Night staff shortages at NERC? [Archive]

The Sad ATCO

13th Mar 2006, 18:18

This seems to be a reasonably regular occurence.

Does anyone have any experience of any other UK area unit closing sectors in this way? I ask because I've worked at a couple and I can't think that it has ever happened at them. I never think that the NOTAM concerning such closures is a particularly good advert for NATS.

250 kts

13th Mar 2006, 21:14

No other unit has cut the night staffing to the bone like LACC with a management which would rather close sectors than have a few minutes of delay during the day. Scandalous.:confused: :confused:

5milesbaby

13th Mar 2006, 23:43

Don't forget on several sectors or depending on the north bank validations, it only takes one person to be sick for the airspace to have to shut for at least part of the night anyhow, but management say they are willing to accept that loss.................

Lon More

14th Mar 2006, 03:21

Discussing this earlier; seems strange as the sectors get bandboxed. In the past trying to get CLN (after they'd switched the phones off) we ended up talking to DTY. The point was raised that according to the AIP service is provided 24/7.
Maybe those inconvenienced can make a claim in the courts?

Asda

14th Mar 2006, 05:56

But here we are on the edge, preparing for a grand new 'leap' forward with a brand new logo and everything, to demonstrate our leading position in Europe with our world class ATM systems.
Fine, but it makes me feel really shabby when as a 'leading' provider of ATM we have to close airspace at night. How on earth is that world class? Are we supposed to be proud of that? For whatever reason, it shouldn't happen. Does it happen anywhere else?
Isn't one of our 'destinations' to control a significant amount of European airspace, (but only during daylight hours)

Scott Voigt

18th Mar 2006, 17:13

I find it amazing that a couple of people being sick couild actually close airspace. If we had two of three people call in sick for the midnight shift, we would first hold over two controllers from the night watch for two hours to help out and keep the bandboxed (combined) sectors to the normal two midnight shift sectors (normally five or six sectors combined down to two in our facility per area). Then if you couldn't get anyone to come in for the midnight shift, would have the one person work for four hours by themselves with all the sectors bandboxed on the one and then institute flow if needed. Then call in two or the morning shift controllers to come in for two hours of overtime (we can't work our folks past 10 hours per shift.). To be able to work a midnight shift, you have to be fully certified in the area and be able to work all of the sectors...

Interesting stuff...

regards

Scott

PS. For the couple of you who do know me here <G>, I just underwent PRK eye surgery and have been away from the keyboard for a bit over a week due to blurred vision. My distant vision is still blurred but my near vision is improving and I can see for about 15 minutes at a time before the eyes start to dry out and need some rest... Trying to improve through bionics after age 50 <G> :ok:

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

18th Mar 2006, 17:29

<<would have the one person work for four hours by themselves >>

Does that include breaks, Scott? They're not allowed to work more than about 90 minutes on some sectors over here.. The ATC system over here creaks a bit through under-staffing.

Hope the sight soon recovers. 50? You wanna wait to you get over 60 and then watch the problems crop up!!

Take care...

Gonzo

18th Mar 2006, 19:20

Our hours seem to be more tightly regulated than yours Scott!

Hope the eyes recover soon.

Radar

18th Mar 2006, 20:07

while we're on the subject ... just a quick word of thanks to any of our colleagues from Brussels and Amsterdam ACC who may be reading this, for their co-operation while CLN has been closed. We (Maastricht) have been descending London TMA arrivals 210 or below at the boundary and handing them off directly to TC.

eyeinthesky

19th Mar 2006, 16:09

The requirement to staff sectors is for two people (one Tactical, one Planner) to be in position at all times. In order to provide legally-required 30-minute fatigue breaks every two hours during the night, there must be at least one spare person who has the same validation pairing. In this case, due to sickness, the third person only held a DTY validation and therefore when he was due to provide a break for the two combined CLN/DTY sector controllers (30 mins break each), the CLN sector had to be closed for one hour. Due to the difficulty of accurately controlling traffic flow to ensure there was nothing presenting for that hour, the decision was made to NOTAM CLN as closed from 2300 to 0530 and then allow traffic through when the dual valid controllers were in place. I don't know whether that last option was actually used or not or whether the traffic avoided CLN completely all night.

Lon More

19th Mar 2006, 17:00

closed from 2300 to 0530

Six and a half hours to cover, by my calculation, two and a half hours where the manning would not be legal. It sounds more like a long sleep to me.:confused:
PP roster planning. Partially validated staff should not be essential to operate a unit. Was there no enticement for someone else to cover the duty? Or is morale really that poor. It seems to be just the one unit that always suffers like this.

250 kts

19th Mar 2006, 17:11

No Lon-read the crucial part of the answer above that you have ignored-it was NOTAMED closed but traffic was allowed through when the 2 valid staff were there. The alternative is that the NOTAM has varios closing times on it and the routes become almost impossible to accurately portray on a FPL if an a/c is running late. Much better to do what they did and allow traffic through when possible.
It's still a far from perfect situation and the sooner we are adequately staffed at night again the better.

Lon More

19th Mar 2006, 17:19

250, sorry point taken, it was not very clear in the earlier post. Not a brilliant alternative for the adjacent units though trying to arrange their traffic.
Were other alternatives (KOK - DVR?) offered besides the obvious of via N.Sea?

250 kts

19th Mar 2006, 19:24

Lon. Not sure as I wasn't there. But the solution used gave the least disruption to the surrounding units. i.e. Assume Clacton is closed all night but then traffic could be routed through it on a purely tactical basis I guess on the back of a call from LACC or LACC doing the vectoring on contact. The last thing Maastricht want is to have to call LACC to see if the right 2 staff are there or more importantly traffic running late being refused access to the airspace because one of them is on a SRATCOH break.
Just for the record long sleeps are a thing of the past.:{ :{ We have 3 staff to man 2 positions with a maximum time in position of 2 hours. That equates to 2 hours in position and 1 hour on a break-all night, both nights. The exceptions are the West end who still have 4 for 2 and Lakes who have the same to accommodate the Oceanic traffic depending on where the tracks are. They are able to do 2 hours on 2 off if the traffic allows.

Lon More

19th Mar 2006, 20:27

250, been there, done it. Maastricht DECO sectors also run with 3 staff for two positions.Rortunately if a trainee was present it was only as a U/T, so it never came down to having to rely on him/her to keep the sectors open.

flowman

20th Mar 2006, 00:17

Terminal Control have closed a sector tonight for three hours due to staffing problems. It's becoming commonplace now.

Scott Voigt

20th Mar 2006, 03:16

By contract they aren't supposed to work us more than two hours on position without a break, but if they do all we can do is file a grienvance. There is also the bit in there that they can exceed that for operational necessity, and they they have to pay you for a missed meal break. Your work laws are MUCH better over there, but the job is still fun if left alone by the suits, which is becoming less and less likely these days...

regards

Scott

ukatco_535

20th Mar 2006, 06:30

Terminal Control have closed a sector tonight for three hours due to staffing problems. It's becoming commonplace now.

This was cuased by one of the controllers suffering food poisoning.

Closed sectors at TC are certainly not commonplace.

Radar

20th Mar 2006, 07:29

250
As far as accepting traffic when suitably qualified staff were on position this, if it happened, seems to depend on the crew on duty. Due to an oversight, an ACT was transmitted in error to CLN for an EGLL inbound. Immediate response was an irrate call from LACC demanding to know if we were aware of the NOTAM and its contents.

Lon More

20th Mar 2006, 08:51

Radar Or having explained everything to a pilot, rerouted him via BLUFA OTR (as was) then watching him be turned direct LAM, presumably through the CLN airspace.
535 I think what Flowman meant was that it is becoming commonplace for sectors to be closed at night, not a slur on TC. Unfortunately it is only the S. of the UK that seems to do it

BEXIL160

20th Mar 2006, 09:43

I don't think sector closures are a slur on any Operational Atc people.

They are the Sad evidence of an organisation that has routinely failed to plan ahead.

They are also symptomatic of an Organisation that does not understand the reality that ATC is not "business", it is a PUBLIC SERVICE and part of the National / International Transport Infrastructure.

Trying to run it like a certain UK Privatised Rail Infrastucture Company will eventually lead to the same results. See the (ongoing) RailTrack fiasco.

Rgds BEX

flower

20th Mar 2006, 09:58

Bexil,

You could have taken the words out of my mouth.
Hear Hear

Radar

20th Mar 2006, 12:56

BEXIL

Right on the money, mate. Unfortunately it's not only in the UK that the management consultant types are taking over the asylum. Comin' to a store near you ....... soon, as they say!

ukatco_535

20th Mar 2006, 15:33

RADAR,

I never took it as a slur on TC, was just setting the record straight.

Airspace closures are more likely at Swanwick, because the manpower is used in a slightly different way (the sectors are run differently) and as said by Bex et al above, the management/bean counters do not give the people on the shop floor the correct amount of manpower to comfortably provide a service.

The management seem content on running at a bare minimum - something has to give.

Personally, as an aside, I am in favour of giving people who do additional sectors extra money - there is no company law requirement to do more than one core sector, yet is is expected by management.

I am sure it is the same at LACC, but TC would not function with the number of staff it rosters daily if people did not hold extra validations.

The people that do so do not get paid any extra, but have to do extra bookwork and undergo exra LCE checks for no gain!!

Thread drift alert(!) but maybe people who do extra sectors should think about rescinding their validation if the management keep hacking away at manpower/pensions etc.

It is easy enough to justify that you do not think you are getting the currency required to give a safe service in an increasingly busy environment.

Just a thought

MancBoy

20th Mar 2006, 15:57

"Jack of all trades master of none" springs to mind if people do too many sectors. You have to be careful of spreading yourself too thin which also brings recency into the equation.

I think i'm right in that in the last pay deal this wasn't involved as the union didn't want to be seen to be encouraging people to do too much.

With the predicted traffic levels of this summer I'm glad of my two sectors and am gonna keep it that way as long as I can.

Back to the original topic, I was one of the DTY/CLN bods on the night in question and was pretty frustrated at not being able to take traffic on as the LAS said I was not allowed as the airspace was CLOSED. I wasn't even allowed to delegate it to TC East or Mastricht

flowman

20th Mar 2006, 19:40

535, I confirm what Lon More said, I meant that sector closures at night are becoming commonplace.
Apologies to all at TC for the unintended slur.
Crawls back under rock.

Scott Voigt

20th Mar 2006, 20:35

Interesting... I don't remember if I ever asked Bex or not when I was at NERC or another mate at TC... But here we operate (are validated) in between 5 and 7 sectors normally in the enroute environment. In Approach (TC) at the very slow places there will be two maybe three sectors and at the busy places they will be split up and a controller will normally be certified on between five and eight sectors.... Intersting difference...

regards

Scott

5milesbaby

20th Mar 2006, 21:45

Scott, our core sectors can be split, ie. Bex and my airspace is 2 validations (our minimum requirement) but could be split into 7 different radar positions (if they ever wrote the procedures!!), normally 5 during the summer. Some of our controllers hold a third validation, which can be from 2 to an extra 4 radar positions, again dependant on which bit is done.

Thread drift alert(!) but maybe people who do extra sectors should think about rescinding their validation if the management keep hacking away at manpower/pensions etc.
ukatco_535, its already happenning at Swanwick is quite a big way.........:eek:

ukatco_535

21st Mar 2006, 08:55

5miles

The way the traffic is going, it is inevitable if we want to reach the destination (can't remember which number) which states (paraphrased) "No NATS attributable SSE1 or SSE2s will be tolerated"

Not that I am into this management speak bo11ocks - do they think we go into work thinking "I fancy having an airmiss today?"

Scott -

as 5milesbaby states, (it is the same at TC and no doubt Manchester and Scottish) - being valid on one 'sector' actually means that you can be holding validations for a few positions (8 on TC South if being pedantic, 7 of which have had to have been used a fair bit recently).

At TC there are Core sectors and 'other' non core sectors, tho due to traffic more and more are becoming core. If you hold a validation on 1 core sector then you have fulfilled the minimum requirement (different from LACC because the way things are set up, see below).

That all depends as well on what you call a core sector - some call South or North a core sector, but in LACC speak, southwest is a core sector, as is southeast - it's semantics really!

Then the management want you to do another sector with multiple positions to be valid on!!