Problems at Liverpool ATC?

[greatorex]

A little outside my usual DOC - but - a friend of mine who flies for VLM says that over half the ATC staff at Liverpool are looking to leave and that things are not too good there, not sure if it's true or not? Rumor has it that there maybe a new company ownership/management in the pipeline???? Anyone know any more?

[niknak]

Rumours abound re the atco's seeking opportunities elsewhere, but as for new ownership? Peel own Liverpool and most of the North West of England.

Unless there's a huge profit to be had it's unlikely that they'd unload it.

[Cavallier]

I thought it was a guy in a Seneca last summer that tipped them over the edge!

The Cav;)

[JustaFew]

My recovery programme was doing well until you mentioned 'that Seneca',
Cavalier...:(
Now the nightmares will start again, I can feel a move coming on.

[squibbler]

Oh come on. I know the place will never be the same without me but 12 leaving en masse??

Rats / sinking ship??

http://www.longdog.karoo.net/smilies/titanic.gif

Go for it! :ok:

[cossack]

Hey squibbler, you must have one hell of a commute!
By my reckoning you're 5732Km west of EGGP. Or 3562 statute miles in "old money.":8
Hope you're settling in well.

[Vampy]

It's true that Liverpool ain't a happy place at the moment. I would doubt that 12 guys will go, but certainly at least 3 will. The problem then will be how to staff Doncaster Radar as at least 2 from Doncaster Radar will probably go, maybe 3, maybe even 4. As my rather feisty friend cheesy has sort of stated above, these problems could well have been avoided. However, hindsight is a wonderful thing (or something!) :ok:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Ok sorry to be nosey, but would love to hear what the seneca did. Sounds interesting:E

Sorry to hear you guys ain't enjoying life on t'other side of the airfield. Hope it gets sorted out.

[royman]

If you consider that the night shifts are " illegal" why hasn't this been reported to SRG?

[squibbler]

Hey squibbler, you must have one hell of a commute!
By my reckoning you're 5732Km west of EGGP. Or 3562 statute miles in "old money.":8
Hope you're settling in well.

Oh ****! I meant Km of course :O . Must remember that miles are are thing of the past!! (It'll always be mpg though....will never get used to litres/100km:yuk: )

Settling in fine thanks Cossack, at least we're above freezing now!!

[machinehead]

what's said/agreed and what actually happens here are two different things:*

[royman]

There was a posting about night shifts, honest.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

If my memory serves me well a Seneca from down south made such a hash of his taxi clearance at Liverpool that he caused a controllers heart to soar to dangerous levels and subsequently resign. This story however is 3rd hand so I do not know of the credibility!

[Vampy]

The posting about the night shifts seems to have disappeared. However, these are the shifts in place for nights at Liverpool. Bear in mind that the airport (Tower and Radar) is open 24hrs:

Monday-Friday: The night shift is from 2145-0700. We have 2 people in for nights, one in radar and one in tower. There is also an evening shift who provide breaks. The evening shift is from 1445-0000.

Saturday and Sunday: There is no evening shift so there are 2 people on duty from 2145-0700. Again the airport is notified fully open 24Hrs.

There is also just one assistant on duty for nights from 2120-0645.

[royman]

Why do all the big rants keep disappearing?

[Friio4]

;) I think a big turnout at a naked monday in the near future is required to lift some of this tension.

[Vampy]

I think a big turnout at a naked monday in the near future is required to lift some of this tension

:eek:

lol. But that would be swiftly followed by mass sickness on the tuesday! :}

[RAC/OPS]

...Especially if you take part Vampy!!

[JustaFew]

:D :\ :uhoh: :yuk:

[Vampy]

And just to calm the anger on here a tad, something that seems to have slipped by unnoticed:

Rumor has it that there maybe a new company ownership/management in the pipeline????

What's that all about?

[Atcham Tower]

Eurodisney?

[shakinghead]

NATS?? Has been muted before although many years ago.

[055166k]

Do NATS want it back to run as a tower-only operation with centralised APP at Manch [this would include the other place]?
Is my old chair still there?

[BarTT]

Since everyone seems to be off to NATS, it would be funny if they got the ATC contract and posted them all back to Liverpool!

[niknak]

Red Rum is more likely to appear in Liverpool next week than NATS getting the Liverpool ATC contract at anytime this century.

Although there's a shortage of qualified and experienced ATCOs throughout the UK, there are plenty of wanabees available whom Peel could train (admittedly at some cost) at any of their airports over the next few years, move to Liverpool and retain under bonding.
Then there's the small number of ATCOs who constantly talk about moving and go nowhere....:rolleyes:

[tori chelli]

I did get told that the whole Doncaster Radar thing was the contentious issue at LJLA...all that RASing & RISing with little protection and less back-up. It would be interesting to hear from those in the know how much of an issue it really is. Who watches who's back up there? :uhoh:
Tori

[niknak]

Alpha,

I know what the costs invoved are, but, if it comes to experienced atco's leaving and the long term continuity of LJL being threatened, then Peel will cough up to train enough people who they can bond and ensure the minimum requirements are met. There are very attractive financial and tax incentives for employers, especially in economically depressed areas, to train people in specialist skills, this overall brings the cost of all three ratings down significantly.

I accept that under the current regime, no one with experience and any sanity would go to Liverpool, but there is definately no shortage at all of people willing to be trained and accept the bonding period.

What I don't understand is, if so many people are getting up and going, we haven't seen any recruitment campaign, or why you as a group of atcos have not squeezed better terms and conditions out of the management.

Perhaps you're the ones without a clue.

[TATC]

Alpha,
I know what the costs invoved are, but, if it comes to experienced atco's leaving and the long term continuity of LJL being threatened, then Peel will cough up to train enough people who they can bond and ensure the minimum requirements are met. There are very attractive financial and tax incentives for employers, especially in economically depressed areas, to train people in specialist skills, this overall brings the cost of all three ratings down significantly.
I accept that under the current regime, no one with experience and any sanity would go to Liverpool, but there is definately no shortage at all of people willing to be trained and accept the bonding period.
What I don't understand is, if so many people are getting up and going, we haven't seen any recruitment campaign, or why you as a group of atcos have not squeezed better terms and conditions out of the management.
Perhaps you're the ones without a clue.

they wouldnt have to train people up freom scratch - ther are plenty of ATSA's within NATS who have unvalidated ratings - just an APC would be needed to reactivate their student licenses and start their training

[chevvron]

So what's the problem with RASing and RISing in class G airspace? I've been doing it for over 30 years without the benefit of controlled airspace. The problem with newly trained ATCO's nowadays is they can't hack it without controlled airspace; course the bean counters want as cheap an ATCO as possible so they employ those who've failed with other providers but have passed the approved course. If Peel were to provide some form of LARS service around the Doncaster area, they would create something approaching a 'known traffic' environment making it safer for everyone.

[Dizzee Rascal]

Just as a point but according to the Citizens Advise Bureau, these Bonds are not worth the paper they are written on.:ooh:

[pumuckl]

That is indeed correct, Dizzee Rascal, bonding is legally not enforceable, although I know that a lot of units like to think it is and make you sign a piece of paper. I suppose ATC it is a small world and word would get around quickly if you were to leave before your 'bonding period' runs out without paying up...

However, as an aside, NATS don't bond you because they know it is not legal and couldn't be enforced.

:ok:

[tori chelli]

"Just as a point but according to the Citizens Advise Bureau, these Bonds are not worth the paper they are written on."
I've heard that time after time...so why do the airlines do it if it gets them, nowhere?
Chevvron - I take your point about RAS & RIS (although I don't think the specific services have been around 30 years...about 20 maybe;) )...the point that was raised to me was that there is a significant amount of military traffic whizzing around that makes it more 'sporty' than some other neighbourhoods. It also raises the age-old question of driving fare-paying passengers through the FIR mixing it, when they thought their ticket promised them some protection!! :oh:
tori

[chevvron]

If you can create something approaching a 'known traffic' environment, it will provide some measure of protection. Sure there'll always be the ones who prefer to operate keeping their own lookout- which they're quite entitled to in class G (and the military are included here) but a lot of pilots here in the congested south east like to be talking to someone, especially when that someone can potentially help if that fan thing on the nose stops, or they become 'temporarily uncertain of position'.

[RAC/OPS]

The RASing and RISing of Doncaster is not in itself an issue, Chevvron, and while some of the controllers are newly trained, there are no second rate ones here I assure you. Is there a difference between an approved course and the CATC course? I assume that is what you mean by "other providers".
And hacking it without controlled airspace has been a challenge to say the least in what must be some of the busiest class G in the UK.

[chevvron]

I wasn't intending to criticise the abilities of those who do DSA Radar, but effective use of ATSOCA really only comes with experience, as it is rarely if ever taught on any approved course, whether at CATC or any other college, so ideally it should be controllers with prior experience of ATSOCA who should be doing it. I've read one or two of the incident reports filed for DSA, and thought 'well why didn't they say/do xxx?'; but as I said, it all boils down to experience. Course I don't know what the radar coverage is like; is it still remoted from Waddington or somewhere?

[Wonkavater]

On a typical day, how long is Doncaster radar manned up for? Is it purely dependant on staff available?

[Vampy]

Brush off the CVs all ye who are interested. First notice has been handed in.

[Megamoto]

Not wishing to fan the fire but.............. I know of a military controller who is thinking of leaving the RAF and phoned LJLA about a post in ATC, controlling, assisting and the like.
He's been sent an application form for a job as an ATCO.

[bagpuss lives]

Could someone from Liverpool ATC drop me a private message to help me out with a couple of things please?

Cheers! :E

[the hunted one]

As it stands, there will be 3 vacancies advertised at some point for Liverpool, although I understand a pssible 4th is in the pipeline. The adverts may not appear until the new year, for financial reasons.

Oh and on the "RAS in class G is easy" subject, I'd suggest you have a look at the map, or have a visit first! There is one controller at Doncaster (with an assistant) providing a service to all the transits and any Doncaster IFR traffic. There are 3 airfields within 3 miles of final approach (2 adjacent to 10 mile final for 02, 1 adjacent to 6 mile final for 20) firing off light aircraft directly towards the Doncaster final approach with no warning or coordination, and the RAF's radar enjoys more annual leave than a NATS Director, and just like NATS Directors, it does not book its leave in advance (in other words it fails or is removed from service with no notice with frightening regularity)! In addition, the planning consent for the airport stipulates (for noise reasons) that runway 20 is the preferred runway for arrivals and 02 for Departures, and further stipulates that 80% of their departures must go off 02! Oh, and while playing runway roulette, the tower does not have an ATM (DFTI in old money) at their disposal. Still think all Class G operations are equal chevvron? ;)

Additional: Oh, I forgot to mention that there is no D/F available either. Deemed an unnecessary expense.

[London Mil]

THO, is it the RAF radar that is regularly failing, or the bit of wire between Waddington/Scampton and Liverpool that is at fault? I ask because one would presume there would be a contractural issue if the military were not meeting a certain level of availability.

That said, fag packet an ATS infrastructure and you'll get what you pay for.

[2 sheds]

...and the RAF's radar enjoys more annual leave than a NATS Director, and just like NATS Directors, it does not book its leave in advance (in other words it fails or is removed from service with no notice with frightening regularity)! ;)

When Doncaster ATC was being "planned" - as you say, on the back of a fag packet - I raised with the Great One the practical problems of relying on outside sources of remote radar, particularly from military units. I gained the impression that the "down side" had never occurred to him/them! You can have whatever contract and penalty clauses you like but they still will not alter the fact that the radar has failed/been withdrawn/has inadequate low cover/military unit closed in latest defence review.

[the hunted one]

London Mil: There have been some line faults, but the vast majority of it has been faults and repairs at the unit (one month saw us operate non-radar on 15 days). And, unlike Waddington, we are not allowed to operate on SSR only, so a primary failure takes everything away from us. On the plus side, the company has come to realise the down sides of remote radars provided by the military, and are now installing a primary radar on site, and switching to a NATS source for SSR data, but that will all take time. Had this been done in the first place.....

Hindsight and ATC... A marvellous thing... If only they had the excuse that they hadn't been told what would happen! :ugh:

[London Mil]

I do remember sitting in a priveleged place a couple of years back watching all this shenanigans develop. There are some things in ATC that really aren't worth fiddling with..............:=

Still, the Watchman at Waddo must be in a poor state for it to have fallen over for almost half a month.:(