Just to keep King Pong happy (he suggested in Rumours and News that you might like to discuss the up coming French industrial action a little more vigorously on this forum).
The French are going on strike again next Tuesday. It is thought that support this time will be much stronger than for the last one.
Brace yourselves mes amis.........

My colleagues are going on strike on Tuesday too ... Fortunately it's my day off, so I don't have to get directly involved. :ugh: Pray for wind and rain so general aviation doesn't suffer too much.

As for the French - their ATC chaps always go on strike the day I fly out on holiday anywhere! How do they know?! :confused:

Its magic... I've a friend who's studying at uni in france and her lecturers have been on strike for 3 weeks... a little inconsiderate for the studes dontcha think!?

I hear British civil servants and customs are going on strike the same day. So the first day in years when you could pop over to Calais and load up your van with enough booze & fags (for personal use of course) to last you twenty years and the bl@<hidden>@<hidden> shop will be closed.:{

[...] her lecturers have been on strike for 3 weeks...
I'm not sure I would have noticed if my uni supervisor had gone on strike. Never blydi saw the man anyway. :*

I didn't think they had finished the last strike.....

Hard to keep up with these Frenchies. What's it about this time?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4839616.stm
The law allows employers to end job contracts for under-26s at any time during a two-year trial period without having to offer an explanation or give prior warning.
Opposition to the law has led to protests across France and unions have called for a strike on Tuesday.

G-CPTN:

And this is different from work elsewhere HOW? Oh yes, the French are living in a dream world where the "rights" of the employers are somehow deeply subordinate to the "rights" of the employees. The Laws of Economics are as immutable as those of Newtonian mechanics........thus the French and the rest of Europe have enabled the young to enjoy unemployment at rates nearing the Depression era. Paid by the hard workers of France who also support a huge population of immigrants, also unemployed.

OR as a friend of mine said about the French during the Air France (Air Chance?) strike......"that's a country with B*lls, they have a strike, they burn the whole place down."

Rant OFF.

Let us discuss it point after point:

If strikes should have burnt France.............how comes this country has the best productivity/employee in the world and makes some of the best products like Airbus, TGV...... So strikes from old may have been more positive than you think?

"Laws of Economics"...........?
Are they better than "Human Rights"
Putting such an emphasis on them can lead to human destruction.
Did you hear of pollution?
What people call "laws of economics" is only the last version of global theories about which economy university teacher may disagree, and their poor enforcement without vision has led to catastrophy around the world as seen in not so far years: the absurd World Bank policy which was a prejudice for a lot of countries (read Stieglitz for a development, it's easy reading and understandable by everybody).

Now...........
There was no unemployment in ancient Egypt..........in Roma..............in Middle Age Europe.
Deprieving salarymen/women from their rights is only paving the way for a backward turn to slavery.

As same policy is spreading to other countries, as Germany for instance, you will see same protest there.

"Economy" isn't a God in front of which we must knee.............or it seems a God with many churches: the priests you revere, Galaxy, are on top at the moment, but as Capitol is not far from Tarpeïan rock, they can be overthrown and another more human sect could take the temple and rule in the interest of peoples and not only of tycoons (who are those who grasp the more profits from the present preaches).

I will go to Tuesday demonstration with - I hope - a huge number of French people - to make our politician understand their job isn't to level down the citizens.

And there was me thinking Airbus was a consortium.... :rolleyes:
France still lags behind the USA Grandpa. And everyone else is catching up fast, the proudctivity growth rate in France has been zero for the last couple of years. France is still about 10% ahead of the UK, but the USA is about 15% ahead of France.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/images/charts/160.gif

Schools are on strike on tuesday...B88888s...that means another £50 in child care and my wife works the whole day for nothing! Why can't they bl88dy well strike on their inset days or during the copious amount of holiday they have?

Awaiting incoming!:*:*

Isn't France heavily subsidised/biased to their advantage by the EEC?

Grandpa

"Common Agricultural Policy" - No Further Comment Necessary ! :}

Be careful if you go out demonstrating, and if you do, can you get me a Digital TV and DVD Player ? :E :ok:

Ah yes the sound of revolution, Tumbrel wheels on cobbled streets and the clatter of knitting needles is in the air.
"Tiz a far far better thing I do now", swoooosh thunk, thud !
:rolleyes:

OK, agreed, the present Labour laws in France do need to change - at present the social costs on employers are so high that Companies run on minimum employee numbers , which is why the French that have got jobs are in general a damn sight more productive than their Uk equivalents. However the current government proposals (the dreaded CPE) would give the employers the right to act like Victorian mill owners - "you're under 26, great, I'll employ you ( but in 1 year, 11 months, and 30 days I'll will fire you with no reason and no compensation).........It's b***dy sad really, hearing some of the more niave youngsters claim in radio interviews that "it won't be like that, once my boss sees what a good worker I am he/she will offer me a permanent contract" ......ohh really!
I'm bringing up kids in France, I will be seriously inconvenienced by Tuesday Strike, and I know the labour system needs sorting out for their sakes, but on this issue I think the Unions and the Students have got a valid case.

No, they do not, except that this law should be valid for everybody, and not just for those under the age of 26.

Whatever one’s political affiliation is: Just look at history and one will see (in general):

The less restrictive the labor laws have been, the lower the unemployment rate.

Of course, there are folks that think places like Cuba are paradise and the whole world should be like it. Fine, go and live there. We’ll see you back soon.



Grandpa, it is neither the government, nor the big companies that keep the economy running, but the small and mid-sized businesses. Now tell me: You have a business with, say, 50 employees. Times are good, you need more workers. So you hire them. After a while, times are not as good any more and you have two choices: either you shed workers (which have paid into the government’s coffers to have some unemployment coverage, so are going to be looked after for some time to come) or you keep them on, keep paying them their salaries (without having an adequate cash inflow: the times are bad, remember) and risk bankruptcy. This is not economic theory, this is the cold, hard reality.
So what are you going to do? If you, as the employer, know that firing people is going to be virtually impossible in bad times, you are not going to hire them in the first place, but rather you are going to install robots. According to some well know weekly (from the UK, I know, but still...), France is the country in Europe with the highest rate of automation in manufacturing.

Again, whatever political “color” you have: look at examples from history and you will see this very mechanism “at work” all the time (in small, mid-sized and big business alike). Sorry.

So the French students should demonstrate to have this law instituted not just for the young (which is hardly going to help those in need) but for everybody. ;)

by the EEC You're so behind the times old chap...! :}

It's the EU now - get on with it! ;)

I'll employ you ( but in 1 year, 11 months, and 30 days I'll will fire you with no reason and no compensation)..........


I agree on the no reason but you ll have a one month notice and for the no compensation it is only right for the employer side because as usual the governement will be here for you and pay all the unemployment benefits and as far as i know it will be even higher as it is part of this new "CPE" law.

The car (automobile) manufacturers in Detroit are in deep doodah, because of their 'commitment' to their employees. Many are being paid full pay for attending the works and sitting doing NOTHING. The employment 'overheads' on EACH vehicle exceed $2000 (and that is the non-productive employment overheads, partly pensions and medical insurance).
In the old days of hire-and-fire the region went from boom to bust as the economy fluctuated, but the current 'low' is destroying the employers (GM, Ford and Chrysler), and they are technically bankrupt.
I don't know the answer. Perhaps someone here does?
Admittedly they've all been caught-up in the energy-crisis (producing 'trucks' or SUVs as these are exempt from the energy-conservation regulations!) and as the cost of fuel is rising steeply, the customers would like smaller vehicles (which just happen to be available from the Japanese manufacturers - and they ain't half bad, better in fact in reliability than the standard American car).
Is it just the US Auto Manufacturers themselves to blame, or are they hidebound by the employment 'laws'? Maybe the strength of the Unions (UAW) is/was too strong, and now they are strangling the Golden Geese?

Does 'Man' have a right to employment (and job security)?

The American Founding Fathers got it right with:

“…unalienable Rights, that among these are the Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness…”

Note that it is not “Happiness”, but the “pursuit of Happiness”. :ok:

Grandpa:

I am deeply touched by your boundless faith in the French government's ability to arrange the affairs of each citizen's life.

My preference is that each citizen make their own arrangements with the absolute minimum governmental interference. No, I do not consider America ideal--it has far too much say in daily life, but based on law and our taxes it is far less than in France and our wealth and freedom reflect that balance.

GF

This is just out today: According to a newscast by Switzerland’s public television station a Swiss union, the ‘Unia’, has announced that they have to decrease their workforce by 75 people. The union management sees this as the only way to reduce their budget deficit…

What has this world come to if even the unions are firing their own workers due to economic pressure :{ :{

Needless to say, they continue blasting any other businesses that do the same :yuk:

First one: "YOU CAN'T FIRE AN EMPLOYEE"
Hey Yes you can!
You may fire him for "faute grave"................but you have to give evidence.
You may fire him when workload is low.....................but you have to give evidence, it is called "licenciement économique".
You may also push the eldest to retire..................while, at the same time a law has been passed to force workers to work many years more.
About this 26 years limit: it's now vastly knowned in French public that this government wants to destroy the normal contract between worker and employer, "contrat à durée indétermiée" or CDI.
We are aware that the next pace will be to extend this new contract (CPE) to each and every worker, making it so easy to fire any employee for any or without any reason.
This is why all ages feel concerned and there is a so large confrontation: grown up and eldest people know that when they defend the youth rights, they defend THEIR proper rights too.
Last but not least: this government has lost every national election since two years (remember the aborted EU Constitution project) and they are losing support day after day. Plus: they are mined by rivalry between Prime Minister Villepin and Minister of Interior Sarkozy who both run for Presidency next year: French voters think they run only for their personnal future and not for us.

That is right. The employer has to give some good reasons, backed by evidence. If this reason and the evidence is contested by the employee, which he / she often does and which is his / her right to do, the case ends up in front of a court. This court will then have to decide, which will take time. This process is making it a strenuous exercise to fire people (which, of course, is the intention), which keeps employers from hiring prospective employees in the first place (which is the unintended consequence). As always, the devil is in the details.

Of course, loosing the rights that protect you (if you belong to that section of the populace that is in employment) is a frightening prospect. It is no wonder, therefore, that people of all ages take to the streets. But will France be able to continue on with such a rigid labor system that has been shown in the past to inhibit employers from hiring people? There are thousands of students (and hundreds of anarchists and criminals exploiting the situation for their own illegitimate gains) on the streets, but you never hear any good, constructive and sensible alternative proposals offered by any of them. (Or is it that maybe the international press is not carrying that information to those of us who live in the rest of Europe?) All they collectively seem to be able to come up with is “NO”. That is pretty damn poor and therefore, IMHO, they should collectively leave University and stop calling themselves “students”.

As to the posturing of the two princes: The political situation right now (a weak president, two primary hopefuls, a plethora of other candidates from all political shades, some of them quite popular and well known) is bound to produce one big looser in the coming months: France.

What a shame…

.....But the facts are many, many people were sacked and still are who don't ask for protection of the law.

Another mistake from you Thomay:

"The less restrictive the labour laws have been, the less unemployment rate"

Pure propaganda:

From 1950 till 1980 we enjoyed a low unemployment rate, with wages growing..............and the same kind of contracts we strike to defend now, the same judicial procedure...........
From that it's easy to conclude the present situation is due to the recent decisions made by many governments, which changed the rules in the benefit of management.

While top manager are getting golden retribution and stock-options, they sack employees in western countries, in order to make more profit from workers in asian countries dominated by middle-age labour organisation, not to speak about the bizarre alliance between Communism and Capitalism in China.

It's also against this alliance that workers are fighting in France.

And this fight is also in the interest of small enterprises you seem to appreciate so much.

The problems here is that our political leaders are believers of a religion which is new for them: they do everything in favour of big business and will never deviate from this path: they are not pragmatic, while US administration talks about "f'ree market" and turn to protectionnism as soon as their national interests are at stkes as seen in the harbour affair recently.

The only mean to inject some reason in our leaders is to block their ultra-capitalist projects which is destroying society in many parts of the world.

Thank you, ol’ chap, for “honoring” me for doing something I did not even know I was doing. ;)

I propose that we agree to disagree before some poor soul gets hurt falling off his chair after having suffered an instant and serious attack of boredom by looking at this thread. :ok:

It would seem this strike tactic works. You are all having a lively debate about French labour laws, I don't suppose that would have happened without this dagger of industrial action being waved in our faces.
I don't personally have a problem with folk taking industrial action, life for all of us would be very different if there was no right to strike. What does p!ss me off is that this industrial action affects many people from other nations, particularly in the aviation industry. I don't mind them bringing their own country to a standstill but the likes of Maastricht, Geneva, Zurich, Madrid London and Rhine control will have to work their nuts off to compensate and the already hard pressed airlines of just about every European country will have a real cost to pay for this.
By all means have an argument with the missus in your own house but don't wake the neigbours up. It's so common!

I don't understand the fuss about British civil servants going on strike.

The work-shy t*ssers do nothing anyway. (Or is that just the MoD?)

Please, could anyone tell us how to go on strike without being a "nuisance" somewhere for somebody.

If this could be, it would mean your work isn't needed...........