Parc Mcc

[jimpearce]

Anyone done an MCC at london met, oxford or Parc recently and have any comments??
London met seems pretty cheap but is it good??
Thanks,
Jim.

[silverknapper]

Went to met and found it good. The whole multi crew thing is a bit alien at first, and it was only really when I started flying multi crew that I realised they taught a lot of very relevant stuff.
Can be an emotive argument but IMHO the MCC is a box ticking exercise. You will gain little from doing it an a fancy sim ( and Oxfords isn't a proper 737 sim it is an FNPT2, much the same as Met have a king air FNPT2). Get it done as cheaply as possible. There are few ways to save money in flight training - this is the simplest one. No one cares what you did your MCC in.

[Cloud Chaser]

Probably not classed as recent, but I completed my MCC at parc last Summer and found them very prosessional. They use a real B737-200 sim.
Yes its has clocks rather than glass, but the benefit of that is coming from your IR you will feel right at home.
Also the visuals can be put to same by a home PC, but then you're not exaclty there to enjoy the view (that can wait a few months) ;)
The instructors are (or at least were) all line trainers on type with Aer Lingus, Ryanair etc, so know what they're talking about.
Finally in response to the previous post, yes, to a certain extent, the MCC is one last tick in a box. However, I took the view that the MCC is preparation for sim checks and indeed type training, whether on a 737 or not.
But if that's not enough just think of the pleasure you'll get from flying a OEI ILS to a greaser of a landing :ok:
(PS i'm not affiliated with parc in any way.)

[Farrell]

Just had a friend come back from Parc and he is very happy.

[Send Clowns]

Spoke to a friend yesterday who put his success in a Jet2 sim ride down to the fact he had completed his MCC on a heavy jet (the L1011). Others on the same selection day had used a small turboprop and not passed. There is a difference!

[silverknapper]

I refuse to believe that successs in a 737 sim ride is down to having done an MCC in a tristar. They are completely different aircraft. Perhaps your mate was just better than the others. You spend the vast majority of time on an MCC adjusting to the multi crew environment. There is very little time to spend learning to fly heavy jets. If it was that easy why bother with type ratings?
Get a basic MCC then do a sim sesson or two on a jet sim dedicated to an airline assessment profile.
I know of a few guys in the last 6 months who have gone from MCC at Met/W'hampton/M'flight straight into a job. Not one thinks a jet sim is advantageous. Indeed most low hours guys are kidding themselves if they think a jet job is waiting for them so why not train on a TP sim?

[razzele]

MCC on a proper sim is worth it.

Definetely recommend using a raw data sim, improves your flying no end and its 20hrs of great flying experience.


good luck

[Send Clowns]

Silver

You have 5 hours of adjusting to heavy jets in an MCC, that is why the course is 5 hours shorter if flown in conjunction with a type rating! That is good preparation for flying any jet sim ride. Not sure what his sim ride was on, but I would certainly say that my small amount of time in a 767 simulator was not that different to fly than a 1011 (with direct lift control off of course!), and helped me come to terms with it quickly on the MCC.

We are both instructors, so fly very much by the basics of power and attitude, so all aircraft of comparable performance become much more similar. One difference he felt was the speed and fluency of procedures he learnt in MCC - the whole point of MCC, so comprising 15 hours practice! Those procedures are related to company SOPs and the departure or arrival being flown, not type-specific. However they are different in a jet - if only because of the pace.

[TRISTAR1]

Have you flown many jets silverknapper?

Just about all jets fly the same, they are designed to be similar so that line crews will not have much trouble transitioning to different types.

If you can fly a B727 then apart from assymetric problems on the bigger twins, you should be able to cope with anything else.

The reason that the L1011 makes such a good trainer for MCC is the size of the flight deck and the ability to automate moste of the 3rd crew members duty.

Students completing their course on the Tristar normally have no difficulty with the B727 or the B747 (all 3 in the same building).

The B727 is used by many airlines for sim assesment because of the low cost and availability as is the BAC 1-11 at Cranebank.

I know that this subject has been done to death, but you do learn a lot about jet handling using a proper simulator.

Yes I do have a vested interest as I teach MCC on the L1011, but I can honestly say that it is well worth anybody spending a couple of hundred more to get that experience in a 'proper' sim.

As far as it being easy, ask someone who has jumped into a jet for the first time, they would be lucky to keep it right side up, but it only takes a few hours to get the hang of it.

The reason that a type rating takes so long (40 hours) is to cover all of the system failures. You have very little time to explore the handling qualities.

[GusHoneybun]

Oh pur-lease!

To say that an MCC done in a jet sim is the benchmark that judges how someone performs is complete paap.
How much sleep you had, how stressful the drive to the centre, the row you had with your wife/husband before setting off, how hungry you are. These are much more relevent. How good your IR training was, how current your skills are, remembering the correct entry to an NDB hold. Probably more important than whether you have flown a TP or Jet sim with some generic SOP's.
If some guy you know did a jet sim and has got a job, then that's great. Methinks it's got something to do with him being a good pilot.

[silverknapper]

Tristar1

Why has no one realised this before? Here are airlines wasting millions on type ratings each year. All they had to do was go to you for an MCC and all their troubles would be over. I'm surprised no one has realised this before now. I wonder when this will click at the CAA. Don't go to flight safety for your 737 ng type rating - go to tristar1.
The reason that the L1011 makes such a good trainer for MCC is the size of the flight deck
And not because you make more money if more people come to you?
and the ability to automate moste of the 3rd crew members duty.
Or alternatively go on a sim where there is no need to automate the 3rd crew member because there isn't one. After all we all fly 2 crew these days.

[Send Clowns]

Silverknapper

I thought we were having a sensible discussion here, not going off on one completely, and each wildly exagerating what the other says. The logical conclusion of your exageration is that anyone who has an MCC and passes a sim ride needs no type rating at all. You also completely ignore his explanation of the type rating course, and I suspect he knows rather more than you do about the issue.

Let's keep this helpful, instead of defending entrenched positions!

By the way the L1011 sim Tristar refers to is extremely busy, so I don't think he needs any advertising.

[BillieBob]

From the TRTO's point of view there is no discernible difference between those trainees who have completed the MCC course on a jet sim/fnpt and those who have used a turboprop, whether in MCC skills or aircraft handling. However, when it comes to comparing those who have been taught by current airline pilots and those who have not, the difference is striking.

[jimpearce]

thanks for the last half dozen replies they were so relevant to my original question!!!!
Jim.

[jamesharlow]

My coments are simple -the MCC is the nicest part of a frozen ATPL licence - right.
After the stress of passing the dreaded IR test you want to end the whole thing off on a good note - right. So if it where all a 'big game' and you got a choice of 'playing' on some silly torbo prop thingy ma bob or a big jet engine aeroplane like a B737 or Tristar, what would you choose - I know what I would - respecting the fact that it is not a game!
Also, put yourself in a potential airline recruiters boots - try to imagine how they see things - pretend you are the recruiter, and take a good look at yourself and your CV, and then you should make the right choice

[Lee Frost]

But is the recruiter acting for a TP or a jet airline?

Surely the onus of the MCC is on the crew interaction element. You can spend the saving on some dedicated sim time tailored to your target airline?

I'm going to be struggling for cash by that stage anyway :}


LF

[TRISTAR1]

Silverknapper.

I do not know who you are, but you seem to have some pretty strong views.

I also suggest that you read my post more carefully before you attack me.

I did not say that an MCC course replaces a type rating, far from it.

What I did say was that 20 hours in a full motion jet sim will help you (if you have never operated a jet) when it comes time to do a type rating.

Type ratings are there to teach you how to handle abnormal operations on a particular type, not to teach you basic jet handling. Training Captains do not have time during a type rating to train you in the basics (which is why airlines prefer pilots to have at least 1500 hours preferably on larger twins etc.) If a training Captain has to spend 5 or 10 hours teaching you the basics then that leaves precious little time to complete the course in the 40 hours. If you fail or require more training then the training Captain will have to explain the budget and time over run to his (her) boss.

I do not have to advertise on here as I have more than enough work. I am currently training up 2 more MCC instructors because we are so busy. Also 90% of my students are referals from other students who have completed the course.

I also agree that a lot of it is to do with the instruction.

For your information I am a recently retired (early) check and training Captain. I have 14,000+ hours and have operated 4 different medium/ heavy jets both as F/O and Captain. I have also worked for 2 major airlines.

Thank you for sticking up for me Send Clowns.

[Alex Whittingham]

May I re-emphasise Billie-Bob's and TRISTAR1's posts, particularly the latter. Get taught by people who know what they are talking about, not bull sh*tters, and contrary to Billie-Bob's opinion I would say, if you have a choice, do an MCC in a real jet simulator rather than a generic turboprop, the L1011 would be ideal. Its not much of an edge, but it's something, particularly if you have an interview combined with a sim check in a jet.

[bakerloo]

Hi Guys
As part of the MCC course with parc, they look at various case studies. Does anybody know wich accidents, incidents or events they use.

Cheers B:ok:

[Jimmy Breeze]

I did mine at Oxford

The sim is a generic 737-400 which isnt too bad
but its made by Frasca so don't expect it to be Boeing standard.

Instruction is good there, but I hear the price can be shakey.
Maybe if you wait until the Seneca's all die once more they'll cut the price in half again ;)

[PAPI-74]

Just a quick thread about PARC in Dublin. I am off to see them soon about their MCC on the 737-200, as I hear that it is quite a thorough course. Has anyone had any recent dealings with them?
I must admit, the feedback I have received has all been positive.

[Bearcat]

MCC is another box you have to tick as you climb the ladder. PARC are a well known outfit. Just get the course done, paper work signed and keep climbing.

[theWings]

Bearcat,

I know what you're saying, but I gotta disagree with you a bit there, the MCC is much more than a tick in the box.

I think it's as important in its simulation of multi-crew commercial (not necessarily airline) operations as it is in its simulation of flight. There's alot to be learnt by those who have to take the course (ie. those who haven't the experience to be exempt from it). Although it can be a bit contrived, it's a good place to make the required attitude adjustment from 'I' to 'We'.

I know all that might sound a bit bullsh1tty but my point is that different providers put different emphasis on different aspects of flight ops and that's where choosing to suit your career plans (if you've got that far!) is important.

theWings

[PAPI-74]

That's what I was thinking. My plan, right or wrong, was to go for Ryanair and I know PARC are the people to give me the best prep with SOP's and hands on flying. I didn't want it to turn into another 7 page Ryanair thread, but briefly I can't afford not to got for the long term investment. If it doesn't work out, then I will submit and start the scrap over a TP job. If I were to agree with you Bearcat, I wouldn't be going to PARC. I used to share your view, but as the Wings pionted out, if you specify your intentions, a good FTO will cater. I could always save £1000 and go to Grabair on their FNPT2 King Air at 7pm when the sausages had finished with it.
Thanks for your input both of you.
JD

[smoothkpilot]

Hello Just finished CPL/IR at Wycombe Air Centre, anyone know the cost of the MCC course at PARC on their 737 all singing and dancing sim in Ireland. Would be grateful to hear from anyone who's completed an MCC course with these guys recently.

Many thanks:ok:

[Vmd]

Great course cant recommend it enough. Pm me if you wish to know more.

VMD:ok:

[EGAC_Ramper]

Yep just back last week from the Parc MCC,enjoyed every minute and worth it in my opinion.As mentioned £3,500 is about right,managed to score return flights to Dublin for £30 return(most of it tax) and accommodation they arrange if you need it and works out at 8 nights 360Euro's.


Regards :ok:

[Procrastinator]

Right I have waited for over 5 months for my money to be returned. After paying the 1500 Euro deposit I was off to attend the MCC course in Ireland. However due to problems in my wifes pregnancy I was forced to cancel the weekend of the course. I expected to pay the usual cancelation fee of 500 Euros but PARC thinks its reasonable to take the whole amount. This just goes to show you that they don't own their Sims. My advice is don't leave any money down at all, they are blinded by what they see as good business management (known in Ireland as pure greed), this is a small industry and not untouchable to the media which unknown to them I worked in for several years before aviation. I would like to hear from anybody else who has had problems with Rogue aviation traders this is the part of a "door step" T.V series on Rogue Courses from Aviation training to language courses. As far as my problem with PARC is concerned they have had their chance. I hope they have a nice smile for the cameras. Please Pm me with all your unpleasant experiences

[sam34]

hi! :}

excuse me but I don't understand why a lot of people are intersted by Parc...
Ok their instructors are experimented etc, so they help you to find a job ?
Doing a MCC course with Parc give you a best chance about a job ?

thank you! :}

[Gullyone]

I teach MCC at Oxford and from speaking to the students they seem to think that having flown the OAT pretend 737 sim put them in a good position when taking an airline assesment trip. If you have not flown a jet type sim the assesment can come as a big surprise. The L1011 and a proper 737 sim would be better but if you only have light aircraft experience even the OAT 737 is good. Its a bit like custard, it does move about a bit!
Their opinion is that its worth the extra cash.

[PAPI-74]

Sam,
Having now done the MCC at PARC, I can say that the sales spin about a job is just that....spin. I think that is partly due to the market and the lack of Training Captains and lack of space on the Type Ratings. I did have my details taken by a Ryan Air Capt. but no job yet.
I have now started instructing till the Spring and I will try again, but I am not going to pay for the TR....yet.

Nice SIM though and some airlines use the sim for the sim checks.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
The PARC course is pretty good, just forget the bull about getting you a job or anything.The instructors are pilots, active and retired,from Aer Arann, Ryanair and Aer Lingus.RE and Ryanair use it for sim checks. The sim used to be owned by Avtec and is now owned by Simtech (some of the same characters are involved) and quite a few pilots owe their start in RE to having spent time and money in the sim.(hint,hint!).Cityjet are alleged to have installed a 146 sim in the same building and it will be interesting to see if competition affects the price of the 737 sim (about E300/hr).The sim building is owned by Aer Lingus and houses an active A-320 sim (no, you can't get to use it, for love nor money) and an inactive BAC 1-11.
regards
TDD

[escobar]

Hey going to parc next week and never thought to ask LL if it was 8 consecutive days or if they had the weekends off. I need to know as i'm about to book my flight, also anybody know of any cheap places to stay whilst i'm there? Just taken a cancellation booking for the course so have no notes or details of it yet, which is why i am probably asking questions explained in the notes

Thanx

[escobar]

Thanks for the reply, not having my car means that i will either need to find a place close by or a place that has good transport links, i assume that the course is at reasonable times whereby there still would be public transport available? Almost tempted to just ryanair it across each day, it works out cheaper

[escobar]

Can anybody tell me whether or not this is a 9-5 or is it odd times, need to know as trying to book flights and hotels at the moment, never knew dublin was so expensive
thanx

[J Lieber]

The first two days of Groundschool are 9-5 but the Sim sessions are not, they are done in four hour blocks, the first one starting around 7:30am and the last one ending at 11:30pm. It will just depend on what times they assign for you.

[J Lieber]

I just read that bit of your post where you said you were thinking about flying out each day - you would be mad to, you will be pretty tired buy the end of each session and the last thing that you would want to do is fly back and for every day. Bite the bullet and book into a B&B.

[escobar]

Thanks for that, better try and get an early flight home the day after then. I was only joking about flying home each day but its crazy to think that it would work out cheaper if i did

[High Wing Drifter]

Just give LL a call on both counts.