Apache Escort? [Archive]

SASless

18th Mar 2006, 17:02

When it isn't going particularly well...and yer tit is in the mangle....those Apaches will be worth their weight in gold. (Assuming the fellas get enough practice with real bullets and rockets to be able hit what they are aiming for.)

Sooner or later it will go all ugly and having some Cavalry to call to save you from the Indians is nice. I would suggest all the Chinook pilots borrow some money from the Apache drivers.....as a bit of extra incentive. No rescue....no repayment.

laughingboy

18th Mar 2006, 17:11

i'll wager that the Apache pilots are as slow to find their wallets as their aircraft is at reaching 100knots.

Formation with AH by night! - no thanks (for obvious reasons)

besides Chinook aircrew are undoubtedly paid far more than AH pilots due to the many deployments giving them far more LSSA than their fabled Army counterparts.

WIWOWessex

18th Mar 2006, 18:43

It doesn't take a Tactics guru to work out that a Wocca at 100kts is easier to shoot down than one at 135!! Just because the latest thing fromn the Garage Door manufacturer in SW England is flying shotgun does'nt mean old Abdul isn't going to have a go.

laughingboy

18th Mar 2006, 19:12

Undoubtedly true, but probably because most of them of Squabbling Ble@ders (who rather than leading "squadrons" just about lead themselves to the cab) rather than SSgts or WOs.

jungly

a particularly intelligent reply from the senior service! (grammar!)
The Army Ssgts and WOs associated with the Apache fleet have had the logistical nightmare of walking from their squaron building to their dispersal at Dishforth for the last few years, as opposed to SH aircrew who have had to get down and dirty in various operational theatres for years without a pointless AH presence.

wg13_dummy

18th Mar 2006, 23:38

a particularly intelligent reply from the senior service! (grammar!)
The Army Ssgts and WOs associated with the Apache fleet have had the logistical nightmare of walking from their squaron building to their dispersal at Dishforth for the last few years, as opposed to SH aircrew who have had to get down and dirty in various operational theatres for years without a pointless AH presence.

Sounds like sour grapes old boy. One hopes all those AH SSgts and WO can utilise their 'down and dirty' experience of Op theatres, on the ground and in previous roles in supporting and defending the SH.

Willing to have a different mindset for future ops?

maccer82

19th Mar 2006, 00:29

Surely its the fact that every AAC aircraft over the last 30 or so years has proved itself in Northern Ireland, and not even the Army could justify sending a dedicated AH to the province! They therefore need to justify to the accountants that they will be used, and prove to the crabs that they are capable of operating something more complex than an electric toothbrush.

wg13_dummy

19th Mar 2006, 10:47

dedicated AH to the province!

Now theres a thought! Imagine an AH sat over the Loch at 3k. It could cover the whole province in one spot turn.....probably......:hmm:

Electric toothbrush? How does that work??

WIWOWessex

19th Mar 2006, 17:35

T:ok: he Apache is, without doubt, a very capable Anti-Tank platform and should be employed in that role. Sending it to Afghanistan is simply a way for General Melchet and his General staff to justify spending millions of pounds on a bit of kit which was ten years late into service and for which there is now no role!!!

timex

19th Mar 2006, 18:20

Sending it to Afghanistan is simply a way for General Melchet and his General staff to justify spending millions of pounds on a bit of kit which was ten years late into service and for which there is now no role!!!

Unless of course the **** does hit the fan, do you really think we are going to get away scot free in Afghanistan?

And on the subject of wasting millions, what about the CH47's sat in a hangar somewhere gathering dust as they cannot be used at the moment?

Roger the cabin boy

19th Mar 2006, 18:23

SASLess old chap - you are probably right; there will come a time when someone, be it CrabAir Wokka's or Pongo, will need the cavalry. However, I, and I suspect most infantry troops, would prefer that cavalry to be in the form of a (relatively) fast air asset like Harrier, on scene in 15 minutes pretty much anywhere in the AOR, than the undoubtedly capable Apache an hour or two later.
Nothing (much) against the AH Boys, or the AAC in general - the ones I've met are extremely pleasant and professional. In my opinion, it is all a rather large and unfortunate case of politics (we've bought it, lets use it!) and inter-service (let's justify having an Army Air Force) wrangling than achieving the operational imperative.
Echoing earlier comments, everyone fly safe (including me!)
Oh, by the way JunglyAEO - you rock!

timex

19th Mar 2006, 18:37

However, I, and I suspect most infantry troops, would prefer that cavalry to be in the form of a (relatively) fast air asset like Harrier, on scene in 15 minutes pretty much anywhere in the AOR, than the undoubtedly capable Apache an hour or two later.

Probably true to a point, but what happens when the clag is down to 100' or the CAS cannot find the tgt and doesn't have the time to loiter, the mountains up there can be pretty awkward to move around at 300+ kts too.

Bear in mind the AH will be on some form of strip alert fairly close to the Hot spots.

peoplespoet

19th Mar 2006, 18:38

Chaps,
As you know I have given the AH a hard time in the past and agree that sending it to Afghanistan just to escort a smarty tube full of track lube grunts is an utter waste of a £4.2bn investment.

I think that you will find that this is one of almost 20 items on the mission task list for AH in theatre. I do not intend to go into greater detail but lets just say it could clear the Lz visually by day from 15km and wipe it out from 8km. The escort role Apache with 30mm will cruise at 140KTAS and has the ability to fire on the move, of axis and hit sh1t first time, (if the crew have been train in this art - Oh I forgot they haven't)

Saying you don't need AH with you is like saying you don't want to take your personal protection weapon either, Oh thats right.... you don't but then nothing has changed with the SH mentality since the good old days in South Armagh when Lynx 5 had to lead them around by the hand and regularly back north side after nighttime excursions south of the borders 'Lost'.

PP

SASless

19th Mar 2006, 19:25

There is a whopping big difference between a couple of dedicated gunship pilots getting in close and personal, putting rounds on target, looking the bad guys in the eye as they punch the rockets off and shoot the cannon at them....as compared to a couple of Jets whizzing through at warp speed screaming for vectors to the safe ejection area.

I have been there....done that....and know too well how nice it is to see the helicopter gunship rolling on on some rascal that is hosing yer butt down with automatic weapons fire or RPG's. Tac Air has its role to play and cluster bombs and napalm do a trick on the bad guys....but for up close and personal the helicopter gunship is where it is at. I am here today because of some guys that had the ability to put mini-gun fire and 17 pound warhead rockets exactly where they wanted.

The key element is the "grit" the gunnies have and will they be willing to get down there amongst'em to lay the Whoop Ass on them? You are not gonna set out there at 7KM's and do squat but watch the Assault Aircraft get killed. If your Apache guys cannot consistently and confidently hit pinpoint targets with both cannon and rockets you are in deep, deep, trouble. If they cannot hit something with the first cannon rounds or first pair of rockets then the bad guys will have you for lunch.

If you guys go into Afghanistan thinking you hold the advantage in all regards....just wait until you have a bird down with survivors in a contested LZ. You will find yourselves learning some costly lessons about under-estimating your enemy, and you will be wanting all the mortars, artillery, Apaches, Harriers, F-18's, F-16's, and B-52's you can summon.

That time is coming, count on it.

For you Apache pilots out there....it is walking the walk that counts....not talking the talk. Don't think the shooting will be controlled runs, with nice setups, and lots of time to pick the good guys apart from the bad. Most of your serious work will be instinctive shooting with hard maneuvering to get in to the position to be able to shoot. If you cannot hit it on the move instinctly, you will be a liability to everyone in the LZ. How close are you prepared to shoot to your own troops? When the fur is flying....it will be tens of meters sometimes...are you capable of doing that?

Door Slider

19th Mar 2006, 20:10

Who knows for sure what opposition will be faced out there?
It could be nothing substantial but on the other hand it could be a big can of worms.
Regardless of the politics send it, if its not required bring it home.

pp
nothing has changed with the SH mentality since the good old days in South Armagh when Lynx 5 had to lead them around by the hand and regularly back north side after nighttime excursions south of the borders 'Lost'.?????

Lead us round by the hand? Hardly, we are capable of doing our own thing just Lynx 5 commander prefered to feel important. Lets be fair, SH and AAC were as guilty as each other for going south side!

The Helpful Stacker

19th Mar 2006, 20:24

Who knows for sure what opposition will be faced out there?
It could be nothing substantial but on the other hand it could be a big can of worms.
Regardless of the politics send it, if its not required bring it home.
pp
nothing has changed with the SH mentality since the good old days in South Armagh when Lynx 5 had to lead them around by the hand and regularly back north side after nighttime excursions south of the borders 'Lost'.?????
Lead us round by the hand? Hardly, we are capable of doing our own thing just Lynx 5 commander prefered to feel important. Lets be fair, SH and AAC were as guilty as each other for going south side!

And during my many holidays in Ulster with Tiswas I can only ever remember AAC assets running out of fuel in an interesting part of Ireland (possibly Northern) requiring us crabs to get them out of the sh1t.;)

Antelope

19th Mar 2006, 20:48

I'm almost at the conclusion of 'Operation Certain Death' and have had breifings on the mission in the past and was wondering in the context of this thread how people thought the Apache may compare to the Hind / Lynx air cover given to the Chinooks, SAS/SBS and Paras during Op Barras in Sierra Leone.

Ant

Edited for spelling and to also give mention to the SBS.

thelynxeffect

22nd Mar 2006, 12:55

As you know I have given the AH a hard time in the past and agree that sending it to Afghanistan just to escort a smarty tube full of track lube grunts is an utter waste of a £4.2bn investment.

PP

So would you agree leaving them to sit on the pan at back at 9 regt would be an even bigger waste of 4.2 billion quid.

It's too late to bitch, can we just all agree that MOD procurment sucks (all services) and get on and do the job, not cat fight like a bunch of children, one day that AH might just save your life.

All aircraft have a role that suits them best, it just so happens that this OP is the SH boys. They won't all be the same.

AHQHI656SQN

23rd Mar 2006, 20:31

I've resisted posting a reply, but I've just got to say, what utter tripe.

What is it, that the Apache has you so wound up. Why the cheap shots about the aircrew (especially the non-commisioned types).

My Squadron has worked very closely with the old smarty tubes recently including onboard HMS Ocean and we all seemed to get on well. Your drivel will only serve to breed contept for those who you claim to represent.

I'm not going to rise to slinging mud, not with the likes of you.

Sloppy Link

24th Mar 2006, 20:56

Chaps,
Apache with 30mm will cruise at 140KTAS and has the ability to fire on the move, of axis and hit sh1t first time, (if the crew have been train in this art - Oh I forgot they haven't)PP
PP,
Yet again you present a post with all the apparent grammar of one in the know. Clearly, upon inspection from those that do know, you are spouting drivel.

SL

xxx:D

peoplespoet

25th Mar 2006, 15:01

Sloppylink,

Sorry not biting (but which part is drivel?). I see however that the Helmand province is heating up nicely "1 US soldier dead and 3 injured during heavy fighting today".

The proof of the pudding shall be in the eating, and dinner is about to be served!

Quote: CO 9 Regt "we are ready for WAR....just give me an enemy to fight"....looks like Jimmy savell read the papers boss, does this mean we get a big silver medal on a red ribbon as well?

XXXPP:suspect:

Wingedapache

25th Mar 2006, 16:12

I really do worry about just how complacent the Chinook fleet are. Remember the area of interset is a lawless, violent and unknown area even to you. Also pays to remember that the bad guys come out to play in the Spring...so don't get complacent, who knows what will happen.
As far as the speed of the Apache, trust me it will have no problems matching the Chinook, the 100ts you talk about is out of date!

As far as NCO pilots go, the guys flying the Apache are about as good as they get, whatever their background and for the uneducated amongst you most of them have seen operational service whilst acting as aircrew and also in most cases on the ground as infantry, armoured Corps and in some cases Special Forces, I'm sure you will agree that you could not want for a better bunch of guys to be baby sitting you! And from the initial and subsequent comments from the boys in blue, I feel that babysit is the correct term. So why don't we all stop worrying about each others jobs and get on with being professional in our own areas, also may pay to be a little more professional in our military capacity as well and stop the imature and unprofessional slagging.

SubdiFuge

25th Mar 2006, 17:44

So when called out on a casevac, the Chinooks won't have to wait for the AH to start up, whilst the casualty bleeds to death - or is the CO going to threaten to take disciplinary action just like he did on Eagle's Herrick if the Chinooks happen to be ready to go well before the AH.

I'm not saying the AH won't play its part, but it wasn't needed in 2002 was it?

I just hope that Chinook ops aren't limited to the radius of action of the AH, cos that would be barking.

SASless

25th Mar 2006, 19:50

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/news/Afghanistan/afghan_mountain_lion_AH64.jpg

Is there a very green hue to the Crab blue here or is it just my imagination?

I do believe the Crabs are miffed the Pongos have better toys than they...or is that my imagination too?

Anyone that cannot appreciate the value of having close-in helicopter gunship cover when the LZ turns into a duck shoot has no concept of reality I fear. If you are a Chinook crewmember harboring any thought whatsoever that you don't need the Apaches along....would you mind putting me on your life insurance policy as a beneficiary?

An example of how simple it is to find yerself wishing you were anywhere else....

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/history/aircraft/E_Models/92-00475/92-00475.html

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/history/aircraft/D_Models/91-00269/91-00269.html

SubdiFuge

25th Mar 2006, 20:33

And your point is that the AQ or Taleban would have run crying to their moms just because an AH was there - get real. These guys couldn't give a toss about armed helis, they would relish the chance to take that out too. The only things these guys don't like are fast jets and AC130s.

And for the record I've never said that I wouldn't want AH along - I just wouldn't want to mince around at 100kts with it a RESCORT - or for that matter, for it to wake up the locals in advance of my arrival. Also, there will be more occasions than not when the UK AH will not have the legs to get to where the Chinooks need to go - these ain't US AH with Robbie and pylon tanks you know!

The Chinook you refer to, is that the one which was shot down after the AH sweep cleared the LZ and then poked off?

SASless

25th Mar 2006, 20:45

Sub,

Have you been shot at? You ever land in an LZ under fire from hostile forces within 100 meters or less of your lofty perch in a Chinook?

You reckon a fast jet can do squat for you when that is going on?

The AC-130 can do miracles but how many of those do you lot have dedicated to your support? How long you going to have to wait for one of them to show up after you find yourself parked in the middle of a rifle range during a live fire practice?

You ever seen what a real gunship pilot can do when he knows his stuff?

As to the magic hour....the sad and tragic part of war is soldiers have been getting maimed and killed in them forever and that will not change ever. The key is to have all the firepower in the world hovering about (or orbiting overhead in the case of the AC130 and fast movers).

The AQ nor Taliban will run to Momma....that is exactly the point. They will gladly kill you if they have an opporunity. When they learn it is a losing process when the Apaches are there....they might just decide to play with the baby's Momma instead of taking a whack at you. Go in with just your Wokka and big ego and you will come second sooner or later.

Two's in

25th Mar 2006, 20:58

Wasn't the other point from SASless that when the $hit hit the fan everyone on this op worked as a team, regardless of what service they were from, and regardless of the everday "fog of war" decisions that got them into that fix in the first place? In fact, the kind of of teamwork you rely on to stay alive every day.

mutleyfour

25th Mar 2006, 22:36

Cant you lot just give it a rest, for it won't be long until all elements are in country and like it or not will need to get on. even if thats only to keep the troops on the ground in as safe an environment as ALL aviation assets can help to provide.

Whilst we all ike a bit of banter this is turning into a slanging match.

Time out gentlemen please

iPodder

25th Mar 2006, 23:36

Having served on Chinooks in Bagram the first time and been part of Herrick Eagle I'm pleased to say that the Ch-47 fleet and AH will get on just fine. AH is a cool bit of kit and I'd be well pleased to have it ride shotgun for me. That said, we do need to understand that this AO is more dangerous than the last one and maybe we are too keen to crow about our success; but boasting about what you've done is better than boasting about what you might be able to do!
Some changes will make working togther in Afghanistan easier.
1- We are different to the Army, Joint means working together not being the same.
2- We don't have RSMs so don't expect us to understand what he's screaming about.
3- Don't ask us what the Chinook can do and then ignore us because a staff college handout disagrees, it's very rude.
4- The answer is 2 Chinooks plus 2 AH at the LZ, now what's the question.

Hope that helps calm what was becoming a very boring thread.

SASless, tell us what you've done so we can learn before deploying; your constant hinting of what you've seen and done is becoming a touch tedious.

wg13_dummy

25th Mar 2006, 23:52

Will AH have their 30mm barrels fitted? :rolleyes:

KENNYR

26th Mar 2006, 00:11

WG13...........only if they can find it in Otterburn.:)

SASless

26th Mar 2006, 00:22

iPods,

I would suggest getting access to any "Lessons Learned" summaries generated by other coalition aviation units that have operated in the Afghanistan and in particular the area in which you are headed. You might even consider doing a liasion trip to do a bit of hangar talk with guys who are current with the situation and location. Good ideas oft times get washed out on the way up the ladder and merely reading staff studies might not necessarily contain all the really useful information.

Other folks may not operate to your SOP's but comparing your current procedures and policies to the Lessons Learned might save you some grief. Just because the SOP is written one way does not mean it is etched in stone either...become repetitive and predictable and you will have problems as well.

Don't base future hopes of success upon past experiences....the Bad Guys are adapting and improving their tactics/strategy just as we are (or we should be anyway). Bad Guys have good days too....just like we do.

All my escapades are ancient history....but the basics are the same. If the Bad Guys ever take the initiative away from you....things get ugly in a hurry. Just be prepared to hit the ground and join the infantry should your Birdie decide to leave you in a lurch. That translates to there is no such thing as too much ammunition or too many different types of signalling devices. If they are not attached to you...you probably will leave them behind when you do the "Legging It" routine.

As they say...Total awareness is not paranoia.

NURSE

26th Mar 2006, 00:46

I seam to remember on Tellic when the 6 RMP were taken out. A chinook flying in an IRT got shot up and many of the personell on board were injured i think the figures were 10 including an RAFVR Doctor. would an apache on scene have made a difference i would say quite probably.

SubdiFuge

26th Mar 2006, 05:59

Just don't let the AH's performance be the driver for everything. If there is a job that needs doing and it needs doing now, if the AH can't play because it will restrict the Chinooks, then please don't stop the Chinooks going. If its to risky to go alone to an LZ then use some fast air to support the job. I'm sure that AH will play an important role, but if it can't play, it doesn't mean nobody else can.

Evalu8ter

26th Mar 2006, 08:55

SASless

26th Mar 2006, 10:31

Eval,

Those crashes came as a result of not being trained up and equipped to do the mission as you should recall and you are correct in noting how it so adversely effected the mission.

The key is appropriate and adequate training and equipment, and procedures designed for the area and threat as they are....not as they are imagined to be.

The Apaches presence will not stop a Chinook from being downed...RPG's fired from close range, small arms fire from close range, and large caliber machine guns and Manpads can always succeed. The key is the close in support the Apaches will be able to provide (should be able to provide) by directing direct fire onto the Bad Guys after the Chinook is downed and the crew/pax are engaged in a firefight with the Oppos.

You will find rockets to be more effective than the gun in all likelihood. The mindset that rockets are "area fire" weapons will have to change. Anyone talk to the US Apache guys and see how they altered their tactics after they got into action in Iraq and Afghanistan to see what they have learned? The Marines in their Cobras have gone to using run and gun tactics it appears.

SASless

26th Mar 2006, 11:18

Perhaps this is the scuffle he refers to....

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (AP) — Afghan and U.S. troops backed by American aircraft fought suspected Taliban Saturday in southern Afghanistan, leaving one U.S. service member and seven militants dead, officials said.
An American service member and an Afghan soldier also were wounded in the fighting in Helmand province's Sangin district, the U.S. military said in a statement. The region is a hotbed of insurgency and the booming drugs trade.

Afghan army commander Gen. Rahmatullah Raufi said seven suspected Taliban rebels were killed, while several others fled.

U.S. war planes dropped 11 guided bombs on about 20 militants involved in the clash, the U.S. statement said, adding that an assessment of militant casualties was ongoing.

"There are known Taliban extremists in the Sangin district and the Afghan National Army and coalition forces will continue to attack these enemies of Afghanistan until the district and province are safe and secure," U.S. commander Maj. Gen. Benjamin C. Freakley said.

The wounded troops were evacuated to a coalition base for treatment, the statement said.

The American's death brought to 222 the number of U.S. service members killed in and around Afghanistan since the ouster of the Taliban in 2001.

Fighting has spiked in southern Afghanistan in the past year, leaving swaths of it off-limits to aid workers and raising concerns for this country's fragile democracy.

iPodder

26th Mar 2006, 12:44

Laughingboy, well said.
SASless, I'm on a Chinook Sqn, there are RAF Chinooks in theatre, the Stn has an Int Offr or 3. We're trying hard to learn lessons before we deploy proper; including re-learning lessons from the last time WE were out there as wel as all the other Chinook ops we've been on in the last few turbulent years. The only lesson we don't want to learn is how to be more like the Army, let it sink in fellas the Army and the RAF are not the same; we're similar but different.
Front Seater- One of the best bits of Herrick Eagle for me was meeting and working with Lynx and AH crews, top lads; except the RSM who shouted at everyone post Church parade even though the RAF were on time for once!

Jointery will be a success in theatre if we respect our differences. We'll laugh at you marching up and down the square and you can laugh at us for needing help to dress and eat in the morning! Godspeed one and all.

cobaltfrog

26th Mar 2006, 14:23

Ipodder

Good post. We all work for a common goal and yes we do have our differences. In my, somewhat limited, experience we crack on and find ways round any problems to get the job done. I see no reason why the deployment to Afghanistan should not be the same. I would urge people not to slag off the JHF(A) before it has had time to bear fruit! It will be tough but I have no doubt that it will work, mostly because of the attitude of the people in it!:ok:

NURSE

26th Mar 2006, 14:30

Nurse, please don't get carried away with the thought that an Apache could/would have prevented the Chinook getting shot up back in 2003. The myth of Apache invincibility / aura of striking fear into anything that moves that was generated by Gulf War 1 (and perpetuated by McD Douglas) has long gone. It started waning in Kosovo when, under the heavy glare of the media, Apaches were sent to Albania as a "message" to Serbian troops in Kosovo; the Serbs didn't surrender, particularly after they started crashing all over Albania during trg sorties. Witness how "reluctant" the Taleban/AQ/ACF have been to engage Apaches / Cobras during OEF & OIF. For many of them it is a badge of pride to take on an attack helo, probably akin to driving a car of full of C4 into a checkpoint. While I fully agree that having an AH running shotgun is a damn good thing to have, it must be realised that it will not prevent you being engaged-just lessen the chances of you being brought down as (hopefully) the ambushees will receive swift justice in the form of a 30mm burst once they initiate an engagement. The publicity hype from the early 1990s has gone, AH is just another (albeit powerful & flexible) tool in the box and must be planned and used accordingly.

I am well aware how vulnerable the Apache is I saw the US army scrap park after they tried to take on the Iraqi armoured div in 03 when they got shot to sh1t. But given the fact that the Paras who were pinned down had to wait for armour to stabilise the situation i personally think that a few AH64's could have provided some fire support to both the chinook and the troops in conntact. Yes I agree having some dedicated fire support is no bad idea. And there is some anxiety about the first deployment of the AH but until we do have an inital operational deployment the problems can't be sorted and actually this type of 'Entry Op' is probably the best chance to sort it as from the elements of 16Air Assualt i was helping work up there appears to be alot of flexibility. And RSM's do shout scream and Ball at everyone on exercise its what they get paid for but once deployed he'll be a fairly busy man.

MightyGem

26th Mar 2006, 15:45

or for that matter, for it to wake up the locals in advance of my arrival

Wake up the locals? If they can hear it over the approaching thud of your chinook!! ;)

iPodder

26th Mar 2006, 19:15

Front Seater,

If you and I can agree on prune then Afghan will be no problem at all.
Chinook is big and fast, AH is smaller with a much bigger punch. Mix up the two without senior officers (excluding the RQHI and the Navy exchange, both top lads on Herrick Eagle) and I think we'll have a great volleyball comp.

Godspeed all.

peoplespoet

27th Mar 2006, 10:10

Ipodder,
you cant not be talking about the RQHI and navy exchange at the AH unit I know!

PP

iPodder

27th Mar 2006, 16:36

I can only comment on my own experience. I thought all the AAC line aircrew that I met and flew with during the exercise were good value. We are going to batter you at volleyball and looking sloppy though!!

The Apprentice

2nd Apr 2006, 15:44

Where on earth did the 100 kts crap come from for Apache, and why on earth restrict chinook to 100 kts, neither make sense nor are in any staff handbook.

Detached Escort anybody.......?

Oh and half the Fast Air is leaving so like or not your security blanket for the day will be an Apache team.

Finally towards the back end of this thread common sense seems to have broken out. Living together and working together will make you talk, only flying and fighting together will make you a team.

The province of Helmund will be like another province back in the late 80`s. Regular contacts lots on the ground (wouldn`t want to be in a truck), long periods of boardom, interrupted but some very exciting moments.

Have fun see you out there - fight as a team !