View Full Version : Wedding protocol
endplay
4th Apr 2006, 12:41
2 RAF officers getting wed with a guard of honour. A last minute hitch is 1 of the guard has to drop out. Can a FS guest step up to the mark or is it officers only for the sword bit. The "big day" is drawing close.
A genuine query to help out a colleague - can the collective wisdom of Pprune assist?
South Bound
4th Apr 2006, 12:51
Depends how concerned you are with protocol. My understanding is that anything to do with swords is reserved for officers (in the RAF), but hey, if a pile of them have been signed out who will know? While this may sound a little flippant and there are those that like to stick with protocol, my thoughts would be with the marrying couple and giving them the send-off they wanted and I wouldn't worry too much about the detail.
Now sat here waiting for the inevitable tirade about standards!!
Tombstone
4th Apr 2006, 13:15
I completely agree with South Bound.
The couple getting married are the real issue here, wouldn't worry too much about the 'protocol' Endplay, just make sure they enjoy the day!:ok:
Agree with above - the day is not about QR's but about making the couple and the guests dumbfounded by your smart turnout and fine Guard of Honour. Most guests won't even know what a F/Sgt is.
G
Northern Circuit
4th Apr 2006, 13:46
he will need to borrow some *brown* whoops white gloves
buoy15
4th Apr 2006, 13:48
Tombstone
Absolutely right!
They are probably more concerned with the foreplay:)
South Bound
4th Apr 2006, 13:54
Tut tut, white gloves with RAF swords old boy...
Gainesy
4th Apr 2006, 14:11
Hey, what's wrong with starting a new tradition? (Though said FS better have some practice to avoid doling out involuntary vasectomy).
And don't forget to send some pics of the occasion to the SWO.:uhoh: :E
endplay
4th Apr 2006, 14:22
Thanks for the advice everyone, the gist of which matched that which I offered.
forget
4th Apr 2006, 15:25
Mummy and little girl were walking past the church one Saturday morning. Chap from the local rowing club was exiting church, with new bride, through an arch of oars.
'Mummy look at all them oars'.
'Them's not oars dear. Them's bridesmaids'.:ok:
BEagle
4th Apr 2006, 15:41
A blighter with an officer's sword?
Whatever next.....
Admin_Guru
4th Apr 2006, 15:56
"Whatever next....."
.....an ex-Rodney with an opinion!
Pontius Navigator
4th Apr 2006, 18:05
Like the rule that came out that airmen had to wear blue shirts with uniform if they got married in uniform.
Who care who dares!
JessTheDog
4th Apr 2006, 19:06
Why can't someone hold two swords? :}
I was one of the sword-wielding ones at a wedding in Edinburgh Castle and we told the bemused tourists that Sean Connery was about to fly in by helicopter.
Rumsfeld
4th Apr 2006, 20:45
You complete and utter sad person, the happy couple matter on the day, not some ancient, snobbish archaic ritual. Thank the lord I'm not invited to your shindig.
Ms Margo Ledbetter
Surbiton.
Specaircrew
4th Apr 2006, 21:53
I presume the FS will have bulled the Officers shoes first and then done a bit of door opening duty :)
doubledolphins
4th Apr 2006, 21:54
Give the FS a cutlass.
RileyDove
4th Apr 2006, 22:26
Does the RAF still have genuine swords or have they been outsourced from the nearest branch of Toys R Us !
Real swords of course, it is difficult to back stab with a placky one.
WhiteOvies
5th Apr 2006, 14:42
Doing the deed myself shortly, mixed honour guard of RAF and RN. Comments please?
Endplay, pass on regards from someone else about to sign their life away (again!) :ok:
South Bound
5th Apr 2006, 14:52
Shouldn't be any issues with a mixture of dark and light blue. The swords are different, which is a bit of a faff meaning you can't just hire a bootful from Innsworth.
Out of interest, does anyone actually own their own sword? Why?
Cambridge Crash
5th Apr 2006, 16:10
I have one - was given it many moons ago - and used to display it proudly above the fireplace. Frequent moves and a process of demilitarising my life has relegated it to 'storage'. I did consider selling I but was worried that some spotty wannabee would get some sad vicarious thrill from owning it. One day my son might enjoy owning it along with the attendance medals that I accumulated - both Imperialistic hangovers. Sadly I lost the belt and hangers at RAF Leeming ('borrowed') in the early 1990s. Replacement set is about £400, apparently.
Oh, also wore it for my wedding.
CC
airborne_artist
5th Apr 2006, 17:05
My father was given his (which I also used, and now have) by his father, I think, on passing out of BRNC. I found a Midshipman's dirk when I went through his stuff, which I'd never seen. By the time I found the dirk it was too late to ask where it came from :sad:
claude liardet
5th Apr 2006, 20:29
I can't believe I'm reading this. It's a military uniform, not bloody fancy dress. With all due respect to your FS buddy, why don't you give him some gold braid and a VC for the day as well, why stop at just the sword?
Saddened and amazed.
buoy15
7th Apr 2006, 16:25
Riley Dove
Don't be a Prat lad
Of course they are - they're made by Wilkinson, who also donate the annual "Sword of Peace" and make razor blades which the majority of HM forces don't use - However, could be worth a peerage?:)
Swords or not, don't forget what Stradling's Customs of the Services has to say in Chapter 5 entitled 'Relationship between Officers and Men'. It makes entertaining reading in the 3rd Millennium:
'[Officers] must learn to be friendly with their men without loss of dignity or respect, always realising that 'undue familiarity breeds contempt'.
'However charming they may be, you must make no attempt to know your men or their families 'socially', that is by visiting their houses as a guest or other form of social liaison.
'...officers are forbidden to drink with their non-commissioned officers and men. Never remain in a public bar if other ranks are present or enter. You may achieve cheap popularity by drinking in in a pub with your men, but you will lose respect .... when drink loosens tongues.'
Customs of the Services was first published in 1939 and was amended a few times after the War. My edition was published in 1962 (cost 10/6, or 11/- by post) but I would say that much of it was out of date by the time I got hold of it in 1966. When I was in MOD in the early 80s attempts were being made to update it properly to take account of the general shift in social attitudes but I don't know if anything came of it.
Back to swords, and I have my father's Army sword with both leather and polished steel scabards. During the War my father 'relieved' a Japanese officer of his very fine samurai-style sword, which he then swopped with a Yank for his Remington .45, which he then swopped for a truncheon, which he then threw away for fear of being 'done' by the police for possession of an offensive weapon. Ironic, that.
I guess I am breaking the law when I have a Beer with my Dad (A WOFF).
RileyDove
7th Apr 2006, 21:09
Thanks for clearing that one up Buoy15 - I was hoping to inject a degree of humour into a subject that some obviously take too seriously! I suppose a guard of honour with some SA80's wouldnt quite cut the mustard?
Claude,
Couldn't agree more, and well put.
Flap62
7th Apr 2006, 21:18
Frankly don't see the problem, after all - this rank business doesn't have any place in todays Military does it? I mean, it was all very well in the old days but we're all equals now aren't we and frankly the rules and regulations aren't worth the paper they're written on any more. If we all work together, why can't we all live and socialise together?
I think that the FS should have every right to take his place in the Guard just as we should have every right to wander into his mess whenever we want and put an arm round him and call him "my old mucker".
Loopdeloop
8th Apr 2006, 03:39
If one's worried about affending anyone and there's a retired officer on the guest list then it states in QR's that a retired officer may don his old uniform for weddings and funerals........if he/she still fits it!:O
Dogfish
8th Apr 2006, 10:16
Ask the SWO - he is after all the Guardian of all things ceremonial. If he says yes, then do it. If he says no, then don't. I mean you have to ask his permission (and OC RAFP) at the end of the day to wear uniform for a wedding whether you're the one getting married or attending. Good luck for the day and best of luck for the future. Hope the sun shines hot and the wine pours cold :D
rudekid
8th Apr 2006, 10:29
Can anybody tell me what a WOFF is?
Used to have a teacher by that name...:E
Endplay - sorry, despite all that's been said, Royal Air Force Flight Sergeants are not entitled or permitted to carry swords for any reason. Nothing to stop him standing in the guard of honour.
BOF
Tourist
8th Apr 2006, 10:41
You mean people get married in that uniform!?
A sword makes no difference. You cannot polish a turd.
Flap62
8th Apr 2006, 11:35
Unless things have altered radically in the few years since I left, I cannot imagine any FS worth his salt who would accept the offer of carrying a sword.
Tourist, sorry, I may be a bit obtuse, but exactly what do you mean by your last sentence?
Tourist
8th Apr 2006, 14:33
RAF uniform = hideous
A fairly uninspired bit of banter I admit, but surely not that confusing?
Mmmm.
Similar to the uniform worn by those few who won the BoB.
A free country, I suppose...
SubdiFuge
8th Apr 2006, 15:54
FJJP
2 x Naval Squadrons in the BoB - so I guess you are partly correct!
Tourist
8th Apr 2006, 17:06
Not impugning the heroism, just the dress sense!:ok:
sarmonkey
8th Apr 2006, 17:43
We've already got the best people; if we had the best uniform as well then the RN would be even more bitter....
RileyDove
9th Apr 2006, 08:45
FJJP - Strange world isn't it! During WWII RAF Flight Sergeants I believe fixed bayonets on at least one occasion but regulations say they cannot hold a sword! I think possibly the RAF could bin all this sword nonsence and get on with being a modern fighting force !
I have to agree with the criticism of the RAF uniform(s) from a purely sartorial perspective. It really is time that they were made out of a more practical material than than that bl**dy awful barathea rubbish, and they should abandon the belt on No 1s too. And before any more fishheads jump on the bandwagon, yours make you look like Customs officers and traffic wardens, so if you're happy with that.............
Tourist
9th Apr 2006, 10:30
Nice try Zoom, but you know in your heart it's not true. Even I can pull in Rig.
A set of Gieves 7's comes with a cast iron trapping warranty, valid worldwide. Certified to give girls a throb on in under 60 seconds or your money back.
How did you manage that, Tourist? I didn't even get a 'Suits you, sir' let alone a guarantee the last time I was at No 1 Savile Row.
ATCO IN THE VOY
9th Apr 2006, 14:21
:{ Guys, you are making me cry with laughter reading this thread. I'm a girl. Can I have a sword too??? hahaha
Tourist
9th Apr 2006, 16:13
ATCO,
No you aren't.
You are in the Military and your legs are probably on the wrong way up.:E
ATCO IN THE VOY
9th Apr 2006, 16:56
Tourist!
Thats no way to speak about a nco wraf!! tut tut
Strictly Jungly
9th Apr 2006, 21:42
We've already got the best people; if we had the best uniform as well then the RN would be even more bitter....
Funniest thing I have heard all week!!!!!!!!!!!!!
sarmonkey
10th Apr 2006, 15:45
Thank christ for that - I thought I'd never get a bite....
ATCO, just for the record, no you aren't. There is no such thing as the WRAF [note the correct use of capital letters] - you are a female NCO [note the correct use of capital letters] in the RAF. And no, you can't have a sword unless you go for a commission...
Rileydove - don't you think we have ditched enough tradition? And don't you think the Brigade of Guards have another role as well as standing round as camera fodder for the tourists [try getting near HM waving a gun about - could get very terminal].
SubdiFuge, I humbly apologise. Of course there were other Services and nationalities involved [inc the RN Sub Lt with artificial legs - Bader was not unique in that respect!]. The ref was to the RAF uniform in particular, hence my reply.
Climebear
10th Apr 2006, 19:03
[QUOTE=FJJP]ATCO, just for the record, no you aren't. There is no such thing as the WRAF [note the correct use of capital letters] - you are a female NCO [note the correct use of capital letters] in the RAF. And no, you can't have a sword unless you go for a commission...
QUOTE]
Not strictly true. There are (albeit very few) occasions when an RAF WO can wear a sword.
And these are? [I genuinely don't know and don't have access to the books]...
BEagle
10th Apr 2006, 19:55
When an officer has dropped it?
SWOs don't like litter! Or didn't when they were still known as SWOs, rather than whatever that stupid new huggy-fluffy management w@ankspeak term is...
claude liardet
10th Apr 2006, 20:22
WOs wear swords on parade, they just never draw them.
tablet_eraser
10th Apr 2006, 22:31
There are different patterns of sword for officers up to Gp Capt, Air Officers and WOs. I think the difference is usually in the hand-guard, although AOs have different scabbards too.
covec
10th Apr 2006, 23:10
...a man's a man fae a' that...
Do what you think your family/conscience/heart/head will let you live with.:ok:
Flap62
11th Apr 2006, 06:18
You're absolutely right. You should dress him up as a Japanese Admiral if it matches the bridesmaid's dresses.
teeteringhead
11th Apr 2006, 07:37
And these are? Warrant Officers in Standard Parties for one IIRC ..... and there are shorter swords for girlies and short blokes....
Rossian
11th Apr 2006, 14:45
Dear God haven't they got wed yet? This seems to have been rumbling on for ages. I do hope you'll let us all know how it went and what was finally resolved.
The Ancient Mariner
Ben Parkin
11th Apr 2006, 19:35
When i stupidly got married my guard of honour (all rockapes) held chrome Bayonets .....just for the giggle factor in the photos , i even cut the cake with one too, does it really matter in the end though, as a ps we also broke uniform regs by wearing all our foreign parachute wings we had earned above our right breast pockets , my head shed all thought it hilarious , and the boys were trapping like ten men when they strutted through the town before and after the ceremony, Do what ya like its your day.
Flap62
11th Apr 2006, 20:55
If you choose to get married in a Moss Bros rental then it's your day. If you get married in Betty's Blues then you have other responsibilities.