Military coup to over throw UK Government

[southside]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4789060.stm

I remember this, it was just at about the time I joined the Navy and very shortly afterwards he was thrown out at the General Election. It will be interesting to hear what the 2 Army chiefs had to do with it.

[JessTheDog]

Damn, I thought it was an invitation to join one! :}

[soddim]

I remember the subject was discussed within the military and it's a shame that it was just discussion.

Every democracy needs a few years of military rule from time to time to reinstate decent values.

Takes shelter behind TV - say what you like I'm not watching!

[SpotterFC]

I've heard rumours about this before, but it sounded a bit far fetched - taking it with a pinch of salt since its the BBC but maybe there was something to it. And we wonder why this Labour Government has emasculated us? Running scared perhaps?

[ZH875]

Have we got enough people, equipment, guns and ammunition to even think about a coup these days.

[southside]

Sadly I don't think we have....nor the military leadership to carry it off..

and if we did no doubt the bean counters would charge us for it or introduce a military coup chrage whereby we each lost 1/2 of our flying pay seeing as we now worked for each other...

[The Helpful Stacker]

There was a discussion about a military coup on arrse a while back, it was decided that unserviceabilities/overstretch mean that the RAF would have to use the BBMF, the RN would have to make use of HMS Belfast and the Army would have to stop off at the National Army Museum on the way to Westminster.

As long as it got rid of the current bunch of self-serving gits (all parties, not just Labour) I'd be happy laying siege to Downing St with a pick axe handle.

[Archimedes]

Interestingly, there are suggestions that the man who told Wilson about Mountbatten's plotting was...er... Mountbatten.

In the authorised biog of Wilson, Philip Ziegler (also authorised biographer of Mountbatten) gives some outline of what happened (at least in regard to the first alleged coup). Cecil King, of the Daily Mirror, had a meeting with Mountbatten in which Mountbatten got the distinct impression that King was advocating that he should lead a military coup to depose Wilson.

Mountbatten was sufficiently concerned at King's inferences to make a record of their conversation, which he agreed with King's deputy. He then went and told Wilson. Ziegler suggests that Wilson became rather confused as to what Mountbatten was up to and began to suspect Mountbatten.

It'll be interesting to see whether the programme clears this up or not.

[Cambridge Crash]

Last year I had an interesting conversation with a very senior - and retired - diplomat who stated that MRAF Lord Elworthy and Sir Solly Zuckerman were implicated and had proposed that Mountbatten would be be appointed post-coup as 'Lord Protector' or some such equally arcane title. Mountbatten, irrespective of other faults, did not agree and reported the matter to Wilson, but did not name those involved. He - the reired diplomat - was of the belief that the idea was simply discussed over a few post-prandial Cognacs at Brooke's or White's; and never amounted much more that an aspiration to rid the country of an ungoverning administration. How often do we come up with equally silly ideas when we have had a few drinks?
I look forward to watching the BBC docu-drama.
CC

[Roland Pulfrew]

Damn, I thought it was an invitation to join one! :}

Me to. Where do we sign up?:suspect: :E

[BEagle]

Just ask the chaps in the black Omega pulling up outside your window, Roly!

[allan907]

Remember being somewhat gobsmacked at the topic of conversation amongst the Rocks in the Mess at Catterick (RAF that is) in late 76. But 'nuff said.

[Art Field]

Sometime in early 70's, Dining In Night at large East Anglian base, Staish stood up for after dinner speech and came out with to all intents and purposes a call to be ready for a military coup. Can not remember much of what was said but audience somewhat stunned.

[Lou Scannon]

In 1975ish I was on the transport flight at Lyneham and can remember what appeared to be light hearted jokes about the possiblity of a military coup to get rid of Harold Wilson. Only later did I hear that there might have been some serious backers for this.

The general view at the time was that none of us wanted the people who were running the RAF to be given the job of running the country!

[JessTheDog]

Joking aside, it is inconceivable that the Armed Forces would instigate a coup. The tradition of loyalty to the Crown and pride in Service history is too ingrained.

A mass resignation is possible, such as along the lines of the Curragh "mutiny" (see below). It is possible that any repetition of the Iraq scenario (in Iran for example) would generate enough resignations in the Armed Forces to force the resignation of the government. However, for anything more "serious" the circumstances would have to be astonishing, such as an attempt to replace the constitutional monarchy with a presidency, a major and widespread institutional breach of human rights or the suspension of Parliament by the government. These are without modern precedent in the UK.

I don't believe the Mountbatten/Wilson conspiracy. The story of a drunken rant in Clubland that turned into a rumour is far more believable.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/easterrising/prelude/pr06.shtml

By March 1914, British government ministers appear to have been considering taking strong action to crush unionist resistance. Sir Arthur Paget, Commander-in-Chief of troops in Ireland, was summoned to London and instructed to move 800 men into the province to reinforce depots and arms stores there. Preparations for a possible rebellion in Ulster were also discussed. It was rumoured that unionist leaders would be arrested. On his return to the Curragh on 20th March, Paget summoned his brigadiers and informed them that active operations against Ulster were imminent. He indicated that officers with homes in Ulster would be permitted to be absent from duty without compromising their careers. Unwisely, he added that any others who were not prepared to carry out their duty were to say so and these would immediately be dismissed from the service. The brigadiers were to put these alternatives to their men and report back; 57 of the 70 officers consulted elected for dismissal. They were led by Brigadier General Herbert Gough who, like many of them, had Irish family connections.

The 57 officers were not actually guilty of ‘mutiny’; they had not disobeyed direct orders of any kind. Nonetheless, news of their resignations caused government alarm. If orders had existed for the repression of the Ulster unionists and the arrest of their leaders, they were at once withdrawn. Asquith claimed publicly that no such action had been contemplated and that the whole episode had resulted from an ‘honest misunderstanding’. The War Office stated that ministers had no future intention of using the army to enforce submission to the Home Rule Bill. This assurance may have been given without cabinet authority, as those responsible for issuing it were subsequently obliged to resign.

Overall, the episode greatly increased the confidence of Ulster unionists; they firmly believed that the government had intended to crush them but its plan had failed for lack of military support. Certainly thereafter ministers were convinced that they could not trust the army to quell opposition to home rule in the province. For Irish nationalists, the events merely confirmed their increasing doubts about Asquith’s real commitment to granting Irish self-government and about his willingness ever to grapple with unionist militancy.

[claude liardet]

Would-be plotters might be interested to read "How to Stage a Military Coup: Planning to Execution" by Ken Connor and David Hebditch (£12.53 from amazon). The postulated UK coup makes for a bit of a diversion, just not a very believable one!

[Roland Pulfrew]

Joking aside, it is inconceivable that the Armed Forces would instigate a coup. The tradition of loyalty to the Crown and pride in Service history is too ingrained.



JTD

Only one problem with your theory - as you say "loyalty to the Crown". No one was planning to over throw our Head of State, only the then prime minister. Many believed the then prime minister was a Soviet agent, and without wishing to re-ignite the TSR 2 debate, so was his minister of defence!!!!:mad:

[Conan the Librarian]

I think a lot will be written in the future about Mountbatten, or "Uncle Dickie" This is one cove whose name crops up all to readily.

We live history. This reply is part of it like any thoughts you might have. I wonder what might appear in 30 years or so, for our children will almost certainly treat it with the same frivolity that many posters here have done. This is not meant to take the rise from anyone, but just a reminder that the reality that we all have is based on perspective - and those perspectives change with time, fashion and a great many other things too.

Remember what you feel now - the annoyance, the grit, the reality and the truth. It will be spun in all sorts of directions for our children, legitimate or otherwise.

I do hope that someone is keeping track of Pprune as a record - a moving snapshot - of time. When we are all blowing bubbles, what record do we leave?

Right! That is the serious bit done. Now - what about the caption comp? Are you buggers going to do anything about it, or do I?

[JessTheDog]

JTD

Only one problem with your theory - as you say "loyalty to the Crown". No one was planning to over throw our Head of State, only the then prime minister. Many believed the then prime minister was a Soviet agent, and without wishing to re-ignite the TSR 2 debate, so was his minister of defence!!!!

The PM is appointed by the Sovereign and it is the prerogative of the Sovereign to remove the PM.

I really doubt that Harold Wilson was a Soviet agent. If he was, he must have been a fairly cr@p one - we kept our nuclear deterrent, stayed in NATO etc....

[Melchett01]

I really doubt that Harold Wilson was a Soviet agent. If he was, he must have been a fairly cr@p one - we kept our nuclear deterrent, stayed in NATO etc....

Don't remember any of this being a mere ankle-biter at the time, but surely if he had pulled out of NATO, dismantled the nuclear deterrent and hoisted the hammer and sickle over Dowining St, people might just have got a little suspcious?

I know if it was me, I'd have done everything I could to make things appear normal on the surface whilst leaking the high grade top govt level stuff on the quiet. With the access that Wilson would have had, it would have been imperative to ensure he stayed in post quietly screwing the country up rather than drawing attention to himself.

But it appears that history repeats itself, only now we have an American agent in Downing St:\

[BEagle]

I think that I'd sooner have been governed by Harold Wislon than by Uncle Dickie (:eek:) Mountbottom.....

[Green Meat]

Rather a sense of deja vu watching the footage of the security exercise at Heathrow. Mind you, the troops and light armour in the archive film do of course represent the full strength of the modern armed forces.

Sorry, couldn't resist the cheap shot :ooh:

[Fortyodd2]

Perhaps that's why Teflon Tone is keen on keeping most of the Armed Forces in other peoples countries for the foreseeable future..................


.........................Just a thought!!!!!!!

[LunchMonitor]

Doesnt matter where we are, we could all be home quick enough so long as the J and K fleets work together....

[Pontius Navigator]

The other character was General Sir Walter Walker, DSACEUR rtd, who wanted to set up a home defence corps.

The period was 1974 and there were cartoons of the day about this. Generally there was a hot bed of rumour.

There was also I recall a threatise on Coup d'etate. The main feature was a centralised system of power in the hands of a very few people. It was argued that the UK did not come within that criteria.

There was also a TV programme, something like the Government Inspector. One scene was a file of 'civil servants' coated, bowler hatted, briefcased, all deplaning from a Beverley at Carnaby or some such deserted airfield, all marching in step, snow on their boots. Get the drift?

Dennis was certainly a card carrying member of the Labour party. Dennis did his business as MOD in the 1st adminstration from 1964. He was Chancellor the the 2nd. I was flying Frank Judd, Navy Minister, one of Wilson's ministers the day Wilson resigned. It was obvious from the shock that he had no clue that Wilson was to go.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Having watched the programme I'm more convinced than ever that Wilson was under the infuence or control of another country. (Nothing changed much with the current incumbent - The wannabee emperor of europe.) The way everything fell into to place for his leadership of the party and then the election, just too many coincidences.
I wasn't sure about the so called plot but the programme certainly gave plenty of credence to the desireability of one!

I really doubt that Harold Wilson was a Soviet agent. If he was, he must have been a fairly cr@p one - we kept our nuclear deterrent, stayed in NATO etc....

Why take Britain out of NATO as head of government of one of the senior partners what a great spot to keep the WarPact upto date?
Be lucky
David

[LowObservable]

Wasn't Wilson somewhere around in 1946 when they had that cute idea of selling RR Nenes to our glorious ally Uncle Joe?
Anyway... it would have been only a case of Uncle Dickie doing to British democracy what he'd already done to everyone who worked on TSR.2 and a battleship-complement's-worth of nubile midshipmen...

[flipster]

Military coup?

The Military top brass can't run the military properly, let alone the country as well!

Don't forget that their Lordships seem to be 'politicians' too - so who is to say they would be any better than the current spineless shysters?

[JessTheDog]

I am really puzzled as to how Wilson could have been a Soviet agent. The idea of a spy occupying No 10, doing nothing of significant benefit on behalf of his paymasters and then resigning is simply not credible.

This would not be a matter of a Whitehall clerk passing on copies of protectively-marked documents - Wilson was the leader of a sovereign nation in a crucial relationship with the United States! He would have been prompted to take at least one decision of material strategic value to the Soviet Union before he went, and if he failed to toe the line he would have been exposed - causing great damage to the UK's political system.

It doesn't seem credible , comrades (oops).

[effortless]

At the time, all the talk in the press was of a possible left wing take over. Reds under, in, over and watching the bed were the nursery monsters. The interesting thing was that in the pubs of Pirbright etc., there was a lot of scuttlebutt the other way. About two years after Wison went, I remember also a dinner party with a fairly "staff" type saying that a right-wing coup had been very much more likely, no details of course. We just sat with our mouths open.

Scuttlebutt is just that but it is surprising how often it has the kernel of truth.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I am really puzzled as to how Wilson could have been a Soviet agent. The idea of a spy occupying No 10, doing nothing of significant benefit on behalf of his paymasters and then resigning is simply not credible.

Try TSR-2. P1154, HS 681 and the demoralisation near destruction of UK advanced aircraft industry for a start. Set us back until Tornado in reallity. A really effectiveagent of influence doesn't need to be overt. Being overt gets you caught. Just nudges of policy. But as a leader of a NATO country what information he had to disclose.
Be lucky
David

[Green Meat]

But then, AvGas, by the same token, wouldn't we have to surmise that Healey was also in the other camp?

[effortless]

Try TSR-2. P1154, HS 681 and the demoralisation near destruction of UK advanced aircraft industry for a start. Set us back until Tornado in reallity. A really effectiveagent of influence doesn't need to be overt. Being overt gets you caught. Just nudges of policy. But as a leader of a NATO country what information he had to disclose.
Be lucky
David

Yes well I always thought that that was because of the balance of payments problem and US pressure.

[allan907]

I see a lot of posts on this thread which rubbish the idea of a military coup. I suspect that the posters are relative youngsters who think today's thoughts. Believe me (and others who have posted in the same vein) there was some serious intent out there at the time (and probably the means and organisation to carry it out).

[Spartacan]

Many Moons ago - circa late 1970's - I had some long conversations with a relative who had been top Army intelligence brass in Germany. He had an intriguing nugget of gossip that Wilson had been paid £250,000 by the Chinese to resign. The curious bit was that apparently the money was routed theough the Czech Embassy in London. No explanation was given for the payment by my relative. Some years later the same story appeared in the Peter Simple Column in the Daily Telegraph. Odd?

I don't know what to make of the TV programme. Wilson was not a double twister but a triple twister.

I also heard that Wilson, along with Heath, was in the Communist party at Oxford or Cambridge. Anyone like to comment?

Whatever history may reveal about these 'politicians' their legacy seems to be that they have allowed Britain (I won't say 'Ukay') to be run by external forces.

The same continues today. I blame a political class emanating from Oxbridge that follows a political culture whereby you profess one policy and enact another - usually the opposite. We now have to deal with a country where the national culture has been traduced and power lies elsewhere.

Why?

[BenThere]

Bad things happen when too many good people stand by and keep their mouths shut.

[Klingon]

I see a lot of posts on this thread which rubbish the idea of a military coup. I suspect that the posters are relative youngsters who think today's thoughts. Believe me (and others who have posted in the same vein) there was some serious intent out there at the time (and probably the means and organisation to carry it out).
Well said allan907.:ok:
I was there as a young sprog, it was a different time, sentiment was running very high and, we, as an armed service were still to realise that Empire was over yet were still able, ready and familiar with the type of action needed to effect such a plot in the name of Q & E.
Perhaps Mountbattens wisdom was in putting the frighteners on Wilson in such a manner that he achieved regime change without a coup. When Wilson folded there wasn't anyone left in the Labour party of the late 70's that could muster much resistance against the following Conservative landslide.
History and the BBC will tell it the way they want rather than how it was!
To borrow an earlier maxim: If you remember the seventies you probably weren't there! :zzz:

[16 blades]

I am really puzzled as to how Wilson could have been a Soviet agent. The idea of a spy occupying No 10, doing nothing of significant benefit on behalf of his paymasters and then resigning is simply not credible.

How about rampant inflation and the systematic destruction of the economy, along with cementing the power of the Unions (far left in philosophy and undoubtedly under Soviet influence).

I can think of no better conditions to forment the birth of Communism - an emasculated middle class, no longer financially independent due to punitive taxation, mass control of Industry, and an economy in the toilet. Then - BINGO - along come our 'saviours' - the USSR.

If you're goint to invade a country, you want to soften up the defences first, don't you? Think about it. Sounds perfectly credible to me.

The main feature was a centralised system of power in the hands of a very few people. It was argued that the UK did not come within that criteria.

It does now. Always, ALWAYS, beware of the left.

16B

[effortless]

It does now. Always, ALWAYS, beware of the left.
16B

And where pray are they?:rolleyes:

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Wasn't Wilson somewhere around in 1946 when they had that cute idea of selling RR Nenes to our glorious ally Uncle Joe?

I can't tie Wilson into that debacle unless he was a low level oik. Pricipal offenders appear to have been Sir Stafford Cripps then president of board of trade and John Wilmot Minister of Supply
Sept 46 sold to USSR 10 RR Nenes and 10 RR Derwents:
Mar 47 20 Derwents and 15 Nenes
Total sold 30 Derwent Mk. V at £6050 each and 25 Nene 100s at £7,300 each. Total contract with spares for 12 months £255,175 15s 5d
It is estimated that over 100,000 illegal copies have been produced by USSR and satellites 1974 royalties due to Rolls Royce at approx £74M ( All figures from Project cancelled 2nd edition). Not a bad bit of business for a labour government trying to rebuild the country after the war. Or were they just naive?
Be lucky
David

[tornadoken]

In mid-46 UK was broke, cold and hungry. US was intending to be gone from Europe asap. Keynes had just organised a Loan from US/Canada, which required £ to become convertible 16/7/47. Valiant USSR had won our War for us and was our friend, willing to trade in not-$. Cripps, Pres. Board of Trade, ex-Ambassador in Moscow and very Left, was tasked by Cabinet to barter for Ukrainian grain: don't be too measly about it, said Foreign Sec. Bevin, ex-Trades Uion leader and unfriend of Commies. Whittle's funny back-to-front centrifugals were off the secret list because we had no enemy, so Cripps swapped them for food. Bevin got stroppy when he found out about it; Attlee told him to wind his neck in. We chose to skip the Nene generation (except for waif FAA) and its ultimate, Tay (the first one) to fund axial fighters and Medium Bombers. Long before LaGG/MiG with Klimov RD-45/VK.1 (aka Nene) appeared on scene, US was putting J47 axial in F-86 and we were trying to make things work with Avon and Sapphire.
Yes, USSR reversed Whittle without paying royalties. We maybe foresaw that. We were going to share a Continent with them and had no beef with them (Ha!).

[tornadoken]

There was nothing in the TV piece that was not in Smear! by Wilson's Press Sec Joe Haines (co-Deep Throat for Yes, Minister 1980s' TV political "comedy"). It's a fun conspiracy founded in his role as Pres. of the Board of Trade (after Cripps) in Attlee's Govt. trying to trade with, not fight USSR. He visited E.Europe about as frequently as Kissinger did for Nixon. That's what Ministers do. That's what Rumour Networks are for. Waste of TV space, though.

[TyroPicard]

Spartacan

My dad was at the same Oxford college as Wilson, same year - apparently the Communist Party had the best social scene, and practically everyone was a member!

Cheers, TP

[civobs]

just wondering if the queen would have to agree or be disposed of and how the military might avoid the inevitable consequences when legitimate government would be returned?

weren't rr engines also sold to china?

[LowObservable]

RR engines to China? Here's two of them:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/images/jh-7-FBC1_3.jpg

[Dogfish]

Does anyone really believe our current management could actually stage a military coup? The words piss-up and brewery spring to mind. Our Tone would probably survive anyway. To slighlty misquote an article in a paper this week 'After a nuclear holocaust all that would be left would be a few zillion cockroaches and Tony Blair. He would probably say ''it all went rather well''.'

[effortless]

Having had a little experience in the "hardened accommodation" business back in the seventies, I can assure you that there is plenty of provision for "necesary personel" in the event of nuclear war. The Rates officers etc. had space in hardened shelters but not many doctors did.

[tornadoken]

This is from (the doubtless suborned UK official) www.direct.gov.uk number10.gov.uk/output/page129.asp:
"Wilson surprised everyone when he resigned in March 1976, saying that he had lost interest in issues which had remained little-changed.Not long after Wilson's retirement, his mental deterioration from Alzheimer's disease began to be apparent. He rarely appeared in public after 1985 and died in 1995."
When do you suppose his wife might have detected the problem?
How many minutes might have been sold to TV schedulers for a story of a Cabinet Minister spending to form and nuclear-arm the Medium Bomber Force? Or one about a PM deploying WE177 thermonuclear Bombs, Lance nuclear SSMs, SSBNs, and starting their MIRV enhancement, Chevaline - to cost £1Bn? Guess of whom I speak.

[Pontius Navigator]

tornadoken wrote:

<<Or one about a PM deploying WE177 thermonuclear Bombs, Lance nuclear SSMs, SSBNs, and starting their MIRV enhancement, Chevaline - to cost £1Bn? Guess of whom I speak.>>

Not quite sure I understand your point? Are you saying Wilson did all these things or might have been ill and deployed them or what?

The WE177 pre-dated the first Wilson government and was lucky to survive the TSR2 cuts. The SSBN programme was also well advanced before Wilson first came to power.

Apart from the TSR2 we were all pretty amazed that our nuclear programmes continued unabated. Indeed they were enhanced as the C130, Buccaneer and Phantom programmes and the Jaguar strike ac were all Wilsonian decisions probably the Nimrod too. It was the Heath government that procured the Jaguar with part of the buy intended to act as an advance trainer rather than the Hawk.

Healey said he was the forces friend and certainly we had some very competent equipment programmes under the labour government.

[tornadoken]

Just that he bought/did not chop them. Not the actions of a red mole.