Experimental catagory

[LRdriver II]

Hiya,
Since I have been building Kitcars and am a pilot for a living, somebody asked me why I dont build an airplane...hmm good question? why not..

Soooo.. Since I have SE priviledges on my FAA ticket, I was wondering what the rules are regarding an N-reg experimental catagory aircraft based here in the UK? May I?

The way I read the rules, I am allowed to use my FAA CPL with PPL limitations and fly both N and G reg single engine aircraft here in the UK. Thats sounds good as I dont have to spend alot to get the SE endorsement on my JAA ATPL

Also, what have peoples experiences been with importing 2nd hand Kitplanes to the UK and getting them G-reg'ed under the PFA scheme? Looking at the somewhat difficult PFA website it seems there are some pitfalls but with a thorough inspection by a PFA engineer to clear the aircraft to UK standards.

I am looking at the Midget Mustang single seat taildragger to either build or buy in the US and ship over.

Comments appreciated!

[tonyhalsall]

Your first stop needs to be the PFA mate - not Pprune

www.pfa.org.uk

I can have a pretty good guess at the response

[tangovictor]

LR
from what I understand, importing is a nightmare, as the required engineering checks, can't be varified, therefore expect a compete strip down, and inspection during the rebuild, that you have to do yourself.
There is a list of authorised machines, that you can build here in the UK, downloadable from the PFA, you still have to build 51% though

[ChrisVJ]

So here is a question:

How is the 51% organised in the UK? Basically in Canada if you drill and rivet once on the wing that wing qualifies as home built. Some of the kits that qualify as 'Amateur built' in Canada (the equivalent of 'Experimental') have the wings and fuselage completely built except for one surface panel on each. Since nimble professional fingers (sometimes in the far East) can build things far, far quicker than your average amateur the 'Quick build' kit is very attractive.

I spent 850 hours building my plane from components (a kit) and it was painless, I'd happily build again, maybe an RV quickbuild or something very like it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Soooo.. Since I have SE priviledges on my FAA ticket, I was wondering what the rules are regarding an N-reg experimental catagory aircraft based here in the UK? May I?
The answer is complicated, but if you want the simple version it's "no" !

Also, what have peoples experiences been with importing 2nd hand Kitplanes to the UK and getting them G-reg'ed under the PFA scheme? Looking at the somewhat difficult PFA website it seems there are some pitfalls but with a thorough inspection by a PFA engineer to clear the aircraft to UK standards.
If it's an already UK approved type, and you don't mind stripping it down for a full inspection (covering everything that would have been inspected within the build) you can probably do it.

If it's a new type - see my answer about experimental. Of-course, if you are a chartered aeronautical engineer with time on your hands looking for a hobby...


How is the 51% organised in the UK?

Ambiguously. There is a formal system described in CAP659 (available on CAA's website), but I've never heard of it being rigorously used. Basically the Chief Engineer at PFA or (if it's a microlight) Chief Technical Officer at BMAA has got to be happy that it's at-least 51%. I believe that both tend to prefer a work-log for your first example as evidence.

G

[LRdriver II]

Aha.. thanks guys.

Like I mentioned, the PFA website is a web hard to navigate and keeps opening PDF-files.

The MidgetMustang is on the approved list as I found it on the PFA website, so thats one box ticked. Being an aluminium airplane, I dont think it would be the easiest job to strip down so maybe I should look for one here in the UK fully buildt or take the plunge and build the kit.

[Andy_RR]

How easy is it to migrate from one inspection regime (PFA) to another (say, SAAA), part way through a build process?

The reason I ask is that I have ambitions to build an RV8, but due to my seemingly nomadic lifestyle, I may start the build in the UK, but there is a small chance that I may relocate to Australia for other reasons.

I'm presuming this is a difficult question to answer as it is not a common occurance, but any ideas out there?

Thanks for any poiinters.

A

[Genghis the Engineer]

How easy is it to migrate from one inspection regime (PFA) to another (say, SAAA), part way through a build process?
The reason I ask is that I have ambitions to build an RV8, but due to my seemingly nomadic lifestyle, I may start the build in the UK, but there is a small chance that I may relocate to Australia for other reasons.
I'm presuming this is a difficult question to answer as it is not a common occurance, but any ideas out there?
Thanks for any poiinters.
A

If you know which countries are involved, the best bet is probably to ask the two governing bodies to talk to each other and establish a mutually acceptable common ground. If you are a member of (say) PFA and RAAus, they're both conscientious members organisations so shouldn't have a problem with the concept of working on your behalf.

G

[IO540]

I really know nothing about this area, but recently was talking to an American pilot who operates an Experimental Category aircraft (a small homebuilt jet, no kidding) and he said he can get it approved as a Permit plane in Spain. And that this will give him parking/overflight rights for the rest of Europe.

I know this man quite well; he's not a mug, is a brilliant engineer, pays a lot of attention to detail, and flies to Europe quite a bit. So this avenue is worth checking out.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I really know nothing about this area, but recently was talking to an American pilot who operates an Experimental Category aircraft (a small homebuilt jet, no kidding) and he said he can get it approved as a Permit plane in Spain. And that this will give him parking/overflight rights for the rest of Europe.
I know this man quite well; he's not a mug, is a brilliant engineer, pays a lot of attention to detail, and flies to Europe quite a bit. So this avenue is worth checking out.

There is an ECAC agreement, which in the UK is enacted in Airworthiness Notice 52 which permits overflight across Europe of a amateur-built aeroplanes.

AN52, the UK interpretation of that agreement (which itself seems to have vanished from every filing system in Europe - at-least I've never managed to get hold of a copy), permits foreign amateur-built aeroplanes (equivalent to the US homebuilt-experimental) to operate in the UK for up to a month in any year. But, it assumes that you are a national or resident of the country of registration.

If you have a particular reason to bring an aircraft into the UK (evaluation or sales demos for example) then an application to CAA, and production of domestic documents (licence, registration, permit equivalent) will normally produce an exemption allowing it to be operated for up to 90 days. Beyond that, pretty unlikely you'll get an extension.



I'd suggest that anybody considering this however thinks hard about something. The UK Permit to Fly system consistently provides the highest level of safety in the world for both amateur-built and microlight aeroplanes. There's an enormous selection of what's available here already. Do you really want something different enough to circumvent UK safety standards which, at permit level (as opposed to CofA) are pretty cheap and painless to live with.

G

[SmirkySam]

I'd suggest that anybody considering this however thinks hard about something. The UK Permit to Fly system consistently provides the highest level of safety in the world for both amateur-built and microlight aeroplanes. There's an enormous selection of what's available here already. Do you really want something different enough to circumvent UK safety standards which, at permit level (as opposed to CofA) are pretty cheap and painless to live with.
G
Yep, how about a sleek 2 place composite structure on the UK register,
capable of 150kts in the cruise,
preferably powered by a frugal modern diesel or even turbine,
and because I'm rated for it I'd like to be allowed to fly at night and in IMC.
Smirky Sam :hmm:

[Genghis the Engineer]

If you want to fly night and IMC in the UK you need an aeroplane with a CofA. I can't see any way around that.

From your description, you probably want a Diamond DA40.

G

[SmirkySam]

Since I have SE priviledges on my FAA ticket, I was wondering what the rules are regarding an N-reg experimental catagory aircraft based here in the UK? May I?
There was a German company importing Velocity kits for the D register a couple of years back. Four seater versions too, which are certainly not allowed under the PFA rules. This got me thinking if it was possible to import an experimental aircraft onto a non UK JAA states' register. The French and Italians certainly have slightly different regulations for the VLA types than here in the UK.

Smirky Sam :hmm:

[SmirkySam]

If you want to fly night and IMC in the UK you need an aeroplane with a CofA. I can't see any way around that.
From your description, you probably want a Diamond DA40.
G

I didn't think the DA40 was a 150kt cruise aircraft, but I now see they have a variable pitch version (147kts) and what is 3 knots between friends.

One aircraft avaliable through the PFA is the Sequoia F-8L Falco, but I understand that wood and fabric aircraft should always be hangered?

Smirky Sam :hmm:

[tangovictor]

smirky it seems there's plenty of what I'd consider reasonable aircraft that the PFA / CAA haven't authorised, I'm not saying id want one, but this German craft looks business like, Ok to fly it there ?
http://www.sky-maxx.com/index.html
to name but one

[Genghis the Engineer]

There was a German company importing Velocity kits for the D register a couple of years back. Four seater versions too, which are certainly not allowed under the PFA rules. This got me thinking if it was possible to import an experimental aircraft onto a non UK JAA states' register. The French and Italians certainly have slightly different regulations for the VLA types than here in the UK.

Smirky Sam :hmm:

(1) Can't fly IMC in a VLA aeroplane
(2) Still need a CofA.

G

[SmirkySam]

smirky it seems there's plenty of what I'd consider reasonable aircraft that the PFA / CAA haven't authorised, I'm not saying id want one, but this German craft looks business like, Ok to fly it there ?
http://www.sky-maxx.com/index.html
to name but one
Sorry
200 km/h cruise = 108 kts
So I can't include that one in my list of possibilities.
SS:hmm:

[SmirkySam]

(1) Can't fly IMC in a VLA aeroplane
(2) Still need a CofA.
G
Frustrating isn't it!!
Those North American pilots must be really good to be able to fly an ILS at night in this [http://www.lancair.com/Main/propjet.html]
SS:hmm:

[MichaelJP59]

Frustrating isn't it!!
Those North American pilots must be really good to be able to fly an ILS at night in this [http://www.lancair.com/Main/propjet.html]
SS:hmm:

Remarkable performance for that Lancair propjet...

"Rate of Climb 7000 fpm (solo)"

That's a component of 70 knots straight up!

[IO540]

The key to this is the EU restrictive practice, ensuring a steady flow of CofA fees...