have a radar and laser detector fitted, of course...

My view is that, so long as the distance is big enough, say 200nm or more, and you have the IFR option, flying is safer than driving.

Compared to driving, flying is a breath of fresh air, despite the mass of often bizzare regs that flying is wrapped up in. Luckily many of those that cause the biggest practical difficulties (those that apply while airborne) are completely unenforceable e.g. entering cloud when under VFR.

Having said all this, we should be grateful that we have cars and planes. Neither would be allowed to be created in today's anally retentive "safety" climate.

As for the quality of reporters, those that work for the local papers are the least intelligent in a profession in which intelligence is not required to start with. The local papers themselves are on the level of Big Brother so a good scandal always goes down well.

[maxdrypower]

Yep do it at least once a week , I also have attended at the scene of a few light aircraft crashes, Not so long ago a homebuilt A/C was roueting to Liverpool from oxford , Engine stopped attempted forced landing but hit power cables , these in turn dropped him softly into a fully matured corn field. He got out and apparently was quoted as saying " OOPS" paramedics took him off a as precaution . I being an aviating type took some pics of the cockpit for any possible investigation so positions of switches etc at time of accident could be recorded. I looked in both fuel tanks and guess what I found ???? left hand tank empty right hand tank completely full . So much for my old friend freda.
No tv cameras turned up though , but had he died im sure it would have been different , The majority of the time the tv dont turn up is they will never be allowed to view the scene , unless its a town cnetre or suchlike where than can actually see it . but on country roads you will very rarely be able to see it from the cordon
IO540 I cant even begin to address your comments Ive never heard the like , you say your not one to hold a grudge the CPS was created in the mid 70's and your still sour ?
Every occupation in the world has bad apples doesnt mean the whole organistaion is