Ryanair leave passengers in the lurch again [Archive]

sky9

16th Mar 2006, 08:56

A friend was traveling on the Ryanair FR 8352 last Friday (10th March) from Almeria to Stansted. The flight was due to depart at 2140 and they checked in at 1915 and noticed that the flight was delayed. They were informed that the flight would be departing at 2315 and went through to the departure lounge. 30 minutes later they were told that the flight had now been cancelled but were given no reason. They were told that they might be able to get on the Ryanair flights next day from either Granad or Murcia hardly worth driving miles for a possiblity.

Does anyone know exactly why the flight was cancelled, also exactly what compensation they are due bearing in mind that they had already checked in before the flight was cancelled.

My feeling is that this is a poor way to run an airline.

Voeni

16th Mar 2006, 09:34

"My feeling is that this is a poor way to run an airline"

sky9 - wake up! You get what you pay for!

Why do passengers expect the same from FR than from, say BA? For the few pounds they pay, they simply cannot expect more! And this is by no means meant against FR, but against all complaining pax.

MONCTON FIR

16th Mar 2006, 09:34

I GUESS YOU GET WHAT U PAY FOR? THIS SHOULD NOT COME AS ANY SURPRISE TO ANYONE WHO KNOWS RYR. HOPE THE PASSENGERS DONT TRY AND CLAIM EXPENCES, BOY WILL THEY BE OUT OF LUCK:eek:

You Gimboid

16th Mar 2006, 09:38

exactly what compensation they are due

I could give you an exact figure..........:{ :{ :{

Andy_S

16th Mar 2006, 09:45

My feeling is that this is a poor way to run an airline.

I get a bit fed up of hearing this.

Presumably your friends were happy enough with the price they paid for their tickets and the fact that the route is available in the first place. But when things go wrong, they want compensation.......

What they will get is either a) an alternative Ryanair flight whenever this may be available, or b) a full refund. That's it, end of story. Ryanair will either get you to your destination themselves, or give you your money back.

The Ryanair business model should be well understood by now. If you don't like it, don't fly with them.

Flying Microphone

16th Mar 2006, 09:53

Voeni wrote

"wake up! You get what you pay for!

Why do passengers expect the same from FR than from, say BA? For the few pounds they pay, they simply cannot expect more! And this is by no means meant against FR, but against all complaining pax."

Come off it Voeni... Cheap airlines take people cash with a promise of service. If they fail to deliver it, then it's no ones fault but their own (the airline that is). They put together business plans and costings to undercut each other. If they over reach themselves... too bad, they should face the consequences as in any other business.

There seems to be too much of a "well you get what you pay for" acceptance creeping into their business models.

Should the "you get what you pay for" philosophy extend to flight safety too?

When a company's whole business plan is "we fly you on the cheap" then we, as paying customers have every right to expect them to fullfill that promise and not blindly accept their spin that "well you get what you pay for".

Just my thoughts!!!

The SSK

16th Mar 2006, 09:54

Like every other airline departing an EU airport, they are bound by European law, specifically Regulation 261/2004, on passenger protection. They are ignoring the law as a matter of policy, but that doe3sn't make them any less liable. Complain to the relevant authority.

Outlook

16th Mar 2006, 10:01

The customer helps decides the policy using our hard earned currency; If people like the policy (aka cost model) then they use the Airline; otherwise they don't and then either the policy changes or the Airline goes under.

If you don't like the policy then don't use the Airline.

(My view; I'd rather go with BA or other flag carries for the superior customer service and peace of mind)

The SSK

16th Mar 2006, 10:07

The customer helps decides the policy using our hard earned currency; If people like the policy (aka cost model) then they use the Airline; otherwise they don't and then either the policy changes or the Airline goes under.
If you don't like the policy then don't use the Airline.
(My view; I'd rather go with BA or other flag carries for the superior customer service and peace of mind)

That argument would seem to give the airline carte blanche to ignore any regulation it cares to.

maxy101

16th Mar 2006, 10:09

Outlook

16th Mar 2006, 10:11

Maybe this is a little bit oversimplified but:

Regulations exist to protect everyone's Safety.
Policies exist to differentiate Airlines and attract the customer's cash.

Regulations are changed by the appropriate safety bodes.
Policies are changed by the customer electing to use the Airline.

The SSK

16th Mar 2006, 10:23

An EU Regulation is Law, pure and simple.
It may not be good law (and this particular one stinks) but it is Law.

The (responsible) airlines who argue reasonably against some of its worst aspects, and would like to see them changed to everyone's benefit, aren't helped by one airline which systematically ignores every aspect, thereby reinforcing the perception 'that's why we need strong regulation'.

captainpaddy

16th Mar 2006, 10:56

This sort of discussion always seems to go the same way doesn't it?

I only want to say that I am tired of the pro-RYR lot always saying that you get what you pay for. It implies that all 125 or 185 or whatever people on board all paid 9.99 return for their trip so stuff them. Tough *%&$.

Firstly, if I could buy a cake in a shop for 3 euro, but elect to go to another shop and get the same cake for 50 cent, should I accept that it might be mouldy? Of course not. Why is this any different? It is completely unacceptable to condone screwing your passengers because you think they didn't pay enough to deserve fair treatment. (By the way, I am talking about fair treatmnet not legal treatment)

Secondly, it is almost never the case that all passengers paid "next to nothing" for their fare. Anyone who through circumstances irrelevant to this discussion had to book their flight late probably paid through the nose for their ticket. Where's their justice? How come they get thrown in the same bucket as the people who should "expect what they paid for"?

Just checked the RYR website for DUB-LGW in two days time. 199 euro one way. What treatment should I take to be acceptable for that price?

What a ridiculous argument :*
CP

sky9

16th Mar 2006, 12:03

Some of the replies would appear to suggest that nobody should travel with Ryanair and as pointed out, the basis of "you didn't pay much" is specious.

On the basis of their terms and conditions, Ryanair might take you if they feel like it but there again they might change their minds. I am surprised that anyone can actually condone allowing people to check in i.e. accepting them for the flight then informing them that the flight is cancelled.

Does anyone have the real reason why the flight was canceled other than it was delayed and therefore easier to cancel than to operate.

Piltdown Man

16th Mar 2006, 12:35

The price is inmaterial, but you must have paid something (valuable consideration). RYR then have a legal obligation to take from A to B. If they can't, they must inform you of your rights and then make further arrangements as appropriate. The EU rule is very easy to understand and can be read and/or downloaded from:

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/ oj/dat/2004/l_046/l_04620040217en00010007.pdf

However, it is also reasonable to wonder people pay as much as they do for "cheap" flights when often the "old" boys like BA and AF etc. operate similar routes (to the proper airports, not the renamed RYR jobs) often for lower prices, treat you as a customer and sort out the problems when they happen. Obviously, not all of the customers are pleased all of the time, but they have paid for they service and they will get it. And here is an example: A flight has to start from Metz/Nancy instead of Luxembourg due to the diversion of the inbound aircraft. Those passengers who could be re-routed from Luxembourg were, those who couldn't went to Metz. The airline provided the connection. Beer (etc.) and pretzels for all (part of the standard service). Those who were rescheduled for later flights went, and those who couldn't were provided with Hotels, meal vouchers and re-booked flights. The price of the ticket was not relevant - these people paid for a service and got one (eventually)!

Andy_S

16th Mar 2006, 15:45

Firstly, if I could buy a cake in a shop for 3 euro, but elect to go to another shop and get the same cake for 50 cent, should I accept that it might be mouldy? Of course not. CP

I'm sorry, but that's a pretty poor analogy. A better one might be to say that you could get the same cake for 50 cents in another shop, but that it wouldn't come with a paper plate, a fork and a napkin. You know very well you're going to have to eat it with your hands, so you can hardly complain when you get icing on your fingers!

Flying Microphone

16th Mar 2006, 16:01

That's fine Andy, so long as the cake arrives in the first place and is serviceable (in this case edible).

Paper plates, no frills, fine... that's what I expect for 50p but I wouldn't expect to be told on arrival in the bakery... "yes, we received your order and took your money, but there's no cake available and what do you expect? You only paid 50p... durrr!"

No brainer really.

We don't expect frills but there IS an obligation on any supplier to deliver the goods as promised or come up with a vaild excuse why that's not the case and make necessary recompense.

under_exposed

16th Mar 2006, 16:45

They would say "Sorry we have no cake, here is your 50p back" and you would go elsewhere for a cake. Just like Ryanair if the flight was not available.

bealine

16th Mar 2006, 16:46

Surely, a letter to the relevant Ryanair office asking for compensation (if eligible) and if nothing is forthcoming, a visit to the local Small Claims Court. Obviously, this assumes that their is legislation that covers this kind of eventuality.

An EU Regulation is Law, pure and simple.
It may not be good law (and this particular one stinks) but it is Law.

The price is inmaterial, but you must have paid something (valuable consideration). RYR then have a legal obligation to take from A to B. If they can't, they must inform you of your rights and then make further arrangements as appropriate. The EU rule is very easy to understand and can be read and/or downloaded from:

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/...en00010007.pdf

Ha - Ha - Ha ! I'm splitting my sides laughing at how naiive you are! This is RYANAIR we're talking about - R-Y-A-N-A-I-R This outfit is beyond any Law yet devised - so the small matter of EU compensation won't faze them one iota!

Until the EU and the CAA enforce their Laws, Michael O'leary will continue to treat his "customers" as M-U-G-S!!! (.....But then, if you pay 99p for your ticket, do you really expect customer service - that is a "Frill"???)

Flying Microphone

16th Mar 2006, 16:50

Or more likely, Ryanairs response would be.......................................................... ...................................

(sound of Ryanair staff's feet leaving check in desk)

Andy_S

16th Mar 2006, 17:05

They would say "Sorry we have no cake, here is your 50p back" and you would go elsewhere for a cake.

Indeed. Or - "You can wait until we've finished baking the next batch".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a particular fan of Ryanair, but it seems some people want to have it both ways. They're happy enough to take advantage of Ryanair fares and Ryanair routes that wouldn't be viable for a traditional carrier, but in the small minority of cases where something goes wrong they then expect the backup and customer support of a full fare airline.

You have a choice. If you want the security of being taken care of when your flight is cancelled, then choose your carrier accordingly.

captainpaddy

16th Mar 2006, 17:29

Sorry we don'y actually have a cake for you. I know you ordered your cake three months ago and we made you stand in line and take a ticket when you arrived but we're sorry.

Here's your 50p back. (Fair enough)

If you want a similar cake tomorrow you can have it for 200 euro. (Not really fair)

Don't get angry! What do you expect? You only paid 50p in the first place! (Not really fair) The fact that our oven broke is immaterial! (Fair enough)

If we didn't have your cake because the delivery man couldn't get through the snow you wouldn't have got anything back at all so suck it up!!! (Hmmmmmm.....)

I'm kinda hungry now........:D

sky9

16th Mar 2006, 18:32

The argument about not paying much is specious. My thoughts are that you have a contract with Ryanair. On the basis of that contract the passenger then enters into other contracts for car hire and accomadation which hav like Ryanair been paid for in advance. It follows therefore that Ryanair opting out of its side of the contract places the passenger in a situation where not only could they loose their hotel costs but also their holiday.

In the case that I quoted the passengers had actually checked in for the flight and had therefore been accepted for travel (they had paid 1p for the flight plus the usual "loads of money" for various additional costs).
Due to the cancellation they incurred the cost of buying short notice tickets back to the UK and car hire for the night. In addition they missed their work next day.
So thanks MOL you will be hearig from them.

BRUpax

16th Mar 2006, 18:33

Many of you keep on about "you get what you pay for". This is total rot. Only a relatively small percentage of the seats on each flight are sold at giveaway prices. A large majority of pax who are poorly treated by the likes of RYR have paid standard type fares.

sky9

16th Mar 2006, 19:29

Interestingly they had already been moved from Thursday to Friday by Ryanair and the operating airline on the way out was a Spanish Subcharter. I suspect that this is all tied in with the earlier thread about "late delivery of aircraft from Boeing" otherwise know as "lack of Crews".

Bangkokeasy

17th Mar 2006, 02:42

Always amusing to read the pros and cons of Ryanair in pprune!

Cutting through the rhetoric, there are some interesting questions behind this, apart from the obvious ones.

1) Why do customers put up with Ryanair's lack of service? (and they do in their droves)

2) How far are Ryanair prepared to push the envelope, when it comes to their customers?

The above are of course, linked. The analogy of the cake is apt I think. Ryanair customers are going for the cake at 50p, flying in the face of conventional wisdom, that says that there is a concept of value and you get what you pay for. I think the reasons are quite complicated and there is no one answer. Some demand, rightly or wrongly, that the cake be fresh. Others don't give a hoot and accept "caveat emptor". Again, from the competition point of view, it is probably the case that their assumptions of customers demands for service are flawed. The competition is also not playing to their own strengths, as well as allowing Ryanair to lead the way, instead of pre-empting their moves. On the one hand you have Ryanair, who are sailing as close to the wind as their customers will permit them. On the other, the competition are lacking flexibility, consistency and above all, leadership and innovation.

That all said, my own experience of being "left in the lurch" by Ryanair is comparitively pleasant. Arriving for a flight from Treviso to the UK in August 2004, we found that flight was delayed. After an hour, it became clear there was no aircraft. After another hour or two, however, a fleet of coaches turned up and bussed us all (around 100 PAX) about 1.5 hrs to another airport, where lo and behold, there was a Ryanair plane on the tarmac. About 4.5 hours delay, but a flight nevertheless. From a customer service point of view, no-show of original aircraft aside, we could expect not much more from a regular carrier. It was only when on the coach and hurtling through the Italian countryside, that I realised that my girlfriend, who is Thai and requires a Shengen visa, had simply walked out of the airport, hung around in the car park and got on the coach, etc, AFTER being cleared out of the Shengen area by immigration. Didn't seem to worry the Italians though, and there was no problem at the second airport!

daedalus

17th Mar 2006, 06:19

It is true that the EU regulation 261/2004 mandates compensation.

It is also true that Ryanair (and other low-fare airlines) have jointly contested this law as transposed into UK legislation since its introduction.

The case having gone through the UK legal system was referred ultimately to the EU Court of Justice in Luxembourg, which has just (last week) pronounced on the case, in favour of the plaintiff and against the low-fare airlines.

It is now up to the low-fare airlines to comply with the ruling. The judges of the Court expressed the hope that they would do so, in order to avoid repeat applications through the courts and ultimately to the ECJ by passengers.

:hmm:

sky9

17th Mar 2006, 06:36

The regulation is at: http://europa.eu.int/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexplus!prod!DocNumber&lg=en&type_doc=Regulation&an_doc=2004&nu_doc=261

and is so clear that anyone can understand it.
Now whats the address of Ryanair customer services; or should they send it recorded delivery to MOL?

slim_slag

17th Mar 2006, 09:48

Now then, lot's of inaccurate statements about the costs of trips on FR. If it continues I shall have to get my spreadsheet out, and we don't want that! :)

daedalus, what "last week" case was that?

wanderin_star

17th Mar 2006, 10:16

Many people I am sure fly Ryanair because they live close to local airport such as Stansted, Luton and dont want to travel to Heathrow. Therefore booking close to departure date often the fare is little different to B.A. - therefore not everyone pays 10 pounds or silly amount for fare and deserve better treatment.

flybhx

17th Mar 2006, 14:46

Ryanair will continue to do as they please until someone decides to get a court judgement against them and an airport sticks the snow ploughs round one of their aircraft. The bailiffs seem to be the only people that many companies will take notice of.

PaperTiger

17th Mar 2006, 15:42

1) Why do customers put up with Ryanair's lack of service? (and they do in their droves).How much of FR's loads are repeat business ? Genuine question - I have no idea.
I suspect the majority are infrequent flyers who do not read boards such as these, and are thus unaware of Ryanair's umm... modus operandi.

Airbus_a321

18th Mar 2006, 07:10

For the few pounds they pay, they simply cannot expect more! And this is by no means meant against FR, but against all complaining pax.
Who pays a few pounds only, as you say ? :confused:
0.xy % of the pax, maybe ? And the big rest ?
I NEVER could get a ticket for a few pounds/euros.
I am not a FUN-Traveller maybe like you. I can not buy the ticket 3 yrs in advance to get the RYR-High-Special-Customer-Friendly-Offer-blablabla. for 99pence ONLY + let's say 45 pounds for tax/fees:\
So if they decide to cxl the flight just like this, close the counter and leave you in the middle of nowhere where most/nearly all "ryanair-central-airports" are, what's is next?
Now everybody (like you and the rest of the ryanair-fan-club-members) are fingerpointing to me and tells me the s**t (I appologize for the bad word behind):

"You just get what you payed for":yuk: :yuk:

But those bigmouth fingerpointer did'nt ask ME what I payed. I payed almoust 200 euros. And there were travellers on this flight who payed even more.
Really not worth to get a MINIMUM service ?:mad:
It's time for politicians not only to act but to react against a so called "airline":yuk: BEATING fundamental traveller rights with feet.
--------
stop flying RYR

Voeni

18th Mar 2006, 09:56

First of all, I am NOT a FR-fan, I've never flown with them and probably never will (for reasons stated below and for them not showing up in Switzerland as well).

For sure, there must be some compensation, as stated above with regard to current law, which is applicable for Ryanair as well - absolutely right.

I'm just wondering why people choose Ryanair and start complaining afterwards, although their business model and their frequent lack of customer service (once again, I've never flown them but following all the disucssions in here) is widely known. And everyone knows about the "ryanair-central-airports" as well!

Everyone is free to choose the airline he likes to. But hey - Ryanair is a low-cost airline, so even if you pay a relatively high fare (which, I presume, is still the lowest compared to others...) - Ryanair is still low-cost and has not at all changed the business model just for the passengers paying the high fare.

Airbus_a321: No need to get aggressive! This is a discussion forum in here, ok? ;-) And I'm almost sure, the 200 euros were still the cheapest fare compared to others...

NB. I'm not sure, but didn't the EU (or probably just Germany) introduced a law, stating that 10% of all seats must be available at the lowest published fare? So it would not be 0.xy%... Just not too sure about it...

Desert Diner

18th Mar 2006, 11:21

How much of FR's loads are repeat business ? Genuine question - I have no idea.
I suspect the majority are infrequent flyers who do not read boards such as these, and are thus unaware of Ryanair's umm... modus operandi.

To start off, I am not a fan of Ryanair, but at the same time I have been a repeat customer of theirs, simply because of price. Nothing else.

Whatever you think of FR, the majority of their passengers are repeats. Most use them for a quick holiday but there are some business people. 99% probably don't read the boards but at the same time they know what they pay for.

All they want is to go from point A to point B, which FR do by the way for the cheapest price possible, nothing else. If they don't want to buy water or a sandwich from FR they bring their own, most do that too.

Bottom line is, if you don't want to feel "victimized" by FR then you are free to get "victimized" by your own national carrier, wherever you are from.

No one really flies for the "service", only to get to the destination.

jammydonut

18th Mar 2006, 11:47

Give Mr O'Leary a break...he had an excellent day at Cheltenham yesterday with a winner or two...from his own horses...
and you cant say he does not spread his profits around, Ryanair sponsored a race with £40 odd thousand prize money on Wednesday;)

sky9

18th Mar 2006, 15:07

Interestingly in their Changes and Cancellations policy they clearly state "Your rights under EU Regulation 261/2004 are unaffected so in the case of denied boarding, flight cancellation or a delay in excess of two hours you will be provided with a written notice setting out the rules for compensation and assistance in line with such Regulation"
They (or their agents) don't however carry out what they say they should do and provide written notice of compensation, so get away with it.

Desert Diner

18th Mar 2006, 15:25

Keep in mind, they will probably find the biggest Jobsworths to man their compsensation desk.

Can't wait to read some of the horror stories I'm sure people will be posting in the near future:}

BOFH

18th Mar 2006, 23:49

Airbus 321.

Did you expect anything else? Come on, it's not a secret that Ryanair can disappoint - as can any airline. If you have to fly at short notice, you take the hit. The price of a flight to Aberdeen went up by 30 pounds in the time it took me to ask my girlfriend if she wanted to go - this was BA. A similar scenario in Germany put the price of an SFO ticket up by 200 Euros.

At least when our ABZ-LHR flight was cancelled, we were simply placed on a BMI flight with no fuss and plenty of apologies. But I must take issue with It's time for politicians not only to act but to react against a so called "airline" BEATING fundamental traveller rights with feet. because I live in a surreal world where people make their choices and accept the consequences. Since when did politicians actually improve things?

BOFH

Airbus Girl

19th Mar 2006, 19:19

Can we stop talking about cake, its making me feel hungry:)
How about we talk about EU law and the French ban on British beef?
As for low cost airlines, well I have seen flights come up as Cancelled on the screens, followed by the phone number or website to contact for a refund.
Very helpful, but if you want staff, customer service, hotels and rebooking on a later flight then I'll tell you a secret - don't book with RyanAir (or EasyJet, though I have to say, they are miles better than O'Leary's outfit)).