Eurofighter Typhoon - Maybe only half a lemon

[Navaleye]

Interesting article here. (http://www.ausairpower.net/typhoon.html) The question about how real the supercruise capability is raises an eyebrow or two.

The Typhoon's weaknesses are its F/A-18C class weight and thrust and the implications of this in combat at extended operational radii, and the longer term sensitivity of its BVR weapons advantage to equivalent technological developments in opposing fighters.

In terms of where to position the Typhoon in the current menagerie of fighter aircraft, it can be best described as an F/A-18C sized fighter with BVR systems and agility performance better than older F-15 models, similar to growth F-15 models with same generation systems and engines, but inferior to the F-15 in useful operating radius. The Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft, despite various assertions to this effect, nor is it a genuine supercruiser like the F-22. Its design incorporates none of the features seen in very low observable types, nor does the EJ200 incorporate the unique design features of the F119 and F120 powerplants.

The Typhoon is certainly not a lemon, although the wisdom of mass producing a high performance conventional fighter of its ilk in a period where stealth is about to hit mass production in the F-22 and JSF programs could be seriously questioned.

[Jackonicko]

I was going to respond sensibly and patiently until I saw that you were quoting Carlo Kopp, a serious analyst only in his own estimation and widely regarded as a 'know nothing f*ckwit' even among enthusiasts and aviation journos.

In common with so many observers who have no piloting experience, he is completely unable to appreciate the importance of the Man Machine Interface, and is able to judge a cockpit only by what it looks like in a still photograph.

He's equally unable to draw any conclusion from the difference in stability between the F-15 which so dazzles him, and the Typhoon, which he simply can't understand. He has no idea about agility, pitch change, drag, and specific fuel consumption.

Instead, he relies absolutely on the selective (blurred) open source performance figures he can find in Jane's - adequate if you're a computer gamer, I'd imagine, but wanting if you want to assess and analyse aircraft.

There are plenty of Spaniards (and a few ex-exchange blokes on 17 and 29) who'd laugh even harder than I did at his statement that: "An experienced F/A-18 pilot who flew the Typhoon simulator commented to the author that the aircraft's manoeuvre/handling performance did not appear to be a dramatic improvement over the F/A-18, and rudder authority at high AoA did not match the F/A-18. It is however possible that further refinement of the flight control software could have yielded handling improvements since the mid nineties."

His contention that: "upgrading the F-15 with engines and a radar/IRS&T/AAM package of the same generation as that of the Typhoon would equalise almost all advantages held by the Typhoon over older F-15C/E variants" is also of staggering stupidity.

Or perhaps we should save money, sack all the TPs and evaluation teams, and rely on blokes like Carlo Krapp to choose our future platforms.....

Sorry, I mean Doctor Carlo Kopp.:8

[LowObservable]

Not bad, but there has been better stuff said, and I think he misses a couple of points; I would look at the piece and wonder what his source is on supercruise.

[LowObservable]

Sheesh, JN, you threw that in while I was typing.

Now, why don't you let us know what you really feel about the good Dr Kopp.

[Jackonicko]

He's very good to his mother. :}

As an aviation analyst he writes very well about telecommunications. ;)

I admire the way he brandishes his doctorate when writing about aviation, :E and really must get round to reading his thesis on "the properties of high capacity ad hoc networks and long range microwave datalinks on mobile platforms." :zzz:

And I know he speaks very highly of me, too! :yuk:

[brickhistory]

not quite as racy as a 'chick fight' but nice to see all the same.

[Navaleye]

Crikey talk about inter service rivalry. I'm sure he appreciates your work too :}

[BEagle]

The Herr Doktor indeed appears more anal than analyst, Jacko!

'know nothing f*ckwit' seems a pretty fair assessment.

Mind you, whether the TypHoon's supersonic agility (which is, I understand, its trump card) is actually relevant these days is perhaps another issue.

But it's probably the biggest advance in manned fighters the RAF has had since Lightnings replaced Hunters and Javelins.

Or Vulcans replaced Lincolns and Washingtons.

[LowObservable]

[QUOTE=BEagle]'know nothing f*ckwit' seems a pretty fair assessment.
QUOTE]

But it's also a tautology.

[Zoom]

The good bit was being reminded of how the ECA had metamorphosed into the Typhoon via 5 other programmes/names. But didn't he miss one out, which had 2000 in it's name? Remind me, please, someone.

[jwcook]

Come on guys.. be fair.. IIRC Carlo did write a couple of good peices on ASRAAM and ALARM... Now before everyone calls me horrid names I did say this to him about one of his F-22 peices!!

The article looks to me like a four page advertisement from the F22
team, and I'm sorry to say this makes the article seem to have all the
credibility of a secondhand car salesman.

and that was in 1998!!, he was not impressed!!

I do not accept this, John. You for some unclear reason wish to cling to soon to be obsoleted technology.

Doncha just love google!!, if you troll through there you will see the same names of F-22 supporters eg Carlo, jensen and a few others whos names keep appearing in the press with regard to the Australia fighter purchase...

Amazing..

cheers

[Magoodotcom]

If you want a real cure for insomnia (or perhaps depression) read this!

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/adfair/subs/sub20.pdf

The committee hearings are on March 31.

Magoo

[Ex Douglas Driver]

Don't forget the "a few simple sheet metal changes" quote when trying to explain how easy it would be to re-engine, re-life and update the F111 and turn it into a supercruising, AMRAAM firing air dominance interceptor, master of all trades saviour of the free world. Easy, easy, easy.....:hmm:

Those in the know, turn the page and ignore his lengthy scribblings. Those who aren't, are now warned!

[Raymond Ginardon]

I'd not come across this Kopp bloke before - one more name to add to my 'idiot, ignore' list.

I'm actually quite impressed by how many incorrect statements and utterly basic misunderstandings he managed to get in to that one little section.

Having flown (and properly understood, because that's my job) 15's various, 18's various and Typhoon, I would say that Ex DD's advice is sound :-)

I'd love to meet this bloke one day......

Ray

[LowObservable]

You can't totally take issue with the Dr's crush on the Aardvark. If you live in a place the size of Oz, there's something about two engines, swing wing and 34,000 pounds of internal fuel that is reassuring. And then the F110 is about the same mass flow and dimensions as the TF30... and everyone and his aunt is selling AESA retrofits this year... Hire the Israelis to integrate the avionics, get a few gearheads out of the spook-mod shop at Foat Wuff to do the airframes, add JASSM and Meteor... Now tell me that's worse than a JSF.