So you've got your CPL/IR/MCC (ATPL)... what now???

[DANNY M]

With the so-called 'frozen' ATPL that most FTO's are promoting what can you expect with regards to job prospects?

I fully understand that it is not going to be easy; I am just after your experiences, what are the opportunities?

Which airlines are willing to take you on as a newly graduated cadet?

:confused: :uhoh: :sad: :eek: :ok: ... and all emotions in between???

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

It might be worth using the search facility mate, threads of this nature have been covered quite a number of times.

Are you in this situation?

[DANNY M]

No ... not yet :ok:


I am just at the beginning of my professional training and looking at the options placed in front of me.

Is it better,

a: Do a so called 'frozen' ATPL with a reputable FTO (Integrated/modular) whether it be in the Uk/USA and get into the job market as soon as possible looking for your first placement.

b: Look at the opportunities in the USA or elsewhere that will provide approximately or over 1500 hours TT (FTE for example), and therefore hopefully providing a better possibility of securing that first job, but taking that longer in training before looking for that first dream position.

c: Something else that I have not yet considered?

:confused:

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

It is not quite as straight forward to answer these questions as you may think, simply because there are so many variables.

Like I say, if you read through other posts you will find all sorts of information regarding what is available in the industry in terms of employment. Everyone has a different story to tell, and have different opinions on what is the 'best' way forward.

From my own limited experience very few will go straight into an airline and fly jets, however, it does happen. A few friends of mine have gone down the SSTR route, and are now flying B737's, and some people I know have taken time to build experience and network other ways and have landed jobs that way, however it has taken alot longer, I guess it depends on how patient you are, and what your personal circumstances are. Personally, I do not have the money to splash on a TR, and to be quite honest don't really think it is necessary. I have chosen to instruct. It helps me keep current, I have the oppotunity to give something back to the industry, and above all, it is alot of fun!

All the best with it mate. It may take you 1 month, it may take you 10 years, however, I am a firm believer in, all good things come to those who work hard and wait ;).

[Cutoff]

Actually it is a good question. A quick look through some of the posts on Interviews and jobs section of the Wannabes area will highlight that it is important that you have a plan once you have completed a fATPL. It is easy to plan your flying right up until completion of the MCC, your path is laid out in front of you, it is even straight forward to budget to this point (not find the budget but plan what you are going to spend at least). But it is vital that you also have a plan once the training is complete. You need to stay current, you need to keep the hours ticking over. I am not saying what sort of hours, can of worms that one, but you cannot expect to have the mins required for an fATPL and then walk into a Jet job, it happens of course, but do not expect it - (and ignore A320 riders posts too).

[DANNY M]

Im not asking anyone to reveal (if there is a way) how to get a job as soon as ou finish your FATPL, I am just lookimg for people to give advice on what experiences they have had.

I have not yet started my training and as cutoff said you can plan the structure of your path right up until you finish your MCC, but then what?

Just after advice thats all, not the 'golden route' :ok:

[thebeast]

I totally agree with Cutoff. The training is on the whole a great experience (obviously there is a bit of exam stress), but as he says it is all laid out in front of you. You know pretty much what route you will take PPL, ATPL exams, CPL, IR, MCC. After that you do finish and think crikey now what!

Which is where I am now. Basically you can send out CVs and fill out the online forms by the hundred and hope you get lucky (if you’re an integrated student you might, that’s might be put forward for some interviews). So if you get lucky you might get a job straight off.

If like me and you don’t you have to get a regular job to live off and weigh up your options, which are as I see it…..

1. Stay current and keep applying hoping to get lucky – this is not really adding anything to your CV in terms of hours but I guess you never know.
2. Do an instructor rating – quite costly with very poor pay although a good way of building hours and I think it is looked on quite favourably by recruiters.
3. Try to get a job (unpaid) towing gliders /dropping parachutists – I am attempting this at present. As a means of building hours.
4. Type rating – very costly and a big gamble but if it pays off then your laughing, if it does not then you are in deep debt. Also comes in many forms the completely random off the cuff type rating, the SSTR linked to an airline i.e. Ryan Air and the ones where you buy hours as well like Wizz Air through Storm Aviation (costs a fortune but afterwards you have 500 on a jet and your off).

Basically it is pretty tough going as everyone believes they will get a job straight off no matter what they say and the reality is that the low hours job market is extremely competitive.

Rolls your dice takes your chance

[A320rider]

why don't you look for a job?, visit your local airport, send cv, email,...

maybe you will receive a call tomorrow, maybe in 20 years(like me), ...
try what beast says, but there is still no guaranty!

[Cavallier]

Actually I agree with Cat 3 C. Make upi your own mind, but if you really want it instructing is a wonderful way to build up hours, confidence, skill and you have great fun and meet great people!

Good Luck

The Cav:cool:

[piperindian]

a JAA fATPL is probably the most useless thing in the known universe. :(
you need hours on type (preferably jet but sometimes turbine will do) to be considered anywhere.

[DANNY M]

a JAA fATPL is probably the most useless thing in the known universe. :(
you need hours on type (preferably jet but sometimes turbine will do) to be considered anywhere.


That is my point, you spend 25-50K getting your so called FATPL, but then what... spend anther 20K getting a TR?

If you have not got that kind of money, and i know most have not, what do you do with your CPL IR/MCC???

:{

[Gufo]

The thing which MUST be destroyed is the fATPL --> Airline job link. Hence the abominations like paying for TR, line training and the kind.

Think of fATPL --> GA, glider&ads towing, instructing.

You will have the armour to fight with the airlines only later; if they advertise for low-hours F/Os, it's only because these poor guys are a wonderful, complain-free way to cut their expenses when sitting at the balance approval meeting.
But they CAN AFFORD TO TRAIN YOU. It's only that you're supposed to have your weapons, when you go there and listen to them crying, they don't have the money. Bullsh*t. But to be in a strong position, you have to go through all the phases.
Aside from the aforementioned reason, making your way up slowly is going to be fun!! I always say going from the FTO to an airline is like losing the largest part of a nice movie ;)

It's going to be hard anyway, if you start from the bottom, but at least you'll be talking the same language as your "targets"!

[Craggenmore]

Actually I agree with Cat 3 C. Make upi your own mind, but if you really want it instructing is a wonderful way to build up hours, confidence, skill and you have great fun and meet great people! Well said that Man!

[A320rider]

the atp route is not just some exams to pass, it s putting a gun in your mouth and ask an airline to pull the trigger for you...do not forget to ask them to place 5 bullets in the barillet...


even with a flight instructor ticket and some hours on light aircraft, you still do not have the 500hours required to fly for an airline. :{

meet good folks to be a FI? ok, and then what???
log hours? ok, but who really cares of my 1000h of cessna 150?

keep current and apply ( and keep your money until someone come with a PAID job for you): yeahhhh!, sounds great....this is what I am doing!:ok:

[Heffer]

- Keep your IF skills current (even if just practicing procedures with FS2004).
- Hire a large transport aircraft sim with other wannabees to prepare for sim checks
- Get around all the gliding clubs for summer towing jobs to build the hours
- Get an FIC
- Do whatever it takes to get into the airline industry (dispatch, ops, crewing,
cleaner, whatever!) to show that you're keen and get connected. Many
wannabees will get jobs through inside industry info, most of which will never
appear on the web.

I personally do not know of any 200 hr FATPL who has got a job through sending off CV's though i'm sure there are many! All the wannabees I know who got jobs did so through contacts and earning a wage in other areas of the industry.

[Fancy Navigator]

To go back to the original thread and to Danny M, a fATPL is not much in itself and you will find it very very difficult to secure a job (even turbo prop) with mimimum hours, etc.... However, you can keep building your experience, etc and keep hoping!
One thing I would add though is that if you have to borrow huge amounts of money to do the training, I would think twice about actually doing it because you will find yourself with a big debt and no money coming in to re-pay it.

FNav ;)

[DANNY M]

To go back to the original thread and to Danny M, a fATPL is not much in itself and you will find it very very difficult to secure a job (even turbo prop) with mimimum hours, etc.... However, you can keep building your experience, etc and keep hoping!
One thing I would add though is that if you have to borrow huge amounts of money to do the training, I would think twice about actually doing it because you will find yourself with a big debt and no money coming in to re-pay it.

FNav ;)


Thank you - advice noted and appreciated! :ok:

[fly-dj]

a JAA fATPL is probably the most useless thing in the known universe. :(
you need hours on type (preferably jet but sometimes turbine will do) to be considered anywhere.
Not to disagree but that’s rubbish.
I finished training with a CPL/IR (me) MCC & just over 150 hours, more commonly known as the fATPL.
This was enough to get me several interviews, which led to 2 job offers from airlines neither of which required an SSTR.
However a word of caution! Not everyone who starts training is going to end up in the RHS of an airliner, there just are not that many positions available & competition is fierce. But there are jobs out there, and there are still a number of airlines in the UK that take low-hour cadets & don’t require a type rating. You just need a bit of luck a lot of hard work & keep to your ear to the ground.

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
Whatever about trying to get a para/instructing job, the first thing to do is stay current.I suggest anyone within reach of a PFA Strut joins it, right away.Their aircraft are all Group A and most pilots will give you a flight in exchange for work, clean the aircraft, help out at Permit renewal time,etc.Many of those involved are ex-airline/military personnel and would have lots of contacts, so a little bit of networking and some sweat will get you some flying.The owners might even allow you the use of the aircraft, for the cost of putting you on their insurance.
regards
TDD

[D'vay]

Danny M,
The important bit has been looked over by us all here. Get the hell out there and do your PPL. That is the most poetic of all licences. Go out there and actually learn to fly. You'll realise how amazing you are. After that, I don't doubt that you will love it!
By doing a PPL you will understand all of these arguements so much more due to your daily contact with people like us (who are merely people like you but with various licences between us). I would thoroughly recomend that you study full time for the ppl and do so in america (if you want my opinion of the best school out there, pm me). Don't reply with the "ooh, can i afford to study ppl full time?" "how will I ever get the time off of work?" as these are very easy to do as you want to learn to fly, other things just find a way of working!
Keep the faith, work hard and just get out there and on the ladder!
D'Vay

[SIDSTAR]

To all you guys/gals looking to get on to the ladder. It's still a great job if you like flying. If you dont, don't even go there as you'll probably hate it. However, while the likes of the LCCs have ruined the job with everyone paying for their TRs now, there are still some decent ones around. Some of us oldies who got our licences in the late 70s and early 80s waited years for any airline job. There was nothing out there after two oil crises except a handful of Aztec jobs all offering 2K a year provided you had 5000 hrs!

The point I'm making is don't get too disheartened and stick at it. You'll never make a fortune in this job but some of us still don't regard it as a job cos we love what we do. If you keep trying you'll make it. As one poster said get any job, load bags, do check-in - whatever. It's always a little bit easier when you are 'on the inside' so to speak. Fly whatever you can and get the hours up - on anything you can lay your hands on. If you get an interview - do as advised, spend a few quid on a couple of hours in a jet sim with a friendly instructor who'll at least show you the basics of jet flying. After all that - the very best of luck! It took me eight years to get my first job but it was worth it in the end.

[sicky]

To go back to the original thread and to Danny M, a fATPL is not much in itself and you will find it very very difficult to secure a job (even turbo prop) with mimimum hours, etc.... However, you can keep building your experience, etc and keep hoping!
One thing I would add though is that if you have to borrow huge amounts of money to do the training, I would think twice about actually doing it because you will find yourself with a big debt and no money coming in to re-pay it.

FNav ;)

i hate reading that because i know it's true, it's one of those things u just want ti ignore but know you can't! lol