UK jobs market and where and how to find that first job? [Archive]

stevejames53

2nd May 2005, 09:16

Hi everyone,

I'm coming to the end of my university degree (Aero Eng) and will be beginning some form of flying training as soon as is practical after I finish.

I am thinking of applying to Riverside Flight Training centre on their ab-initio course. I've come to realise recently that whilst I used to think it was airline flying that I wanted to do all my life, I actually think that the only important thing is that I'm flying anything (within reason!!).

So if anyone can suggest any possible jobs for professional pilots, I'd be interested to hear a bit of variety. The only things I can really think of off the top of my head are things such as cargo, regional air taxi, island hopping, pleasure flights, flying the big bunny (if only it were still around!)...

Any info would be appreciated, and any suggestions (no matter how far fetched) are welcomed. It would be good to hear some of the lesser known flying jobs!

Cheers

Steve

Blinkz

2nd May 2005, 10:43

banner towing, glider tugging, parachute dropping, bush pilot, aid pilot(africa).

Can't think of any more :p not all of them can really be considered a career as such, but always fun. I'm an ex-glider pilot and as such I wanna do some towing at some point when i get my licences, just to see what its like :ok:

ABO944

2nd May 2005, 10:59

Sorry to barge in, but ...

Anyone know where I could learn to be a glider tug or parachute drop pilot ???? Somewhere in the south would be good!

Thanks

what who me?

2nd May 2005, 19:55

Somewhere in the south would be good!Is that the south of Uranus? Didn't know they do gliding there.

ABO944

2nd May 2005, 20:08

yeah, just south of the "Roids" !!!!

Southern England!!!! Gizza Job !:ok:

Lisa Simpson

3rd May 2005, 08:33

There are plenty of jobs at the moment where you gain a much better understanding of flight, people CRM and yourself, fuel and time management, weather prediction.

It is the first job your future Cheif Pilot probably had, and will not only give you more hours and experience but an intro to other Captains etc who currently fly for airlines. It won't pay much but then again with little or no experience in commercial aviation you have to start somewhere.

Plenty of schools will do a good FI course in about 6 weeks ish and with schools now recruiting you could be being payed to fly very soon. Not a 747 but if you do a good job then very rewarding, and heh you get payed to do it.

Think back 6-12 months when you were forking out cash you didn't have to fly a PA28 etc

Good luck

ps air taxi companies demand at least 700 hours total time

flaps to 60

13th Jun 2005, 17:11

Heathrow Hawk

Brilliant made me chuckle1

Wasn't ther something simmilar in the halcyon days of the late 80's when a monkley with a CPL could get a job in the back of Flight International. Ahhhh if only i started my trainning in 1987.

Lisa Simpson

26th Jul 2005, 20:20

Just thought I'd let you know of this website, I think it's a little better than www.ppjn.com, but I'll let you decide.

http://www.pilotcareercenter.com/PilotJobs.asp

LS:ok:

davecr

26th Jul 2005, 20:56

Unfortunately it's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY outdated info....

Almost never gets updated.

Lisa Simpson

27th Jul 2005, 10:13

Davecr, my recent experience of the website seems to suggest that it is more up-to-date than ppjn, but maybe you know of a better forum to help us in our job search. ;)

LS

737atlast

27th Jul 2005, 10:57

hi,

www.futureairlinepilot.com Some good stuff on there on jobs and also interview preperation.

Job stuff can be bit outdated but most is good.

enjoy

737atlast

b737-4

27th Jul 2005, 15:20

I would have to agree davecr on this one, the site seems to be constantley out of date.!!

Özcan

25th Sep 2005, 17:08

Hello!

I just met to 2 guys i knew a while back who went to get their training done, and not very surprisingly none of them could get employed during a year after their training without any typeratings, one of them got this idea that they should start driving taxi an hour or 2 a day from the airport in stockholm(arlanda) and at the smaller fields where alot of smaller airlines had their routes and also around the airline headquarters, they got in contact with pilots/airline-people daily from all over the world and they both got jobs in only a few months after starting this way of interacting with people in the business. So i give this little hint to all of you who have tried everything to be able to fly. I'm sure it might sound a little bit intricate of how driving taxi could help your career but it's always worth a shot! if you drive it a few hours a day and keep sending CVs at the same time also you can make some cash at the same time :D

I'm only 17 atm and working on my PPL so i still have some time left but i will definately use this as a job on the side while looking for somewhere to build time

/özcan

Mister Geezer

25th Sep 2005, 18:17

Even better tip would be to get a job with an airline itself if you can't get a Flight Deck position with them.

Old King Coal

25th Sep 2005, 21:53

Mister Geezer - Imho, getting a job within an airline, in anything other than the job you specifically want (i.e. piloting), can (potentially) be a very bad idea.

And just why do I say this? Well, because in such circumstances you'll be a 'hostage to fortune', i.e. you'll work your balls off, in a desperate hope that your airline's management will reward you by giving you that 'lucky break' into the flying career you so desire.

But very (very) few airline management are 'enlightened' enough to take a bloke that's doing a conscientious job in one department and move that person into another department - for the sole benefit of the employee.

Moreover, imho, what an airline is more likely to do is to keep one hanging-on, on the basis that this will extract the maximum enthusiasm (work) from you, with the least cost to themselves – and one can’t fail to see the irony the wannabes position. I.e. that in ones endeavour to show how enthusiastic and deserving one is of a flying job, the less inclined your management will be to move / loose you from a job that job that you’re doing so well.

That said, whilst there are (rare) occurrences of this departmental trade, very few airlines properly reward the loyalty & dedication of their staff !

I speak from bitter experience.

ROSCO328

26th Sep 2005, 09:30

Anyone thought about being a Dispatcher for a handling agent??I was for 7 years whist training and for me was a perfect place to be as got to see alot, learn alot and make excellent friends/contacts whist still training. Just a thought :O

Snigs

26th Sep 2005, 09:32

Ellie, is that you???? :) ;)

Airist

26th Sep 2005, 10:41

OKC, yes, that's the pessimistic view. It could happen. But the flip side of that is that you could equally well end up making a great impression, then having the right conversation with the right person at the right time... Provided you don't walk into the Other job announcing loudly that you don't want to be there, despise all ground jobs and Just- wanna-fly, then start filling in pilot applications on the computer on Day 1 (as an acquaintance of mine did! --- and even he got away with it and is now an FO with the company!) ... In my experience, if you have the right attitude, are prepared to keep your karma good by giving a decent amount of time to the Other job and doing it the best you can -- and keep your lip as zipped as poss about wanting to fly -- it can work for you.
I have four friends who got into flying that way. As did I.

parkfell

26th Sep 2005, 10:57

Old King Coal - have to agree with Airist. Get your foot in the door and certainly with the smaller operators [not BA] you are likely to succeed provided your CRM skills etc are up to the mark. Better the devil they know....... comes into it.
Two of our engineers did just that.
:cool:

deltic

24th Jan 2006, 09:49

I just wondered if anyone had done any research on the figures regarding pilot employment in terms of the following:

(a) How many (F)ATPLs have been issued by the CAA in each year over the past five years?

(b) How many (F)ATPLs have been withdrawn by the CAA in each year over the last five years (age, medical related)

(c) What are the total number of CPLs and ATPLs in the UK?

(d) What is the total number of airline jobs within the UK?

(e) How many pilots gain there first airline job each year?

(f) How many military pilots are leaving the services each year?

I fairly sure this data would be vaible for other professions, such as medicine, dentistry, architecture, etc. My fear is that they is a huge over supply of pilots in this country.

Deltic

Flashdance9

24th Jan 2006, 13:09

The numbers are huge. I think they were published here before- try search?

When people talk about a pilot shortage in the future; it will be a shortage of experienced pilots and captains not low hour graduates.

My opinion on this subject is that the industry will be flooded with low hour inexperienced pilots. With a huge number going for such few places! Especially with all the marketing hype from FTO’s. It must mean that many are going to be left disappointed.

The question I want to ask is will new pilot graduates be of the highest quality?

Natural selection will weed out those of poor quality!

deltic

24th Jan 2006, 15:32

Well of course we all know in this industry, one advert in Flight constitutes a pilot shortage!

Akuji

31st Jan 2006, 17:06

Hi All!

I was just curious on the types of jobs available after completing an integrated course. I mean any other types of jobs other then working for a big airline compnay.

blueplume

31st Jan 2006, 17:29

Well, let's see: McDonald's, Tesco et.al., **** shovelling, bus driving, travelling salesman (by road), security guard, cabin crew...........

Oh, you mean airlines other than "big" airlines? Lots of charter operators in the world but you got to get off your arse and stop wasting trees. No offence but who really needs to ask such a question? :}

It doesn't matter in the end whether you do an integrated (=expensive) or any other course, if you show initiative and prove you're the right person you'll get the job.

Grrrr, one sector too many today.

Akuji

31st Jan 2006, 18:21

I think you didn't understand what i meant, I mean jobs such as working for a private airlines an so on, working in Africa as a safari pilot, etc, etc

Pilot Pete

31st Jan 2006, 18:55

Akuji

I think he did understand.....

His comment No offence but who really needs to ask such a question? really is true. If you don't know what possible employment opportunities there are after your 'integrated' course, then it does beg the question what on earth were you doing spending so much money with so little idea of your prospects once qualified?

Anyhow, good luck.

PP

ps. try doing a search using something like Google and the words 'pilot jobs' :)

theWings

1st Feb 2006, 14:24

Hey give the fella a break!

Don't underestimate the power of marketing: if the Posh Flying School has done the usual comprehensive job on Akuji and raised his expectation to the point he hasn't expected to think about anything other than a 'big airline compnay', then this is just the sort of question he's now going to be asking. At least he's started asking. There are many who can't/won't until they are no longer current/solvent/motivated etc etc.

Akuji, blueflame is right, though, you can get many, many pointers around here, but you'll need to get out there and meet people, shake hands etc. It's great fun and it WILL work if you do it right.

Good Luck, mate

Pilot Pete

1st Feb 2006, 16:24

There are many who can't/won't until they are no longer current/solvent/motivated etc etc.

This is surely the lesson that EVERYONE contemplating entering training to become a commercial pilot should take from this thread. I have nothing against the original poster of this question and indeed wish him well, BUT, it raises a couple of questions about suitability for the job in my mind;

Firstly, someone who spends about £70k on an integrated course without looking at what opportunities it will open to them is taking a huge un-informed leap of faith. Secondly, someone who isn't able to find all the available opportunities (which, let's face it, are pretty limited) is showing a distinct lack of resourcefulness.

This is a generalised comment and not aimed specifically at the original poster; airlines require a certain amount of flying ability from their applicants, but more a suitable set of personal attributes. Wannabes would do well to research these as well as what school to train at, as it could save them even more money than just school 'A' over school 'B'...

Once again, good luck.

PP

ps The Google search comment was NOT meant to be tongue in cheek..try it!

A320rider

1st Feb 2006, 21:26

you can become a PPRUNE moderator,;)

sum1

5th Feb 2006, 12:31

Hello all, Help/Advice please....

I am looking at the possibility of converting an ICAO cpl to JAA cpl for myself.

I have used the search function as this topic has been covered before.....

so far I have established an approximation of the costs and what is involved in doing the conversion...
basically....
- 14 ATPL exams
- cpl flight check - single engine aircraft- to satisfactory standard of ato
- 15 hours for IR - 10 can be in sim
(I have passport to live and work in EU)

feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I do realise there are likely to be extra sundry costs on top of this, but before going too far into detail....

What I really would like to know, and can't seem to get a realistic idea from reading hundreds of pages on PPRUNE is...what is the job market in the UK really like?

I have Australian and New Zealand CPL, MEIR, approx 1600 hours by time I get there, 200ish Turbine (C208), 250ish multi (PA31) (projecting hours ahead a little as I am not leaving to go there right yet and still logging hours at present job). The majority of my time is in Northern Australia charter and scenic operations.

I have read posts regarding 300 hour pilots looking for jet jobs, and also some with 3000 hours that can't get a job. Also a lot do with buying type ratings....not so keen on that, definitely can't afford it. It is not clear on many airline websites what they require. They all say to apply in writing, or send a cv or fill in online application form, but they don't state what hour requirements they prefer. Wouldn't it really waste their time if people with well below their minimums clogged the recruitment department,or is a bare fATPL the minimum?

All i am really after is some more info to weigh up in the 'is it worth it?' question. It is quite a big move to spend that sort of money on conversions if there is no real prospect of employment. Not expecting long haul BA job or an A380 test pilot job, just want to know what to expect with the time I have. Maybe it is the case that this thread is better in the wannabes section! :confused: After 3 years of this kind of work I am definitely keen on doing something different and seeing more of that part of the world in the process.

The more I find out the more questions I will likely have... be good to hear from some that have already done the same thing.

Thanks in advance

Akuji

5th Feb 2006, 12:41

So what companies have you looked into? to wok for in the future, as they may give you guidance on what process to best follow really

sum1

6th Feb 2006, 10:42

Looked at many company websites throughout the UK. Piston, turbo prop and jets. Only very few have minimum hours to apply, but not so sure if they go down to those mins when hiring. Was thinking it is not such a good idea to be contacting these companies before even converting the license yet, as they would have plenty of applicants already qualified and would not be interested until I have the license they require. Just trying to establish what level operator would I have a realistic chance of securing a job at in the present market?

sum1

19th Feb 2006, 12:56

To the top..... any opinions at all?

Artificial Horizon

19th Feb 2006, 16:08

Sum, You are quite right in what you would need to do for a conversion of your licence. You need to sit all 14 ground school exams plus the flying for the CPL + Test then the flying for the IR + Test.The reason you are not getting many replys is because no one really has the answer. I came to the UK six years ago with a nice shiney NZ CPL with about 300 hours. Since then I have converted to a JAA ATPL worked as a flying instructor for 2 years, flown Turboprops all over Europe for 2 years before finally getting my dream job with British Airways. Now with over 3000 hours and a lot of great experiences I have been very very lucky. I have not had to pay for any type ratings along the way and have never been out of work. The problem is I know other Kiwi's and Aussies who have come over and converted then been unable to get the first job!! It is a pure gamble as to what happens. The best advice I can give is that if you are willing to take the gamble then you just simply have to come and give it a go. The market here at the moment is very good with recruitment humming along nicely. With your hours you will be ahead of all the 300 hour pilots looking for the first job and I would think you will have a good chance at a job, maybe!! Don't forget though that it will take you a full year to have you licence converted and by then the whole market may have slowed, especially if things like Bird Flu, conflict with Iran, continuing high oil prices or a fall in the UK economy happen. Of course it could quite easily go the other way and my boom for another few years!! I know that at BA recruitment is expected to continue for at least the next year. Generally most airlines here will consider you if you have a CPL with minimum hours, so as I say you are in good position with your hours. Hope this helps, feel free to PM me if you want any more info.

A320rider

19th Feb 2006, 19:14

stay away from the JAR system,the market is bad in europe, ...

get yourself a type on MD11, or B727 -767, and apply in asia!with your hours, you will get a job.
keep in mind, that airlines dont have the money to train you .

Fair_Weather_Flyer

20th Feb 2006, 06:56

With the hours you have, I'd bet that you'd get a turboprop command in less than 18 months. However, the conversion process is not as simple as it sounds on paper. I've been there and done that! Many converters underestimate the difficulty of the process. The ATPL theory is an abstract excercise in answering odd and verbose questions where your real world experience will count for little. As far as as the flying goes, expect to spend big money. 15hrs is not realistic for the IR even if you have been flying a lot of IFR. Expect to fly 20hrs at the minimum and possibly 30hrs. The CPL is a killer if you've not flown VFR in UK airspace. It takes a while to get used to the radio work and airspace. Expect to fly 10-20hrs. At insane, UK prices this means a serious amount of money. If I've not put you off then I wish you luck.

5 RINGS

20th Feb 2006, 08:09

Hello there!

Sorry but I disagree with Fair Weather Flyer.

JAR conversion is not a piece of cake, but coming in the UK with a canadian licence, I managed to convert my CPL in less than 5 hrs (+ skill test), and then was ready to take up the IR test at the end of the mandatory 15 hrs (Finally took it at 20 hrs due to weather + A/C troubles).

The whole process cost me 20000 EUR all inclusive (CAA, VAT, living expenses...).

As far as I could see, FAA guys seemed to struggle a bit more.

Best of luck.

5 Rings

fullrich

20th Feb 2006, 08:30

Converting is not cheap. The CPL conversion is training to requirement and even though you may be a great pilot, you will have to adjust to the rules and regs of the school and the airspace and I would say a minimum of 10 hours required here. Alot of it really dpends on the school you go to, some may have you ready in 5 hours but my experience was they want your money and will not be seen to encourage the conversion route as a cheap option.

Jimmy The Big Greek

20th Feb 2006, 16:10

I read a lot about the U.K IR skills test here on pprune and I still don't understand why the UK IR is more difficult than the FAA IR.

I have done both the FAA IR and FAA ATPL skills tests and I can not imagine that the U.K IR should be much more difficult.

I did unusual attidues under the hood, airways, NDB holdings, ILS, localizer, VOR etc and the finale was NDB holding with NDB approach with single engine, partial panel, manual gear extesion. (This was for the ATP checkride)

How much more difficult can the UK IR be???????

hazehoe

20th Feb 2006, 18:48

"How much more difficult can the UK IR be???????"

The emphasis is in a different area,you will find that UK examiners really test on anything to do with NDB's ,QDM/QDR, ever heard of a 30° gate,extended procedure,fail if more than 5° of a QDM ? Even though some of it is in the US PTS, in my experience the testing on these subjects is not as rigorous as with the CAA. I did both tests myself and the above is the biggest difference in my opinion.Keep in mind that the discretion of the examiner is different as well. If you fly something that looks like a race track(in the US) in the hold that would do for that portian of the test,most examiners that i encounterd after signing of students for a IR test in the US treat the NDB work as the stepchild of aviation.Lets say you track a QDM on your test in the UK(enroute)go of more than 5° in XW conditions and fail to maintain the inbound QDM(again 5°) on a approach with for example coastel effect trying to mess you up, you fail the compleet test and wont walk away with a partial pass.In the US there is fail or pass. In practical terms,in the US the examiner will let you do some NDB work on the retake(even though he has the authority to do the whole test again),in the UK the examiner HAS to do the whole IR again as if it was a initial test. Yes the UK IR is a bigger hurdle than the US IR.

Cheers

Fair_Weather_Flyer

20th Feb 2006, 19:28

I'd say the main difference between the JAA and NDB stuff is simply the tolerances. The FAA gives you 10 degrees leeway but the JAA only gives 5 degrees. That is three or four times as hard. Being able to do that with any consistency is hard no matter what your experience. In my case I would say it depended more on luck than judgement. NDB's are not precision approaches but the JAA does not seem to have worked that one out. I would say that Hazenhoe is exagerating just how brutal the CAA examiners are. The RMI clearly had some kind of a problem on my test and the examiner cut me some slack. Of course it does depend on the examiner.

The JAA also places emphasis on route flying. This is not difficult but makes the training much more time consuming. Overall I wouldn't say that the JAA stuff is any more difficult. I've seen one individual struggling to convert JAA to FAA. The FAA are as anal about partial panel stuff as the JAA are about NDB's. The sad thing is that despite paying a fortune to convert to JAA, I don't think that my instrument flying has been improved by the conversion process. It was mostly just test BS.

zakpeegoodus

21st Feb 2006, 11:50

I managed to convert my CPL in less than 5 hrs (+ skill test), and then was ready to take up the IR test at the end of the mandatory 15 hrs (Finally took it at 20 hrs due to weather + A/C troubles).
The whole process cost me 20000 EUR all inclusive (CAA, VAT, living expenses...).

5 RINGS,

Could you please break down your costs a in a little more detail…
20,000 ERU seems excessive for that amount of flying, even adding in the exam fees…Not that I doubt you, I am just wondering where the money was spent..

www.waaviationcollege.com.au is quoting $3,300 Australian dollars for theory ( plus 60 pounds to sit each exam) and around $9,000Aust for the flying part of it.

-I am in a similar boat to sum 1 – good post mate!

5 RINGS

21st Feb 2006, 12:02

Theory: 1500ish EUR (+14 exam fees: 1150 EUR)
Flight training including MCC: 14000ish EUR
Testing fees: 1600 EUR
Licensing: 450 EUR

and obviously my previous post was a bit optimistic...

welliewanger

1st Mar 2006, 12:04

Hi everyone!
There are so many people with so much advice on "What you need to do to get a job once you've got the fATPL". It seems to me that any / all of this advice is relevant. I wonder WHAT NOT TO DO. What is it that puts CVs at the bottom of the pile? Poorly written? Trained in the wrong country? Did too much of the wrong sort of flying?

Thanks for your input.

teto

1st Mar 2006, 15:28

there are so many ways to get hired...and even more to not get hired!..what i mean is of course u are less likely to get ur cv on top of the others if its badly presented and doesnt reflect a good image, but i think there are many other things which are more important than spending 1000000 hrs preparing a cv...an example is to bring it personally to the company if u get the chance...anyway i would say that definetly u should think about what to do to get hired and stick to it sooner or later something will come out

rotatrim

1st Mar 2006, 15:39

Get to the interview stage and have to admit that you don't actually have a current IR or an MCC.

pipergirl

1st Mar 2006, 15:39

I wouldn't agree about going in and handing a CV in personally. I think that is a huge no,no...It just gives the wrong impression especially when unannounced.
A well presented CV is essential and once you put in the time initially, alll you have to do is update it as you go along.
I have seen a shocking amount of badly written CVs and no matter the experience of the candidate, it really reflects quite badly on the individual.
Make sure your CV is clear, concise and to the point..and just use common sense.
I saw a CV once that a backdrop of a runway on an approach and it looked terrible...oh yes, one important point (it may sound tedious)...when you write an email address on a CV don't put something like [email protected] or [email protected] an email address with ur proper name on it.

Canada Goose

1st Mar 2006, 16:26

Pipergirl ............ where did you get my e-mail address from ?? ;-)

Nice one !!

:p

pipergirl

1st Mar 2006, 16:29

i have my ways ;)

flz

1st Mar 2006, 22:45

Hey Guys & Girls
I am a Caravan Pilot & I would like any info at all about the UN flying Caravans, or a website I could look at, I have tried but to no avail, If you could help me that would be so much appreciated thankyou

Happy Landings:)

EGBKFLYER

2nd Mar 2006, 10:27

My biggest rant about what not to do:

STOP ASSUMING THAT AIRLINES ARE DIFFERENT TO OTHER COMPANIES!

Would you be more likely to get a job with BP by giving them a CV personally at Head Office?
If I knew the Head of Finance at Unilever, would I get a job more easily?
If I rang HR at Lehman Brothers every week, would I be first choice for interview?

I doubt any of that would work. Why not? Because companies have policies and plans for recruitment, minimum requirements and procedures. Airlines are no different. Less organised than some on occasion I grant you, but generally no different.

Look at how an airline does business, figure out what its plans might be, use your network to find out about recruitment policies and approaches and only apply to those where you have a realistic chance. Scatter-gunning CVs to everyone in the vain hope they will make an exception for you is a waste of time.

I've done non-airline recruitment in the past and been on the receiving end of applications that just don't fit with what I asked for. They go straight in the bin I'm afraid.

Right - feel better now...:D

Seaweed Knees

2nd Mar 2006, 17:39

................

Flying Mechanic

2nd Mar 2006, 23:20

Knocking on doors does work! I am now on my fourth job and everyjob I gained so far(including this one which is on a Biz Jet)I knocked on door. On my second job I ended up being Chief Pilot. Make sure you send a one page CV with a short cover letter, faxing is good as well as it will end up on CP's desk( and thus it will get noticed).Try and phone the Chief Pilot, and be able to gauge if he busy or not, if he is try another time. Its a lottery/gamble out there for getting jobs. I got my CPL is 96 and never got a fulltime flying job until 99, so never give up and keep yourself current. Thats my pennies worth.

EGBKFLYER

3rd Mar 2006, 08:36

Seaweed Knees - hope you have prepared yourself for the zillion PMs which will now ask which parachuting centre you work at si they can hand deliver a CV!:D

scroggs

3rd Mar 2006, 11:55

Check this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65343) for CV advice. You'll find more within this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649).

There are many ways of skinning this cat. Personal contact can work well with small companies, but it's not appropriate with big companies. However, getting to know pilots in big companies can be a way of getting your CV to the top of the pile - if the company still accepts CVs. Many don't, and will only accept applications via an online form. Nevertheless, personal recommendations can still help.

Scroggs

A320rider

4th Mar 2006, 15:39

so you mean you have to work for free, to get a paid job?.
tell me, who is going to employ you, if you can afford to fly for free.

and who can fly for free for 2-3 years, when you have kids at home!.

be honest with what you say, this market can not go any longer!

as for jet or turbine,it does not really matter what you chose, there is simply no job( I mean not a lot of job) on this market as long airlines and government don't regularize this market for us. sending CV, knocking at the door can or can not work... you have to try all techniques.

it is why we see companies like eaglejet making fun of us!:yuk:because this aviation market is a joke.

RYR-738-JOCKEY

4th Mar 2006, 16:25

I have sent thousands of CVs without getting a single interview. I did that for 5 years till I finally concluded it wouldn't work. What I needed was a couple of minutes of attention from the guy in charge of recruitment at a specific company. And that's it. I gathered as much info about the company, spoke with a guy I know already hired by that company and finally made the call. I hadn't even applied nor sent them my CV because I didn't think I had a chance. But I got hired.
What I've learnt from this is that thousands of CV's cannot compete with a phone call to the right guy. If everybody sends as many CVs as myself, just imagine how many CVs a company has to go through. They will have to hire extra personell just to read them all. Not gonna happen. People who get hired has one thing in common, they have all managed to stand out of the crowd, and I have heard many stories common to my own. Actually I believe that not applying and not sending CVs, but calling and showing up in person is the way to land a job.

newbie008

8th Mar 2006, 11:49

How many people on here hold a fatpl and dont have a job? Im just getting worried by the amount of people with this license who struggle to find work. How much have people spent in getting these too, i know the average is £30-£40k. A friend got a sponsorship with an airline - im just wondering if this may help me somewhat in getting a job if i decide to go ahead and attempt to get the license

RVR800

9th Mar 2006, 14:12

Just look for posts by A320rider

A320rider

9th Mar 2006, 14:22

you are right, look at my posts.I have spent over 80'000 euro with no job.
and most of my friends, have no job.

Europe count over 15000 unemployed pilots.
wait a few years and keep an eye on aviation.why to rush???worry to miss the train.

what you will miss is a normal life, with house, wife, and money!

many people do not belive me, or think I am a troll. But at the end , who is the troll with a frozen ATP, no money and NO JOB???

If I knew this forum years ago, I would not have started my training, But I would have applies in the airlines with 0 hour.

d2k73

9th Mar 2006, 15:09

Newbie, take no heed of A320s post! Just because he has no Job with an airline right now doesn't mean he will never get one, although a positive and optimistic attitude could do wonders for him!

Have a look at this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=214174

With hard work & determination you have as much of a shot as anyone else with a fatpl, althought don't expect to finish training and walk straight onto the flight deck of a shiney new a320, like some have done, it will lead to dissapointment!

ultimatepro63

9th Mar 2006, 15:23

15000 un employed pilots :eek: :oh: i cant believe it

i dont want to start a argument but sounds like its all about luck nowadays

potkettleblack

9th Mar 2006, 16:05

If you have inside contacts (preferably skippers) and/or are prepared to do the hard yards and develop a network ie: get out and meet professional pilots, join flying clubs and buy beers etc then the process could be a lot easier. Many many many jobs go unadvertised and whilst it is tempting to sit around playing on pprune and firing off a thousand cv's whilst it is raining outside you might just strike it lucky. Its one approach but not necessarily one that will give you the best chances of securing a job. Of course there are no guarantees in this game either so caveat emptor.

turbolager

9th Mar 2006, 23:20

flz the UN doesnt fly anything, its all contractors. johannesburg airport would be a good place to start, maybe ask around the african forum here on the prune. US company Air Serve (cant remember the address) are a UN contractor using caravans (and other types).

Hollywood316

10th Mar 2006, 08:21

5 Rings,Hello mate,

I'm in a similar situation you've been in. I have my Canadian commercial license without multi/IR. Currently reside in leeds doing ATPL theory through bristol ground school. I plan on returning to Canada to complete my multi/IR and immediately return to do my commercial /multi ride, then 15 hours and IR ride. The question I have is: Which flight school in Canada did you go to? Which school in the UK did you convert yourlicense with, including theory? Are there many differences between instructional/examination standards in the UK compared to Canada.

Any advise would be a great help!

A320rider

10th Mar 2006, 17:46

15000 unemployed pilot for the 25 countries of Europe.
I know, it is a lot, but sadly it is true.I think it is more...

3000-4000 for france
same for italy
2000 portugal
3000 germany
2000 austria

etc,...

most of these pilots have a CPL with 250h, IR, MCC,...
it is a lottery.

mcgoo

10th Mar 2006, 18:06

15000 unemployed pilot for the 25 countries of Europe.

3000-4000 for france
same for italy
2000 portugal
3000 germany
2000 austria
etc,...

.

excellent, totalling your figures 13,000-15000 for france, italy, portugal, germany and austria, that is the total unemployed figure reached in 5 out the 25 countries, does that mean the other 20 countries have no unemployed pilots.

thats excellent news!

smokin_rivet

10th Mar 2006, 21:16

It really sucks for you 250 hr guys. Its not much different anywhere else. What do you think the options are for someone with 2500TT 125 MPIC 0 turbine in say...the UK?

Batfink58

10th Mar 2006, 22:49

Guys,
I'm really starting to get doubts. It's taken me a few years of hard thinking and rationalisation to convince myself that I should take the plunge and start the training. As much as I would love to fly for a living, I am really starting to wonder now, every where I look I hear the same sad tale....no jobs, years of searching, tried everything, broke and on the verge of bankruptcy, paying for TR's, still no job, no hope, surplus of pilots..... etc etc etc

Should I just forget dreaming and stick to what I know, wife, house, reasonable job, average money, comfortable etc.
I'm starting to panic, really don't know what to do, should I risk my families comfortable life for the sake of fulfilling a dream which could ruin me if it does not come off, for me its such a big gamble. I just don't know what to do....:confused:
It so sad that this wonderful industry has turned in to what it has. So So sad.

Sorry, I know I haven't really contributed, I just needed to express what I am feeling right now.

Jumbo744

10th Mar 2006, 23:06

yes batfink58 me too, I'm thinking the same thing. I'm doubting if I should go on and pay for a training or forget about it. It's easier for me since I'm just 22 and have no wife/childs. I have found 2 solutions:

1-) I try to join the Air Force (Canada) and sign a 7 years contract.
2-) I get an IT job with my diploma (Network Administrator), do my Private Licence, and if I really love flying, then I take a loan and pursue my formation.

On the other hand, my optimistic brother who is an F/O on the A320 tells me that this is the perfect time to be a pilot as the industry is picking up....

:confused:

Send Clowns

11th Mar 2006, 00:23

every where I look I hear the same sad tale....no jobs, years of searching, tried everything, broke and on the verge of bankruptcy, paying for TR's, still no job, no hope, surplus of pilotsWhere have you been looking? Have you actually investigated the industry? The reason I ask is that I have been heavily involved in flight training, and your picture bears no relation to what I see! I see people everywhere getting jobs, a lack of pilots in certain areas, those that require more than the basic frozen ATPL such as single-crew work and instructing. These problems occur because those pilots are getting jobs elsewhere.

For a start get your grammar up to scratch, as your job applications scattered with errors such as the "every where", "families" and "in to" will just be binned. It might seem pedantic here, but if you don't know that those three items were incorrect in your post then you need to work on that. To be a pilot you do need to pay attention to detail, and the first indication a potential employer sees of that is in the covering letter to your CV.

Then start looking into what you want out of the job, and if like A320 then it is just the prestige of a "glamorous" jet job then don't bother. It isn't glamorous, and it isn't necessarily where you'll end up. In my opinion it isn't the best flying, I don't think it would satisfy the love of flying that made me invest the time, money and effort in getting here.

Jumbo

The market is further ahead this side of the Atlantic, at least in the UK.

smokin_rivet

11th Mar 2006, 02:51

I’m glad to hear that things are going well in the UK. I am hoping to move across the pond within the next few months and will be excited to get a chance to see the country from the air. With any luck I will be getting paid to do it. As of yet, I have had very poor responses from the Air Operators that I have contacted, but I’m sure that the list I have from ‘pilotcareercenter’ is not representative. I’m sure I’ll have better luck when I’m face to face with company owners and such.

A320_rider

11th Mar 2006, 03:07

i also like to say that I once started with father. and many mothers, and sold my mothers to sponsor flight training for f.atpl - i not good son:{ . but we weep what we sow and chestnuts of wisdom can fall far from the tree. now many years later no A320, no money, no job and no mother's, but big debt and very cold atpl. see whatt can happen if u want to be a pilot! only jobs today are for the rich boy's with mothers who dont need to win the lotery. million's of pilots in places like the falkland islands, st helena and brokeback wyoming with good grammar like mine have no job's but are all still looking. as a young man or woman or whatever you should listen because your parent are right to tell you too stay at school to be an astronaut. i know. :sad:

zakpeegoodus

11th Mar 2006, 05:13

Maybe I should not comment as I am not so up with the aviation scene in Europe, but if you are in your early 20s, with the money to invest, I would say go for it…

I saw a statistic that at in Australia 80% of Commercial pilots holders do not work as pilots! All the same, there is work if you want it bad enough. Many people just seem to think it will be handed to them on a plate, few drive around the continent knocking on ever door at every airport, as I and my mates did. Admittedly, it did not work…first time...so I did it again!!! Finally I got my job…
I know things work somewhat different in Europe, but my point is that if you are prepared to work anywhere, for any wage, then you will get some hours, and on you go from there…If you are not prepared to do that to begin with, then forget being a pilot...I
If your idea is to just accumulate 250 hours, and buy a A320 type rating, and expect an airline to snap you up, then you have the wrong attitude to begin with…

I’m sure I’ll have better luck when I’m face to face with company owners and such.
Sure you will! When I wanted to go to your country (Canada) to work, I e-mailed around 100 companies, 2 got back to me to say “no thanks”…Still, I got a job by knocking on doors when I arrived…

Gufo

11th Mar 2006, 09:30

no mother's ... see whatt ... dont need to win the lotery ... million's ... have no job's but are all still looking. as a young man or woman or whatever you should listen because your parent are right to tell you too stay at school to be an astronaut...

with good grammar like mine

You've made my day brighter. Just lovely, mate... :8

guimaraes

11th Mar 2006, 10:11

Yes,you're all right at some point.
Ofcourse it was better back then when my father started a pilot school,and company sponsored his flight school,his TR and he got a job right away,but it's never gonna be like that anymore!!!!and that's what all of us should realise.those days are past,and are not coming back.

you see,in life,you gotta take some risk,otherwise everything would be as we planned,which is impossible.

in my country,there is only one (1!!!!) airline,so if i thought like most of guys do,i would never even think about getting a licence,beacuse it's very,very hard to get a job.but,i'm ready to struggle a couple of years,because that's what i wanna do with my life.it's better to struggle a couple of years,than be unhappy next forty years working in some office 9-5.

btw,if you look in the newspapers for some other jobs,EVERY company,not just the airlines,wants you to have some previous experience,but they still hire people without experience.ofcourse they would prefer one with experience,but if they can't find one,they'll hire one with knowledge(licence) required without experience.it's that simple.

put yourself in a position of an airliner.
you would probably prefer one with experience,with TR,with hours on type over some low hour guys fresh off the flight school.but,if there's not any of those with experience,you'll start thinking about giving a chance to those w/o experience.

Batfink58

11th Mar 2006, 12:02

Send Clowns,

Thanks for your input. I value your comments and suggestions.
However, I admit the grammar in my last post is poor, to be honest I did not even check my post since I was frantically bashing away at my keyboard to express my feelings. Grammar was the last thing on my mind at that time.

Anyway, excuses aside, I wish we could all be as perfect as you!!:yuk:

Thanks again, you have been a great help (not)

B200Drvr

11th Mar 2006, 12:05

It still amazes me how many people think that 250 hrs a CPL/IR and an MCC course will get you a job in a shiney airliner. Having worked on every continent bar Aus. and having never found as a rule that you will be employed in any regional or low cost airliner with less than 800 hrs or so, and that is being very kind. Sure there are the exceptions like in any industry, but if you go into this thinking you are an exception you are in for a wake up call.
Get more experience than the next guy, travel if you have to, to far away exotic countries and go do the sh!tty flying jobs that other people think are beneath them, come back with some good stories and even better flying time and see how easy it is to get a job.

Send Clowns

11th Mar 2006, 12:39

Batfink

If you want people to understand you, and to help you, you have to take seriously what you post. I was genuinely interested in where you are looking to find what is going on in the industry, because it doesn't look anything like the view from where I am. It would be a shame if you made a decision based on limited information then regreted it 10 years down the line. I was also genuinely trying to help advise you. This is a conservative industrys in which communication is considered of primary importance. If you really do want to fly then you will need to take advice from other people, as we all have done, and many people will offer help. However you will have to change your attitude, even if you don't agree with the advice don't jump on those that give it.

This business more than any other I have worked in is about how people percieve you, and what they think about working with you. More people get jobs by personal contacts than by replying to adverts, so if you go around with that attitude you will put up the backs of people who would otherwise have helped you.

B200

Some people really do get jobs at 250 hours on turboprops and jets, at least in the UK. I know several. However you are right that people have to be willing to work hard in other areas - and A320 again suggests he is only going for a jet job, and shows us all why he should never have tried to be a pilot.

scroggs

11th Mar 2006, 12:48

There are more wannabes than jobs. There always were, and there probably always will be. In UK, right now, there are lot more jobs than there have been for several years - probably as many as there were in the heady days of 1997/98 - but there are still more wannabes than jobs. Get used to it.

That said, don't listen to A320_rider who writes just to see himself in print. There is no legitimate basis for his 'statistics' about out of work pilots. While the situation is less good in other European countries than it is in UK, there are new flying jobs available in almost every country worldwide. However, I doubt there will ever be enough of a pilot shortage for anyone to offer A320_pilot a job! I'm sure he'll do OK as a comedian, anyway.

Scroggs

Pilot Pete

11th Mar 2006, 12:53

I've given up countering A320rider's figures as I have done it so many times before. There ARE jobs out there and this year has been better than any since 9/11. This doesn't change the fact that with no experience other than piston single and twin you are still a low houred pilot, one of many hundreds all applying for all the same jobs that you are applying for.

Unfortunately, you are ten-a-penny in recruitment terms so it does take a lot of effort, a bit of luck and a willingness to go and get some more experience and an expectation NOT to waltz straight into the right seat of a Boeing or Airbus. If you go ahead and start training because of a love of flying, then the years you spend flying smaller aircraft will actually be some of your best times, even if you live on peanuts during them!

Sponsorship is obviously the one to aim at, but they are few and far between and you need to be quite an impressive, young individual to get one. Don't bank on it....

Good luck.

PP

Batfink58

11th Mar 2006, 13:22

Excuse my ignorance, I am very new to all this...

So, after completing CPL/MEIR/MCC with approx 200hrs, what did you guys do next and for how long did you do it for until you got into the golden seat of a jet. What were you earning during this time?

My dilemma is that at the moment I am in my 30's employed in an aviation related job earning £40K / year in London, my wife and I have a comfortable life and are pretty much set up (no kids yet). It is my dream to do what you guys do for a living, as such I am considering re-mortgaging the house to fund the training, but what scares the sxxt out of me is that what if I get no job at the end and no money coming in, how will i support my family. I know it is my decision as to what I do, however, before I get myself into this I want to make sure that I have my eyes wide open and know what to expect.

Any advise will be most appreciated.

Send Clowns

11th Mar 2006, 13:39

That is very much a legitimate concern. I know people who have ended up in that position, one of whom posts here and, I beleive, is now on his way up with a flying job, and others who have lost their marriage because of the strains of becomig a pilot. However there is work out there if you are willing and able to take those risks and to work hard, accept a drop in living standards, accept that your early jobs will be paid less than what you are on now. I am afraid that it is a risk, but everyone I know who has the time available (i.e. is not starting on the older end, where time is more critical) and persists seems to get there in the end.

B200Drvr

11th Mar 2006, 14:04

Send Clowns, I agree that it does happen, it is just not what people should think is going to happen. :{

Fair_Weather_Flyer

11th Mar 2006, 16:28

I very much agree with B200Drver's outlook. Every pilot I've met who has been willing to work at it has found a good flying job in the end. That's why I went ahead with my own training. By working at it I mean beavering away at the arse end of the industry PPL instructing or glider towing.

I would bet that 90% of trainees anticipate a medium size jet job on FATPL completion but probably only 10% get that job. Some of the unlucky 90% are happy and able to do the aforementioned hour building jobs and always get there in the end. The rest seem to form this huge group of 250hr FATPL holders who have only their own basic training to offer.

Batfink58

11th Mar 2006, 18:11

I don't expect to fall straight into a shiny jet job with a fATPL @ 250hrs. I would be more then willing to do some hard graft to be able to get to such a position. I don't care what flying it is, so long as I am in the air and not on the ground, it can be instructing, air taxi, aerial,... etc.
But what I would like to know is, from you experienced guys:

1) How long did you have to do such jobs before you achieved a rhs on a jet?
2) What were you earning during this period?

south coast

11th Mar 2006, 18:58

send clowns...

i really dont know where you get your ideas from...we are in a great job yes, but it is just a job like any other...dont try to make it out to be something that it isnt.

what makes you so special that you can judge peoples attitudes...are you someone doing the hiring of pilots, are you a chief pilot, are you a head of recruitment?

it is a forum where people say what they are thinking, and if you think because i write all in lower case it means i would do so in a formal letter, like the guy who you said mis-spelled or didnt use perfect grammar...

come on, stop being so anal!

Send Clowns

11th Mar 2006, 19:01

Then I reckon you'll get there, Batfink, and good luck to you :ok:

How long is a far more difficult question. Timing, luck, contacts and your personality can have such a huge effect that it really is impossible to say. Often it will be 6 months to two years, but at the moment that is righ down for a lot of people. I hit the worst time and have waited over 4 years, but it has been worth it - I absolutely love my job :D

South Coast

The job is 'just' a job, though to many of us a great one. However the industry is not just any industry. For a huge number of reasons I have observed that recruitment differs in aviation to that in many other areas of work. One of the main reasons is that many people have spent a lot of money to do a job they really want. Another reason is the close confines of the cockpit an the enforced socialising when ending up "down route" with crews.

I am not in pilot recruitment, although I know people who are or have been and have talked with them about these issues. I have also seen many people go through training, and many of them find jobs across different sectors ofthe industry. I base my comments on my observations and discussions.

Notice that your post is harder to read than others because it is all in lower case. Why do you not then use capitals?

south coast

11th Mar 2006, 19:18

because i just type without wanting to have to stop and use capital letters at the beginning of sentences and when i use the letter i.

as for being harder to read, never heard that one before.

i see the number of postings you have made, 6,000 odd, what airline is it that you work for allowing you so much time off to make so many postings...i only ask because i would like to work for them too!

Preston Watson

11th Mar 2006, 19:36

If you have a family, comfortable job, and nice house don't do it! I've seen people go bust luckly they didn't have any family or assets, if they did then the house and everything else would have to rightly go to pay bank back if you didn't get a job.

I'm a low-hour FATPL guy and haven't got any jobs as yet, think of the damage that does when you give up your job to do a full-time ATPL...

£60k plus interest = £100k plus say your salary 2x£25k= £50k and then the type rating £10k that's going to cost you £160,000.... = 1 house and homeless family.

Think about it.

Batfink58

11th Mar 2006, 23:18

Send Clowns,

Thanks for the advise, much appreciated.

South Coast,

Bravo.... Bravo...:ok:
You seem to say exactly what I'm thinking. I totally agree and this is what I was trying to get at earlier regarding the grammar issue. By the way, I've had NO problems reading your posts, they are as easy to read as anyone else's.
I was somewhat put back when I was requesting help and advise and all I got was criticism about grammar etc with no reference to my actual query.

Preston,
You hit the nail on the head. It's so much to risk, but then the thought of not pursuing a flying career is just gut wrenching. Rock and hard place come to mind.:}

Wazzoo

11th Mar 2006, 23:55

Capital letters are there at the beginning of sentance so you can easily see when one ends and a new one starts. With only a full stop to separate sentances it just becomes one long jumble of words and not particularly readable.

What happened to basic GCSE English, or is everyone just too lazy these days to take a few seconds of thought over a post? Maybe thats why there are so many posts where people are too quick to get to the submit button and post their rant without thinking through what they are say.

Ah well, I think I'm the one ranting now. I'll get my coat...:hmm:

Send Clowns

12th Mar 2006, 00:10

Hahaha, South I have never worked for an airline per se, but was in the flight training industry, so often in front of a computer between classes, and able to help students with a quick post, or add some sarky comment on Jet Blast. As a flight instructor I also posted on that forum quite a bit, for advice and to discuss other people's questions. I am now an ad-hoc charter company pilot, so have time waiting in the office so we can get flying as soon as a job comes through, as we live or die by reaction times. I have also been posting for quite some time, about 5 years!

So what you are saying is "because I'm lazy and can't be bothered to write properly"? So what does that say to the people who you are trying to communicate with? That what you or they are saying is not worth your effort? Believe me that is how it comes across, and when someone is asking for advice or wanting to make a good first impression it is not the best way to start! As I have said I often have answered people's questions here and on the professioanl training forum, and I put a lot of effort into making what I write clear, unambiguous and easy to understand. I might not always succeed, but I am far more likely to try if the person I am answering takes his own words seriously.

Try reading your post quickly against a correctly-written one. I certainly find I have to concentrate a lot harder. Punctuation and capitalisation is there for a reason, and when you are used to it reading is harder without it! I suspect you are younger than I am, and from the "text" generation who read a lot of none-standard sentence construction, so you are used to that. However it will slow down your rate of assimilation of text, because of the way a brain reads most efficiently. Ideally you want your eye to scan sentences in a certain pattern, and that can more easily be achieved by using a clear sentence structure and if all words are approximately correctly spellt, all punctuation laid to make the information clear. Unfortunately my spelling is poor, but I work on that and make sure my grammar is not bad to help write clearly.

Fancy Navigator

12th Mar 2006, 08:34

Excuse my ignorance, I am very new to all this...
So, after completing CPL/MEIR/MCC with approx 200hrs, what did you guys do next and for how long did you do it for until you got into the golden seat of a jet. What were you earning during this time?
My dilemma is that at the moment I am in my 30's employed in an aviation related job earning £40K / year in London, my wife and I have a comfortable life and are pretty much set up (no kids yet). It is my dream to do what you guys do for a living, as such I am considering re-mortgaging the house to fund the training, but what scares the sxxt out of me is that what if I get no job at the end and no money coming in, how will i support my family. I know it is my decision as to what I do, however, before I get myself into this I want to make sure that I have my eyes wide open and know what to expect.
Any advise will be most appreciated.

All the best, but if you have to re-mortgage your house and give up on your current job, you are taking a BIG RISK. Is jeopardising all or most of what you've got and achieved, on a "possible" job, worth it? Let's be realistic.
FNav :)

Flintstone

12th Mar 2006, 10:25

Clowns, while you're dishing out the advice do you think you might find the time to take some?

One of the few true gentlemen left in aviation once told me that the most dangerous thing after a junior officer with a map and compass is an untested assumption, akin to the ones you're making about south coast.

Have you met him? Flown with him? Socialised with him? Of course you haven't. I on the other hand have and know him to be a conscientious and professional pilot who cuts no corners. His choice to be a little informal in an internet forum which is not 'real life' (take note) in no way detracts from his work. If, as you say, he gives the wrong impression how do explain his successful career thus far?

I'd fly and have a drink with him any day unlike a certain (then) unemployed instructor I met at a Gatbash several years ago who didn't even have the manners to thank me for buying him a beer though I don't suppose your memory allows you to see that far back from your lofty perch.

south coast

12th Mar 2006, 10:43

well, flintstone, my learned friend....how can i reply to that. all i can say is you are a gentleman and a tight fit!

just seems that send clowns is knit picking with people about things which really have no bearing on anything...

must be fun being his f/o....not!

Batfink58

12th Mar 2006, 11:58

Guys,

I'd like to ask a simple question if I may? :hmm:
Is it possible to pursue a modular training programme all the way to a fATPL, whilst keeping a full time job? (i.e train during weekend, evenings and take a few weeks leave from work etc).
What I'm thinking is that if I can go through with the training and keep my job, then at least I will have money coming in to support the family and pay the increased mortgage loan on my house. This way I will still have a job at the end of it and all I will have lost is the money (a lot of it) if things don't work out.
Since I'm not 100% familiar with the way things go, I'm looking at you guys for advise.
Have any of you done it this way or know of anyone who has? If so, how long, approximately, did it take to get to fATPL?

As always, any constructive advise would be much much appreciated.

Thanks

fullrich

12th Mar 2006, 13:15

Batfink

Yes It ceratinaly is possible. I have done so but I am lucky enough to have a flexible job and very understanding wife. I have met others who left their jobs saying it was too tough but everybodys circumstatnces are different. Try to keep earning as long as possible and do not leave until ye have another one lined up..my advice! Do the CPL at weekends and keep some of your holidays for the end of the MEIR.

A320rider

12th Mar 2006, 17:52

UK or USA, there is no so much difference.
what I have noticed in the UK, it is the wind.

with 20-40 knots of wind at 3000 feet, it mess all your heading, and you have to fly very precisely.

even in Europe(france, italy) we do not have so much wind at these low levels.

outside of this, I have not seen so many differences except the CAA fees!!!(criminals)

what I suggest:if you have a Non JAA license, do not waste time and money with these :mad: , be typed, and take your chance in China, india, Africa,...

Flintstone

12th Mar 2006, 19:40

More miserable stuff
It must be really, really gloomy in your part of the world A320rider. I KNOW how hard it is but seriously mate I can't help but think that half your trouble is your own state of mind.
Do yourself a favour and get laid.
Then give me her phone number:E

Andy_20

12th Mar 2006, 20:06

Hey im currently doing some research to find jobs and the ease of finding companies to employ new pilots probably non type... Anyone know any good websites or places? ive been looking but not come up with very much

Cheers :ok:

Batfink58

12th Mar 2006, 20:20

Has anyone else tried the "training and work at the same time" approach. How long did it take you?

Jumbo744

13th Mar 2006, 01:55

I think this website can be helpful:

http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/

SBAB

13th Mar 2006, 06:01

check out www.ppjn.com (http://www.ppjn.com) for various airline info and jobs, good luck

A320rider

13th Mar 2006, 06:49

try flightinternational.com, it has changed name but you will be linked to the correct site.
apply even if they ask you the impossible.
this situation is simply ridiculous!

Thrusthold

13th Mar 2006, 08:09

Batfink,

Hi. I took the modular approach working during the week and studying (distance learning) at nights and weekends. I struggled for approx 6 months trying to juggle all commitments.

It didn't work for me but I do know several who have successfully achieved both but in double the time. It all depends on how much free time you can spare without ruining your relationship/job/life etc...In the end I came to the conclusion that if I was serious about becoming an airline pilot I had to give it all my attention. It took me 2 yrs from 0-ATPL(F) and i'm sure it saved me time in the long run.

Plus to be honest all the interviews and discussions I have had with airline recruiters, they seem to prefer candidates to have been "full-time" i.e Integrated of full time modular....

Best advice I could give is:

Try for Airline sponsorship with a garenteed job at the end (Like golddust but low risk for you)
Take unpaid leave if possible for 16-18 months. Get all the training done and return to work.
Go to a flying school with a good reputation (it shouldn't make a differece but sadly it does!)
After training get a job in the industry and NETWORK you Azz off!!!If you can return to a job in the industry this would give you a considerable advantage over others. Unfortunately networking and contacts are key in the aviation industry. I left my comfortable job to become "Cabin Crew". I put up with that for over 18 months.......But it has just lead to a job and i'm sure it will make me a better pilot.

Best of luck to ALL

ToneTheWone

13th Mar 2006, 08:21

Yes - well sort of.

Ran my own business at the same time as going from zero to CPL I/R. To me it was the right decision as the business was very viable during that period of my life.

The down side however was considerable. It took longer then I antisipated - all of 5 years.

However the real down side was that it was much more difficult to completly switch off from business and just concentrate on the flying. Also due to one particular business upset I had to leave my I/R course after one week, only going back one year later to finish it off. The overall result was that I took more hours to gain my CPL than I would have done otherwise. It was also much more of a strain and I think I would have enjoyed the whole experience more if I'd just have concentrated on the flying.

At the end of the day, eveybody's situation is different and you have to do what you think is best for you. But whatever you decide there will be pros and cons.

Batfink58

13th Mar 2006, 08:52

Thanks very much for your most valuable advise and for sharing your experience with me.

You really have been a great help.:ok:

I've got some serious thinking to do now:confused:

Deano777

13th Mar 2006, 13:34

Batfink

I am currently undertaking the ATPLs whilst holding a full time job although we have just been given redundancy notice (great), and also during the studying we had a 6 month old baby whilst my wife was pregnant with our youngest who is now 8 months old (do NOT go there :) ). You could say that the time I chose to undertake the ATPLs was totally and utterly wrong, well, as has already been stated you need an understanding wife, and you need committment, but it can be done, you can't get much more hectic than my life with 2 babies under the age of 1 coupled with the job and study, I got the majority of Mod1 with BGS out the way within a few months, and now the same with Mod2, the impending brush-up course is in 7 weeks.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do, but it can be done, if you need any encouragement etc feel free to PM me etc

Rgds

Dean

p.s. Get off Send Clown's back all, I can see what he is saying and he is being genuine, everything he said is right :ok:

Heliseka

13th Mar 2006, 18:54

Read an article last week in the Irish times that Ryan air,just had interviews with Pilots from S.A.S Airlines and need 1000 pilots at all levels over the next year to cover new routes.Sorry don't want to start up the Ryan air debate again just letting you no the story,Also heard of lots of lads getting jobs with 250hrs,:cool:

blueb0y79

14th Mar 2006, 10:05

try aviationrecruitment.co.uk....not many pilot jobs but all in UK

BB

Nicolas DG

15th Mar 2006, 00:02

Hello, my name is Nicolas Del Giudice and I wonder if someone know about some web-page in which I can find some information about jobs in companys that use cessnas or some small aircraft. Ok, thanks, and have good flights!!!:ok:

Thrusthold

15th Mar 2006, 07:33

Hi Nicolas,

I'm not sure where you are looking for a job, but if it's for the UK try www.ppjn.com (http://www.ppjn.com) and click on small operators (uk).

Andy
Best place is www.flightglobal.com/jobs (http://www.flightglobal.com/jobs) but also try www.aviationjobsearch.com (http://www.aviationjobsearch.com), www.pilot4rent.com (http://www.pilot4rent.com) and the company websites...

Best of luck

Thrust

A320rider

18th Mar 2006, 21:39

I have received jobs propositions from Africa.(3 in 1 year)
when you look at the e-mail, it comes from reputable companies.(except for the email adress)
They ask you to come to africa with the $ for your type rating,and promess you a job.they will meet you at the airport!and I suggest you to have the $!!!! or...?

watch out! it is a bullet in your head you are buying.

I love aviation:{

G-IBBO

18th Mar 2006, 21:43

Why don't you go?

Check Mags On

18th Mar 2006, 22:30

A320 did you ever know Eric Cantona in a previous life.

Your posts are getting more and more like his infamous seaguls and trawler monologue. Seriously though, do you actually set out to make them amusing.

Scroggs

In another thread you said A320 was posting from Belgium, I always thought that, that was on this planet. ????????

Flintstone

19th Mar 2006, 07:18

My theory on A320Rider is that he's a persona invented by PPRuNe admin to keep people entertained.

I mean, c'mon. Nobody could be this pathetic in real life.;)

Dannyc

19th Mar 2006, 08:54

Just in case A320rider actually has any qualifications!!:}

TNT based Belgium looking to recruit JAA FATPL pilots (250 hrs minimum) to fly freight on BAE146 from Liege I believe, need 100 pilots this year and will offer type ratings subject to bonding agreement.

Have a look at that, all details can be found on www.futureairlinepilot.com (http://www.futureairlinepilot.com), several other jobs going too for people without type ratings!

Do something productive A320rider and get yourself a job... on another note don't stop posting on pprune... the nonsense is hilarious. :}

Cheers,

dannyc:hmm:

A320rider

19th Mar 2006, 12:54

thanks for the link danny,

keep coming with your childish answers! I make 1$ for each answer, with this I will buy myself a type rating!

zooloflyer

19th Mar 2006, 12:57

Hey Magneto, I am from Belgium and A320 is from Swiss! Although I have been accused of being one and the same, I must say that I still admire A320 for his 'stand-up comedian' like writing and the touch of reality in his posts...

And for your info, TNT only recruiting people with Belgian nationality because so many foreigners came just to learn and left after a short period...you could try with a SSTR but consider all other application being thrown straight in the dust bin.

Sorry for this reality.:sad:

zooloflyer

19th Mar 2006, 13:04

For your info, Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium idem dito - even 99% of them are Belgian & Flemish...

A320rider

19th Mar 2006, 13:10

Hey Magneto, I must say that I still admire A320 for his 'stand-up comedian' like writing and the touch of reality in his posts...

And for your info, TNT only recruiting people with Belgian nationality Sorry for this reality.:sad:

thank you for the compliment! now I am touching myself!!!
for TNT, there is no hope. they want pilots living close of their airport.I think I will try the bullet thing in Africa.

zooloflyer

19th Mar 2006, 13:27

Must be veeery close to the airport as I am a Belgian resident but still seam to be living too far away from Liege...

mad_jock

19th Mar 2006, 14:48

So your moaning about not getting a job and you won't shift your arse to where there is one. And I thought you already had a type rating A320.

There is a very good safety reason for living close to the airport, walking distance is the safest thing. The driving in Belgium is insane the buggers try and get you coming out of side roads and the older generations (over 40 I think it was 1979) have never sat a driving test.

Its quite common in the UK to use tatical addresses when applying to airlines zoo try using a relatives or mates near liege. I also suspect you might be Flemmish and the HR deptment is French. Which is a whole different level of discrimination that wannabies have to deal with in the UK.

Have you thought about doing a FI rating and working in the UK for a bit?
In the instructors forum there have been a few posts about shortages and people with jobs before they complete the course. £5k and you should earn enough to survive for a year while you apply to the operators in the UK.

BitMoreRightRudder

19th Mar 2006, 15:10

A320 - suggestion for you sir.

Do you have change machines in your country? You know the ones, you put in all your coppers and you get notes and pound coins in return (depending on how many coppers you put in obviously). It's just I went down the supermarket yesterday and put loads of shrapnel in the machine and got about 50 quid out of it. Don't get me wrong, I like your $1 per childish response idea, just thought that maybe if you collect lots of loose change this might be a quicker way to advance your Type Rating fund. You are buying one are you not? Every bugger has one these days. From the smallest acorns and all that.

Regards:D

winch launch

19th Mar 2006, 15:29

Have you thought about doing a FI rating and working in the UK for a bit?
In the instructors forum there have been a few posts about shortages and people with jobs before they complete the course. £5k and you should earn enough to survive for a year while you apply to the operators in the UK.

I would love to do that, but don' t you think it would be hard for a non brit to get that kind of position?
What' s the best way to get an instructor's job if you are not from the airclub's neighbourhood?

Thanks

winch

trainer too 2

19th Mar 2006, 20:06

Time to set up a Pprune Get A320 rider to Africa fund! :D

mad_jock

19th Mar 2006, 21:05

No problem at all winch.

I have met a very broad range of nationalitys workings as instructors, FO's and Captains in the UK.

Forget all the rules for working in mainland europe they really don't work in the UK. We maybe on paper part of the EU but in real life you couldn't get farther from the truth.

A320rider

20th Mar 2006, 12:17

do we have to move close of an airport just to get the job?
Rent an appart is not cheap.

I would move if I have the job, but I do not see the point to move just to say I live close of a airport.

it is just one more way to filter applicants, nothing else.

I still need 30'000 answers to pay my type rating:E .

Send Clowns

20th Mar 2006, 12:58

Zooloflyer - where did you find the touch of reality in A320's posts? I was under the impression that the two concepts rarely intersected.

RMP2

20th Mar 2006, 13:25

I know A320 rider, he's french and only have a PPL license...

If you want to know more, find his posts under the name of Superced..

Cheers

Send Clowns

20th Mar 2006, 15:19

But if he looks on Dannyc's link he will find plenty of virtual airlines, so he can get a virtual job there. So I was even more correct than I thought when I commented on A320's loose connetion with reality!

Superced certainly reads like A320, and isn't he talking to himself a lot? I thought he was also spaceman, but he talks to spaceman a lot in French. Oh, and is claiming to be an instructor with 1200 hours and an Airbus type rating. If he was then he's wasted his money - for that sort of cash I could recommend some training that would almost guarantee a job, and it wouldn't be an A320 rating!

zooloflyer

21st Mar 2006, 06:48

But if he looks on Dannyc's link he will find plenty of virtual airlines, so he can get a virtual job there.

OK OK, You're pretty funny too!!:E

zooloflyer

21st Mar 2006, 07:03

There is a very good safety reason for living close to the airport, walking distance is the safest thing. The driving in Belgium is insane the buggers try and get you coming out of side roads and the older generations (over 40 I think it was 1979) have never sat a driving test.

100% right; :ok: crazy elderly! and they seam to be multiplying by the day...funny thing is that they get cheap insurances because they are such calm and safe drivers!!!

Its quite common in the UK to use tatical addresses when applying to airlines zoo try using a relatives or mates near liege. I also suspect you might be Flemmish and the HR deptment is French. Which is a whole different level of discrimination that wannabies have to deal with in the UK.

Thanks for the good tip but watch out! You're talking about Liege here dude, not Paris or London - it's the middle of f***** nowhere - you have any relations there???

Have you thought about doing a FI rating and working in the UK for a bit?

I guess a would go for the Africa bullet thing...

No, all funny things put aside, thanks for the advice - to be honnest, I am just back on track after a few years of studying and working in non airline business environment so for the moment trying all other things first before getting completely desperate (again)...

Is it really so that the UK market is almost without pilots? If I read the forums here it does't seam so??

mad_jock

21st Mar 2006, 09:30

UK is not awash with jobs but its pretty healthy just now from my experence.

Certainly alot better than main land europe.

There are jobs though for people who put the work in and are willing to move the earth to get a job.

Leige is a dump but yes even from scotland I could get an address without to much hassel near by. Where there are oil companys an Aberdonian has contacts.

Its very easy to sit at a computer and moan that you can't get a job on a website. The poeple that get off their backsides and do the hard graft you never hear from and they are the ones that get a job. It might be a job that some would turn their noses up at, I can't see A320 wanting to do night mail flights in some old battered frieghter. But its better than being unemployed, the pay might be crap, and some may be a form of legal slavery (being and instructor). But its a job and every hour in your log book counts.

Experenced FO's are evaporating from the Turboprop fleets onto jets. Bonds arn't worth the paper they are written on as the increase in salary's is covered in the first 6 months. At manchester there used to be quite a few pilot qualified dispatchers working. They have all seemed to have disappeared into jobs. Including the sexy blond one who is off to drive a 757 for a first job.

thebeast

21st Mar 2006, 10:30

Well I am bored at work as no one will give me a decent job as it obvious I will leave them if even a sniff of a flyig job comes along (little do they know this could be years and years) so here goes a moan…..

Many people seem to say that the pilot employment market has picked up and well yes maybe it has got better, but if it has, it has gone from a total nightmare to just completely crap. It is even difficult to get yourself on a good self sponsored type rating scheme. I just enquired to GECAT and was told they are not taking any more application until late summer at the earliest due to a massive back log, now this is a back log of people willing to pay £20,000 so imagine how many are going for jobs on these rare occasions when a company pays for your type rating.

Having a good training record and good educational back ground etc I though I would have a decent chance of a job but it seems that this industry is all about contacts and cash as opposed to the person. I know I have only been looking 3 months but that is 3 months without even an interview, I mean what other sector would you not even get an interview after 3 of months!

Here are some of my thoughts /experiences with just a few of the companies I have applied to….

Not having the finances to complete an integrated curse I went modular although certainly not by the cheapest method (which I now regret as could have made a type rating at least affordable). So being modular that rules out entry to the like of BA, Thomsonfly, Excel, GB etc although obviously I have applied anyway with the response being we won’t be recruiting low hours pilots this year.... lies of course.
Flybe - no response, although heard they got over 1,000 applications in a week so odds are stacked against. Waiting for the online app to open again (if it does) although I believe they continue to take suggested people from Integrated Schools and also interviewed some recommended by AFT recently.
BA connect - missed their recruitment as wasn't finished training, although similar amount of applications to Flybe. From what I read those who were told in October they had an interview are still waiting for the interview, so I think its safe to say it'll be a while till they are recruiting again.
Logan Air – online form completed, nothing heard back. Even a rejection would be nice.
Air Southwest - no response but even if they did I'm not sure I could relocate, pay off loans and actually afford bread and water! The salary is so low. I mean £16,000 tops is taking the micky.
Easy jet, Thompson Fly Mytravel - all a good prospect if you get into CTC, unfortunately I got the chop at the final stage of selection so they are gone.
Atlantic& Highland – seem to take either their own cadets otr type rated pilots.

Irish cousins

Aer Arran - told they have 1,100 on file and I think you really have to be type rated to have any hope.
Ryan Air – infamous to say the least. When training I thought no way, but suddenly with no sign of a flying job in sight, it is suddenly a very appealing option. But even here it is very tough to get in. They may desperately need Pilots but as usual it is experienced pilots and there are no shortages of people like me, and a lot with £20,000 to burn. Both SAS and CAE have many thousands of applications on file, having chased them both on several occasions with very little success. I know several people who have been successful but this has always been through a good contact, getting their CV to the top of the pile directly at Ryan Air and not through the type rating schools.
City jet – Seems to be a decent opportunity, although I have two rejections to date now going for a third!
Air Contractors – Same as Aer Arran , no type rating no chance and even then it is tough.
India – No go unless you’re a Captain
China – Similar to India really although maybe ops for experienced FO’s, but then why would you go to China if experienced.

So the options

Stay current and hope. Hard to afford any flying that will make a difference to your CV other than just staying current.

Somehow get the money together for a type rating, big risk and certainly cannot afford to buy 100 hrs plus or even 500 I mean were will this stop!

Flight Instructor – just cannot afford the extra debt to then be paid a pittance.

Save up some cash and head to Africa, a totally desperate option, might give it a go!
Basically I’m s******d

Re-Heat

21st Mar 2006, 10:42

Ref CTC:Unfortunately I got the chop at the final stage of selection

What does that say about self-selection?

Go into non-flying jobs with a decent attitude and don't even mention that you will be leaving to persue a career as a pilot if offered a job in the flightdeck. They don't know the cost, so simply say that you had a sabbatical as it is something that you always wanted to do; now you fly at weekends only.

Talk about giving the wrong impression - of course you won't get anywhere otherwise.

EGBKFLYER

21st Mar 2006, 10:54

I'd give up if I were you. No money for a type rating, don't want to instruct because the money is cr*p, got a load of rejections from the majors, assuming they bothered to reply...:\

Alternatively, the glass could be half full. Set your sights lower - instruct for a while, keeping current, earning a little, getting some of those contacts if you do it right. Knock on doors, write more letters to small survey companies or gliding sites that might need pilots with no hours - in short, keep on trucking or you will fall by the wayside.

Me? - been looking for 18 months. Also got binned by CTC, also got a load of PFOs. Am I down? No siree. I'm 3 hours from the end of an FI course and I will be taking a 60%+ pay cut to instruct full time if I can find a job thereafter. I will be flying and building my experience. Might get a job on something bigger and faster eventually or I might not. Right now, not bothered because I will be flying and that's what I want to do.:D

Chin up mate. Yes this is a difficult industry to get on in, but it's impossible without a positive attitude...

Send Clowns

21st Mar 2006, 10:55

lies of course.So you know those are lies? Except that I know pilots in all those airlines, and I know that they either take very few or no pilots on with 250 hours, so it is likely that what they are saying is true.

Don't get so dispondant about "1000 Cvs". Remember that in all cases they are the same 1000 CVs, which have also been sent to another dozen large compaies and some of the hundreds of employers of pilots in the country. How many of these have you applied to? How many have you approached looking for non-flying jobs, with a view to making those vital contacts? Have you considered becoming an instructor? Lots I know are getting into good jobs.

thebeast

21st Mar 2006, 11:04

Talk about giving the wrong impression - of course you won't get anywhere otherwise.

ReHeat ovbiously I have been far more economical with the truth when looking for non aviation jobs and come up with some decent BS.

Although that is not really the problem, it is more of an age thing as 29 now and want to get flying asap. The problems with instructing is that it will cost about another £6,000 which is not really an affordable in terms with my current commitments. I don not mind the pay being crap but it has to be enough to live on.

Anyway moan over dont want to be the next A320 Rider (not on pprune at any road)

Superpilot

21st Mar 2006, 11:06

Ditto Re-Heat's advice. This is how I have gotten myself into a job that pays more than your average FO's salary. I've worked my way up through the ranks now and literally get 2-3 hours of free time a day. Time I can put to use for researching flying training/jobs and ATPL study. Mustn't take the piss though so back to work before someone checks my internet usage.......doh! that's me! :E

voador

21st Mar 2006, 20:45

Fisrt of all I´m sorry for some mistakes that could appear ( english is not my mother language ):D .

I´m 32 years old...
With 19 years old I begun my PPL and 4 months later was finish.( I was the second in my classroom the first one is my friend (also with 32 years old) and he is already A 320 Captain in the major airline (Captain since 2004).

During 1995 and 1996 I was building time for the CPL, I went to the USA and I made Multi IFR there than I come back and, I begun CPL still in 1996
( It was supposed to take 9 months, but it toke almost 2 years because my stupid wife decide to divorce at end of 1996 causing me to much problems and expences )

Then finally in 1998 I finish the CPL ( let me tell you all my classroom colleagues they were 7 are already A 320 Captains in the major airline, and one of them with 29 years old )

In 1999 I start to send Cv´s to all airlines.Just came negative answers oh guy I had so luck!!!!!:\

But in 2000 a private jet executive company told me " do your Cessna Citation type rating than we give you a job ":)

two weeks later....

USA here I go again after 3 weeks I had the C500/C550 type Rating.
Coming back to that private company they told " next week you will do your base training " nice I thouth....
One week later I went to do the base training guess what ?
I was informed by the company " sorry the manager decide and sold the Cessna Citation we don´t operate that airplane anymore " :\

( of course without experience on type noboby would gave me a job )
Once more nice 8000$ Us dollars to the garbage. :yuk:

Well I don´t give up so easily.

Still in 2000 I went back to the flight school to do ATPL modular ( once more we were 12 and at the moment 10 are working as pilot )

Almost passed 2 years and several interviews in the major airline I didn´t had the 3 most important requirements ( 1 - Experince in line 2 - Be airforce pilot 3 - Be son of a captain ):yuk:

One more year and nothing. is now 2004...

I have to do it, so let do it...
I went to a TRTO and 2 months later I had A 320 type rating (but more problems were on the way) six months waiting for base training ( this is luck ).
In October 2004, one day I went to my mail box a letter from a airline
:ooh: .
An interview.
2 weeks later I was in a Operator Conversion Course wich I ended sucefully.
Guess what? We were 10 pilots in the classroom 5 went to line training (and they already lef to airline) and the rest including me are now on rack.:\
Everything I wrote above is complitly true, after 12 years I still don´t have a job as pilot.
Until today I spend more than 80.000€ in PPL CPL ATPL A 320 because of course I can pay (I´m not rich).
Also since 1994 I keep my job working as loading supervisor in the Hanling services at international airport, I´m married (again) and in October I will father for the first time.;)
I still keep me alive with my dream of be airline pilot and I will faith for this. The aviation today is a war, we just have to FAITH for what we want!!!:D

THE BEAST YOU DON´T HAVE TO BE BORED I´M NOT A LUCKY GUY
BUT I LIVE MY LIVE .

Best Regards for Everybody
The guy with luck.......;)

rduarte

22nd Mar 2006, 10:26

Almost passed 2 years and several interviews in the major airline I didn´t had the 3 most important requirements ( 1 - Experince in line 2 - Be airforce pilot 3 - Be son of a captain ):yuk:

3 most important requirements : 1- Be son of a captain
2- Be Air Force pilot
3- Experince in line

zooloflyer

23rd Mar 2006, 06:33

Voadar & others, keep the faith man!

I'm also in the game since 1995 - TIME FLIES! :}

Although I have to admit that I left the scene from 2002 till end of 2005. Apparently not such a bad decision as I spoke a lot to guys lately who are complaining that they are waiting for 2 years now...2 years; what a laugh! Off course some slip through the net but let's say 3 out of 4 had not such luck in the last couple of years.

What amazes me most is that I speak to people or hear stories of people who were in it for 100hrs + ATPL and just quit because there was no job waiting for them... You can't do that these days...frozen ATPL expires etc. Imagine man - just be proud that you're still in the running!!

I'm sure you'll get back what you deserved:ok:

What comes around, goes around - it's 100% pure science!

Good luck.

The Mixmaster

6th Oct 2006, 23:15

I found this site useful for London Office's:

http://www.londononline.co.uk/local/Transport_and_Logistics/Airlines/

AIRWAY

8th Oct 2006, 18:53

Dan,

Way early...

First, concentrate on your studies. :ok:

If you wan't then you can start doing some light aviation reading that will prepare/help you when you start your flight training, once qualified then you can start sending your CV out.

Anything drop me a PM.

All the best.

emmma

9th Oct 2006, 11:59

Hi all,

Just an advice, I am looking for a website were to log in in order to receive info about pilots job in Europe or around the globe, I know aviationcareer or Pilot jobs, if you have any suggestion I would appreciate it,
so far I hold 740 h , I saw the parc aviation site or other similar, but all jobs are adressed to pilot with over 1500 h ecc ecc.

Any help will be well appreciated,

PM are appreciated,

thank you to everyone,

Emmanuele.

razzele

9th Oct 2006, 12:09

I found this thread useful yesterday,

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=240320

There are a few others as well, good luck in your search.

:ok:

Aerofoil

9th Oct 2006, 17:05

Hi all

I just wondered if anyone has a contact telephone number for Pete Durnford of BMI Baby? Ifso could you please PM it to me as this would be much appreciated.

Many thanks

Foil

usedtofly

1st Dec 2006, 12:32

Hi everyone, I'm not sure which forum to place this in so here goes.......

Does anyone have any advice on how to get a definitive list of who is employing/who to send CV's to etc?

I have tried searching but without success.

Many thanks

UTF

unimuts

1st Dec 2006, 12:53

Okay i'll try to be gentle,

there are a few options, but firstly try ppjn.com good list always growing and updated no and again. I think it is best place to start for you. Others include using the google search or buy the flight international directory of world airlines, think it comes out in March/ April time very very good list.

But best of luck and wish you well.

:ok:

Callsign Kilo

1st Dec 2006, 14:20

http://www.futureairlinepilot.com/recruiting.html

However it suprises me that someone who wants a job, needs to ask how to go about getting it. Not a dig but internet search engines are a wonderful tool!

Goodluck

PAPI-74

1st Dec 2006, 18:40

ipapilot.com

This has the most detailed, but you have to be a member. The free sites are ok but a bit out of date.

bermudapilot

1st Dec 2006, 21:11

Papi 74 thanks that was very helpful!

bluepeely

2nd Dec 2006, 10:57

No airlines employ anyone unless you have 100000+ hours,a signed letter off the queen and a type rating for everything that has ever flown including kites and daddylonglegs.
I'm not bitter:ugh:

usedtofly

2nd Dec 2006, 11:37

Thanks guys

I did try Google etc but search throws up so much rubbish.

In my defence I am not asking 'how to get a job', just simply using all resources available to increase my chances of getting accurate and updated information. This of course includes PPRUNE.

Cheers

UTF

PAPI-74

2nd Dec 2006, 17:21

I hope you have better luck than I did.
I spent 4 months constantly applying, cold calling, bumping into pilots etc.....
Gave up and have gone instructing for a year.
Great fun.
As was mentioned before, you will need buckets of hours, vaults of cash, and a bag of Jordans panties, if you want a job within 6 months.

Oh!
I'm not bitter either.
To##ers

Anotherflapoperator

2nd Dec 2006, 19:32

Guys, even with 5,700hrs of which 3,600 are on the BAe146, I am finding it difficult to get work now. The SSTR schemes are the devil incarnate, and firms like CTC are predisposed to chop those who have too many hours for it if they can in favour of inexperienced but cash rich options.

Go figure the motive....

Sooner or later I'll simply have to give in and pay for a rating, either that or give in and let Flybe shaft me completely!

H.V.

4th Dec 2006, 11:56

Can anyone tell me how the jobsituation looks in the uk for low experienced pilots.

With approx 500 total flying hours (no jet or multicrew experience), I think it should be possible to find a job in the UK. I am looking for a multi crew (2p)job. Any aircraft/place is of interest.

Can any of you flying guys give me ideers/information?

Thanks a lot :-)

Craggenmore

4th Dec 2006, 12:11

This web site is a good place to start...

http://www.ppjn.com

Why not phone up the airlines direct? I can't give you a job - they can..!

Flight International also do a fantastic "Airliner Directory" that they will actually send direct to your house if you phone up and order the 3 back issues. More names and addresses that you know what to do with.

Or try BMI Regional - they are looking for crew, especially right now...

badboy raggamuffin

24th Jan 2007, 18:28

Greetings all,

me is fast approachin the end of my IR, MCC set for next month and am beginning to tink bout looking for a job with a uk operator. Will join the large group of 200 hrs pilots looking for work. Am prepared to fly any kind of plane, have no big ideas for flying a 747 just yet, will be happy flying something like a seneca as air taxi to start off with. Can move anywhere.
So far have devised the following dubious lines of attack-

Plan A- Try n get on the CTC wings ATP scheme. Not such a good idea at mo, as is currently not accepting applications. Anyone got any news on this situation? Why the case and will it be a changing soon?

Plan B-Apply direct to airlines. What is the best way to do this?
first task above all I reckon is to get a list from somewhere of all the commercial aircraft operators that operate in the uk. Anyone know where I can find such a list?
Once I have such a list, plans are to research each one and either apply on line or mail drop all of them, with CV and covering letter. Follow up each one with a phone call or an e-mail each month. Keep track of all corespondance, and keep on hassling them. What is the best way to hassle them, e-mails, phone calls, or even camping out on doorsteps?

Plan C- buy a type rating and then try with the TR. How does this work, for example, when you by a tr of someone, eg 737 or something, will they be able to line you up with an airline? Or is it just a case of getting one, then continuing with the CVs until something happens? Not really an option to be honest, as not enough money. will only really consider buying a tr if it comes with a garuanteed job, as will need to take out a loan.

Are there anyother things I can do, or will it just be a case of perserverence with the Cvs and e-mails? Ive heard for example that a lot of people get in through personal contacts. Could try and work a couple of those, but dont think much will result. Have heard on here that the CV sending is mainly a waste of time, but short of stalking an airlines head of recruitment to get to know them personally cant see many other options.

Plan D- get instructor rating and gain hours, whilst continuing to send out CVs and hounding airlines.

What do people out there think of my ideas? Any other ways of approaching the situation that I havent thought of?

Also, would it be foolish sticking only to uk operators, or could anything be gained by widening my search worldwide? Id imagine i have more chance with the uk, but would a foreign be at all interested in taking on a 200hrs british pilot who doesnt even speak the local language?

Baboon Boy

24th Jan 2007, 18:36

Ill take you on mate

AIR BABOON, always looking for more monkeys!

MIKECR

24th Jan 2007, 20:45

Is Air Baboon another low cost carrier? Will I be required to pay for TR? line training? uniform? to work?.........add infinitum!??

Sounds like a lot of bananas if you ask me!

Superpilot

24th Jan 2007, 21:22

Are you really on the dole?

That's not helpful!

Good sensible plan by the way, no one's going to fault it. Trouble is, it's the same f****** plan the rest us have!

MIKECR

24th Jan 2007, 21:28

"Good sensible plan by the way, no one's going to fault it. Trouble is, it's the same f****** plan the rest us have!"

Thats the best reply i've read in ages!:D :ok:

Floppy Link

26th Jan 2007, 12:30

...first task above all I reckon is to get a list from somewhere of all the commercial aircraft operators that operate in the uk. Anyone know where I can find such a list?...

try here PPJN (http://www.ppjn.com)

Baboon Boy

27th Jan 2007, 22:43

Im serious about air baboon people,

check out my website:

www.flybaboo.com (http://www.flybaboo.com)

A bonafide airline I think youll find.

timzsta

29th Jan 2007, 19:49

Dear Sir / Madame

I regret to inform you that on this occasion you have been unsuccessfull in recruiting me into your airline. Due to the number of job offers I have received I cannot go into any further detail regarding this matter.

May I take this opportunity to thank you for your interest and wish you every success in finding the pilot you want.

Yours sincerely

Timzsta

One day I will send that for real!!!:ugh:

Pilot Pete

30th Jan 2007, 07:48

That sir, is absolutely brilliant.:D I hope you do send it when the time is right!:E

PP

PAPI-74

30th Jan 2007, 19:33

Badboy

Instruct for a bit. It's the best fun you will have with your clothes on. Teach Night and IMC to keep your hand in.

Do Not fall into the trap of paying for the TR. We already have to pay for an MCC which is a fairly new requirement.
Lots of pilots fail get jobs anyway as they attend interviews with the attitude that they are intitled to a job. This does not get them far. You have to earn it, not buy it.......

bbe.ditzy

30th Jan 2007, 19:55

Sooner or later I'll simply have to give in and pay for a rating, either that or give in and let Flybe shaft me completely!

Please don't do it!!!!.. I have first hand experience of the Flybe school of shafting and its not pretty. :rolleyes:

However, having said that I've heard that they are pretty desperate for 146 crew so if you do decide to cross to the darkside its best to approach them as a freelancer.. you get paid a lot more for your trouble and can have some imput into your DO etc.

come fly

23rd Feb 2007, 22:23

Anyone kmow what the Uk is like for first jobs???

StraightLevel

24th Feb 2007, 08:00

Hi there,

Presume you mean pilot jobs.

I'm not in a position to give you an indepth reply but i'm sure someone else with more knowledge on the subject will later, but as i see it it's not great.

I don't know how you guys train but in the UK there are basically two ways, Integrated or Modular.

The guys who come through an Integrated course successfully mostly get recomended to certain airlines by their training provider and most succeed in gaining employment after a few interviews, but some schools are better at getting their graduates interviews than others.

The Modular route is the less expensive way to train but you are left to your own devices when you qualify with regard to getting interviews and it is not easy getting an interview on your own with no experience.
As far as I am led to believe most airlines recieve hundreds of unsolicited CV's through the post/email on a weekly basis without advertising any positions so as you can imagine it's a bit of a lottery as to if you get a call off of an unsolicited CV.

A lot of people become instructors to build their hours which does open a few more doors to them but from what i understand it's still not easy to get a start with the airlines.

There are people who pay a lot of cash to do a type rating on the hope that it will get them a position but i have no idea how good a path this is to go down. Some guys who after paying to do a type rating will work for ridiculously low pay with a low cost carrier which many feel are degrading general terms and conditions in the industry.

So as you can see it depends on what type of training course you have done and where at, but overall i would say that it is very difficult to get your first job in the UK.

Hope this is of use.

How is the job market in Australia?

Regards,

StraightLevel.

scroggs

24th Feb 2007, 12:51

come fly Firstly, you must have the right to live and work in UK. Unless your parents are British - or from another EU country - it's not easy to establish that right. Secondly, you must have a JAA licence. CASA licences are not acceptable in Europe, just as JAA licences are not acceptable in Australia. Unlike Australian airlines, however, EU-based companies do not generally discriminate against pilots who have obtained a converted licence with exemptions for their current qualifications.

Once you have sorted out the right to live and work here, and the appropriate licences, the jobs market in UK - contrary to the impression StraightLevel gives - is better than it has ever been. The great majority of graduates from the various flying schools are finding reasonable flying jobs within 6 months of graduation. Most of those will be straight on to jets, unlike the Australian practice of requiring a new pilot to spend 5 years in the bush on singles then another 5 on an antedeluvian twin TP before being considered fit to darken the door of a jet operating company! Why? Simple: in UK there are around 8000 jet jobs. In Australia, probably little more than 1000.

Scroggs

Cavallier

24th Feb 2007, 13:01

Without a doubt option (d) mate. Am enjoing the shiney end of an A330 and loving it. At last check the 10 guys I have ever instructed with, 9 gained jet jobs and one a turboprop job after around two years of instructing or charter flying. You will improve your flying have a ball and meet loads of top blokes who you will remain in touch with for ages and enjoy the old times over a beer................yes CAT3C I will be emailing you soon and will be back in the UK in 2 weeks for a beer!:)

The Cav:cool:

Jester2

24th Feb 2007, 19:52

I rarely post but feel compelled to do so, I agree with the cavalier gentleman above. This was the route i took..................and boy did i enjoy the career step ladder.#!

From my limited experience i find this being one of the best and job abundant times the industry has seen for many years.

If i may be so bold as to offer a thought ........... be realistic in your outlook with reference to applying for jobs. There are many employment opportunities out there that will lead to greater things - but no matter what you fly - 152 - king air - A340. They all have one thing in common - They ALL fly! And you will take experience and skill from one to the next.

I for one had some of the most enjoyable flying experiences in my career flying an air ambulance from the isle of man.......

I wish you all well ...................and please........................don't pay for that TR - I haven't had to - ever. (and I'm by no means special)

Jester

Sh#ts and Giggles

StraightLevel

25th Feb 2007, 05:51

I stand corrected:bored:

the term "erronous mental model" springs to mind.

StraightLevel.:)

pilotho

14th Mar 2007, 18:33

Hi,

I am soon to finish uni and i have read in many articles that one should try and look for unadvertised jobs.

I have only got a PPL with roughly 55hours so do you think it is worth sending out cover letters and cvs to recruitment departments at airlines? sort of like showing my enthusiasm and introducing myself.

I also recently met an employee at first choice and he said that he could pass my details onto the right department. i told him about my low hours and lack of flying exprience but he told me that the airline actually recruits graduates for pilot positions.

what do you guys think?

ppl_student

14th Mar 2007, 18:57

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

portsharbourflyer

15th Mar 2007, 23:37

Pilotho,
Sponsorships are now pretty much non-existent in the UK.
There is the CTC Wings scheme which is very close to a sponsorship, (the loan is in your name I believe) there is the JN Somers GAPAN award (only one award a year).

Stanziel

13th May 2007, 12:42

I am about to start my professional pilot training modularly, and I'm wondering whether to do go for instucting afterwards, or if it is viable to get an airline/commercial job after gaining 200-250 hours and a 'frozen' ATPL.

According to numerous flight schools I've spoken to, they say "go straight for a job!" :ok:

It makes a huge difference financially as if I am aiming for a job, I'll do my IR instead of my instructor license and do the ATPL while I am building hours. If I go for instructor. I'll wait with the IR and do the ATPL while instucting.

What do you reckon'?

Can one get a job on 200 hours and a frozen ATPL??? :confused:

Thanks,
Stanzie

PPL152

13th May 2007, 13:19

You can try reading some posts

here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=149212

or here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149213

until someone replies with a relevant answer!

Regards & good luck.

dontpressthat

13th May 2007, 13:33

Hi stan... My personal view is that before you embark on any advanced training your best off to complete the ATPL's. You will need to have them or CPL exams passed eventually if you wish to make a career of it so sooner the better I would say.
Also, when I did my ATPL's a couple of years ago there were several students who didnt make the grade and had to drop out and forget an aviation career. It would be a shame if you invested all that cash and then couldnt get the relevant academic results required.

Personally I did, class 1 medi.. PPL.. ATPL theory... hours building.. CPL/ME.. IR.
Its worked out nicely, although you could do the IR before the CPL which brings the cost of CPL down a little.

Hope that helps.

DPT

CAT3C AUTOLAND

13th May 2007, 13:35

Firstly welcome to the world of aviation.

This is a question that everyone wants to know the answer to, and it is quite difficult to answer. You must research, which I am sure you have, what options are open to you when you have finished.

It is not unheard of to step straight into an airline job after finishing your training. However, on saying that, these people who do this tend to be a minority, simply because of how competitive this industry is. With the airline I work for, they are taking people straight out flight school, and poping them in the right hand seat of an Airbus, so it can be done, and has been for many years.

Its a good idea to have a plan B and maybe even C up your sleeve for when you have finished, and build this into you financial planning.

From a personal point of view, I think it is very important to stay current. Now, whether that is instructing, banner towing, being a tug pilot, doing aerial photography, it all helps and it keeps you in the loop. I was an instructor, and still am, and thought it was a great way to keep current. It is one of the best jobs I have ever had, and it certainly helped to keep me fresh and in the loop. On saying that though, its not everyones cup of tea, but I certainly enjoy it.

All the best with it, and most of all enjoy it, its a lot of fun.

Wee Weasley Welshman

13th May 2007, 13:49

Do bear in mind that every year hundreds of Wannbes like you embark on this road and never ever become professionally employed pilots.

More people train than there are jobs for. You may be one of them.

You need to do a good deal of research before you embark on the investment of serious money. This is a good place to start. From your post on this thread I believe that you have not yet done enough research. Talking to a few companies that sell flight training IS NOT research.

Be very careful.

WWW

Stanziel

13th May 2007, 14:38

You need to do a good deal of research before you embark on the investment of serious money....From your post on this thread I believe that you have not yet done enough research.

Wee Weasley Welshman, thanks for your warning, but I want to assure you that there are few people with 10 hours who know as much about the aviation industry as me: Both of my parets and my brother are pilots. My mother was a flight instructor, and my dad as been an f-5 pilot, a Boeing 737-200 pilot for 30 years, a captain, and a Chief Flight Instructor at one of the most respectable pilot schools in the world; he has around 20,000 hours logged.

In addition to that, I have surfed the web, emailed, telephoned, and spoken to so many people, schools, and regulations so I know a good deal about the aviation industy (I believe I have been in contact with ; but I am sure that if I explained this at every pprune forum I post in, no-body would bother reading it.

Still, even though I have done a lot of research, you can't get ahold of all the information that I want.
Somebody's else opinion, research, or experience can be a lot more usefull than several hours at the computer.

Also, dontpressthatbutton, I have no problem gettin high mark academically, and the order in which you did it:

class 1 medi.. PPL.. ATPL theory... hours building.. CPL/ME.. IR.

is the way I intend to do it if I don't go for instructing. Thank you for the advice.

Stanziel

13th May 2007, 15:30

You need to do a good deal of research before you embark on the investment of serious money....From your post on this thread I believe that you have not yet done enough research.

WWW, thanks for your warning, but I can assure you that I have done years of research. I probably know a lot more than the majority with 10 hours of flying do; but if I was going to try to explain this at every post, no-body would care to read it.

In addition to all the research I have done, then both of my parents + my brother are pilot. My mother was a flight instructor and is currently trying to get an airline job. My father was an f-5 pilot, has been an airline pilot for over 30 years, has been a CAA examiner, and the Chief Flight Instructor on one of the most respectable pilots schools in the world (he has around 20,000 hours logged).

So through all of my research (I have emailed, phoned, spoken to, and researched hundreds of schools and other sources all over the world) and through all of what my parents have told me, I don't think I am in need of any more research.

Still, the more good advice I can get, the better. I think there are a lot of good information to be picked up at PPRuNe, and I agree that speaking to a few schools is not enough. Therefore I am consulting the people who are actually in the process of getting a job or know about it.

Oh, dontpressthat, thanks for warning me about the ATPL, but I don't have any problems getting high marks academically. I like the order in which you did your training, I intend on doing the same.

Stanzie

Wee Weasley Welshman

14th May 2007, 10:21

OK. I did not suspect that you had family members in the industry and were therefore reliably informed about it.

Your initial post of:

I am about to start my professional pilot training modularly, and I'm wondering whether to do go for instucting afterwards, or if it is viable to get an airline/commercial job after gaining 200-250 hours and a 'frozen' ATPL.
According to numerous flight schools I've spoken to, they say "go straight for a job!"

Suggested that you are a newbie with no clue about training or airline recruitment.

Your Mum and Dad should be able, as commercial pilots, to advise you in detail about training value and recruitment.

I find your post therefore curious.

You are asking very very general questions when your parents are commercial pilots amongst other family member who are also commercial pilots. I would expect you to ask quite specific questions.

As in, should I go to school A or B. Rather than should I go Integrated or Instructing.

But carry on.

This forum is yours to use. The more advice the better. But your Dad seems a hell of a good source of advice to me.

Best of luck,

WWW

speedrestriction

14th May 2007, 10:43

Ask your father/mother for the phone number of a relatively recently hired F/O in their company. They should have a good idea of what life is like at the pointy end of recruitment. From my own experience I would say that if you go to a good flight school and do well, you stand a good chance of obtaining employment for an airline within a year of finishing. This obviously depends on recruitment remaining as hot as it is at the moment. I emphasize "chance" because there is always an element of "right place, right time". You can study until the small hours of the morning and you can push yourself to really excel on every training flight but at the end of the day, nobody owes you a job. You'll still have to go out there and manage to sell yourself.

sr

Stanziel

14th May 2007, 12:27

WWW, the thing with having two parents in the industry and still not being able to know whether I can get a job afterwards is simple:

1: They never applied for a job when having less than 1000 hours (one was a flight instuctor first, the other was a fighter pilot)

2: Their "low-hour era" was a different era from mine. The aviation industry changes from year to year.

3. None of them are in an airline at the moment. They are both trying to get jobs (which can be rather hrd when you're 63, as my dad is).

4. Imagine how different impression my father gets when he applies for a job, 63 years old, 20,000 hours, and has been flying for 49 years; compared to me who would be 19 years old, 200 hours, and flying for 1-2 years!!!!! :{ I don't stand a chance, it seems!

SinBin

14th May 2007, 13:10

Rubbish mate, you do stand every chance!!

270 hours TT + simulator time all part-time modular

I start at large LHR airline on the A320 in a few weeks. I do not pay for the TR either, and I was sitting very frustrated 3 months ago with no lead except a SSTR, which I canned at the 11th hour.

Stanziel

14th May 2007, 14:57

Well Done, SinBin! :D Congratulations.

Did you apply for a lot companies?

Do you know anybody else who did it with (no offense) such few hours and no TR?

Again, well done!
Stanzie

Wee Weasley Welshman

14th May 2007, 15:35

Whats your financial situation? It makes a big difference.

WWW

Blueskyrich

14th May 2007, 15:51

Gotta agree with WWW.

I don't think the matter is helped when there are articles in prominent magazines, such as Pilot I noticed recently, promoting the fact that the 'frozen' ATPL with 250hrs is really all you need to walk into a job these days.

Yep, it happens - but from what I've read, you have to be very lucky and very organised in how you approach and court airlines. Basing such a massive expenditure on the sole expectation of getting a job in this way is risky business.

That said, I have done a similar thing in terms of my plans - however, the crucial factor in my approach is that I already have a safe, solid and reasonably paid job. In the event that it doesn't come off without further training/expense/time (which is very likely), I'm not going to bankrupt myself in the process and I can afford to take the risk, so to speak.

Look at all the angles, speak to as many different people as you can and consider the implications in the cold light of day. For reference, this forum/website has probably been the single biggest source of information I've had, and it has proved invaluable in getting me to this point. Hopefully one day, I'll be able to put back into this what I've taken out - and when that day comes, I'll be a very happy bunny indeed!

Stanziel

14th May 2007, 22:48

My financial structure isn't a lot. I know you are thinking that I have two pilot parents, but one of them was very poor financially:sad:!

Put it like this, I can most likely afford to do PPL, hour building, ATPL theor, CPL, MCC, ME and either IR or the instructor course, but I would probably really struggle to pay for both:\. Which is why I want to plan ahead!

In my situation, it is probably best to aim for instructing for at least half a year as, at least, I'll have an income and gain hours (its just that I absolutely stink at teaching); and then I don't risk standing there with an IR and no job:{ (whether airline or instructing). It just seems so perfect to jump straight into an airline job, but you just can't risk it always.

Anyway, I have almost a year to make up my mind and gain opinions before I decide on IR or instructing.

If anybody else have anymore opinions, I welcome the open heartedly

Thanks guys,
Stanzie

AlphaMale

14th May 2007, 23:22

Put it like this, I can most likely afford to do PPL, hour building, ATPL theor, CPL, MCC, ME and either IR or the instructor course, but I would probably really struggle to pay for both.

I still can't understand how 18 year old boys can afford to pay for all this? I am 25 and still saving. Only now I should be looking to get on the property ladder too. :bored: ... Wish I had £25k/£30k burning a hole in my pocket like you have. :(

Good luck mate, I'd suggest doing the FI rating to keep yourself flying should you not get the call from a carrier. I'd hate to pass my IR with not a penny to my name and then struggle to keep current. As said above keep flying and current and enjoy it - not flying for 12 months after passing your IR and then getting a sim ride with easyjet would be a disaster I'd imagine. :ooh:

Keep us up to date and listen to your parents as they seem like a wealth of information if you ask me.

Wee Weasley Welshman

15th May 2007, 06:18

I'm not at all sure how attractive an employee you will be as an 18yr old who is crap at teaching and has 250hrs TT in his logbook.

Don't go making the mistake that doing the FI course will guarantee you a job as an instructor - it may well not. It may at best get you some ad hoc work in the summer months at a school far from home. It takes quite a long time therefore to recoup the £5k+ that you spend on the FI course.

There is an economic slowdown happening in the UK. One of the very first and very easiest savings people can make is to forget about that PPL course for another year or let the PPL and club membership fees lapse this year..

On a more general note I think you are too young.

Unless you get picked up for a sponsorship or get onto a CTC style scheme at that age it is very hard to pass an airline intereview. Tell me about a time when you dealt with a difficult situation/told someone some bad news/diffused a confrontational situation... Tell us you best and worst days of your life/How would you handle a sobbing cabin crew downroute who has just been dumped by text message and wants to get off?/A member of your crew has reported smelling of alchol - what would you do and how would you do it?/ Blah Blah Blah

At 18 there are only so many examples you can give and only so much credibility you can project.

You'd have to be incredibly mature and good at interviews to outshine the other candidates who have a few more years, University and other careers under their belt.

Just a thought.

WWW

Hufty

15th May 2007, 08:37

You should listen carefully to what WWW has to say.

I managed to get an airline job with 270TT but I was VERY LUCKY and managed to get in at just the right time - it wouldn't have been possible 6 months before or after I joined.

If you go to one of the big schools and shell out all that money for an integrated course plus rating then you might be OK (provided you do well, keep friends with them and have the personal qualities too). With modular training you might need to look at an FI rating too. I went modular and never instructed, but people I know who did really enjoyed it and felt that it really improved their flying. At 18 you shouldn't really feel under any pressure to do it all really quickly!

Good luck. As others have said though, your family connections could be a winner for you - for advice but also for good people to call for a job when you've finished your training....

Superpilot

15th May 2007, 10:49

Hi,

I fully echo Keith's comments. I'm not sure what your state of mind is. Maybe you're thinking as you have pilot blood running through you, it only makes sense to start pilot training at age 18 and not even think about another career. This may have been the case for your parents and possibly even your brother but it is a totally different game from what it was even 5 years ago. I’ve witnessed the whole wannabe scene for the past 7-8 years. I know about every sponsorship that ever took place and every minor and major event in professional ‘wannabeism’. I know that there will always be opportunities. I have (I hope) realistic expectations of this career (starting it; earning a living waiting for it; pros/cons of various situations to be in).

Being young (and not too young), eager, committed and hard working is only half of it. The other half is about being financially secure (before, during and after training). Might sound a bit basic, but money is the most divisive factor in becoming an airline pilot now regardless of how good a pilot you are. It's not just about the cash to pay for a (God-forsaken) Self Sponsored Type Rating but the ability to be able to take a financial 'hit' as you try to maintain your license, pay the rent, feed yourself/your dependants and generally do all those things humans do.

A bit like Keith, I came out of fulltime education at 18, and thought I was ready and happy to take on everything the aviation world had to throw at me in order to become an Airline Pilot. PPL in the bag, I remained unemployed for 9 months thinking that I’d find the cash somehow or get lucky. Started a job I really didn’t want to be in. I applied for sponsorships for the first couple of years as I saved cash. Funny to look at now - all those forecasts of saving £30-35k between ages 18-21! When I turned 22, it dawned on me how ridiculous it was to think I'd be flying at such a young age. It does happen though, but only for those with rich daddies or those insane enough to take out £60k loans putting their parent’s property on the line.

For the past 6-7 years, I have been working in another trade (which I had no interest in, in the beginning). I go on about my current financial situation a lot on here, but the truth is without the trade I’m in now, I would NOT HAVE A CHANCE with my current outgoings which include a mortgage. I’m still yet to turn 26 and am on a respectable salary far above any FO working for the airlines. Granted, my current earnings won’t last forever as demand for my skills drops but it has been enough to do almost everything a 25 year old could want from life at this stage, including enough spare cash to start fulltime professional training. My approach has been different to those who have struggled to become airline pilots. I have struggled to become semi-wealthy, which will now enable me to become an airline pilot, a little bit comfortably I might add. I’m due to start now in September after my final ATPL exams.

Delayed by 7 years, but what have I lost? The truth is I’ve gained far more than I’ve lost. I’ve lost 7 years of flying a jet and that’s about it. I have gained a fallback career, hundreds of contacts who would be happy to give me a job, no debt at all and most importantly knowledge about something other than flying because realistically speaking there is lots more to life than flying.

There is nothing outrageous about starting at age 18, but I urge you to look past your love for aviation for a minute (and maybe even your roots) and try to establish yourself as a well rounded individual totally aware of what the world has to offer you. You never know what you might gain. Good luck to you.

Stanziel

15th May 2007, 19:25

I suppose it is smart to have a backup and to have tried something else; but then again, I don't see how smart it is to take a degree at eighteen, if you have wanted to fly for several years anyway. After all, it is estimated that in costs, equipment, and living expenses, a degree will cost £23-40 K! Is it just me, or is that almost the same as it will cost to become an FI? (According to my parents) it is probably just as easy to get a job as an FI as a graduate job! To get double up in debt, doesn't seem like the smartest move to me!:\

Not everybody is as lucky as you, Superpilot, to be able to find something that you can earn more money at than as a first officer and possibly enjoy; but good for you that you did:D

On a personal note about me in order to defend my age:

I have already "attended" uni (via distance learning); I started when I was 16! But I have just decided (together with my good source of advice - my parents) that it is much better to focus on getting a pilot job first, and then I can finish off my degrees.

On life experience, I have plenty as I have lived all over the world, and I have lived through things that nobody should experience:sad: (I have really bad luck:ugh:), some things which very people will experience throughout their whole lifetime!

I may have just turned 18 a month ago, but I am educated as and have worked as an aromatherapy, massage, beauty, and spa therapist; in addition to having trained as professional dancer; and my main occupation is a cosmetic tattooist!

I have started one business, and I am currently starting another; but I don't have money burning in my pocket as it is very hard to make a business pay off in the first few years, but I should be able to (with help) to get to FI.

I am capable of more than most people as I have, at the same time, been doing 3 A-levels, 1 Nat. Dip. (equivalent to 3 A-levels), 3 NVQs, a degree part-time, and been starting my business.

Since I was 15, people have assumed I was 22-23 because they though I was mature.

So please don't make the mistake of judging somebody by their age!:=
You can't deny that I have probably experienced more than what you assumed when you heard I was 18

AlphaMale

15th May 2007, 23:22

Sorry to just rip your post chew it up and spit it out but here goes;

I want to assure you that there are few people with 10 hours who know as much about the aviation industry as me.

Says who? A very bold statement to make there. I have less than 7 hours PIC and currently reading through my ATPL books to prepare myself in advance. I'm not the one asking can a be a pilot at 19 with 200/250hrs on my log book.

Both of my parets and my brother are pilots. My mother was a flight instructor, and my dad as been an f-5 pilot, a Boeing 737-200 pilot for 30 years, a captain, and a Chief Flight Instructor at one of the most respectable pilot schools in the world; he has around 20,000 hours logged.

With those links you shouldn't need to ask any questions here really.

In my situation, it is probably best to aim for instructing for at least half a year as, at least, I'll have an income and gain hours (its just that I absolutely stink at teaching); and then I don't risk standing there with an IR and no job (whether airline or instructing). It just seems so perfect to jump straight into an airline job, but you just can't risk it always.

You're happy to pay £5k for an FI and only earn money from it for 6 months?

After all, it is estimated that in costs, equipment, and living expenses, a degree will cost £23-40K!

Been there got the T-shirt and didn't spend anywhere near £23k.
£1,300pa fees x 3
Living expences for 8 months x 3

(According to my parents) it is probably just as easy to get a job as an FI as a graduate job!

Is that right? ... now compare the graduate job salary to an FI's pay (let me help you out - The FI's pay if half of what I was earning in my job in my 1st year as a graduate)

I have already "attended" uni (via distance learning); I started when I was 16! But I have just decided (together with my good source of advice - my parents) that it is much better to focus on getting a pilot job first, and then I can finish off my degrees

So you attended Uni at 16?

On life experience, I have plenty as I have lived all over the world, and I have lived through things that nobody should experience.

Living in a different country doesn't mean you know how to handle a situation at all.

I may have just turned 18 a month ago, but I am educated as and have worked as an aromatherapy, massage, beauty, and spa therapist.

In addition to having trained as professional dancer; and my main occupation is a cosmetic tattooist!

From this I am guessing you're a lady?

I have started one business, and I am currently starting another; but I don't have money burning in my pocket as it is very hard to make a business pay off in the first few years.

Do you want to tell us what the business is and the name of the company?

Thanks for warning me about the ATPL, but I don't have any problems getting high marks academically.

I am capable of more than most people as I have, at the same time, been doing 3 A-levels, 1 Nat. Dip. (equivalent to 3 A-levels), 3 NVQs, a degree part-time, and been starting my business.

What are the qualifications in?

All those qualifications / life experience / running businesses / living all over the world and you've just turned 18 last month?

Since I was 15, people have assumed I was 22-23 because they though I was mature.

Being over 6 foot when I was 15 and being built like a brick sh't house always made people think I was 18/19 too but for somebody to add 5 years to your age would make them a very bad judge of age - make sure these people don't sell drink to 12 year olds.

You can't deny that I have probably experienced more than what you assumed when you heard I was 18.

Tell us about it.

I can assure you that I have done years of research.

And then you come here and ask;

I am about to start my professional pilot training modularly, and I'm wondering whether to do go for instucting afterwards, or if it is viable to get an airline/commercial job after gaining 200-250 hours and a 'frozen' ATPL.
According to numerous flight schools I've spoken to, they say "go straight for a job!"

Something just doesn't add up here :rolleyes:

Stanziel

16th May 2007, 00:54

That's it. This is really getting annoying!

I have never been much for forums, but I though skype might be different as it is made up of pilots. But, geez. I ask a simple question in order to get as many opinions as possible. I try to make it as short as possible without including my whole life, with some reference to my situation, but still as general as possible so that others may gather from it.

Yes, I have done a lot of research and spoken to a lot of sources to get info on the topic I have posted here; but I figured, the more, the merrier, and (hopefully) the more realistic.

Instead, I am accused of a) having done too little research b) not being mature enough and c) being a LIAR!

Sorry AlphaMale, if for the past few years I have worked my ass of and, in periods, only slept a few hours a night; so that I could achieve "all that" despite only having turned 18 last month! If you have a problem with that, then that is your problem, so please don't post it on PPRuNe when I am just trying to get different opinions.

If you've got nothing better to do than to sit around on PPRuNe critising others, then perhaps you should study those ATPL books a little bit more so that you can quicker into the industry, and then you can at least say your opinions straight to the person's face!

I've know plenty of people with 10 hours logged, and I've known a lot more than them about the industy. Perhaps that's just a coincidence, but like you say, with my "links" I should know so much that I am not even posting questions here.

Yes, I would pay £5K for an FI and only work 6 months if I happen to get another job. If you are at a busy enough school, you could earn almost £10K and fly 500 hours in 6 months (don't question it, its from my "links":p)

Yes, I am a "lady", and what does that matter?????:* Wanna start a new debate?

I am 5'2" and weigh 46 kg! That ain't tall, and I have a tiny face!
I don't necessarily look very old for my age. In fact, people who just look at me without talking to me, have guessed I am 14 (and that was withing half a year ago).

And those figures (£23-40) I got for Uni, I think I got them from either a UK government site, or one of the more respectable unis in the UK; so go and question them instead.

The FI's salary may be half of a graduate, but a number of graduated don't get a job until after 6 months. After 6 months as an FI, you may be lucky enough to get an FO job! I'd take my chances with the FI

Again, I did start with Uni at 16!

Living in different countries may not make me able to handle a situation (try being a cosmetic tattooist or a therapist though - that really makes you able to handle a situation), but being 25 or 45 does not neccessarily make you able either. But it is a lot more likely that you are able to handle more after moving around and seeing different cultures than if you just grew up on the same couch (then again, it depends from person to person, but this is what research claims).

And no, I don't care for giving away the names of my businesses. As it says at the botom of every forum: anonymous forums

So I think it adds up to ask about something like this as we are all humans, and my parents can't know everything, and therefore it is usefull to consult others as well.
But what I don't think adds up is why you are spending so much time critising people whom you should reading your ATPL.

I must say, that I am quite dissapointed with PPRuNe - or at least the attitute in which I have received some answers. PPRuNe can and have been used for so much good, but it is quite dissapointing to find out exactly how little encouraging some other pilots are. Saying that, I have received a lot of good, usefull answers as well, and I do really appreciate it. Thanks:ok:

Stanzie

sir.pratt

16th May 2007, 03:43

Amway doesn't count as a business.

Luckily Stanzie, as you're only 18, although some people think you're 14, and others swear you're 23, you have many years ahead of you to get over Pprune.

Why doesn't your instructor father teach you to fly?

scroggs

16th May 2007, 08:18

Wee Weasley Welshman, thanks for your warning, but I want to assure you that there are few people with 10 hours who know as much about the aviation industry as me: Both of my parets and my brother are pilots. My mother was a flight instructor, and my dad as been an f-5 pilot, a Boeing 737-200 pilot for 30 years, a captain, and a Chief Flight Instructor at one of the most respectable pilot schools in the world; he has around 20,000 hours logged.

I'm sorry, but you come across as someone who feels that aviation somehow owes you a living, and that your provenance means that you shouldn't have to do any work or research to get there. It frankly doesn't matter who your parents are, especially if you don't ask them for advice or information - and it definitely appears that you know a lot less about aviation than you think you do.

You need to do a lot more reading and listening, and a lot less boasting about your achievements. Arrogance and misplaced - especially vicarious - pride have no place in aviation.

Scroggs

Token Bird

16th May 2007, 13:28

In my situation, it is probably best to aim for instructing for at least half a year as, at least, I'll have an income and gain hours (its just that I absolutely stink at teaching)
Stanziel, if you absolutely stink at teaching then I do not recommend you become a flying instructor just to build your hours for a few months before moving onto an airline. I would also be careful about saying things like that on this forum. Us 'hour-building' instructors have enough unpleasantness and negativity to deal with from some of the career instructors, and find it hard to convince them that we are actually decent instructors. The attitude that you are taking towards instruction, ie, that it is very much a means to an end, does not do us any favours and just give them more ammunition.
From a practical point of view, if you are unable to afford both, then go for the IR. If you get an FI rating then work as an instructor I can almost guarantee you will not be able to save money towards the IR. I can barely afford food and petrol on my FI salary! I don't know where the figure £10000 in 6 months came from - I find that highly unrealistic.
TB

AlphaMale

16th May 2007, 18:24

I don't know where the figure £10000 in 6 months came from - I find that highly unrealistic.

I think she thinks OAT will take her on with 250hrs and 0hrs instructing and pay her £25k pa to instruct the Ab-inito students :8 ... I guess that works out at around £10k take home for 6 months?

But she has done research :ok:

pilotho

16th May 2007, 18:59

I understand what kind of situation Stanziel is in but it does seem to me you could be arrogant and boost a little too much about yourself.

Remember that when you are in the cockpit, that person would need to work with you and you would need to work with him as a team. If the interviewer doesn't think that you work well as a team then I am afraid very few airline would hire you.

It is good that you are planning ahead and trying to get information from people but try and listen to other people's advice and don't think that people are discrimnating against you either about your age or sex. You are bound to get people like that and the way you reply may suggest to people you have a short fuse. Also, the fact that you thought about instructing but know you stink at teaching doesn't seem like you have thought alot about it!

I have also been 18 and although i am only 20 now, i feel that going to uni is a very good thing. You will meet friends, learn about yourself and work with people.

It's your choice at the end of the day, but I feel just because one person has a go at you doesn't mean you neglect advice from 9 other people.

Wee Weasley Welshman

17th May 2007, 08:59

In my very best month as a PPL flying instructor I took home £800. That was over 100hrs in a month in a sweltering PA38 cockpit and it wasn't big and it wasn't clever. In Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb I was routinely taking home £450 a month. Even living at home not far from the airfield it was a struggle to live - let alone save.

Repaying the FI rating (which I didn't have to do as it was a freebie from the CAA) would have taken at least a year of flying.

It got me 1000 instructional hours though. And that got me a FI job at a commercial flying school in Jerez. Which was the second rung on the ladder. So in the end it was worth it. And the golden PPL instructing summer of 1999 was one that I will cherish for the laughs, the friends and the scares that occurred.

So its not the worst plan in the world to become an FI. But at 19 you won't be very good. I started part time instructing at the age of 20 whilst still in Uni. Under the auspices of the Air Cadets it was a good introduction to the craft of teaching at such a young age.

Nevertheless when it came to teaching PPL student who might typically be successful 40 year old businessmen, retiring professionals taking up a hobby or some mad-keen penny-strapped 25yr old airline Wannabe, it was VERY VERY difficult to be 22 years old.

To say !no, that wasn't good enough, I'm not sending you solo". Thats just cost them a couple of hundred quid! They perhaps don't like being told No. They are angry and embarassed.

There is a lot to it.

You have to give your student a bollocking for failing to prepare as tasked. But they are still the paying customer.

There is also the constant pressure that they could get lost and kill themselves or crash on landing and burn to death. Its serious stuff. Not fun. Not a hobby.

In your teenage years you just aren't going to be very good at it. Most Chief Flying Instructors and Flying Club owners would agree with me. Therefore you WILL find it hard to get work.

And as I already covered, its hard at your age to be the lucky one at an airline interview as you have so little to talk about and what you do have is so small that its all a bit naff.

Therefore I really do think that you should find something else to do, not necessarily Uni, for the next 2 or 3 years. The come back at it a bit older, wiser and with a hopefully some more money in the bank.

Good luck,
WWW

F.O. 737-800

17th May 2007, 09:23

Wee Weasley Welshman (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=6151) vbmenu_register("postmenu_3293782", true);

There is no point in doing something else for a few years, if you're a pilot you're a pilot. The sooner you start the better and in the present conditions there has never been a better time. I qualified last year at 21 and within 2 weeks I was offered a job flying 737 NG. Still flying the 737 and love it, no regrets!

P.S. No i didn't go to 1 of the big flying schools.

Wee Weasley Welshman

17th May 2007, 09:32

Did you come in through CTC? Or did you SSTR to Ryanair?

WWW

F.O. 737-800

17th May 2007, 09:37

RyanAir, but no longer work for them. Who are currently employed by?

Wee Weasley Welshman

17th May 2007, 11:08

Well its quite unusual to be 21 and on an NG not having come through an Approved course and have already changed employer.

I'm sure you are telling the truth but its odd and I would suggest not a model that other should base their aspirations on.

Cheers

WWW

F.O. 737-800

17th May 2007, 11:19

It was an approved course just modular not intergrated. What is your experience of the industry, current employer ect. Just I think it is very bold of you to suggest to young people that they should not come into flying as soon as possible, when you have not given us any info on your current situation. I am certainly not exceptionel, and in the current climate I would suggest that there hasn't been a better time to get on the road to becoming an airline pilot.

scroggs

17th May 2007, 13:18

FO, WWW's biography is adequately covered on his profile, as is mine. His experience is considerable, and he, as he puts it, was 'the original Pprune Wannabe' several years ago. His credibility is beyond question, as is his knowledge of the FI and low-cost parts of this industry.

Scroggs

Token Bird

17th May 2007, 14:25

in the current climate I would suggest that there hasn't been a better time to get on the road to becoming an airline pilot

If that's the case then why did you join Ryanair? Surely a desperate last resort?

F.O. 737-800

17th May 2007, 14:35

Not at all. It was the first job I was offered and I took it. I went into with the attitude that is was going to be ashort term thing to get some jet hours, and that it would be good experience as it is some of the most challenging jet flying you can do in Europe.

F.O. 737-800

17th May 2007, 14:38

Scroggs, would then you agree with WWW that young people should start flying as soon as possible. Just ask because i'm certain you joined the RAF at a young age?

scroggs

17th May 2007, 15:27

Forgive me, but I don't see WWW urging people to start flying at the youngest age possible - though I do see you doing so. WWW regularly cautions people against automatically going to university without considering the options available to them, and he often points out the financial advantages to other avenues - not least that they may find themselves in a position to take an airline job earlier than those who go to university. That's not the same as recommending that people start flying as soon as they can.

My history is not really relevant. I started flying professionally at 21, having never flown a powered aircraft before. My first solo was in a jet. I had no ambition to be a pilot when I was younger, and had no expectation of being a pilot even when I did apply to the RAF, because I wore (and still wear) glasses. I am an aberration in the business, though not unique or even that uncommon. Flying for me is a profession, not a passion. Therefore I approach the business of wannabes becoming qualified to fly in a pragmatic manner, and remove emotion and passion from the equation - they will not put a roof over your head, or keep the training department off your back.

Scroggs

Wee Weasley Welshman

18th May 2007, 11:43

FO 737-800, everyone here is free to give whatever advice they want. Your point of view is welcome and my own has no greater weight than yours.

I do think 18 is a bit young to be throwing £60k+ at training in the expectation of getting a FI or airline job a year later. If you are anything like me you will be markedly different a person at 22.

At such a young age it is more normal and preferable to be targetting some type of sponsorship/cadetship scheme. In all likelihood CTC. I have flown with several 21/22/23 yr olds in recent years who all came through CTC cadets schemes straight from higher education.

Its a great way to start a career.

I suspect you might have self sponsored at GECAT and been one of the courses that was in the right place at the right time when a couple of airlines, my own orange one included, needed self type rated recruits NEXT WEEK. I flew with one just a month or so back who had seen a £20k course launch him immediately into a major airline on full non-cadet pay with the shot at a command in 3 years at the age of 25. Naturally the grin took hours to punch off his face.

But that sort of luck is very rare.

I can't bring myself to use examples like him, concrete living breathing examples, like yourself to recommend to people at 18 to self sponsor a Frzn ATPL and possibly even Type Rating.

I can't because I have seen so many other over the years, dozens and dozens and dozens fall by the wayside, never qualify or most commonly just run out of money.

It would be very hard to be 20, £45k in debt with a lapsing IR following a year of fruitless job hunting and then witnessing an industry downturn as in 2001 or 1990 which means you don't stand a hope in hell of flying professionaly for the next 5 years. You'd have to go to Uni late, if you could afford to at all, or go and get any old job with a handful of A-levels a few worthless pieces of CAA paper and a lot of broken dreams.

Not easy.

But as you say. The industry is buoyant. Who Dares Wins and all that.

I remain (hopefully) a voice of cautious advice.

Good luck,

WWW