SKYWEST A DEGREE.

[novicef]

Just read something from an earlier thread. Is it true that Skywest require HSC in Physics but are actively persuing a policy to recruit degree holders?

I know its happening overseas but I always thought we put more emphasis on handling skills.

[ThoughtCrime]

Sign of the times I believe.

How much handling is involved in modern jets as opposed to other operational management tasks?

Its not just flying the aeroplane anymore.

TC

[Non Normal]

How much handling is involved in modern jets as opposed to other operational management tasks?
Its not just flying the aeroplane anymore.


Not sure whether having a degree would make one a better manager of aircraft though.

[MBA747]

The Maths & Physics requirements have been around for years.

However, it was only a matter of time before a degree became a requirement. It's happened overseas. In the US airlines and airforce it's a requirement, you will find most airline cadet schemes require cadets to have a tertiary education so why shouldn't it happen here?

Look upon it as a culling process. Young pilots joining will be in the right seat for years before obtaining a command, so thousands of hours of SINGLE pilot is no longer necessary.

Further it narrows down the recruiting process, with the gross oversupply of pilots we have, airlines could make it a basic requirement and will not have any trouble recruiting pilots of the right calibre. The days of the Year10 airline pilot are over.

[The Bunglerat]

The requirement to have Year 12 and/or a degree has no bearing on a person's abilities to make a good pilot, any more than passing the QF psych and skills guarantees a better calibre of pilot for QF. I know plenty of excellent drivers out there who have neither. The only reason these operators insist on applicants meeting the additional criteria is... because they can. End of story.


(Incidentally, I passed psych & skills - so I am not providing the opinion of someone with a chip on his shoulder, but anyway that's by the by).

[Led Zep]

I believe that Skywest have this as what you may call an unofficial requirement...unofficial for now.

[Mr.Buzzy]

The days of the Year10 airline pilot are over.

You think?!!!! Look at all the air disasters that have been averted by "the right calibre" of pilot with his bollox uni degree!

It's a practical job to be done by practical people!

Unfortunately, it's usually the tossers that tool about in uni courses trying to re-invent the wheel that ultimately wind up in recruiting positions.

Young pilots joining will be in the right seat for years before obtaining a command, so thousands of hours of SINGLE pilot is no longer necessary.

Maybe not, I sure as hell know who I'd rather have sitting beside me on a s#@tty black night in Cairns! It isn't the uni genius that has never given him/herself a fright yet either!

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzz

[novicef]

So if they are going to persue Degree holders, I guess the next qualification will be an Instructor Rating requirement. I can see the thinking. These grads when they progress further on to commands and say training positions, will fullfill a CASA requirement of having an instructor background.

I believe that CASA requirement for an Instructor Rating qual is on its way for future Check/Training Capts.

[160knots]

Oh boy! what's next? Soon it will be a specific degree like business or accountancy so that the pilots can understand the business end of things.

So if they can get pilots with a business degree or something similar,ATPL and Instructor rating with twin/IFR trg approval and say an unofficial age limit like they had in TAA of 27, they would have everything they want.

I guess I should have done a degree after all.

[alidad]

They used to have a bloke who had a degree- but he failed his jet endorsement, so wasn't much use to him was it.....

[ThoughtCrime]

You think?!!!! Look at all the air disasters that have been averted by "the right calibre" of pilot with his bollox uni degree!

It's a practical job to be done by practical people!

Unfortunately, it's usually the tossers that tool about in uni courses trying to re-invent the wheel that ultimately wind up in recruiting positions.


So if you have a degree, you clearly lack practical skills? A little narrow minded. In fact most if not all of the degree qualified pilots I know slogged it / are slogging it out in GA like everyone else - and gaining the "necessary" experience / skills. I'm one of them.

Its just a matter of those who dont have one dont like the ones that do.

TC

[pilotdude09]

I was talking about this to my instructor today and as he said how the bloody hell can a GA pilot afford to get a degree much less a student loan? then you will be paying it off untill your on a decent wage.

Is physics a MUST for Skywest?

[300ER]

Well for a time there Virgin Atlantic head of HR required pilots to have a Degree. I know a couple of pilots who had the type rating and the experience on type but missed out due not having the degree.

Hopefully she has moved on. Wasn't like that before she arrived.

[Captain Fun]

I sure as hell know who I'd rather have sitting beside me on a s#@tty black night in Cairns! It isn't the uni genius that has never given him/herself a fright yet either!

As ThoughtCrime touched on, just because a pilot has a uni degree doesn't mean that they are not going to have to 'slog it out' in GA if they actually want to take that degree somewhere.

Mr Buzzy i think a bit more knowledge and understanding of a topic is required if you are going to carry on with the outlandish statements like above. Those 'uni tossers' will be your boss soon enough, thats if they would want to employ someone so narrow minded.

At the end of the day i know which side of the degree/no degree fence i would prefer to be on. :ok:

[tinpis]

If I had a degree I think I would be looking for a proper job.

[Mr.Buzzy]

A degree is just like HSC. Another hoop. A degree will not help you pass a simulator assessment.
The selection process at most airlines is a remarkably practical thing. You get the chance to talk about yourself, show all your pretty certificates, answer some easy questions, talk about yourself some more, spruke on about your impressive CV and maybe even giggle about a few mutual acquaintances.
Once all this nice stuff is over and your ego is well and truely stroked, it's off to the simulator for an assessment. If you can't dance the dance, what good was all of your smooth talking?

Anybody read Yeager's book? No degree, no space program for Yeager. Anyone actually think Yeager is no good?

It is a practical job!

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[ThoughtCrime]

Nobody is saying a degree will help you pass a simulator assessment.

Or getting in on a ****ty black night in Cairns.

It is a practical job, yes. However your example of Yeager just illustrates my point. I dont think "Stick and Rudder" (which he no doubt was incredible at) would have meant anything once out of the atmosphere!

To modify your example, I know who I'd much rather have with me in a damaged space shuttle on a decaying orbit. The degree qualified person who actually knows the nuts & bolts behind the nuts & bolts the whole thing is put together with!

Just look at Australasian Jet's Flight Crew Requirements.

Pilots with approximately 1500 hours total time and 500 hours of multi engine command are sourced for casual positions within the company. Pilot employment is not assessed on flying ability alone and experience in one or more of the following fields is an advantage:

• Quality assurance.
• Internal Auditing.
• Human factors, CRM.
• Computer literate and I.T experience.
• Safety Management.
• Fatigue Management.
• Aviation Management Degree.
• Document control.

Pilots who are looking for a career in aviation need to stand out from the crowd and in order to do this you need to specialise in something other than just flying the aircraft. Aviation is a very competitive industry (especially for pilots). Companies such as Australasian Jet employ enthusiastic, motivated and positive pilots who are multi skilled.

I'll say again, [I]Its not just flying the aeroplane anymore.

TC

Edit: Spelling and grammar

[Mr.Buzzy]

I'm not being critical of anyone wanting to further their education; difficult as it may seem, I have actually done some myself. I am just very critical of a company ( in Australia particularly ) that will regard flying experience as less important to an "Aviation Diploma or Degree"
It was touched on earlier, a degree is little more than a way to cull numbers and not to find the right person for the job.
If such training was deemed so important, why isn't it part of our regulator's syllabus?
Why can I hold an ATPL without a 4 year degree?
Why is an ATPL holder flying in command credited with almost 3 quarters of the degree course content?
From what I've seen, some of the guys with degrees, seem to have the most to say on how the company needs to be managed or run. This can become very tiresome after a few days of OPERATING AEROPLANES.
Resource management, human factors etc, all great stuff but please explain how writing your own GPS co-ordinate program, or knowing the nitty gritty of business accounting will help you size-up the best way safely approach Cairns on that same dark, angry night?
Sorry, I'd still rather have the bush pilot that has scared himself a few times beside me.
ThoughtCrime. I'm not suggesting that you are not doing it tough, or learning your art the hard way. In fact I have the highest respect for folks that can endure the GA dribble and still be motivated enough to study further. I just disagree with a certain companies policy in a location known for its "an@lness" to suddenly move the goalposts yet again for aspiring applicants. Particularly when many have well and truely done the years!
As far as Ausjets requirements go. Well it looks great on paper but keep in mind that they will also happily employ a 200 hour guy willing to sweep the hangar floor.

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[Track Direct]

Yep Buzzy you're on the money son ! These tossers who want to compare uni degrees with aviation experience are way off the mark.......I sure as sh*t know who I'd rather have beside me on that dark stormy night as well and it ain't Mr read all da books !!!

There is NO substitute for actual flying experience when the sh*t hits the fan ( same goes for most professions ) would you rather the bloke whose wet behind the ears, or the fella whose had 20 years experience on the job ?

I'm not against education/degrees/diplomas etc all are admirable, but NONE will ever be preferred over "hands on" experience !:ok:

[Monopole]

I know many people with Degrees, and unfortunately you seem to require one more and more these days.

While some with Aviation Degrees have moved on to better things, the majority have worked shoulder to shoulder with me (without a degree) for the past ten years and are still in GA.:{ :{ :{

There are 5 people I taught who progressed REALLY quick into some awsome paying flying jobs (1 went onto a biz jet, but now all 5 are flying wide bodies) and a six pack if you can guess what they had a degree in..








Three in IT and
Two in Law.

As far as an Aviation degree goes I am with Mr Buzzy. I am glad I have three years practical experience over the bloke who started his Aviation degree at the same time. Practical experience is whats gonna stop you from hitting the hill :E

And to answer the original question... No, Skywest do not require a Degree and YES, they do require year 12 Maths, Physics and English

[MBA747]

Mr.Buzzy.

Quote:
Why is an ATPL holder flying in command credited with almost 3 quarters of the degree course content?

Please tell me which university will give one credits for three quarters of the degree course?? Most three year degree courses are composed of 24 units. One would have to do a minimum of 8 and only if one had a Frozen ATPL, Instrument Rating, Instructor Rating and held a first degree. Without a first degree you would be lucky to get credits for 8 units.

This 8 unit credit would only apply to an Aviation Degree as for any other degree ie. Science, Engineering, Economics and Commerce to name a few, one would get nothing. That is why Aviation Degrees are not held in the same regard as other degrees, however they are certainly better than no degree.

I think you will find in years gone bye Ansett held a Business Degree in high regard which assisted ones application immeasureably.

Bye the way if you think Cairns is challenging at night, try the Indian Sub continent during the SW Monsoon, Dacca during the cyclone season, Hong Kong, Taipei, Philipines and South China Sea during the Typhoon season and Japan during winter, makes Cairns childs play.

Some pilots find Cairns difficult because they are brought up on fair weather, used to flying visual approaches, do not self brief in case they have to fly an instrument approach and so when the wx is not near perfect are totally unprepared.

I guess some guys fly around with no wx radar when the forecast is not the best, thats not experience thats more stupidity leading to a bad experience.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Bye the way if you think Cairns is challenging at night, try the Indian Sub continent during the SW Monsoon, Dacca during the cyclone season, Hong Kong, Taipei, Philipines and South China Sea during the Typhoon season and Japan during winter, makes Cairns childs play.


Give me the experienced pilot for those joints as well! 'Cos I'll bet my left ball that a business degree wouldn't help "immeasurably" if at all!

bbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzbbbjeeeezyarpies!zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz

[hoss]

Steady on MBA747, many airmen 'cut their teeth' flying around the northern parts without a weather radar and with ordinary ARFOR's.

I think a lot of knowledge and lessons in weather would have been learned from those actual experiences.

'Stupidity' is a harsh word, why not call it 'character building':) .

[ThoughtCrime]

Ok all of you... I am not saying degrees should be placed as a substitute to good experience. I'm well aware that my degree does not help me with the command/judgement/manipulative/etc skills.

I'm saying that guys with a degree of the same experience will be ahead of those who dont. One with more experience and no degree, well... thats a company thing. Its simply being competitive in a competitive environment. One more feather in the cap if you will. Cant fly, well of course your degree isnt going to mean anything!

Oh and Mr Buzzy, I dont think its a requirement have a degree to be going on and on about how one thinks the business should be run. Read Reporting Points!

TC

[disco_air]

Degrees vs No Degrees

Aviation Industry Division

Round No. 3,256,789

[D'pirate]

A degree is NOT a requirement, and like any company the goal posts move according to their perceived future requirements. The recruitment process is comprehensive with a computerised technical exam, crm exercise,fixed base sim ride (in the Hawker Pilot Trainer), personality interview etc. As they do not have a bond or pay for type rating system the emphasis, beyond flying ability, is on finding people who will stay in Perth and who will be at home in the Skywest family. Despite that, both Cathay and QF seem to really like poaching from XR.
The website gives details of what experience IS required for applicants.

[Lord Snot]

At the very least, we might see a vast improvement in the standard of the whinging here on pprune.

It'd be a refreshing change to have whinging, moaning pilots who are capable of stringing together a sentence, free of the grammatical blunders, mixed metaphors and utterly tragic spelling which is currently the norm.

I doubt this will happen, though, because most pilots are high school drop-outs, as evidenced by the popularity of make-up courses in the (very basic) subjects of physics, mathematics and English. A degree is quite another matter, again, and well beyond both their motivation and capability.

[bigbrother]

I don't often tune in to this site but this has all hit a raw nerve with me. Yes the academics have taken over in all aspects of what used to be a great job. Well, the job is still great however the frustration of dealing with having to meet continuously changing regulations, and an over qualification of what is essentially a common sense job is too much. The situation in Oz has developed,in my opinion, over the post '89 dispute where pilots were pitted agianst each other and many would sell their soul to get that job. Too many pilots for too few positions and a fragmented industry. A union without any real muscle (and I suspect interest in teh case of G.A) and of course a govt. which has taken any chance of representation from them.

Its a common problem for so many pilots and the stress it causes. "if only you had a degree, if only you had a Space Shuttle endorsement" they continue to change the bar and all for the princley sum of $40K/yr.
I really hope that the long awaited 'pilot shortage' does eventuate for all our sakes but I'm not holding my breath. I applied for job driving bus the other day. Pay $45-55K. have to pay the motgage somehows.
I'm dispondant as are many of us at the complete lack of recognition we get for all those years of sacrifice and little return. Lets face it, its a drug.

Good luck to all of us.

[MBA747]

bigbrother Quote:

I really hope that the long awaited 'pilot shortage' does eventuate for all our sakes but I'm not holding my breath. I applied for job driving bus the other day. Pay $45-55K. have to pay the motgage somehows.
I'm dispondant as are many of us at the complete lack of recognition we get for all those years of sacrifice and little return. Lets face it, its a drug.

Oz never had or never will have a pilot shortage. Whatever aviation companies want would be pilots, will do. Oz is an affluent country and there are enough aspirants to do whatever it takes.

It seems to me that if one gets to 30 has no meaningfull assets and no likelihood of getting into the airlines they should consider their options. At least if you have a degree or some other qualification that could be considered. If not, your fodder for GA.

[Non Normal]

I admit that I am one of those academic people, and I DO NOT agree that a degree is much use for flying, in itself, because it honestly does not really contribute to the actual handling skill or the management skill. If recruiters are asking for a degree, most likely it's not because they feel it's essential for being a good pilot, but because they can put any filtering mechanisms in place when there are a lot of candidates. In fact, I would question the wisdom of the recruiter if they believe that having a degree would make you a better pilot.

However, having a good practical degree, something like medicine (:} ) would be a damn good backup if you don't succeed in your flying career and don't want to end up working at McDonalds. In fact, an accountancy degree would probably do.

If I were a young person wanting to make a start in a flying career, an aviation degree is not something I would personally do as my first degree. I'd do something away from the aviation but (or and??) with a good earning potential (I would personally only do an occupationally relevant degree). In the meantime, I'd probably work my butt off to earn enough money to pay for flying lessons - hopefully being qualified enough for the first flying job by the time I graduate. Should I be unsuccessful in getting a flying job, at least then I'd have a decent chance of getting myself a well-enough-paid job to fly for pleasure. Should I be successful in getting a flying job, and want to study aviation at degree level, then I might then do a bachelor's degree in aviation, but more likely do a postgraduate degree.

Some would argue that it would be good to have an aviation degree so that at least one would have a decent chance of having a job that's linked to aviation. That's fine if you can accept the situation of doing a non-flying job within the aviation industry and be happy for those who have made it. But if you feel you might feel bitter, then it's best to stay away from aviation. Too many office-bods that have caused unpleasantness to pilots were ex-wannabes who were bitter. It's not good for either the office-bods or the pilots, so only take this path if you can fully accept the outcome and throw away any jealousy that you may experience.

Doing a bachelor of aviation instead of another degree as one's first degree, to me, is a bit like having all my eggs in one basket. Spread my risk by being qualified in non-aviation things will be much better.

[Cloud Cutter]

I don't think anyone is comparing having a degree, with flying experience. They are both completely different criteria. Airlines are not lowering their minimums to degree holders, it is an additional requirement.

Having a degree is just a way of showing you are reasonably intelligent, and are able to exercise a good measure of self discipline and motivation. In some cases, the specific topic of study may be beneficial to the pilot's operational role (eg. study in physics or psychology), but this is secondary the former point.

As we all agree, not holding a degree (or leaving high school early) doesn't mean someone won't be a top quality pilot, but it is an easy way to narrow down the sights and look at people with a PROVEN record of success, (it's not good for the bottom line if newbys don't make the grade).

[mach.865]

The majority shareholder of Skywest is Singaporean. You will find that most young Singaporeans are tertiary qualified and there is a great emphasis on academics in Singapore.

I think you will find once the Singaporeans take on a more hands on approach at the operational level. A degree will be an additional requirement.

You will also find that there are quite a number of experienced Singaporean SIA Capts. in Perth who will be retiring at age 60. These pilots could quite easily move into management positions in Skywest, they also have permanent residence in Oz and will qualify. Once that happens there will be a further push to have a degree.

[Over and gout]

Having a degree is just a way of showing you are reasonably intelligent, and are able to exercise a good measure of self discipline and motivation.
So passing BAK, PPL, CPL, IREX exams and all ATPL subjects doesn't demonstrate any intelligence, discipline & motivation?
:yuk:

[mach.865]

Over and gout:

I'm not personally familiar with OZ exams but from what I have read here, a few posts refer to them as multi-guess exams. Others have posted how one could resit exams within a week, if this is so, it would not take a lot of intelligence to pass.

A degree does ensure one is reasonably intelligent and a candidate has a higher cahance of sucess on conversion courses etc. In the past stick & rudder counted for a lot, however there is a lot less emphasis on that and more on the more rounded individual.

Just because one can fly an overloaded badly maintained a/c and has luck would have it survived, doesen't qualify the pilot to fly airlines. That is why a large majority of GA pilots fail airline acceptance. Attaining a decent level of education proves you have some smarts.

[Cloud Cutter]

Over and Gout

Yes, those things do require some level of intelligence and motivation, but the simple fact is, they are nothing in terms of difficulty compaired with a degree. The fact that you can go from nothing to CPL, MECIR and ATPL theory in under 1 year backs that up.

I don't personally hava a degree, I am just trying to be a reasonable person who looks at an argument based on it's objective merits.

[Over and gout]

I'm not personally familiar with OZ exams but from what I have read here, a few posts refer to them as multi-guess exams. Others have posted how one could resit exams within a week, if this is so, it would not take a lot of intelligence to pass.
Just because one can fly an overloaded badly maintained a/c and has luck would have it survived, doesen't qualify the pilot to fly airlines. That is why a large majority of GA pilots fail airline acceptance. Attaining a decent level of education proves you have some smarts.
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Over and gout]

I think the reason many airlines like the applicants to have a degree is to cull the numbers of people applying for jobs.

I'm sure if there was a genuine pilot shortage the requirement for a degree would be lifted pretty quickly.....:ok:

[Cloud Cutter]

I agree on both counts.

[Non Normal]

Having a degree is just a way of showing you are reasonably intelligent, and are able to exercise a good measure of self discipline and motivation.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that.

It's so incredibly easy to get a degree now (I can assure you that many degrees are damn sight easier than getting an ATPL, and require far less discipline!), and I have come across so many graduates who are unintelligent, unintelligible and lacking in common sense that I've lost faith in the system somewhat.

Getting an ATPL requires more discipline, I'd say (for a start, you usually need a discipline to earn enough money to pay for it :p ).

In some cases, the specific topic of study may be beneficial to the pilot's operational role (eg. study in physics or psychology)

Some of the worst pilots I have come across have been psych grads. I know my personal experience means nothing, but really, I don't think having a psych background is particularly beneficial to flying. It certainly didn't help me to become a better pilot. I can't speak for physics grads because I don't know many, but I don't think it make much difference to flying.

As I mentioned earlier, I believe this is just a tick in the box exercise to reduce the number of applicants required.

[ThoughtCrime]

Okay...

ATPL - 8 Week Course + 7 Exams

University Degree - at least three years

Any Comparison? No.

I admit not all university courses are the same however, and just taking....

Have a degree? Please tick Yes/No

....into account and nothing more is just silly. More should be looked at the content of course & how/where it was done when/if taking degrees into consideration when selecting candidates.

TC

[Non Normal]

I admit not all university courses are the same however, and just taking....
Have a degree? Please tick Yes/No
....into account and nothing more is just silly. More should be looked at the content of course & how/where it was done when/if taking degrees into consideration when selecting candidates.


Absolutely. Aeronautical Engineering and Media/Communications are miles away from each other, for instance. AE = brain & logic required. MC = no brain required (I can say this because I've done MC. No offence meant to anyone who's done it! I'm not saying anyone who does/did MC doesn't have a brain. I'm saying that it proves nothing, except that you did stick it out for 3 years).

[FloatJockey]

heck i agree with all of you on both sides of this argument for many reasons. But seriously i am about to embark on my 8th license, the JAR Atpl and hopefully my last blo*%y license! I am of the opinion that many countries (including Australia) should look at why this license was set up in the first place and why it is now undisputed as an industry standard for AIRLINES in Europe!
Ok sure it's not a degree but it's close isn't it? Yes, it's it's got lot's of mind numbing content that takes a lot of motivation to absorb and finally empart durring exam time.

I'd hate this thread to get lost on small issues and unessasary sh*t slinging because in the end Learning Never Stops for us who do this for a living, even humble seaplane pilots have to use thier heads when situations get tough!

We all have obstacles to overcome, some take time and money others are more personal but we should all draw upon a common core of understanding/knowledge at the begining! This would obviate unessasary hurdles from being used in the selection process.

This is a huge global industry which touches on many issues least of all the Man Machine relationship and which requires us all to play many different roles for which some are well suited to than others! This is the task that employers are given to solve! The customer is the stake-holder in this agrument.

That's better now isn't it?


;)

[disco_air]

Here we go, float-drivers know what theyre talking about!

Respect.

...Disco

[hoss]

How about all the 'academics' write a 100000 word essay on "Why a degree is not necessary for employment into a Regional Airline in the year 2006".

That will get you thinking and keep you busy:ok: .

[Pass-A-Frozo]

The real value in a degree is not in "rote learning" some topic - as is the case for many other non-degree qualifications. The real value is in developing analytical thinking and thought processes/decision making.

That is why some companies ask for a tertiary qualified individual, regardless of the field they studied.

Yes, experience can help form these analytical processes on a basic level.
E.g. I did A and B, the result was C [frightened myself in an aircraft]. Well tertiary education is about giving you the mental skills to see that doing A and B may result in C. Hence avoiding the bad experience in the first place.

If it was not the case, how about we hire doctors with no tertiary qualification and they can find out through experience that if they do A and B, C results. C being someone died.

A degree enhances your ability to reason. However, it's just as false to suggest someone cannot reason without one. A degree WILL enhance you ability to analyse and use logic. I'm sure you'll agree this is a positive in a field such as aviation.

If we took two people with exactly the same past experiences, experiences in aviation and skill level you could compare. If one of them had a degree and one didn't I think the one with the degree would make a better pilot.

Trying to compare a pilot with a degree and X experience with a pilot without a degree and Y experience is to fall for the Ceteris paribus fallacy.

[hoss]

and on those last few words, next we'll need to understand Latin;) .

and on a similar topic, who else hates the Roman numerals used in the Jeppesen Manuals now:mad: ?

[Mr.Buzzy]

Way too much commonsense from you HOSS!

I hate Roman numerals too and I do think your essay idea is a good one.

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz z

[Capn Bloggs]

The Roman empire died out in the 500s, and so should have their ridiculous numbering system. Jeppesen, what about "Index-23" instead of XDXIIIVXMC or whatever it is.

[Oh that's super!]

What was the rationale behind the Roman numerals?

Someone should Jepps that it costs more in ink to print in Roman numerals. Maybe they'll then drop them :E

As for the degrees giving you a better analytical thinking and better thought/decision making process - I'm sorry to say, but that's not always the case. Some of the stuff I did at university REDUCED my rational thinking abilities, reduced my patience level, worsened my word usage (because I cursed them all the time for being waste of time), and turned me into a ref-bot (that's a robot that just find reference materials, to the detriment of my own thinking abilities). Having said that, some of the stuff I did at uni was terrific, interesting and challenging (and that's before taking drinking, eating too much and generally being silly into account).

Not everything we study at uni is beneficial. Only some are. We just can't generalise and say that university study is beneficial.

Hoss I might consider writing an 100,000 word thesis on the subject, but I doubt I can stay awake long enough.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Don't blame the university system for the shtye uni you got into :}

[Cloud Cutter]

I think Pass-A-Frozo has put it brilliantly. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to get through a university degree, and the main benifit of a degree to a pilot is developement of critical, and analytical thinking skills. These skills allow you to maximise what you learn from your flying experience.

[Capn Bloggs]

CC,

the main benifit of a degree to a pilot is developement of critical, and analytical thinking skills. These skills allow you to maximise what you learn from your flying experience.

Please post some of the stuff you are on to me immediately! :bored:

[Mr.Buzzy]

I'll take a bag as well thanks!

hhhmmmmm..... maybe that's the benefit of spending time at uni?....

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzz

[Oh that's super!]

Don't blame the university system for the shtye uni you got into :}
Hehehe! Some of the most useless subjects were done at supposedly one of the best unis in Australia (oops)! It hardly inspires me with confidence.

Some of the most benficial subjects that made me think were done at one of the 'less well-respected' unis.

I suspect everything is heavily subject-dependent.

Some of the thickest, least analytical and least logical people I've met in my life (and I'm not that young) have been graduates who in fact graduated with good grades. I think 'an any old degree for the sake of having a degree' means sod-all, especially a bachelor's degree.

The argument about analytical skills etc becomes somewhat more valid at postgraduate level. You can often quite easily see that the average 'thinking abilities' of students tends to be fairly good, at masters level and above. Having said that, some of the people with very little common sense, critical thinking skills or even everyday living skills are with PhDs, so it's still not a guarantee of 'decent level of intelligence'.

[Ralph the Bong]

G'Day Cloud Cutter,

You are right on the money. After 20 years in the airline industry I would have to say that it is remarkable to see the difference in flying skills between those who put thought into their flying and those who dont. This is criteria that distinguishes the true professional aviator from the mere bus drivers; the latter being predominant in the industry.

Although an absence of tertiary qualifications does not neccessarily mean that a career aviator doesnt possess the capacity to generate insights into their flying, the completion of such studies at least indicates that such candidates are prepared to apply themselves to intellectual contemplation and are likely to harness these skills towards personal professional betterment.

Basically, the dullards out there give me the sh1ts.

Peace and tubes...

[RENURPP]

the main benifit of a degree to a pilot is developement of critical, and analytical thinking skills. These skills allow you to maximise what you learn from your flying experience.


100% of the degree qualified pilots I work with disproves this theory!

I'll take a bag as well!

[Mr.Buzzy]

You are right on the money. After 20 years in the airline industry I would have to say that it is remarkable to see the difference in flying skills between those who put thought into their flying and those who dont. This is criteria that distinguishes the true professional aviator from the mere bus drivers; the latter being predominant in the industry.

Although an absence of tertiary qualifications does not neccessarily mean that a career aviator doesnt possess the capacity to generate insights into their flying, the completion of such studies at least indicates that such candidates are prepared to apply themselves to intellectual contemplation and are likely to harness these skills towards personal professional betterment.


Sounds like someone ate a bag of words and bullsh&t this morning! Jeeezus wept, that would have to be the most "put on" load of crap I've ever heard.

I'll still take the FO that has had a few scares, (with or without a degree)

Bullsh*t and wind types are best in positions of bullsh*t and wind. I still like to think that flying is not one such position.

This is criteria that distinguishes the true professional aviator from the mere bus drivers; the latter being predominant in the industry.


There is a reason why we are "predominant in the industry"; ponder for a while with your genius brains while rubbing your academic goatee. Think about it. The reason is simple. Maybe practical people are best suited to practical jobs.........QED.

bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzz

[Cloud Cutter]

Cheers RTB, you're speaking my language!

I wish people wouldn't get so defensive during an objective debate. I don't think there's much place for anecdotal evidence.

Once again I reiterate, having a degree isn't a prerequisite for someone to fit into the group of thoughtful pilots that Ralph has described - but it is an indicator that someone has better odds of fitting that profile, one that is proven, and very easy for recruiters to use.

As far as some PhDs having limited everyday skills, this is what I call the absent-minded professor syndrome, which is a function of extreme focus on one subject. Your brain can only handle so much.

[Ralph the Bong]

:}

Had a very interesting discussion in the CRZ the other day. You know, in these moments between dodging build ups in the ITCZ, eating and copying the volmet on 13282. Me and the other guy were wondering about the direction of the company and where the management were taking us. We both agreed that whilst the idiots at headquaters were spot on in their future projections with regard to accounting for autocorrelation and multicollinearity, they had F#$%^& up big time regarding their hopeless failure to account for heteroscedasticity of the available data.

D$#%$heads. Airline management are the same, world over. Useless cretans..

"Grab the ATIS Steve-O, 67Nm to top of descent."

I think my last post went over someones head.:rolleyes:

[tinpis]

The dumbest prick I have ever encountered was a lawyer.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Yes Ralph,
it went right over my head thankfully.
You see, we are on different frequencies. Now contact centre on 135.0, you're on the wrong one!

bbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzz

[locusthunter]

It's so incredibly easy to get a degree now (I can assure you that many degrees are damn sight easier than getting an ATPL, and require far less discipline!), and I have come across so many graduates who are unintelligent, unintelligible and lacking in common sense that I've lost faith in the system somewhat.


:confused:

ATPL is a joke. It's 7 of the easiest exams you will ever do. If you compare it to a substantial Uni degree. Most first year Uni subjects are harder than ATPL with it's multiple-guess questions. ATPL is a complete joke and if you find it too hard go to the States and get theirs, then convert your licence.

Just about any education makes you a better person, as does sweeping the hanger floor or flying an approach in bad weather. However, in Aviation, there is no substitute for experience. Hours in the log book, boys and girls.

[pakeha-boy]

locusthunter....you are exactly right,and thats what many of us have done....get the yank one and then convert....that tells you right there,that we are a very bloody smart lot indeed.....god save the queen

[tinpis]

Hay! Pakeha go get one them Tin Tank university degrees while yer there.
Probably bowl it over in yer lunch break.

Tin gotta dumb kiwi cuzzy a college professor up that way somewhere .
All he ever knew was pulling cows tits.

Its not a bad idea then ya could apply to skywest whoever they are and be a fokka 50 FO .

[pakeha-boy]

tinne mate....lunch time?...smoko mate,... over smoko!!!

[Oh that's super!]

get the yank one and then convert....that tells you right there,that we are a very bloody smart lot indeed.....god save the queen
That would be even easier than a degree! I don't even know why they bother administering those ATPL exams. Why don't they just ask:

Examiner [points at a jet engine] "What is this?"

Student "A jet engine"

Examiner "How do you spell 'engine'?"

Student "e - n - g - i - n - e"

Examiner "Well done, you've passed!"


Doing the US ATPL and converting, however, shows that you know how to work the system to your best adavantage - if it works out, that is. That can't be said for many grads (including sad old me).