Plane Shares, where can I find one?

[hedges81]

HI all,

Basically I have heard a bit about the idea of plane sharing, namely buying a part ownership share in a plane, thereby saving on the cost of plane hire when you want to use it.
Does anybody know where I can find information regarding shares for sale?
Are there for example companies that specialise in selling them?
Have trawled the internet but can't really find a great deal of information.

[dwshimoda]

30 seconds on Google gives loads of results, including this one at the top:

http://ukga.com/classified/viewcategory.cfm?classifiedCategoryId=2

It's also worth going to the cafe / clubhouse at the airfield you'd like to be based at, and looking at their notice board.

Finally, Flyer, Pilot, and Today's Pilot all have sections at the back of the magazine, and probably on their websites, where many shares are offered.

DW

[hedges81]

what did you put in as the search term?

[PPRuNe Towers]

Having been involved with group aircraft for 28 years shared ownership is firmly supported here.

PFA permit types and privately owned (non public transport) group shares are welcome to be posted here by those involved with a group, as are PPRuNers offering hints, tips and experiences.

Just the search for a share often opens up an entirely new world of aviation in the UK for those who have come through the standard club/school world. Enthusiasm and interest seems to be retained far longer through this route than any other. We are also very keen on the gliding days for the same reason - an aviation community generally far removed from commercial club life.

Positively encouraged and supported here at the Towers.

[Sans Anoraque]

Hedges - if you look at the group flying section of www.thehangar.co.uk that will give you a good idea of the types of shares available and the costs involved.

[dwshimoda]

what did you put in as the search term?

"aircraft shares" and made sure it was google.co.uk with UK selected.

PFA permit types and privately owned (non public transport) group shares are welcome to be posted here by those involved with a group, as are PPRuNers offering hints, tips and experiences.

I have a share in a Cessna 172 based at Cranfield. It's £60 a month and £65 an hour wet, including landing fees. I think it's at the upper end of the scale cost wise, but it's a very well kept, low-houred aircraft with full airways capability, plus Cranfield's landing fee's aren't the cheapest!

Pro's:


You can book it as far as you like ahead
It's a cheap-ish way of hour building - and I can do the first 25 hours of my IR in her
If the weather deteriorates and you're a long way from home, there's less pressure on you to return than you may experience if you have a club aircraft
You can take it away for longer periods, without having to fly a minimum number of hours a day
It's nice to "own your own plane" and develop an attachment
The costs are shared, so big bills go 10 ways, and if you have a well managed group, with a good engine fund, it's rare that you ever need to cough up more
You should more or less get your money back when you sell your share
Chicks dig it! (sorry - couldn't resist - feel free to alter as suits your sex - I'd be very impressed by a lady with her own plane! :)


Cons:


If you're not flying regularly, the monthly outlay can get expensive
It may take some time to sell your share when you want to exit the group
If anything goes wrong with it, you can be without your only wings for long periods of time
You usually have to stump up a fairly large capital sum at the outset

Overall I'd highly recommend it, and I hope, really hope, I can hang onto my share when I've finished all my training, and maybe got a job!

Hope this helps

DW.

[hedges81]

Ah, I was searching for "plane shares", could explain it.

Sounds good to me, Im currently doing my ATPL ground school and need to find a cheap way of hour building towards the CPL. Any plane I bought into would certainly get used regularly. Also, I could do my CPL training in it right? Thus saving even more cash. ,,or would something like a C152 or a warrior be too basic for the CPL stuff, dont CPL planes need to have retractable undercarriage for example?

[EGBKFLYER]

You need a public cat C of A for training and the aircraft would also need certifying if you were going to use it for a CPL test. You also need some complex time, so that might also preclude the idea. IMO, I reckon using your own a/c for a CPL is probably not economical.

If you're hours building - why not buy a PFA type outright? March PF magazine has a Jodel for £6500. Nice little aircraft and you could probably sell it for the same money if you didn't want it after the hours are built. You can have it all to yourself too for that price!

[Genghis the Engineer]

A "plane" is a device for forming wood. "Aeroplane" or "Aircraft" should serve you better.

Best thing to do is take half a day, visit your local airfields, and look at all of the noticeboards.

And yes, it's the way ahead. Today I did 2:15 in my 1/10th of a very nice 4-seat aeroplane, this cost me £76. (Add in the £60/month I also pay in fixed costs, and I'm still winning by any standard that you care to apply). The fact that I could take it all day, with nobody worrying what I did with it so long as I didn't bend it (and if I'd wanted to take it for a week, the same would apply) and I'm winning even more.

You may however find that a lot of syndicates aren't all that keen on having hourbuilders on-board. In which case, get together with a couple of other hourbuilders and set up your own on a cheap PFA aeroplane- putting it on a convenient and cheap farmstrip. You'll still be well ahead of the game.

If you want suggestions about specific aeroplanes and airstrips, just give us all a few hints.

G

[dwshimoda]

As EGBK says, for CPL a some of the time needs to be in a complex - ie retractable undercarriage, and variable prop. That doesn't preclude share ownership though - two of the guys on my groundschool course have bought into a Rockwell Commander 112 - which not only lets them do all their CPL, but a good chunk of their IR. Your clearly doing ATPL modular, so at least 5 hours of your training needs to be in a complex type. In reality, you want a bit more so you are totally comfortable with the aircraft before your skills test.

If you do your calculations right, it can reduce the cost of your ATPL training, although not by much. It does give lots of other benfits, as previosuly mentioned, though for when you just want to have fun! In fact, in the depths of ATPL theory I have found it essential to just jump in and go sometimes!

Ghengis is correct in saying some syndicates don't want hour builders, but conversely, some do - if the aircraft isn't flying it's costing a ot of money in star annuals etc, so there is a healthy balance to be struck. Plus, hopefully if you are serious about your career, your flying should be excellent, and therefore minimise any risk to the aircraft.

Again, as Ghengis said, I can take my wife, plus my best mate and his wife to L2K or Oostende (but go to Brugges) for less than £260 return - that's Easy / Ryanair territory - but far cooler! (unless one of needs the loo half way across - in which case you really do need to be good friends - and flexible!!!)

[Julian]

Hedges,

Where are you based?

We have 1 share left for sale in our PA28-RT-201 based in Sheffield.
PM me for details.

Julian.

[alexflynn86]

I haven't completed my PPL yet (hopefully soon, however!) and was also looking into a bit of the shares that go on out there... One thing I can't seem to find anything on is the likes of insurance. I checked out thehanger website, and also googled it a few times, but no clear-cut advice. Any ideas?
Regards,
Alex

[HiFranc]

Ah, I was searching for "plane shares", could explain it.

One thing about using search engines that I've learnt is to always be prepared to rephrase your search key. If I'm investigating something I would change the search terms 5+ times.

[Julian]

Alex,

When you join a group as well as the hourly rate you pay for the aircraft (wet or dry) you will also have to pay a monthly standing order. The monthly standing order will vary in amount depending on the aircraft and location/type of storage but insurance is generally covered in this.

When you find a group ask them what the standing charge is and what it covers, havent heard of any groups myself though where you are expected to sort out your own insurance.

Julian.

[EGCC4284]

http://www.aircraftgrouping.com/

These aircraft are being based at Barton, Manchester

[dmjw01]

One thing about using search engines that I've learnt is to always be prepared to rephrase your search key. If I'm investigating something I would change the search terms 5+ times.
At the risk of going off-topic, it's surprising how few people really know how to get the best out of Google.

Searching for "plane shares" (without the double-quotes) will return pages containing the word "plane" and the word "shares" (but not necessarily both words together). If you include the double quotes, it will only return pages with the two words together.

Also, few people know that you can use the keyword "OR", which does exactly what you would expect. So the best search phrase would have been "plane OR aeroplane OR aircraft shares" (without the double quotes in this case).

[foxmoth]

putting it on a convenient and cheap farmstrip.

Easier said than done sometimes - we have been looking on the Hampshire/ Sussex border for some time now and not found a suitable strip.:{
n.b. Shares going in our 2 Seater Falconar (similar to a Jodel):ok:

[distaff_beancounter]

hedges81
I am a fan of Google, but as others have said above, you can't beat the personal contact method of finding aircraft groups, especially if you want to find an aircraft based at an airfield reasonably near where you live.
I moved to Dorset from Hertfordshire last year, so I had to start from scratch looking for something to fly and other pilots to fly with.
I joined the local PFA Strut. I also visited all the local G A airfields, read the notice boards, talked to the airfield staff and had a coffee and a chat with any pilots who were about.
Within less than two weeks of starting my search, I had joined a local flying club, joined an aircraft group and made lots of friends. I am now doing far more flying than I was before I moved here.
So, it worked for me :)

[Pilotdom]

what you have to put into perspective is the capital share you have to pay to buy into a group and the monthly fees aswell.

If you are planning on doing a cpl,just think about this.

Capital outlay for your share will probably be £6000. Thats probably about 55 hours time in a club aircraft,including fuel and no maintenance for you to worry about.

It may be better to spend the capital on the CPL and then spend money hour building when you need to.

If youve got the cash though get on and do it!

[IO540]

I think the short answer is that shares, or indeed whole planes, are not (in the UK) advertised in any one place.

And by the time something has been out for long enough to get picked up by google, there is probably a reason why it has not sold.

A lot of shares change hands informally, without advertising.

If I was looking for one (as I was a few years ago) then I would contact the administrator of each local syndicate (operating something interesting) to see if any shares are up for sale.

[Genghis the Engineer]

what you have to put into perspective is the capital share you have to pay to buy into a group and the monthly fees aswell.

If you are planning on doing a cpl,just think about this.

Capital outlay for your share will probably be £6000. Thats probably about 55 hours time in a club aircraft,including fuel and no maintenance for you to worry about.

It may be better to spend the capital on the CPL and then spend money hour building when you need to.

If youve got the cash though get on and do it!

The difference being of-course, that you can later sell your share and get your capital back.

I've owned several shares (and still do), they've all appreciated between buying and selling. Whilst I've known people spend months of frustration trying to sell their shares, I've also personally never found it took all that long so long as you put a bit of effort into advertising and showing people around it.

I've also never paid more than £3k for a share.

G

[Flybywyre]

Capital outlay for your share will probably be £6000
Should be able to get two or three aircraft shares for that, unless you are looking for something a bit newer and more upmarket.
A share in your average spamcan (PA28 C152) will cost you somewhere between £1600 - £2400). Several low houred (engine) PA28's on our airfiled going for around £1800. Monthly is £60 and hourly (wet) is also £60.
Popham is a good source of very reasonably priced shares in group owned aircraft.
Regards
FBW

[Dan Dare]

Buy a share in a VW single seater. If you live in the South East then some of the costs will be out of proportion, but the figures do add up if you are flying lots. I'll illustrate with "worst case" figures based at an expensive airfield, but if you found a group based in a small field somewhere things get MUCH cheeper.

Initial outlay for share £1000
Monthly costs £50
Direct Hourly costs £13
Annual Flying Club membership £250

If you own a share for 2 years, flying just 6 hours a month and sell your share for the sum you purchased it you will have done about 140 hours for £3.5k or £25 per hour! You will not beat that without being sponsored! If you REALLY flew the pants off your new toy you could bring your flying costs down to £20per hour.
Forget the costs for the moment, you are flying for fun (aren't you?) and open cockpit, single seaters can also be excellent fun and great experience builders too. I should know, I've flown many if them over the last 10 years.

There is also a share available in the group I fly in if anyone wants to PM me

[Kolibear]

Hedges81 - where in the UK are you based?

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Just toying with this idea at the moment. I would use any aircraft to fly recreationally, probably cross border European flying for three/four nights at a time.
My interest would be in an IFR and de - ice twin, hangared somewhere around the east of England.
I am aware of some of the drawbacks involved in this sort of a plan/plane but would be most grateful for any additional feeback that might come my way.
Regards.
cc

[tmmorris]

Mods!

Tim

[BlueRobin]

Yes "mods" it's an advert but let me have a reply.

Your scheme despite the monthlies is still expensive Mike. 1. Wellesbourne Aviation's frequent flyer scheme at 50pcm beats your scheme on the Warrior 3 by 20ph. I have access for £100 per year a C172 Reims Rocket at Coventry for 84ph *tacho*. Not for profit club :) You do have a decent instructor/examiner now though ;) Get him some PPL students!

Smart people don't buy aircraft!!

There is some truth in this. Not only do you have to fly the aeroplane, you have to be a legit operator within the regulatory framework, an accountant and savvy at managing the maintenance. This is ownership. In a group, such tasks can be delegated. You have to make sure the delegation works or the group fails to run.

There is an argument that a well-run club with sufficient weekend and evening availability is better than a poorly-run group or a well run one with a bad aeroplane.

Also group shares do not fall on your lap. Arguably with the right sort of aeroplane and flying objectives, it is easier and quicker to start a group yourself. You could end up with a nice aeroplane and good people because you went out and got what you wanted.

[SkyHawk-N]

Smart people don't buy aircraft!!

There is some truth in this. Not only do you have to fly the aeroplane, you have to be a legit operator within the regulatory framework, an accountant and savvy at managing the maintenance. This is ownership.

Funny enough I enjoy the ownership of an aircraft as well as flying it. It is not stupid to buy an aircraft if you are aware of the expense and responsibilities that go along with it. I like the freedom to spend what I like on the aircraft, fly where I like and for as long as I like and be free of all the hassles which co-ownership brings (like personalities!). It costs more, a lot more but I wouldn't have it any other way.

[IO540]

Smart people don't buy aircraft

The rate is £99 per hour for a Warrior III and £89 for a C172 wet

Well perhaps not those types :O :O

A new Warrior is about £150,000+VAT and a new C172 is also about £150,000+VAT. Depending on equipment of course. Nobody is going to pay that - unless they need that type for a particular purpose.

And knackered old ones you can rent from any flying school.

What you get with ownership is potentially something decent, maintained to your own standards, capable of real distance trips abroad, something capable of real IFR, something you can take away for a few weeks. One can potentially rent that but it's very rare and few-weeks takeaways are usually impossible anyway (without paying a massive price).

You pays your money and you takes your choice. Ownership is usually a massive hassle, a huge learning curve (in a business where there are more shysters than double glazing and loft insulation combined) but if you can do it, it's worth every penny for the freedom and the options.

[WorkingHard]

OK so if I buy say a good C182 full IFR and want to share it with other folks who is going to buy my shares for sale? Are there many really interested in group ownership? If so (Lincolnshire BTW) I may be persuaded to by one.

[Flybywyre]

Linconshire :mad:
Nah......Keep your money in your pocket and take up poaching or eel fishing (or both) instead :ok:
Hope this was of help to you,
Regards,
FBW

[WorkingHard]

FBW - thanks, best laugh i have had all day. Keep 'em coming.

[theresalwaysone]

QUOTE----Smart people don't buy aircraft

Correct, if it FLYS, FLOATS OR FXXXS -RENT IT!

[topcat450]

Just bringing this to the top to say, if anyone knows of any shares going in IFR equipped a/c at Cranfield, Turweston or Coventry can you stick it in here or PM me please.

I know of a couple of Rockwell Commanders at Cranfield - but that's all I've found so far. :confused:

[ormus55]

hedges: where do you live?

last time i looked there were shares available at barton and popham.
im sure most clubs will have notices on the boards.

failing that, why not advertise your wanted advert.
ie share wanted, type of aircraft and prefered location.

[MarcJF]

I'm also thinking of buying a 1/10 share of a C150, the cost is £2k, £25p.m. and £59 wet per hour including base landing fees. Does anyone know the whereabouts of a list containing the major questions to ask before buying in? Any help appreciated.

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Must live in a poor part of the country.
I never see much available, ..well nothing actually, in Nth Lincs area.
Its something I am considering once the elusive PPL is mine. (not long now hopefully)

[tiggermoth]

I've read this thread from the top, and it's good reading. :)

I'll have my PPL in a couple of months, so naturally I'm looking to "fly something" at the end of it.

Forgive me for a daft question, but what fraction ownership adds up to days of availability? Clearly, if I had, say, 1/10th ownership I'd expect around 1/10th of the time to fly.

But would it be:
36 days or 5.2 weeks or 876 hours? How is it divided up?

If (say) I wanted to take it away over a bank holiday, would I have any hope at all of doing so? Does it need to be booked months in advance?

Does anybody generally have 'first grabs' on the time they fly?

Is there an minimum fractional ownership that should be avoided?

Sorry for all the questions - and I have expect the answer to be that it depends on the group - but some idea of what happens would be most welcome.

TiggerMoth

[Genghis the Engineer]

tiggermoth, that depends entirely upon the rules and booking system of the syndicate that you join.

Most syndicates however operate some form of booking system that allows you so-many days in the diary at a time, including so-many weekend days. That usually ensures that most people get their aeroplane, most of the times they wanted it.

Best advice I can offer is before buying a share, have a think about the useage you'd like, then look at the booking diary for the next few weeks/months, and the tech log for the last few months to see what sort of overall use it's getting.

But in general, I suspect that you'll be pleasantly surprised.

G

[pistongone]

Topcat 450
Try asking Pete Maynard for a go in his PA32 G-BKEK based at Turweston, immaculate aircraft and £105/hr Dry. Auto pilot colour map etc etc. Does 130Kn and takes six with a decent slug of gas. Quite easy going on hours per day too, but who wants to fly just one hour in a day? Flying is like an expanding spiral, the more you fly the further you need to go to see something new!.

[tiggermoth]

Is there a minimum fraction share that is worth having?

[MarcJF]

I think the minimum the CAA will allow is 5%, certainly that's how their ownership forms are structured.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Is there a minimum fraction share that is worth having?

Opinions vary, but the only sensible answer is - look at the useage of the aeroplane.

The smaller the share the cheaper the costs are, but the bigger the share the better the availability. Look at the diary and logbook - find out how something is being used, and whether it'll suit you. The perfect share is the 20-way syndicate, with everybody chipping in for fixed running costs, cleaning, etc. but most people doing very little flying. These perfect shares are more common than you might think.

G

[Rod1]

A lot depends on the type of aircraft. An aerobatic type which is flown locally for 45 min at a time is very different from a de iced twin which spends its time in the far corners of Europe. 20 people in the aerobatic type is ok from an availability point of view but would be too many for the twin.

Rod1

[ormus55]

most of the adverts i see for shares are around the 4, 5 and 6 mark.
rarely have i seen a 20 share. although they do exist.
a 20th share in a c150 for example, will obviously bring the fixed costs down to a figure almost anyone can afford.

if you do the maths re typical ppl flying hours, its plain to see that availability is not usually a problem. in my experience, most light aircraft seem to be parked up for days and even weeks at a time.