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View Full Version : A female, PPL training in Florida, HELP.


EGCC4284
27th Mar 2006, 16:57
A friend of mine is considering going to Florida this summer to try and gain her PPL in an intensive course.

1, Does she need a visa and if so, how do she get one.

2, Can anyone recommend a good suitable flying school with first hand experience.

She is planning doing all her exams before she goes.

Is the anything else she needs to be aware of.

Advise would be very much appreciated.

:ok:

chrisbl
27th Mar 2006, 18:07
She needs a Visa which can only be obtained though a flight school which is approved by the immigration authorities.

Therefore step one is to choose a flight school. Which one to choose? Well do a search on this site and see what comes up. Alternatively go to Smiths and get Pilot magazine which has a load of adverts and this month also has a "where to fly" guide.

Your friend will also have to go through the TSA security vetting process including having her fingerprints taken. This is not cheap.

However a flight school will give you all the information you need.

If any school tells you either that you dont need a visa and or need to go through the TSA process then they are lying to you. If they will lie on that assume everything else they say is a lie too.

SkyHawk-N
28th Mar 2006, 08:54
There are some plus points for doing flight training in Florida but some/many minus points as well.

Obviously the cost can be a lot less but make sure there is enough capacity, both instructors and aircraft, to get the hours required. One word of warning, doing intensive flight training is very tiring and may not be as productive as doing training over a much longer period. Your friend should have a backup plan just in case she does not achieve the PPL in the time she has allowed.
The weather over there is what most people go for. In my experience the weather CAN be as unpredictable as over in the UK. Very low cloud and thunderstorms can last all day and strong winds and turbulance can pick up very quickly. It isn't always as it looks in the brochures, a lot depends on the time of the year (avoid the hurricane season!).

Navigation, RT and procedures are the big down sides. As you have probably heard they are a lot different in the USA, not neccessary better or worse, just different. After returning to the UK there is a lot more adapting to be done, something which a pilot with a freshly earnt PPL could do without.

What about taking her Practical RT exam? I have heard that many schools don't have the facility for these to be taken in the USA.

The quality of schools can vary widely, try and pick one using recommendations.

Getting a visa is not as straight forward as you may think. The school will provide the sponsor form, they may charge for courier delivery though. The application forms can be dowloaded off the internet, and are also available at the Embassy. Make sure the pictures taken are the right size (they are a different size to UK/European passpord pictures!) and have the right color background - very important! Make sure the paperwork is 100% correct, take time filling out the forms. Be prepared for a long queue and wait at the US Embassy. :ugh:

I could go on but I'm sure others will add their views ....

Skyhawk-N.

strafer
28th Mar 2006, 09:17
Well she could listen to a lot of uninformed tosh here or she could do the following: (any reference to them gets binned.)

Doing her exams before she goes is not always necessary (I didn't) and it will bump up the costs, however, it will also make her time in Florida much less stressfull.

Re flying in the UK afterwards - it should take around 2-4 hours to get checked out on a UK club afterwards. Beware any club/instructor who tells her different, that will be due to a combination of their ignorance and greed.

SkyHawk-N
28th Mar 2006, 09:30
Well she could listen to a lot of uninformed tosh here or she could do the following
strafer, you are not the only one to have done their PPL over there!
I have done more flying in the US than I have in the UK, including many hours training. BTW, just for information I am not involved in the flight training industry and never have been.
I think that the more views people get the better, I'm sure others have had a wonderful experience learning in the USA. I enjoyed much of my time flying over there and would never recommend someone NOT to go over to Florida.
Why not post your more detailed views here so everyone can read them and hopefully learn from them. :ok:
Doing her exams before she goes is not always necessary (I didn't) and it will bump up the costs, however, it will also make her time in Florida much less stressfull..
Agreed!

IO540
28th Mar 2006, 10:00
Without a shadow of doubt: do the exams, and the medical, before going out there.

This is whether you do the FAA PPL or a JAA PPL - the volume of the study material of the two is broadly similar.

tangovictor
28th Mar 2006, 10:02
Learn to fly, where your going to fly, make's so much sense.

strafer
28th Mar 2006, 10:05
Chill Skyhawk - The 'uninformed tosh' remark was not aimed at you! However, by this time tomorrow, this thread will be full of it. :}

There are many on this board who, because they will never admit that spending twice as much and 20 times as long on getting their license to learn was a bit silly, therefore see the need to denigrate all US gained JAA-PPLs. I shall name no names, they will make themselves plain fairly soon.

Re my own 'detailed views' - I imagine a search for 'strafer' and 'florida' will show plenty, however, I'm more than happy to answer PMs regarding my time at OBA. (Or, if you've got a copy of 'Flyer' from Apr 2004 - you can read all about it there!:ok: ). Alternatively, there's a 50 page thread on Wannabees.

If you want one reason why you should do a intensive course abroad- then check out the current pink headsets thread by Mazzy something or other.

SkyHawk-N
28th Mar 2006, 10:14
Chill Skyhawk

Apology accepted strafer :E

Henry Hallam
28th Mar 2006, 10:16
I trained in the US, once back in the UK after three months not flying, a combined conversion to C172 and learning UK R/T etc. took me about 4 hours. Remember this is still loggable & enjoyable flying time so not really wasted as such.

BroomstickPilot
28th Mar 2006, 12:07
EGCC4284

I have just revalidated my British PPL in the UK after many years of being 'expired'. Despite being available to fly full time, despite having all the money required on tap and despite being based in the relatively much drier South of England, it has still taken me 20 months!

Admittedly, some of this was due to poor instructors: I walked out of two clubs last summer and had to start all over again each time. By far the worst obstacle, however, was UK weather. At least two thirds of my bookings were cancelled from that cause alone. In 2004, between July and December I booked a whole week's flying six times and cancelled it all, one day at a time; and that was in dry Central Southern England, Northern weather was much worse!

My advice would be to go to the US, where your friend will have an FAA PPL licence within six weeks. (It doesn't matter which country issues the PPL as long as it is an ICAO country, and the USA is an ICAO country). Then at least, she will have a valid licence 'in the bag'.

She should then be prepared to put in a further several hours at a British club on her return before being allowed to exercise the privileges of her licence. She will need this to learn to cope with UK weather and extra complex airspace and busy radio. It sounds convoluted, but will be very much quicker and cheaper in the long run.

Broomstick.

tangovictor
28th Mar 2006, 12:36
I may be wrong, however, unless you can afford to buy your own plane, I wonder how many airplane rental companies, would recognise,an American licence and flying time ? might be worth ringing a few, before deciding

Julian
28th Mar 2006, 12:45
I may be wrong, however, unless you can afford to buy your own plane, I wonder how many airplane rental companies, would recognise,an American licence and flying time ? might be worth ringing a few, before deciding

All of them! Hours are hours are hours! Can also be counted towards a JAA licence should you want to pursue one - the exception being the FAA practice of logging 'Safety Pilot', buts that another story!

You can hire a G Reg and fly it on your FAA licence, there is currently another thread on Pprune discussing this and its previledges.

Learn to fly where you want to learn to fly!!! A checkout over here afterwards (which you will have to do anyway if you have not flown with a particular rental outfit before), will take 1-2 hours.

Paris Dakar
28th Mar 2006, 12:56
EGCC4284,

I did an intensive course at the same school 'Strafer' attended - and it worked for me.

Couple of things to think about:

Is your friend the sort of person who can 'hack' an intensive course - it's not to everyone's liking?

How would she feel being (probably) the only female student on the course - will that add extra pressure?

Has she had a trail flying lesson in the UK?

If her mind is made up - then go for it!

Whirlybird
28th Mar 2006, 16:19
If you want one reason why you should do a intensive course abroad- then check out the current pink headsets thread by Mazzy something or other.

Rather un-called for, don't you think? I've followed Mazzy's thread from the start, and met him too. He learned over a longish time period, and had cancellations due to weather, but so what? He also kept on with his studying and later his job, learned a lot, had a great time, and met loads of people...important if you're a sociable soul and might want to fly with them afterwards. Oh, and by the way, he got a PPL at the end of it too. I don't see him complaining and saying he should have gone to the USA, so why should anyone else think that?

There are pros and cons of both ways of learning, and it depends on the person and what they want.

nouseforaname
28th Mar 2006, 19:03
check your prviate message.. egcc4284.

IO540
28th Mar 2006, 21:20
I did my IR in the USA and met a number of people doing their PPLs out there. It's damn nice to be able to fly 360 days a year (this was Arizona), when in the UK it took me 1 year to do my PPL; at one time booking every day 7 days/week for 3 months and flying just 3 times. A PPL out there would be 1 month's stay; not a holiday but pleasant.

However, let me make a wider observation.

Flying isn't a dirt-cheap hobby - much as a lot of people are trying really really hard (admirably so) to hang in there on what I would call unrealistically small budgets. Flying just a few hours a year, not enough for any currency, and perhaps just enough for a little bit on very nice sunny days. Soon, most of them pack it in.

So, if the prime motivation of going to the USA is to save money, going to the USA is probably a strong indication of someone who won't be flying much (or at all) afterwards.

I know a number of 200-500 hour/year IR pilots who did their PPL/IR in the USA, never touching the UK training machine with a bargepole. For them it was a very good way to do it.

But I have met a lot more PPLs who did their PPL in the USA for a few k (it's rather more now; fuel isn't as cheap as it used to be) and most of them have long ago given up flying - they can't afford it.

Having said all that, the goal of getting a PPL and doing nothing more is a very common one. Many new PPLs never fly again - the motivation is gone. In that case, doing it in the USA is a very sound option.

Genghis the Engineer
28th Mar 2006, 21:50
Having done various courses both sides of the Atlantic, I'd venture that there are many good schools and instructors either side.

BUT, if you are going to primarily fly in the UK, then you need to learn how to fly in the UK. Go and do your licence in the USA by all means, but budget for time spent here with an instructor as well.

There is then much to be said for this route, learning to fly in the UK takes a very long time - largely as has been said down to the weather. So, doing a PPL in Florida in about 4 weeks, then spending a few weekends flying from your local club, with a UK instructor, isn't a bad option.

Echoing what IO540 said however, budget also for at least a couple of thousand a year for the first few years after getting your PPL - you need to at-least start by doing a reasonable amount of flying to consolidate it all. This is true whether you learn in the UK, US, South Africa, or for that matter Mars.

G

Whirlybird
29th Mar 2006, 06:52
To follow on from what Genghis said...

If you're not going to be able to afford much flying after getting your PPL, then learn here - unless your aim is simply to get the PPL, then stop. Why? It'll give you a longer period of flying, hanging around flying clubs, being involved in aviation. In that time, you can find people to fly with after you've got your licence, find out about cheaper ways of flying, get information generally. You'll also hopefully build up sympathetic school and instructor contacts, which will be helpful if you're going to be needing lots of check flights after you've passed, or lots of advice anyway. And having learned over a longer period, your skills will degrade more slowly, ie you'll get rusty less quickly!

I should imagine that learning in 4 weeks, coming back to the UK and doing a few hours, then trying to fly with not much in the way of money, experience, or contacts over here, would be pure hell. No wonder so many people who try it give up!

Julian
29th Mar 2006, 07:23
Spoke to a friend last night who has recently got a 1st time pass on his PPL at a very respected school in the Northern part of the country.

He took approx 12 months to complete his PPL and logged 91 hours in achieving it. The hours apparently due to having to revisit certain lessons after long breaks due to weather and also the fact that they flew to other airfields for cheaper landing fees! Whilst chatting I asked him if he had worked out how much his PPL had cost him. "Yes" came back the answer "£16,000".

From what I can make out he spent about £12k on flying and £4k landing fees. I nearly fell off my seat in the office when he told me as it has to be the most expensive PPL I have heard of.

Can anybody beat it???

Julian.

EGCC4284
29th Mar 2006, 07:47
Thanks for the response so far.

I will print this thread off for her to have a read.

I will get back to you all soon.

Just thought that I should also mention that she may continue onto JAA CPL/IR

Thanks for all information and please keep them coming.

I will also get in touch with those that have PM me.

Going to work now

Cheers everyone

Any school recommendations would be grateful

Rob

IO540
29th Mar 2006, 07:57
unless your aim is simply to get the PPL, then stop. Why?

I guess 1/3 to 1/2 of those I met when doing my PPL were in that category. Why? They do it as a personal challenge.

It'll give you a longer period of flying, hanging around flying clubs, being involved in aviation.

I am going to get into hot water for this remark, but as the originally interested person is a woman, telling her that getting involved in the usually anorak and plane spotter filled flying club scene is a positive thing may not be the best way to start her off..... :O Most women do like flying but equally most women wouldn't touch the "GA airfield scene" with a bargepole.

I spent £8.2k and 66hrs getting my PPL, about average I think for someone of that age. I knew people who were past the 100hr mark, and one person (in their 30s) who spent £20k. The only people I've met who did it in 45hrs were either brilliant natural pilots (and young) or they were ruthless about booking lessons only on nice windless days.

Whirlybird
29th Mar 2006, 08:54
I am going to get into hot water for this remark, but as the originally interested person is a woman, telling her that getting involved in the usually anorak and plane spotter filled flying club scene is a positive thing may not be the best way to start her off.....

As one woman making suggestions to/for another......

I haven't found all flying clubs to be like that. Admittedly, some are. But others are just good places to get to know people, get known, find out....all sorts of things. If you want to cost-share with other PPLs, find out about cheap aircraft shares, quiz someone about microlights or taildraggers, or scrounge aerial lifts if you can't afford to fly yourself, I can't think of a better place to do it. Certainly not at a new club that you don't know on your return from four weeks in the US.

strafer
29th Mar 2006, 09:18
There are pros and cons of both ways of learning, and it depends on the person and what they wantFair enough Whirly, each to their own. However spending 18 months on something that could take 3 weeks and costs 2-3 times as much, will always be a 'con' in my book.

I should imagine that learning in 4 weeks, coming back to the UK and doing a few hours, then trying to fly with not much in the way of money, experience, or contacts over here, would be pure hell. No wonder so many people who try it give upWhat rubbish. For a start you'll have 3-5 grand more to spend on flying than the person who fell for the 'Fly in the UK, learn in the UK' con trick. Also, 4 years down the line from my course, 100% of the people I've kept in touch with are still flying. What's the UK average? 5%?

Flying in the US does spoil you though - while not perfect, it shows you how GA could be. Coming back to the small minded anoraks in the UK scene can be quite depressing.

A Sayers
29th Mar 2006, 11:19
By all means go abroad, it hurts to say it but it can be worthwhile. As often the case however I agree with Ghengis, you become a better pilot by training where you intend to fly.

My recommendations to potential students always include:

Exams and medical first.

Never go to a school that guarantees a PPL for a fixed price, even if they undertake to pay for the extra hours themselves.

Never pay in advance for the full course, pay day by day or better still as you fly the hours.

Pay by credit card if paying in advance. If this excedes your limit, put the cash into your credit card account in advance, which has the effect of increasing how much you can spend.

I hope the reasons are obvious.

Andy.
FE(A)

Paris Dakar
29th Mar 2006, 12:45
you become a better pilot by training where you intend to fly
Tosh!

You become a better pilot by building on your experiences post PPL GFT/Skills test.

I learned to fly by going the US route and I wouldn't have changed it for the world. Any reference to the school I used being mentioned here will ensure that this posting is pulled by the Mods within one nano second.

I fly in the UK and US - and I have no troubles at all adjusting to the differences.

A Sayers
29th Mar 2006, 13:54
Paris dakar.
I am delighted you are an above average pilot who is able to adopt easily. My experience is that most American trained pilots take a considerable time converting to the UK. The time difference is probably about the same as if they had spent longer learning to fly and accepting the adverse weather. They have certainly spent much less time having weather sytems/prediction explained.

I believe that UK students become "better pilots" by building on their experiences during their training rather than waiting until after they have gained a PPL. Obviously they should continue to build up their kitbag of techniques/knowledge post PPL as well. I do not see how they can learn as much about flying in the UK while flogging around Texas VOR to VOR (or dare I mention GPS) as a student training in their home conditions.

A pilot with x hours who has trained in the UK will have a bigger store of experience than the same pilot, with the same hours if they have largely been spent in a good climate abroad.

If part of the goal is to spend time abroad while learning, and if you intend doing a continous course then there are arguments in favour of going to the states.

strafer
29th Mar 2006, 14:32
A Sayers,

They have certainly spent much less time having weather sytems/prediction explained.What? You are aware that the JAA Meterology exam is exactly the same wherever you sit it? What are you trying to say - that only British instructors are able to teach students about wx? I'm not sure what your references to Texas are about (perhaps that's where your American student came from) as the poster specifically asked about Florida, but you should be aware that the weather there is not always CAVOK all day.

The rest of your generalisations are just that - uninformed, from a narrow perspective and just possibly influenced by the fact that your job is training people in the UK. :hmm:

Your are right about the difference in levels of experience - I would not have been able to do touch and gos on a 10,000ft runway at a international airport, or turned on the lights by using the PTT at an unmanned airfield, had I trained in the UK.

dare I mention GPSOf course you can - it's another example of your ignorance on this issue.

englishal
29th Mar 2006, 14:32
A Sayers,

You don't half talk some rubbish. You clearly have no idea!

Ta ta

Julian
29th Mar 2006, 14:57
Mr Sayers,

You obviously have no experience of training in the US with comments like that!

As has been said numerous times on this forum the weather is not 100% CAVOK in the US - or maybe you missed the recent hurricanes and floods on the news???

I agree with the others that the PPL is a licence to learn, no one comes away knowing everything when they get issued that mucky brown A4 laser printed PPL. I have certainly learnt a ton more since I got it and I am still learning at the moment.

My experience is that most American trained pilots take a considerable time converting to the UK. The time difference is probably about the same as if they had spent longer learning to fly and accepting the adverse weather.

Obviously minimal experience, probably verging on zero, as you cant tell me that every US trained pilot you have encounered has required 30 hrs extra training to fly in UK airspace??? :}

Protectionist UK instructors bleating again. :rolleyes:

If you want a PPL in a month then do your exams here and then go over to the US and do the flying there. Its cheaper and you will have a great time, you will be grounded some days as despite what Sayers thinks it not all blazing sunshine, we were regualry hemmed in by the marine layer when I did my PPL as it was coastal. Will take you a couple of hours familiarisation when you get back to the UK, just the different airspace classifications and radio to get used to.

If you dont mind the long wait for a PPL and extra expense or you cant get away due to work, family commitments, etc then do it the UK.

Its horses for courses at the end of the day.

Mariner9
29th Mar 2006, 14:57
Your are right about the difference in levels of experience - I would not have been able to do touch and gos on a 10,000ft runway at a international airport, or turned on the lights by using the PTT at an unmanned airfield, had I trained in the UK.

With respect (and I'm neutral on this issue having trained in both the UK (including T&G's at a 7,723foot international runway :E ) and the US, I wouldn't say the above were the best examples to indicate why training in the US is sufficient preparation for UK flying.

The only important fact is that the CAA/JAR deem that US training at certain establishments is sufficient for issue of a PPL. End of story (or should be)

Paris Dakar
29th Mar 2006, 15:03
A Sayers,

I am delighted you are an above average pilot

No I'm not! I received what I believe to be first class instruction at the school I attended.

When I returned to blighty I joined my local club to begin building on what I had been taught.

Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of folk back here who amused at my 'funny' style log book or passed comments about the "CAA giving licences away in Corn Flakes packets" but that comes with the territory I suppose.

The other comments I frequently hear is "You'll struggle with the RT and Nav" WTF! I find flying over the flat land of Florida more testing than dealing with the terrain at home (and no, I don't have a GPS, and I've never used one - ever). As for the RT, yes there are some differences but it's not that difficult.

It's funy how much us US trained pilots must learn? Just in case there are any UK trained pilots reading this and thinking about hour-building in the US, be careful, the RT is a bit strange and the Nav is different - hope you don't struggle too much!

strafer
29th Mar 2006, 15:23
wouldn't say the above were the best examples to indicate why training in the US is sufficient preparation for UK flyingMe neither - which is why I didn't.

A Sayers
29th Mar 2006, 17:22
Julian.

"You obviously have no experience of training in the US with comments like that!"

When I flew out of Fort Myers, Pine Shadows AP, Sarasota, St Augustine (on edge of a Hurricane) and loads of other fields in Florida I think I was trained/training in the US.

"...you cant tell me that every US trained pilot you have encounered has required 30 hrs extra training to fly in UK airspace??? "

I can't and I didnt. I said "The time difference is probably about the same as if they had spent longer learning to fly and accepting the adverse weather". If this is inadaquately worded I mean that a US pilot will take as many hours to achieve a set standard of flying as a UK trained pilot. At the point in time they return to the UK the US pilot lacks UK experience. I never mentioned thirty hours, but I do consider that a US trained pilot will need 30 hours extra to reach the same standard of flying as a UK PPL who has done 30 hours post PPL. Again, I believe that when a US trained pilot returns home he lacks some of the skills learnt training in the UK.

(My) minimal experience you refer to is a little bit more than that. I use my own name (its Andy) so you can always go and find me on the list of
FE(A)s. I am very happy with my CFS grade thank you.

Protectionist UK instructors bleating again - I said "it hurts to say it but it can be worthwhile." Hardly protectionist. Bleating?

I consider that I gave impartial advice based upon my own experience, the pro's and the cons. My UK experience includes an unpaid hobby instructing at a school that charges £85ph for a PA28. Because 90% of members have PPL's its mainly check/standards flights rather than ab initio. The students at this base do not spend the 4/5 thousand extra that you refer to. Annother organisation I fly for (unpaid) charges as little as £50ph, but I hope that you and potential readers do not become eligible for this rate.

OK the views are mine and based on my experience - that applies to your views as well. You should be free to give your views without suffering personal attacks based on ignorance of the subject (you or I) and the circumstances in which the views are given. Take the productive, reasoned and persuasive comment of 'englishal' as example of the high standard of debate sometimes resorted to by some contributers.

Your last two paragraphs restate my own views except I also advised getting the medical before going abroad.

strafer
I find (again my own experience - I even give my real name) that pilots returning from the US lack experience of weather in circumstances when it might/might not be ok to fly, but the decision involves local judgement and experience. Generaly I find them overconfident and have seen some nasty results and a lack of appreciation that 'it is better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air etc'.

I found US weather to be either great or really bad. I know the US has shades of grey in met, but the outer isles and the Scottish mountains have more, and require a level of local knowledge that is not gained in Florida et al. The same argument applies to pilots trained in East Anglia coming north. Train where you intend to fly if you want to get the most out of it. On the other hand, learn to fly in Alaska/Rockies in winter and I am sure you will come back packed with more experience than most UK PPL's.

Your ref to taking the 18 months to gain a licence in the UK suggests that the trainee is part time. American PPL's can take as long if only one or two hours a month are flown.

You make a lot of inferrals as to what I said which I did not make. If thats how you read them I appologise for poor penmanship on my part. As an example, I could reiterate and say I think you understate you ability. I am sure that you could do touch and goes on a 10,000 foot runway implying that you meant that you were not able to do that. This of course is not what you meant. My own view would be that I would prefer you to learn to fly on a 500m runway of the sort you will encounter in the UK. Having a few big runways under your belt doesnt give you much relevant experience. On the other hand, have you been into Bruntingthorpe or Machrahanish, sorry, Campbeltown?

Your comment "...uninformed, from a narrow perspective ". You are correct, my experience is narrow and limited to my own views gained around the world since I went solo in 1971.

"...and just possibly influenced by the fact that your job is training people in the UK". I fly as a hobby now, not as a job so I dont have anything to protect. I havent made my living as an instructor since '99. I did my twin training and 25 more hours in ***Florida****. Most of my present SEP time is spent teaching ex US PPL's or those who had to come back without completing the course. Rather a lot of the latter. I also give ground exams and help to those going to the US.

I think having been through both systems my views are as good as any when responding to a request for them. You are allowed to disagree.

I will always defer to the greater spread of experience and judgement of the likes of the anonymous 'englishal's' skilled and critical analysis of my views.

Whirlybird
29th Mar 2006, 18:34
Phew!!!!!!!

How can where to learn to fly provoke such strong reactions? :confused: I'm sure it says something about he people writing, but I'm damned if I know what!

One thing that no-one seems to have pointed out...

An intensive course far from home, whatever country it's in, is something separate from everyday life. It suits some people and not others. I did both my CPL and FI course like that, because I had to. I loathed it. I would NEVER do an intensive course if I had the chance of doing something more slowly.

Learning more slowly with lessons once or twice a week becomes a part of your life. It gives you something to look forward to. How long it takes and exactly what it costs may be less important than the fact that you enjoy the journey as much as the goal, and have something to look forward to every week. I did both my PPL(A) and PPL(H) like this; it took lots of hours and time and money, but with hindsight, I wouldn't have done it differently.

Anyone planning to do an intensive course, anywhere, needs to decide if that is the right way for them to learn. For me it isn't. I did an intensive diving course too, and I didn't like that any better. I've finally learnt - no more intensive courses for me!

So think about your own style and preferences of learning as much as the country and weather before swanning off to the US for four weeks. It could be the best decision you ever made....or the worst. And no-one but you knows which it will be. :(

Flap40
29th Mar 2006, 18:59
This thread makes me think that US trained pilots are far more defensive than UK instructors.

I'm also intreguied that Strafer managed to mention the "O" word (or at least its acronym) without the mods pulling it :)

BRL
29th Mar 2006, 19:21
Well spotted Flaps. Possibly not spotted due to fact that I am not logging on that much this week and missed it yesterday. Normal service will resume on Friday!!!

Regarding the edit by the way, OBA are not allowed any mention in this forum at all. Any link to them or mention, gets removed (if spotted in time!) or the thread will be merged with the thread in Wannabees forum. Nothing personal and most of you know that anyway. :)

Paris Dakar
29th Mar 2006, 20:25
BRL,

OBA are not allowed any mention in this forum at all. Any link to them or mention, gets removed (if spotted in time!) or the thread will be merged with the thread stuck at the top of the Wannabees forum. Nothing personal and most of you know that anyway

That thread is un-stuck now, yet we still cannot metion them anywhere else despite the original poster in this thread asking for the names of schools in Florida!?

Whirlybird,

Please see my earlier post - I did mention that intensive training might not suit everyone.

Flap40,

This thread makes me think that US trained pilots are far more defensive than UK instructors

So why is that then?

BRL
29th Mar 2006, 20:40
Ok, ammended to; "post/threads, will be merged with thread in Wannabees." :)

englishal
30th Mar 2006, 07:08
US pilots tend to be more defensive, because when they return to the UK, many UK instructors look down their nose at them. On my first ever checkout on my return to the UK with my shiny new PPL, on the taxy out to the runway the instructor asked me where I learned to fly. When I said "America" he said "oh, we don't like those here". Funnily enough, after the 1 hour checkout (Bournemouth) we landed and he said "you flew very well", signed me off and off I went flying the clubs warriors all over the place. Still p*ssed me off though.

From my perspective I gained a lot of experience during my "intensive" $5000 PPL course which took about 5 weeks - noth that I knew it at the time, I thought is was normal. I flew to Big Bear in the mountains at about 7000' (my choice to go to these places) , flew through mountain passes, learned how to lean properly, landed at Catalina Island several times, flew into major international aiports, became familar with special procedures like land and hold short operations, and was totally comfortable with RT from day 7 or so (you had to be). This is one of the "complaints" by UK instructors, that RT is so different. This is not the case and in fact I'd go so far as to say that on my return I found the RT a piece of P*ss - if anything it is easier over here as ATCOs are more precise in their terminology. There was always a 10kt cross wind in the afternoons which at first I used to dread, but you have to learn to deal with them.

True, I never landed at a small grass strip in America, but did land at some fairly short airfields. Landing on grass is no different really, and I did it on my 1 hour checkout with the instructor. He was happy, and so was I and since then I have landed on many grass strips.

It is also not correct to assumer the US has better weather. I was over in California in early march, and despite being instrument rated was pretty much grounded due to overcast and icing levels (isolated severe icing) at 4000' and orthographic thunderstorms hugging the mountains. Even the desert areas, although they can have 100 miles of vis, I have been out there during frightening weather. It is not often you get thunderstorms towering up to 50,000' in the UK, and it can be very lonely when you are surrounded by mars-like terrain. I met a couple of brits over there one summer who were planning to take an Archer III, with 3 POB and luggage into Big Bear in the middle of a summers day. Had they been allowed to get on with it, that would have been the last of them.

I have no problem with people learning to fly wherever they want and don't slag off british trained pilots. I did it in the USA for a bit of an adventure holiday in 2000, and loved it so much went back and gained my instrument rating in 2001, my SE/ME commercial in 2003, and yet own an aeroplane kept at a small unlicenced field in the UK. I don't have a problem with long spells away from home, I do it for a job anyway, and my Mrs came out with me for much of it and we had a great laugh. We go back at least twice per year and rent something nice and new (brand new DA40 G1000 in March for $140 per hour) to play with. The nice thing is that as regulars, we don't need constant checkouts to be allowed to take these machines away, and if we do require the 3 T/O and L/D for insurance purposes, the instructors just jump in and do it for free.

Hopefully later this year it'll be the TwinStars, then I really will feel happy flying in the mountains ;)

Julian
30th Mar 2006, 07:42
Sayers,

Well EA beat me to it!

I am glad to see that you have actually flown in the US (be it minimal!) and I take my hat off to your unpaid instruction :ok: , something I used to do as well but not in the avitation industry.

Your original comment was

My experience is that most American trained pilots take a considerable time converting to the UK. The time difference is probably about the same as if they had spent longer learning to fly and accepting the adverse weather.

then ...

I never mentioned thirty hours, but I do consider that a US trained pilot will need 30 hours extra to reach the same standard of flying as a UK PPL who has done 30 hours post PPL.

So both newly minted PPLs have done 30 hrs hour building post PPL....so if you take the example of my mate who took 90+ hours to complete his PPL and say myself who took 62 when I passed I would now be 92 hours and he would be on 122 and we are both same standard according to your statement.

As EA says there is a 'down your nose' attitude at places to US trained pilots, which is probably why we stand up for ourselves. Funnily enough if you go to the US they moan about UK trainied pilots. As I have said on a previous thread, the famous one told over there is the 2 airline pilots who took a 172 into a meteor crater .... and then could not get it out again!!! :}

I do fly in both the US and UK, I also own an aircraft share in the UK and have undertaken post PPL instruction in the UK.

I actually believe that I got more experience by learning in California rather than at my local flying school which having spoken to others seem to go between the same points all the time. I had a great instructor in the US who didnt mind combining doing a PPL (and later the IR) with a bit of 'sight seeing' so hence I flew around quite a large area of the Western US between San Fran and the Mexican border and as far inland as Arizona. Again dealing with high density alitudes, ski resorts, wind sheer, forest fires and even an Apache coming along us during a trip past 'Longrifle' at Camp Pendleton!

At the point in time they return to the UK the US pilot lacks UK experience.

Yes I ahree with you, there are differences when you arrive back in the UK (I am sure just as you found when you went over to the US), but most of these are covered by a couple of hours familiarisation which can be combined with the usually compulsory club checkout. I have a 1 hour checkout on my return and was signed off straight away at White Waltham and Bournemouth. The instructors that instantly say "Oh well you are going to need another 15 hrs" are just after your money and you should be finding someone else to fly with.

Whirly makes a valid point, intensive courses are that and arent for everyone. Its no holiday and you may end up upsetting the other half if he/she is along with you expecting one!

Julian.

P.S. My own name as well :)

SkyHawk-N
30th Mar 2006, 08:14
Last night I got to thinking what I have found different between flying in the USA and the UK. I have flown in several US States and it made me realise how it varies between each of them.

Before posting a list I thought I would ask for feedback on whether this is a good idea or not, I don't want to pour more gas on the USA/UK fire? Maybe this should be a new thread?

I'd be interested to see what other experiences are out there.

Skyhawk.

Paris Dakar
30th Mar 2006, 13:32
SkyHawk-N,

Good idea!

A seperate thread would make sense thus allowing the original poster of this thread the chance to get the answers he sought without a total hijack.

PD

A Sayers
30th Mar 2006, 15:05
BRL
I dont often have as much time as I would like looking at PPRUNE so I was not aware that we were not allowed to mention a Florida based flight training school ***. Are there any more schools in this category or are they uniquely litigious and easily bruised?

Englishal
You have clearly had experience of some poorly motivated instructors in the UK based on what you say. If you had flown with clubs local to me after your return you would have been pointed at some club member and requested to accompany them on a few cross countries, perhaps cost sharing. Maybe land on a beach or two under supervision of an experienced PPL for example, something for which training in America probably did not prepare you. An interesting use of an aircraft often done up here. I am sorry you had a negative experience but we are not all like that, honest. You should however try to place such attitudes as you encountered in context. My narrow personal perspective again I know, but I have had to correct a 'few' misconceptions about what is safe/legal UK operations. Most UK instructors will have a store of such experiences to tell. The American, French, Australian, Canadian, Malaysian, German instructors etc I have had the pleasure of working with also had similer stories of Brits in their countries. These excellent non UK instructors all argue with equal passion however that if you want to fly in their countries you should train there.

There are drawbacks with learning to fly in America and anyone with knowledge of both systems would be failing in their duty not to point them out. It is neither helpful or supportive of your case in favour of training in America to jump down the throat of anyone who holds views you interpret as less enthusiastic than your own. Equally there are many advantages in favour of American training which you ommited completely. The most significant being price and weather. To summarise arguments against the value of training in America as "a load of Tosh" is less than adaquate and reflects very poorly on you. Do you really mean it is wise to pay in advance and not obtain the protection that comes from a credit card, as but one example? Consider the sad tales of people left without money or redress by Flying Schools that either didn't deliver the goods, went broke or that they just fell out with. Consider why certain school(s?) dont want their name mentioned - is it because of happy and contented customers such as you? By all means give your views of perceived prejudice, you are sometimes probably right in this opinion. Explain the benefits you believe you received from training in America. That is all good and proper. Do please be a little less intemperate when dealing with others views. However much you may make statements I do not agree with, and I dont know yet that I do disagree with you, I will however maintain your right to free speech even if you remain behind a protective pen name. I would never describe your or any one elses views as "Tosh".

Julian
"(be it minimal!)"
I only mentioned the twin training and flying I did there. I did not consider hours instructing relevant to the original question.

I dont support your argument on respective hours or the meaning of my words. Your failure to understand what I meant is my own fault in expressing my views poorly. I am guilty of trying to use an overly simplified analogy for a complex situation with many variables. Instructors often have to do that in order to be understood, full understanding comes with further experience. I hope one day to get something close to it.

SkyHawk N.
Excellent idea.

Have Fun all.

Paris Dakar
30th Mar 2006, 15:28
A Sayers,

I was the one that mentioned 'Tosh' therefore am I right in presuming that your second paragraph to Englishal is actually aimed at me? If it is, I'm more than happy to respond ;)

englishal
30th Mar 2006, 16:13
yea, I was starting to wonder what I'd said:)

EGCC4284
2nd Apr 2006, 17:35
A big thanks to all for posting reply's to this thread.

If possible, can anyone recommend any flight training schools out in Florida or any other part of the states.

My friend is a 43 year old single mum who has a degree in ???? something. Cant remember. She is a nurse specialising in physio for patients with life threatening injuries. She spends most of her time visiting patients at home whilst they are recovering after treatment.

She says that an intensive course is the one for her and wants to get it done ASAP. She intends leaving her 9 year old son with her mum in the UK when she is doing the flying in the states. I have told her to do all her exams, medical and RT course here before she goes.

Any advice, recommendation and contact details for schools in the US PMd to me would be gladly welcomed.

She may want to get her commercial licence one day but is just thinking about her PPL for the time being.

She has been for a couple of flights with me and want to buy a share in a 150 when she returns back to the UK.

She will then get lots of shared flying within our group so getting up to speed with the UK stuff should not be a problem.

I did my PPL at Welshpool in 4 and a half weeks in August 1999. That flying school has now moved on. A shame as is was a great set up and I had the best 4 weeks of my life.

I have printed this thread off and will post it to her tomorrow.

If anyone can also PM me as to what the O@@ thing is all about or lead me to a link as to why it cannot be mentioned, that would be also welcomed.

US school recommendations in a PM most welcome.

Thanks Rob

mcgoo
2nd Apr 2006, 18:23
EGCC4284 pm sent.

Paris Dakar
2nd Apr 2006, 19:06
EGCC4284,

Check your PMs :)

PD

A Sayers
2nd Apr 2006, 20:07
English Al and Julian. My sincere apology for transposing Julian's remark about 'Tosh'. I was actualy aggrieved by englishal's "You don't half talk some rubbish. You clearly have no idea!"

I do not consider my advice rubbish, nor do most people consider 'I have no idea' I accept happily that my views may be different than yours - perhaps not on the value of training abroad but at least on the need to present both sides of a situation.

foxmoth
2nd Apr 2006, 20:37
I am not about to join in the debate of US vs UK learning, but if she is going to Florida I would recommend starting early November, flights out will probably be cheaper and the Wx certainly much better than the summer months.:hmm:

Julian
4th Apr 2006, 14:42
Sayers, I think you will find it was Strafers remoark about Tosh you transposed.

I didnt mention the word either.....

strafer
4th Apr 2006, 15:03
Yes you did - just then.

Paris Dakar
4th Apr 2006, 15:03
Julian,

T'was me who said 'tosh' and not Strafer, and I offered 'A Sayers' a response (see my prev post but one).

strafer
4th Apr 2006, 15:06
Actually it was both of us PD. On the first page, I suggested that this thread would soon be full of 'uninformed tosh' re gaining a PPL in the US.

I rest my case.

Paris Dakar
4th Apr 2006, 15:13
strafer,

You are right.

I'll get me coat.......

strafer
4th Apr 2006, 15:18
No need PD, you may be a user of tosh, but you're not a repeater of it ;)

Alvin Steele
4th Apr 2006, 20:06
Having had nearly eleven years to ponder the US v UK PPL training conundrum (I learnt at #!* in 95) I've arrived at the conclusion that it really depends on the individual concerned, aside from the usual benefits of the US route....ie low cost, better weather, I found it was good to get away from it all and immerse myself in an aviation environment for 3 weeks, to be free from the pressures of family and friends....and work, for example, if I had a bad lesson out there I was able to put things right straight away rather than having an interruption for a few weeks (which would be likely here with iffy weather) and having to fester on the 'problem' till the next lesson.......when you would have to play 'catch-up' again to get to the point you were on the last flight.
Additionally, you might find loved ones would question whether it was worth all the trouble and expense, and at a low point in a UK PPL course you could lose heart or be coerced off flying by well meaning friends
......well thats what might have happened to me, so I was glad of the 3 weeks isolation.
Other people will be different.
I'm pleased to say that I've enjoyed both my UK and US flying in equal measure.
One final point, common sense or more accurately....airmanship is vital in any aviation pursuit, and that in my humble opinion cannot be taught.
Like I say, its the attitude of an individual that matters, not where they learnt to fly.
Tim