Weston Looking to Create More Class C Airspace

[dublinpilot]

Any of you flying within Ireland should be interested in this proposal.
Weston to grab airspace and make it Class C (http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=406)
Seems like a lot of airspace for their purposes. I would have thought that Class E would have been more appropriate if something was actually needed. But reading the consultation document, it looks like it's a done deal already. :uhoh:
It's amazing how airports in the UK can operate heavy commercial traffic in Class G with just an ATCSOCA, but in Ireland we need Class C :hmm:
I think this quote from the document tells us a lot about Weston's future :uhoh:
4.8.1 Hitherto, Weston has attracted a large amount of VFR traffic from abroad throughout the year. Notwithstanding the transition to predominant executive/business aircraft use in due course, it is anticipated that Weston will continue to attract visiting General Aviation in the next few years.
If you have a comment to make on it, you must do so by 11 April.
dp

[ronnie3585]

Perhaps its to do with the huge jump in traffic that will be experienced with the Ryder Cup. It wouldnt be much fun having all those choppers bombing around Class G without any real control. In Galway during the races, despite the fact that its Class C, you would really need eyes on every part of your head to spot the choppers!

I would have thought that Class E would have been more appropriate if something was actually needed.

Correct me if im wrong, but I thought Class E wasnt applicable to Ireland?

[MayorQuimby]

Hi dublinpilot.

I'm not so worried about the class 'C' proposal itself (with a few caveats). The airspace situation around Weston is abysmal anyway - almost impossible not to infringe either R or C when operating there at times while keeping within the 'noise abatement' directions.

However, it's the indication of the way the operator is minded about the future of GA at Weston, given in the text you posted from the document, that I am worried about. We could end up having a situation in a few years where our capital is effectively closed for business for light GA ops :uhoh:

[Aussie Andy]

Interesting dp, thanks for the info...

ronnie, I guess that if it were for something like the Ryder cup which is a one-off or annual event then they could just employ a TRA or similar temporary restriction / airspace in a similar way to events like Silverstone here in the UK does (and that is the busiest heli-fest of all I am told!)

Andy :ok:

[nouseforaname]

Dublinpilot.

I fly into weston quite a lot before it was done up and now. I think the guy I think his name is Mansel or something has done a 'triffic job there and he should be welcome to whatever class airspace he wants. I think they have an IFR approach up and coming which will be brilliant. It will take a lot of pressure of Dublin.

Just the other day I was on the closing heading for ILS at Dublin and it brought me right over weston so I cancelled IFR and dropped in. It's a shame they don't approve GPS approaches I could have gone straight in there!

Ireland has a great chance to go like the US airfield wise. I hope it doesn't turn out like England. It will if the wrong man get's behind the IAA wheel

[Aussie Andy]

I read the full ACP (http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=406) on the way home last night... I can see why they have opted for inclusion in an extended Dublin CTR rathern than separate airspace (Class E or whatever) of their own due to the coordination that will be required to cater for interaction with Dublin and Casement IFP's.

I don't see this as just another airspace land-grab (see recent and mooted airspace expansions over here including Luton and Coentry nearby to us for example!). As long as VFR is still adequately catered for, I think in this case you guys are very fortunate as you will get the added benefit os some new instrument approaches!

But presumably it is difficult to get an IR in Ireland (same JAA PPL/IR bind as us I guess, but without the IMC-rating option?) so maybe many PPLs won't be able to take full advantage of the new facilities... shame given your "famous" weather!

Andy :ok:

[MayorQuimby]

Absolutely Aussie Andy. It's not the application for class C that's the problem, but the sentiment towards GA (as opposed to Executive/Business aircraft) expressed in the document which causes concern. Weston is the only GA airport option in Dublin and it appears that the operator is gradually trying to phase out the little people.

There is no doubt that the class C around some airports in Ireland is overkill. However, in this case I think it might actually make sense given the surrounding airspace.

[nouseforaname]

You can't blame the operator for trying to phase out the little people. The big guy's are the ones with the money. Unless Weston Airport is now a registered charity...

[dublinpilot]

The problem is not so much the class of airspace, but what it entails and how it is managed.

For example, in Ireland all flights in Class C airspace (including transits) require a flight plan. Not an an abbreviated radio call like the UK, but a paper flight plan, which must be either phoned or faxed to AIS in Shannon. This must be done at least 1 hour before takeoff. 50 minutes won't work, it needs to be an hour. (Sometimes a full flight plan will be taken over the radio, but this is the exception rather than the rule.)

Class C also means all aircraft must have a Mode C transponder.

The R15, is commonly used for aircraft making the scenic flight to the Blessington Lakes.

Weston's new owners see their future with Biz Jets. In my view the class C is simply a way of being able to gradually both deny light aircraft access to Weston and to sterilise the airspace around it. I think the document makes that pretty clear too.

I've seen elsewhere that someone said that light aircraft happily operate from Dublin Airport. I happen to be a member of one of those club operating from Dublin Airport. Most of this airspace is devoid of aircraft, is is just a big empty chunk of airspace. If Weston goes the same way as Dublin, then within a few short years, we will see our capitals skies sterilised of all light aircraft.

As for the Ryder Cup, as I understand it Weston will be closed to light aircraft then anyway. I'm sure we can all understand that. I'd also have no problem with a temporary class A airspace in the area for the duration.

Ronnie,

You are quite correct in saying that we don't currently have any Class E airspace. So what? Nothing to say we can't make some. It seems to me that this is the perfect answer to the problem. Weston is concerned about protecting their biz jet traffic (IFR), and wish to have an instrument approach.

Having an air traffic controller with a radar screen able to control and separate IFR traffic, and control ALL traffic within Weston's ATZ, and all traffic to the North and East of Weston (Dublin CTR) and all traffic about 1500ft (Dublin CTA) would seem to achieve the same solution, without the drawbacks of the Class C.

Instrument approaches are useless for the majority of light aircraft in Ireland. We have no IMC rating, so if we want to use an instrument approach, then we must do a full JAA IR course. For most this is simply out of their reach.

While I don't blame Weston for trying to grab this airspace to make money, after all they are a commercial enterprise and will seek to make a profit anyway they can, it would appear to me that a limited natural resource (our airspace) is going to be denied to the citizens of this country, in order to facilitate biz jets, the majority of which are not Irish Residents, simply so Weston can make a bigger profit. The IAA should be making a more thorough examination of different solutions.

There are better solutions.

dp

[Aussie Andy]

Hi dp, I see where you are coming from. Class E does sound like it could be a viable solution -- I guess it would also depend on Dublin ATC's position on this.

There is a sentence in 4.8.1 of the doc which on first reading might seem to give some comfort for GA, but on second reading I suppose the underlined words will give cause for concern: Notwithstanding the transition to predominant executive/business aircraft use in due course, it is anticipated that Weston will continue to attract visiting General Aviation in the next few years. And para 5.5.2 speaks of consulting with local flying clubs, but the context seems to be as something of an afterthought and support seems to be weak, i.e. "they have, by and large, been supportive..." - can you ask your local flying club's management what their views are and whether this paragraph fully represents their stance?

So maybe your concerns are valid if you read between the lines. Perhaps the local GA community needs to mobilise and respond to the IAA request for comments by 11 April!

Good luck! And weather permitting I will see you soon (ETA around noon on 30 April) in Weston for my firts visit there!

Andy :ok:

[DRJAD]

Interesting.

I am planning a flight or two to Ireland this year, and Weston is one of our probable destinations. What is this 'Ryder Cup' - event? If an event, when is it, does anyone know? (I'm thinking about the planning of my flights, bearing in mind the comment about Weston being closed to light aircraft at the relevant time(s).)

[conor_mc]

For example, in Ireland all flights in Class C airspace (including transits) require a flight plan. Not an an abbreviated radio call like the UK, but a paper flight plan, which must be either phoned or faxed to AIS in Shannon. This must be done at least 1 hour before takeoff. 50 minutes won't work, it needs to be an hour. (Sometimes a full flight plan will be taken over the radio, but this is the exception rather than the rule.)
dp

dp,

In my own limited experience, Waterford and Sligo have accepted a flight plan to the zone boundary via RT just prior to startup - this may become a regular operational pattern at Weston in lieu of the old "departing to the west" chestnut. Admittedly, that doesn't facilitate arrivals.

DRJAD,

Ryder Cup is a major golf event taking place at the K Club. See http://www.rydercup2006.ie/home.asp for details.

[dublinpilot]

What is this 'Ryder Cup' - event? If an event, when is it, does anyone know?

It's a PGA Golf Tournament. K Club (http://www.kclub.ie/)

It's on from the 19th Sep to 24th Sep 2006.

I have seen nothing official to say that Weston is closed to GA at that time, just heard reports from some pilots based there. So if these dates clash with your planned trip, then I suggest you contact the airport directly.

can you ask your local flying club's management what their views are and whether this paragraph fully represents their stance?

Andy,

An interesting comment. Because one of the flying schools have gradually moved most of their operations to Waterford.

The owner/manager of the most active flying school in Weston, as I understand and am prepared to be corrected, has been the airport manager since Weston was taken over by Jim Mansfield. Looks like he's looked after :ugh:

The local residents will be happy with anything that cuts down traffic. They might not be so happy with jets arriving after dark, but I'm sure that much hasn't been explained to them.

See you soon Andy!

dp

[MayorQuimby]

dp,

The issue of charging never occurred to me. Currently I don't get charged if I transit the Dublin zone. Are you saying Weston would be entitled to charge me if I wanted to fly through this proposed airspace of theirs?

[dublinpilot]

MQ,

No absolutely not. I'm not sure what I said that you interperited as that, but I am not concerned about that at all.

Perhaps it was my comment about Weston management wanting to use the airspace to increase their profits? What I mean by that, is that if they control that airspace, they can quite easily refuse transits through R15, and keep inbound aircraft outside their CTZ, soley to prioritise their Biz Jet traffic. Holding for 20 minutes is far more expensive than a hefty landing fee!

The requirement for flight plans 1 hour before departure would also severly hamper training. Another way of helping them prioritise Biz Jet traffic.

I'm not suggestion that they would charge for the useage of the airspace though!

But a bit of lateral thinking, and I think you have come up with a great scheme! Perhaps if the Government charged airports for controlled airspace by the volume, and class, they wouldn't want as much as possible, but as little as possible!

dp

[FlyingForFun]

Have never been to Dublin at all, let alone flown from Weston.

But I can relate to the dilema, because my home airport, Blackpool, has been steadily attracting more and more commercial traffic in the short time I've been there, and I've been able to watch the effect this has had on GA.

Admittedly, it's not a direct comparison, because Blackpool doesn't (yet) have any airspace other than its ATZ. But in my experience, the effects on GA have been limited to four specific areas:

1) Car parking. The area outside of all the flying clubs has been turned into long-term car parking for fare-paying passengers. The airport has arranged for users of the flying clubs to have free access to the car parks - but the fact is that we have experienced a drop in the number of people who walk up to our flying school with trial lesson enquiries which we believe is because they turn away when they see the car park barrier, before they notice that they will be entitled to park for free.

2) Utilitisation of the main runway. Since there is no parallel taxyway for half of the main runway, and the taxyway that runs parallel to the other half can not support the weight of an airliner, every airliner departing off 28 or arriving on 10 has to back-track the entire length of the runway, which effectively closes the runway for several minutes. Solution is to build a parallel taxyway, which is no doubt what will happen if the airport continues to grow - but this would (IMO) be done to facilitate more airliners, not because it would help GA!

3) Possible closure of smaller runways. There have been rumours about the closure of runways 25/07 and 31/13 for a long time. In fact, the fourth runway at Blackpool did close, but that was before I started flying from there.

Building works on the depature end of runway 07 did, in fact, close this runway for a short while. It would have been easy to re-open it by simply reducing the declared distances accordingly, but the aiport authorities apparently decided that the cost of doing this could not be justified, which I interpret as meaning that there was no benefit to the airliners in doing this. But the chaos which was caused by the runway closure caused ATC to look into the rules in more depth, and discovered that the displaced threshold and declared distances for the runways already accounted for a taller obstacle than any of the cranes the builders were using, and the runway re-opened. Hopefully, this experience will encourage the airport to keep the smaller runways open - although they have already decided not to replace the failing runway lights on 31/13, and this runway has been downgraded to daytime use only.

4) Re-fuelling. As the volume of jet traffic increased, this caused big delays for Avgas refuelling. This was solved by installing self-service pumps for Avgas.

I wonder how many of these issues would be relevant at Weston, or if there are any issues at Weston (besides controlled airpsace) which I haven't listed. Interesting comparison, maybe?

FFF
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[dublinpilot]

FFF,

I think the situation at Blackpool will be quite different to Weston.

The main reason for this is that Blackpool gets a lot of Airliners. Ie lots of people in one aircraft. Weston has no, stated, plans to handle commerical traffic. Nothing to say that that wouldn't change in the future though.

But as long as it's just Biz Jets, I don't see much of a problem with the car parking.
Weston has just one runway, and a nice new parallel taxiway. The taxiway should be easily be able to carry the biz jets.

From Westons point of view, they obviously make more out of 1 biz jet arrival than probably 100 light aircraft. By the time they've filled one of those up with fuel, and what ever other services they need I'm sure it's a very large bill.

Weston management I am sure, have no great problem with light aircraft using the airport between the infrequent biz jet movements. The problem essentially lies with noise complaints from neighbours (whos homes were built decades after the airport, but lets not go into that!).

Their solution is to cut down the number of movements, which has already happend to an alarming extent, and gradually force out training, which keeps the neighbours happy. They are quite happy if one biz jet lands instead of 10 light aircraft. Weston are quite happy as they make more out of the biz jet.

Everyone wins.......well......not quite everyone......:{

Anyway, on a different note.....
Have never been to Dublin at all, let alone flown from Weston
Wasn't it November 2004 that you desided to change that????!!!! Isn't it time to put that right???? Summer 2006:ok:

[FlyingForFun]

Gulp!!!

Erm, yes, it was a little while ago, and your invitation is not forgotten. In fact, Mrs-FFF-to-be and I are planning a weekend getaway for her birthday in June, and we thought of visiting. But although Ryanair flights to Dublin are cheap, hotels there aren't...

But you are quite right, the situation at Weston as you describe it doesn't seem anything like over here on the other side of the water.

FFF
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[dublinpilot]

But although Ryanair flights to Dublin are cheap, hotels there aren't...

Oh! You know better than that! I seem to remember making an invitation that didn't involve the need for a hotel ;)

Not there 10-18 June though. Have a club trip planned for then :D

[Sky Conductor]

The problem is not so much the class of airspace, but what it entails and how it is managed.
For example, in Ireland all flights in Class C airspace (including transits) require a flight plan. Not an an abbreviated radio call like the UK, but a paper flight plan, which must be either phoned or faxed to AIS in Shannon. This must be done at least 1 hour before takeoff. 50 minutes won't work, it needs to be an hour. (Sometimes a full flight plan will be taken over the radio, but this is the exception rather than the rule.)
dp

You are correct in saying that all flights in Class C airspace require a flight plan. you are incorrect in saying that a full flight plan is required. All Irish airports with maybe the exception on Dublin will take an abbreviated flight plan if you call 5 mins before zone boundary inbound..all that is required is pob,fuel endurance and elapse time in the zone..simple as that! Obviously if the controller is too busy he may refuse your request..but from personal experience i have never heard of this happening. Same applys if your leaving a Class C airport and flying locally and landing back again, or departing the zone to land in class G airspace..you simply close plan at zone boundary. Its no big deal..with the added bonus of a getting an Air traffic control service!

[dublinpilot]

Do you figure Weston will have the time to do that on a busy summer afternoon?

My experience of training in, and operating out of Weston would suggest that they won't have the time to take such flight plans.

dp

[fireflybob]

Maybe I need to get out more but when I first saw this thread title I thought it referred to Weston-Super-Mare!!

"What the hell do they want Class C Airspace for?" was my initial reaction!