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stuartforrest
20th Mar 2006, 10:01
Please dont reply to this telling me I am not qualified etc etc because the "IMC is a get me home rating blah blah blah". I am interested in specific help. I intend to use my IMC until there is a viable IFR rating for the private pilot and I intend to do regular practice which I believe makes me safer than an IFR qualified pilot who hardly ever flies.

For background I have recently passed my IMC rating (10 IMC hours ago) and Night Rating to add to my long held VFR licence. I fly a Bonanza A36 that is very well equipped and I know how to work the equipment!

I was returning from Scotland yesterday and after a bumpy ride up there VFR which made one of the kids sick I decided to go VFR on-top for the return journey. I climbed VFR through a hole and levelled off at Flight level 80 which was the correct quadrantal and was talking to Scottish Info and had a radar service.

During the conversation he asked "are you VFR or IFR" so I replied IFR and that was that. I got an excellent service that kept me clear of Prestwick and did an approach into Blackpool. The flight was super smooth and in sunshine.

This has happened to me twice recently when lfying IMC.

My question is what should my answer have been. Should I have said

I am IFR
I am VFR on-top
I am VFR India Mike Charlie

or something else. Several people have told me several different things but I am still unsure. Like everything in flying there are so many things to learn that I may have missed this during my training so I would appreciate your pprune posters sharing your wisdom with me.

IO540
20th Mar 2006, 10:29
In the UK, with an IMCR you can fly VFR above a solid layer, so if you are in VMC you have the choice of VFR or IFR.

It's normally better to reply "IFR" because you are more likely to get a radar service, and a handover to the next radar unit.

Then, if you do enter IMC, you remain legal. Makes life simple.

The only strong reason for flying "VFR" (that I can think of) is if above 2000kg, to avoid IFR charges. I know of people who fly big twin turboprops, up to FL195 in France/Spain like that. It's a bit of a mick-take but if it's Class D...

The other thing is that if you want to arrive IFR i.e. on an IAP. One is going to get a "better reception" if one was IFR on the way there... if for example you go to Cranfield, VFR, and tell them you'd like an ILS they will tell you rather bluntly they are busy with instrument training and if you really really still want the ILS you can have it but they will charge you for it (meaning: "go away, come back VFR and report when you have found Woburn Abbey"). Whereas if you flew there IFR they can't do that.

No doubt 10 people will now jump in, saying how much they wish the UK had the same airspace structure as France/USA/etc (Class E nearly everywhere) all flight in IMC should need an IFR clearance, and all real pilots should have a JAA IR :O

stuartforrest
20th Mar 2006, 10:58
Thanks for that. I feel much clearer. I did suspect I would get all those replies as you can tell from my first paragraph.

I am glad I am not doing anything too wrong. Thats always a good start.

I certainly did get an excellent service but I was worried that if I said IFR I needed to have filed a flight plan etc.

IO540
20th Mar 2006, 11:04
No need to file an ICAO flight plan for IFR within the UK. And for controlled airspace departure/transit/arrival, the radio call does the job.

Fuji Abound
20th Mar 2006, 11:08
IO540

I am not sure that is correct.

Rules 24 and 27 specify the minimum visibility and separation from cloud in terms of horizontal and vertical distance required to permit VFR operations.

I thought the rules also specify at or below 3,000 feet in sight of the surface.

If that is so you might well be in VMC above a layer but depending on your separation or altitude never the less required to declare IFR.

800 feet above the base and you are IFR.

Flap40
20th Mar 2006, 11:44
My question is what should my answer have been. Should I have said
I am IFR
I am VFR on-top
I am VFR India Mike Charlie

The ANO states:- ‘Instrument Meteorological Conditions' means weather precluding flight in compliance with the Visual Flight Rules; so your third option is impossible.

As IO540 has said, an IMC rating removes the requirement to be in sight of the surface so my answer would be "IFR" or "VFR". there is no need to mention the on top bit.

Flight plans are covered in the AIP Enr 1.10.
Basically they are not required for IFR outside controlled airspace.
They are required for IMC or night inside controlled airspace unless SVFR.
They are required for IFR in controlled airspace even when VMC.

It also says that:
1.2.2 Flight plans fall into three categories:
(a) Full flight plans: the information filed on Form CA48/RAF 2919;
(b) Repetitive Flight Plans (see paragraph 5);
(c) Abbreviated Flight Plans: the limited information required to obtain a clearance for a portion of flight (eg: flying in a Control
Zone, crossing an Airway) filed either by telephone prior to take-off or by RTF when airborne. The destination aerodrome
will be advised of the flight only if the flight plan information covers the whole route of the flight.

So an IFR flight from (for example) Carlisle to Newcastle should only need a phone call or rt call for the entry to Newcastle's class D rather than a full CA48

stuartforrest
20th Mar 2006, 11:55
So Flap40 then you concur that I should be saying that I am IFR unless I am to remain entirely clear of controlled airspace.

Chilli Monster
20th Mar 2006, 12:10
Stuart

Nothing wrong with what you did, and everything IO540 said so far is fine. However, as an IMC "Newbie" a word of warning.

Some areas of the Scottish TMA are class 'E'. No need for a clearance VFR (whether you're above or below cloud providing you fulfill VFR criteria). If you are, or declare yourself IFR however a clearance is required.

Be aware of the Airspace you're flying in and what you can and can't do on the back of an IMC.

Fuji

Don't see your point. Providing you fulfill VFR separation from cloud you can be VFR "on top". If you're above 3000ft certain parts of those criteria are increased, but still applicable.

Where does the "800ft above the base" come in?

aluminium persuader
20th Mar 2006, 12:58
Don't forget -

Outside controlled airspace, the type of service you receive will be the type of service you ask for, unless the controller is for some reason unable to provide it.

Flight Information Service (FIS)
Radar Information Service (RIS)
Radar Advisory Service (RAS)

FIS & RIS you can have whether IFR or VFR. With RIS you will get tfc info but no avoiding action, therefore you want to be in flight conditions where you will be able to see the traffic and avoid it, eg VMC on top.

With RAS, which you can receive ONLY if IFR (regardless of whether IMC or VMC) you will be given avoiding action aiming to establish separation of at least 5 miles.

ap :)

Lister Noble
20th Mar 2006, 13:20
I am a student and am now confused!
I understood that a VFR pilot can ask for RAS as long as he flies in VMC and does not accept instructions to fly into IMC conditions.
The radar controller should be advised immediately of any instructions that are not acceptable to the VFR pilot.
This is from the latest (2004) Thom Aviation Law text book.
Is this incorrect,or am I misreading the above posts?
Lister:)

Send Clowns
20th Mar 2006, 13:22
You had the choice, but IMHO made the best one. In my recent experience if you are actually trying to travel long distance within the UK, or travelling abroad, IFR is simpler. This doesn't always work in Europe, France is a good example, as they are reluctant to clear you IFR outside controlled airspace and the routes can therefore be tortuous unless you insist. In the UK it is treated as quite normal, even for me on a callsign of an AOC operator. A friend of mine was doing so and was told to squawk 7000 and call en-route frequency. Not so surprising, except was flying a 737-800 and had 179 passengers!

Chilli Monster
20th Mar 2006, 13:47
I am a student and am now confused!
I understood that a VFR pilot can ask for RAS as long as he flies in VMC and does not accept instructions to fly into IMC conditions.
The radar controller should be advised immediately of any instructions that are not acceptable to the VFR pilot.

A pointless exercise which is only going to make you look really stupid when I downgrade the service. That's why it's for IFR only.

Keef
20th Mar 2006, 13:58
I don't think you can be given an RAS if you are VFR (that may be "No controller will give you one"). He will expect to vector you around the sky to avoid other traffic, and that's not the time to say "sorry, I can't go into cloud".

I've flown under RAS, and it's hard work. You'll cover a lot of sky. RIS is a lot better unless the airspace is busy, in which case...

Fuji Abound
20th Mar 2006, 14:33
"Don't see your point. Providing you fulfill VFR separation from cloud you can be VFR "on top". If you're above 3000ft certain parts of those criteria are increased, but still applicable.

Where does the "800ft above the base" come in?"

My point was that if you are 800 feet above solid cloud but in VMC can you fulfill the VFR criteria. If you cannot you presumably can only be IFR.

In the same way if you are at our below 3,000 feet above cloud in VMC you are not in sight of the surface. Can you fulfill the VRF criteria?

IO540
20th Mar 2006, 16:10
Yes, the "sight of surface" requirement (of a UK issued PPL) for VFR disappears if you have an IMCR or an IR. It also doesn't exist for most foreign PPLs, and doesn't exist in most foreign airspace.

I think (and I am going to get jumped on for saying this) one needs to be more practical about this stuff.

For example, no use asking for an RAS (available only to IFR traffic in Class G, IIRC) when you are in VMC. I know a plain PPL can fly IFR in VMC in Class G in the UK but they are going to vector you all over the sky. You get ludicrous doglegs, mostly around unknown non-transponding traffic, often microlights pottering about at 600ft and perhaps 4000ft below you, but the radar can't tell so they have to give you avoiding vectors. I've had it done to me once or twice, years ago, and it's a really pointless exercise. The traffic reports one gets from an RIS are just as useful in practice, especially if after a report like "contact at 12 o'clock, 1 mile, recip heading, same level", and you are sitting in IMC, you say "Gxxxx, turning right 20 degrees" and do it right away :O

The next thing is cloud separation if above clouds or if above a certain level (which I cannot ever remember). The rules do not apply when climbing or descending (obviously) so when do they apply? How long do you have to be flying straight and level before they begin to apply? It's slightly pointless to worry about it. If you are flying IFR, VMC on top, under say ATS direction (say in Class D) and they give you vectors, you aren't going to suddenly say "sorry, can't comply because I am only 100ft above the clouds".

Whereas something like a plain PPL flying straight into Class A at FL120 on an airways flight plan is something altogether different, quite absolute, a 4-digit fine and a licence pulled. As a result, it's never been done :O

Lister Noble
20th Mar 2006, 16:13
Thank you Keef.
Another question then.
When flying VFR I had difficulty locating a commercial airfield, I was given a Squawk code charlie,a radar bearing and distance to the airfield, which was brilliant ,it took me straight there safely and with no hassle.
I believe this is RIS, so I don't really need RAS for my limited requirements anyway?
Lister:cool:

bookworm
20th Mar 2006, 16:17
A pointless exercise which is only going to make you look really stupid when I downgrade the service.

Not sure I agree with that. I've always felt that it was a pity that RAS is restricted to IFR.

Vectors may be refused for a variety of reasons by pilots of all qualifications. No one is going to fly through a CB, no one is going to fly into icy cloud without an out, no one is going to fly towards a gaggle of gliders that the controller doesn't see on radar, etc. Refusal of a vector that would take a non-instrument-qualified pilot into cloud is just another on the list. In most circumstances, VFR flights are conducted in a way that would allow any vectors to be accepted without flight in cloud -- the issue of terrain clearance is more likely to be problematic.

bookworm
20th Mar 2006, 16:25
The traffic reports one gets from an RIS are just as useful in practice, especially if after a report like "contact at 12 o'clock, 1 mile, recip heading, same level", and you are sitting in IMC, you say "Gxxxx, turning right 20 degrees" and do it right away :O

The resolution and completeness of the traffic information offered is not sufficient to make any such avoiding action reliable. I reckon there's as good a chance that you'll simply turn into a collision that you would otherwise have avoided as that the manoeuvre avoids a collision.

I've said it before here, the most valuable piece of traffic information a controller can give is one that is not currently passed under a RIS: which way do I turn to increase separation?

Chilli Monster
20th Mar 2006, 17:16
Not sure I agree with that. I've always felt that it was a pity that RAS is restricted to IFR.

If you'd like to get an ATC licence with an APS rating, then try and give a RAS to everyone with the separation that you have to try and achieve under a RAS, during a typical summers weekend, I suggest that opinion would last all of a Microsecond. It's not physically possible.

If you are VFR then it's your responsibility to avoid other aircraft, not mine to tell you how to conduct your flight. Harsh, but true. Learn that fact and move on ;)

I've said it before here, the most valuable piece of traffic information a controller can give is one that is not currently passed under a RIS: which way do I turn to increase separation?

If you can't work that out from the information you're being given then the service being given doesn't have enough data. I've never had a problem deciding - it's called having the mental picture.

You'll be wanting the aircraft flown for you next!

Fuji Abound
20th Mar 2006, 18:32
I know it is pedantic but:

I agree with an IR or IMCR the in sight of surface rule etc disappears but you have to be under on of two flight rules.

If you are not in sight of the surface at or below 3,000 feet you cannot be VFR (because I thought the rules say so). Obviously you are legal because you have an IMCR or IR and you are also in VMC becasue the base is beneath you but surely you must be IFR even though you are in VMC?

In the same way if you are only 800 feet above an undercast whilst VMC and legal because you have an IR or IMCR again at any level surely you must be IFR because you are not withiin the vertical seperation for VFR.

In other words to answer the original question the only correct answer is you are IFR unless you also meet the VFR criteria - at or above 3,000 feet and meet the vertical and horizontal seperation requirements :confused:

I agree you might well want to tell the controller you are IFR but VMC.

bpilatus
20th Mar 2006, 18:33
I climbed VFR through a hole and levelled off at Flight level 80 which was the correct quadrantal and was talking to Scottish Info and had a radar service.
My question is what should my answer have been. Should I have said
I am IFR
I am VFR on-top
I am VFR India Mike Charlie

At F080 using the correct quad you are IFR. If you want to be helpful and the controller's not too busy you could say that you are IFR and 'clear on top'. A radar service (with you operating mode C) suggests that ATC know you are IFR. If Scottish Info asked the question it may have been a gentle reminder to check that your magnetic track and altitude were correct. Do Scottish Info operate a radar service?

Chilli Monster
20th Mar 2006, 19:20
If you are not in sight of the surface at or below 3,000 feet you cannot be VFR (because I thought the rules say so).

Go back and RTFQ. I think FL80 counts as being above 3000ft

In the same way if you are only 800 feet above an undercast whilst VMC and legal because you have an IR or IMCR again at any level surely you must be IFR because you are not withiin the vertical seperation for VFR.

Who the F**k mentioned 800ft? (apart from yourself)

In other words to answer the original question the only correct answer is you are IFR unless you also meet the VFR criteria - at or above 3,000 feet and meet the vertical and horizontal seperation requirements :confused:

I think that's already been established

I agree you might well want to tell the controller you are IFR but VMC.

For yours, and bpilatus benefit - why? There was nothing to stop Stuart being VFR in his scenario (He remains responsible for separation from other aircraft) or IFR (himself and ATC have joint responsibility).

The choice of Flight Rules is, subject to the criteria for VMC being met, his. He could have been under either - it's down to personal preference and airspace. It's not that difficult a concept surely.

(Receiving a radar service does not dictate what flight rules you are under - it's the flight rules that dictate the type of radar service)

bookworm
20th Mar 2006, 19:28
If you'd like to get an ATC licence with an APS rating, then try and give a RAS to everyone with the separation that you have to try and achieve under a RAS, during a typical summers weekend, I suggest that opinion would last all of a Microsecond. It's not physically possible.
Then don't give RAS if your workload is that high, particularly not to the ones who have worked out that they can be IFR below 3000 ft clear of cloud and in sight of the service and behave just like VFR.
If you are VFR then it's your responsibility to avoid other aircraft, not mine to tell you how to conduct your flight. Harsh, but true. Learn that fact and move on ;)
If an aircraft is IFR outside controlled airspace, it's the pilot's responsibility to avoid other aircraft, not ATC's to tell him how to conduct his flight. Only in limited circumstances in controlled airspace does the responsibility pass to ATC. Since neither RIS nor RAS are provided within controlled airspace, I think it's fair to say that it's the pilot's responsibility to avoid other aircraft when under a RIS or a RAS, whether VFR or IFR. So why make a play of the difference?

(Personal pronouns switched to pilot/ATC in deference to your two hats!)

If you can't work that out from the information you're being given then the service being given doesn't have enough data. I've never had a problem deciding - it's called having the mental picture.
You'll be wanting the aircraft flown for you next!
You'll be telling me next that you haven't ever wondered which way to turn someone with a tube in front of you, let alone from ATC traffic info. ;)

Islander2
20th Mar 2006, 19:29
At F080 using the correct quad you are IFR. If you want to be helpful and the controller's not too busy you could say that you are IFR and 'clear on top'. A radar service (with you operating mode C) suggests that ATC know you are IFR. If Scottish Info asked the question it may have been a gentle reminder to check that your magnetic track and altitude were correct.

Eh ... uhm .... what? Stuartforrest, hopefully you've read the PPRUNE caveats!

From another A36 pilot:

At F080 using the correct quad you are IFR. Not true. You decide (having taken account of met. conditions) ... either VFR or IFR.

If you want to be helpful and the controller's not too busy you could say that you are IFR and 'clear on top'. No, this won't be helpful ... the controller won't be in the slightest bit interested whether or not you're clear on top.

A radar service (with you operating mode C) suggests that ATC know you are IFR. No it doesn't. Day in, day out, pilots operating under VFR receive a radar service whilst transponding Mode C.

If Scottish Info asked the question it may have been a gentle reminder to check that your magnetic track and altitude were correct. No it won't, most likely they simply wanted to know the relevant information to pass to the next agency.

Fuji Abound
20th Mar 2006, 19:36
Chilli

"In the UK, with an IMCR you can fly VFR above a solid layer, so if you are in VMC you have the choice of VFR or IFR."

This was the original reply to the question. You have to read the question and the answer - not just the question.

The question did not give any indication of far above the overcast he was.

You can therefore be VMC above an undercast but not legally entitled to declare VFR even at 9,000 feet (I thought I would mention 9,000 if that is OK with you :) )

To widen the debate it seemed worth mentioning that you can never be VFR if at or below 3,000 feet above a solid undercast - wich if I am correct presumably everyone already knew. :)

So, if I am correct their may have been everything to stop Stuart being VFR in HIS scenario.

Whether or not you want to tell the controller is up to you. I personally might tell the controller I was IFR or VFR on top - why because if he was also going to be "in charge" of my let down it might be useful for him to know I would become IFR - unless you have some other idea how you are going to let down from above an undercast.

Islander2
20th Mar 2006, 20:08
To widen the debate it seemed worth mentioning that you can never be VFR if at or below 3,000 feet above a solid undercast
Whoops ... air law refresher required.:D

Piltdown Man
20th Mar 2006, 20:34
You do as the people flying bigger stuff say, "IFR but in good visibility on top". IFR doesn't mean that you are in cloud or in poor visibility, just flying the correct level, have the appropriate navaids, you have the correct separation from the ground and are qualified, etc. You done good!

stuartforrest
20th Mar 2006, 20:43
Thanks for all the replies. This is a great thread as well. Gripping reading.

Just for a bit of extra info I was 2500 feet above the cloud and one of the scottish services passed me to another who most definately gave me RAS (he stated that the service was chaning to that) and then I got changed to yet another scottish frequency.

Normally when I go to Glasgow I speak to just one frequency. 119.87 I think but yesterday there were three different ones. Sorry I cant remember them all.

bpilatus
20th Mar 2006, 21:10
I am interested in specific help.

Stuart,

I hope you got the help you were looking for. Unfortunately it is all too common on here for personalities to get in the way of genuine help. I fear that has happened here, unfortunately. You sound as though you know what you are doing and you will be able to build on your experience over time.

Fuji Abound
20th Mar 2006, 21:21
"Flight outside controlled airspace
26.—(1) An aircraft flying outside controlled airspace at or above flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 8 km.

(2)

(a) Subject to sub-paragraph (b), an aircraft flying outside controlled airspace below flight level 100 shall remain at least 1500 metres horizontally and 1000 feet vertically away from cloud and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km.


(b) Sub-paragraph (a) shall be deemed to be complied with if:


(i) the aircraft is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and in a flight visibility of at least 5 km;


(ii) the aircraft, other than a helicopter, is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level at a speed which according to its air speed indicator is 140 knots or less and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface and in a flight visibility of at least 1500 metres; or


(iii) in the case of a helicopter the helicopter is flying at or below 3000 feet above mean sea level flying at a speed, which having regard to the visibility is reasonable, and remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface."


I am very happy to review air law but having looked at the text it stills leaves me in a quandary. VFR seems to be precluded if all conditions are not met?

stuartforrest
20th Mar 2006, 21:24
Yes thanks I have sussed Pprune out and that was why I put my first paragraph as I have got used to asking simple questions and being ridiculed in the past. That said I got my answer in the first reply from IO540 and subsequently from everyone else.

I am a little wiser tonight than I was last night about aviation and I thank the responders for that and I feel a happier that I am not making some gross mistake when I am doing my radio.

As often is the case with aviation (and many things in life) you learn the subject but you are not truly up to the job until you have practised and practised some more.

I remember my first cross country VFR flight to Cranfield from Blackpool. I am surprised I ever found my way back. Nowadays I probably could without a map and compass (not legally I know) as I have been that way so many times. All experience helps to make it easier.

Last week I took a flight to Edinburgh to do a VFR let-down (I think that is what it is called) and then break off for a VFR flight to Cumbernauld below the cloud base. Nobody showed me that on my IMC training but I just got the idea that you could do it and it all worked out fine. I would feel more confident in the future doing this.

I would be interested to hear what the radio request should have been to Edinburgh. I wanted to do their ILS down from FL40 and then break off at 1500ft to go off to Cumbernauld visually. What should I have requested. My own garbled message got the service I required but I am sure it wasnt the best radio call they got that day.

On that journey was also my first time I was asked "are you IFR or VFR" and yesterday was my second so thats why I popped the other question. The mystery is no more as the general replies seem to suggest my first choice as being best.

Thanks again for your help everyone.

I have a new question tomorrow about cloud tops. Lets see which cages I rattle :)

Islander2
20th Mar 2006, 21:39
That's not a correct interpretation of the law pertaining to VFR outside controlled airspace.

Rule 26 (2) (a) establishes the basic VMC for flight below FL100. Rule 26(2) (b) provides for a lessening of the 'distance from cloud' requirements if the aircraft is at or below 3,000 feet.

If you are at or below 3,000 feet, VFR is legally possible if you maintain EITHER the conditions set out in 26 (2) (a) OR 26 (2) (b).

bpilatus
20th Mar 2006, 21:50
Last week I took a flight to Edinburgh to do a VFR let-down (I think that is what it is called) and then break off for a VFR flight to Cumbernauld below the cloud base. Nobody showed me that on my IMC training but I just got the idea that you could do it and it all worked out fine. I would feel more confident in the future doing this.
I would be interested to hear what the radio request should have been to Edinburgh. I wanted to do their ILS down from FL40 and then break off at 1500ft to go off to Cumbernauld visually. What should I have requested.

Simply ask to use their ILS to become visual (I wouldn't suggest an altitude) and request a right/left break to proceed VFR. It might be an idea to find out what the cloud base is to make sure it is possible to continue VFR. As to whether they will let you use the ILS may depend how busy they are.

Fuji Abound
20th Mar 2006, 21:56
So you must be 1,000 feet above an undercast to be VFR? :}

Islander2
20th Mar 2006, 22:03
Unfortunately it is all too common on here for personalities to get in the way of genuine help.
Stuart, PM me if you'd like to share some flight time (your aeroplane or mine) with a more experienced, A36 instrument-rated pilot.

Islander2
21st Mar 2006, 09:44
Hmmmm. So let's remind ourselves of your past persona, bpilatus:

"understannding
I am not thinking, that some of you do not like my brocken English so much, yes?

It is good to laugh at some of your postings here and I don't mind that someone thinks of me funny because I am not so clear in all my postings. I even rememeber that some people posting above I fight with before sometimes :cool: So is okay ;)

Now I am not mad :mad: like always before when things were not so good with things. Now things are good here again :)"

Enough said? :yuk:

IO540
21st Mar 2006, 09:52
:O very well spotted.

There are two ways I know of of getting down "officially" through a layer:

Ask for an ILS down to VMC. Obviously get the ATIS first and make sure the base is at least 1000ft or so; you will look a right d**k if it is OVC004 down there because then there will be no way to go anywhere VFR :O

Ask for a "low level letdown". I know Shawbury does this and perhaps other military airfields. They give you vectors and descents, down to something like 1000ft above a surveyed area of terrain. They may ask what plan you have if you don't become VMC at the end, so have an answer ready - basically a climbing turn back to the airfield or whatever and a diversion somewhere.

Piltdown Man
21st Mar 2006, 10:36
Or you could even ask in plain language what you want like "Radar to a visual at XXX, please." The ATC people are generally very accommodating. Your part of the bargain is to determine where you think you are and have an escape plan should you not become visual by a certain level (like MSA) or a certain distance from X etc.

DFC
21st Mar 2006, 13:03
Stuart,

Can you provide more information about your route - dep airfield, route you followerd and where you climbed to FL80. There could be a very important reason why they asked but I need to know your route first.

Regards,

DFC

Fuji Abound
21st Mar 2006, 13:31
Proceed carefully!

Chilli Monster
21st Mar 2006, 14:13
Agreed! (but then we're back to something I said earlier).

Fuji Abound
21st Mar 2006, 14:19
Thats good then - it makes a change to agree :) .