JAA ATPL Theory Study

[Crosswind Limits]

I don't know about anyone else, but so far from 10 exams passed, I found Instruments by far the toughest. I passed on my second attempt - so relieved! :)

What about anyone else?

[Tristar Freak]

All of them except VFR/IFR comms.

AGK nightmare to study for, AirLaw and JAR Ops just horrible. Instruments a bit of a toughie, but no worse than the rest.

[redsnail]

In honesty, the Australian Flight Planning component of their ATPL theory. (4 goes at the rotten paper. In those days, had to do all of them again.)
The Jar? I really thought I had crashed and burned Nav. Time restricted etc... and I passed it first go :)
Then I thought it would be Principles of Flight. Studied my butt off and I passed it first go.

[Squealing Pig]

Definitely both met exams and the plotting section of nav. (Old CAA exams that is)

[RowleyUK]

I tried to start a poll but can't so i'll have to try it this way!!

All I want to know is which part of the training process did you find the hardest??

PPL
ATPL's
CPL
IR
MCC
FI


Would be interesting to know........I have only got the IR left to do!!

[redsnail]

Umm,
it's a toss up between the ATPL theory and the IR. I'm referring to Australia.
Finding the money was pretty bloody hard.
However, the hardest thing was finding a job.

[Artificial Horizon]

PAYING FOR IT!!!

[mad_jock]

I think they all have there moments.

And alot has to do with how you get on with your instructor.

MCC after IR is quite a change. You have been that hyped up flying SPA IR that its quite strange to suddenly off load work onto someone else.

MJ

[witchdoctor]

IR is the hardest, mainly due to the pressure you put yourself under to pass first time, both from a cost point of view and the desire to avoid having to own up to partial passes in job applications. Technically it is probably easier than the CPL skills test, especially as you generally have a reasonable chunk of extra time in the air by then.

MCC is generally a very pleasant and enjoyable part of the process. As MJ points out, it is nice to share the work at last, but it is also fun to be in a (most likely) jet sim and you know that the worst part of the licencing process is behind you. Relax time.

ATPL theory isn't massively difficult to understand on the whole, but there is simply a huge volume of info to absosrb in a short time, and the JAA have a nasty habit of phrasing questions in the most obscure way.

However, all of this is a walk in the park comapared to landing a F/O position straight out of school, unless you are extremely jammy, or have pictures of the chief pilot enjoying the pleasures of four legged animals.;)

[mazzy1026]

Can I be a cheeky git and ask what the hardest part of the PPL was?

Maz

[mad_jock]

With the PPL its different things to different people.

Some find the handling a breeze but struggle on RT and NAV.

But for most the PPL disappears into memory when they start doing more advanced courses. The work load in the CPL and IR is heavier but its different things to what you had previously. The fact that your max point has now increased since you went solo means you are proberly still working as hard as on your PPL but with a great work load. Imagine what it would have been like if you had gone straight from solo to twin IR. Which is why I am waiting to see what the new co-pilot license students out come is going to be.

MJ

[OBK!]

Hardest part? Getting a job it seems...

:rolleyes:

OBK

[carbonfibre]

Finding a good school and paying for it!!!

[tiram]

Hey,
Was interested in what subject people found the hardest in their atpl's? Also was wondering who is sitting their atpl's just now? I would set up a couple of polls just out of interest but i don't know how to do it :O
For everyone out there sitting their atpl's GOOD LUCK

[skyman68]

did not find very hard...only G.N has given me an hard time.
did my course with Bristol and all went well. now I am a JAA pilot and still unemployed!!!

good luck, lucky luk!

[carb]

Instruments can be hard but I sat it today and there were only about 3 Qs on gyros/compasses and nearly 30 on flight directors and GPWS - nice! Almost as easy as Comms.

Airframes/Systems is a huge subject to learn and I'd say General Nav is quite evil too as you're required to not only know how to do all the stuff but do it quickly and accurately.

POF and Met are supposedly tough but I recognised at least half the Qs straight from feedback and that's a great help!

[Jinkster]

Passed them all :D

However, mass and balance, performance I found the hardest of the lot.

Instruments I found ok, met was ok, radio ok

Nav was fairly ok with some niggles

Hope this helps, to be honest they are all hard work even the comms I suppose due to the fact it is easy to fail because of the little room for error

[tiram]

For me met is the killer. With nav i think the magnetic stuff we have to do is a total head f@@k so i'm going to risk it and learn the feedback for compasses. Am finding mass and balance very simple, i hope i don't get a shock in the exam

[loftustb]

All done now thankfully, but the difficult ones were:

Gen Nav (you need to be fast and accurate)
Performance (never really understood it)
Air Law (a load of dry and boring facts)

[mattd2k]

Have just completed Mod 1 with BGS and only tripped up on Met by a couple of percent, which was the one subject I was really worried about. :uhoh:

I think it really depends on the individual. I have found Met such a tricky one to get my head around but yet had no problems with G. Nav, M&B or Flight Planning. The only other subject I was a bit concerned about was Instruments, but in the end it turned out to be not as painful as I thought.

It's on with Mod 2 now so can't comment on the those yet. Only why did Bristol have to start it off with Hydraulics, eughhh!!! :yuk:

MD2K

[Jarvy]

All done last year now CPL(H), hardest for me was Met & Instruments (don't have many in little helicopters)

[Northern Highflyer]

I initially struggled with instruments but found the exam easy in the end. Met was a tough one, especially global climatology.

Currently doing Mod 2 and PoF is the one I am finding the hardest.

[six-sixty]

I am another Bristol Mod-1-er (3 weeks to go...) and I seem to get the worst mock scores on Instruments, mainly because the wording of the questions really leaves me wondering what they are after especially on some of the more philosophical questions on what autopilots are for etc the answers to which seem entirely dependant on how much wine/coffee/brandy/weed the existential poet/examiner had consumed when he/she wrote them .

Nav seems reasonably logical and I seem to be speeding up with practice, then Met. Climatology had me cowering with terror but after a couple of goes thru the Oxford met CD the Bristol notes made loads more sense. I like the way they break each part of the world up and deal with it one at a time - much easier to grasp than showing everything on the globe at the same time.

Anyway time will tell - only 55% of entrants passed Met this month.

Reading off those flight planning graphs is a pain in the asre, I am never accurate enough.

I may be taking a massive gamble by hardly spending any time revising the other subjects at the moment and concentrating on the "big 3"... feedback suggests that these are a bit more straightforward and can be revised enough to pass during brushup.

Am shocked that someone found M&B harder than the others - I may have to go thru it again.

[no sponsor]

Of all the subjects in the course (Module 1 at Bristol), Instruments was tricky, and I think this is due to distance learning: looking at a page and trying to figure out forces and turning movements is tricky. Nav was tough, but more so in the brushup and exam.

Found Met easy, especially after the Oxford CD, and Ken at Bristol. Clearly, many others didn't, since most I know who did the exams in June failed. But then I also heard that the paper compared to others was more difficult.

IFR/VFR are a complete joke - I think I took 8 mins and 4 mins to complete the exams. Human Performance can be revised the night before.

Mass and balance can be straight-forward. In the June exam, half the questions came from a JAA specimen paper available from the CAA.

Flight planning turned out to be quite a pleasant exam too. Finished with enough time to do a re-check of my answers. Had time to re-check Gen Nav too, and I'm sure those last 10 mins got me through the exam, since I re-did a few tricky questions, and felt much more confident with my answers, i.e. my answers actually matched those available, as opposed to guesses. Still 80% is good enough for me.

Now on module 2 with Bristol - somehow is seems a little easier with those 8 passes already in the bag. PoF looks the most tricky at the moment - constant reference to Kermode's book to help me through. I'm taking it easy though: 1 frame a week should see me nicely onto the Oct course.

[Echo T]

I think my hardest would be Instruments, AGK and Met! just trying to understand it is complicated enough for me! but i'm going through the feedback inside out and trying to grasp the concept of it.

Has anyone taken Instruments, AGK and MET in this weeks exams how was it and what were they focusing on and asking?

well good luck guys and girls!

E.T

[silverknapper]

Can really only re iterate whats been said above. Personally found Met and Performance the hardest. Mass and Balance and the comms were the easiest.

SK

[cyclic_fondler]

I'm looking to do my exams in Sept and it seems to me that there is so much "padding" in some of the subjects.

In the exams, do you get tested on the things that you really do need to know or are you tested to find out if you know the whole subject?

But I guess when I do my brush-up course, I'll get steered in the right direction of what I need to concentrate on!

[pipergirl]

I might sound a bit mad, but I really enjoyed the brush up course in BRS and found the whole exam thing quite exciting...:eek:

I think i may have slipped up on instruments and Met as I felt i could have put a bit more work them, but hey, tis no biggie...

Nav-fav subject...found exam v straight forward, loads of whizz wheel stuff on the exam, wud be very disappointed not to pass..

Mass and Balance twas grand, but it's easy to be complacent about it and neglect to study for it. I know people who haven't taken it seriously and fluffed it.

Comms - what a waste of £110 for two exams....the CAA should be ashamed of themselves

HP+L - hope I didn't fluff this one up... :}

Flight Planning(....lobster?? in a light curry sauce...) gave it a good bash, just hope those f@#king graphs haven't let me down...

anyway...best of luck to all those who gave 'em a go
:ok:

[Mobieus1]

Finding enought time to ram it all in is my biggest problem :(

But if it must be a subject it has to be air law, loads of facts and legislation to take in.

[ClintonBaptiste]

Which is the hardest?

For me it's Instruments. I've now passed 13 out of 14 and I'm on my final attempt. On a scale of 1 to 10 it's bicycle clip time!!

I'm not being pessimistic, but what exactly would happen if I failed? I know I have to retake all 14, but do you have to sign up for another ATPL course?

The most annoying thing is, I've passed most of the 14 1st time and I got a 74% - 1 silly mistake.

PRINCIPLES OF FLIGHT - Boring, but do it before Performance as it helps you understand what's going on.

METEOROLOGY - The problem with MET is that there is so much they can ask you. Had about 12 pages of diagrams, METAR's etc. in the exam. However you should know MET inside out as it one of only a few ATPL subjects you'll actually use!

INSTRUMENTS - ??????

HPL - This is one of the easier subjects, a lot of general knowledge and basic biology.

GNAV - Really enjoyed this, as it is something that doesn't have to be learnt parrot fashion. Mind you, we had a great teacher.

IFR COMMS + VFR COMMS - I wish I could buy the rights to these exams. A real money maker for the CAA. £55 for half an hour for these exams, if you take that long you should be taken outside and shot! ALL feedback and basic knowledge.

AIR LAW - God - This is dull! The London Feedback seemed to cover almost every question here.

OPS - Supposedly another money maker, but admittedly I found it a lot harder than I expected. Loads of Q's on Oxygen and Un/Pressurized a/c.

AGK - It all depends on your strength's and weaknesses. I'm terrible at electrics and powerplant, but the majority of Q's are supposed to be on Systems.

RNAV - Another dull one I'm afraid - Remember the frequencies / Emission codes and GPS. We had good feedback on this.

PERFORMANCE - As I said before POF really helps you out with this. When I started this subject, I hadn't a clue what sort of Q's we'd get - but again there is a lot of good feedback out there.

MASS AND BALANCE - Maths and good use of the CAP. There are even definitions of BEM and DOM given to you.

FLIGHT PLANNING - Know your Jeppeson and the CAP inside out. Really enjoyable subject, just a shame about the bloody long exam.

At the end of the day, it all depends on what subjects interest you already as to what you will find the hardest. All I can say is Good Luck. Just try not to get 74%, I think I'd rather fail with a pitiful mark than just be so near, yet so far!!

[timzsta]

tiram what is it about magnetic compasses you are having problems with? Send me a IM, and I will try and help.

[critical winge]

A quick poll if possible please. What 2 subjects on the UK ATPL Ground Studies do you think are the hardest? Thanks in advance.

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

mmm.......VFR and IFR communications ;).

I found Law hard going, simply because it was so dry.

[Send Clowns]

Not seen recent statistics, but nationwide it used to be that PofF had the lowest pass rate, Gen Nav second. Personally I would say Law, but I hate learning of dry facts without any logic or coherence.

[3legs]

For Me it was Gen Nav, failed it four times causing me to go around again:{ Since Passed it in May!!:D After Gen Nav its a close call between Instruments and Met!!

All the Best

3Legs:ok:

[hooters]

For me Instruments was my down fall.
Failed it 4 times and like 3legs I'm in go around mode.
What hurts is that I already had 13 passes under my belt.:(

[3legs]

Hooters,

I too know what its like to feel the pain of the kick after getting 13 and then failing....Going around!

Worse still I was about to start my IR training!

How far have you got now? I think i'm turning base to final now! got 10 passed and 4 left to do next month :confused:

Good luck with your Exams.....

3Legs:ok:

[hooters]

3legs,

I'm on the upwind leg turning crosswind. Getting ready for 7/8 exams in November.
Instruments being one of them.....:)

Was getting ready to go to the USA to do my ME/CPL and part of the IR...JAA style when that A4 fell through the door.

Wish you a smooth landing with the remaining 4 and Good Luck next month.

[EGAC_Ramper]

Well only sat 7 so far at Oxford and most certainly have to say MET is a tough one,well at least for me and Gen Nav is going down the same lines !!:rolleyes:


Regards

[helicopter-redeye]

Gotta be Gen Nav. All of the other subjects you can brief on and get a good feel of the QB. But GN is too easy to produce another 50 questions on or switch the order of the answers round.

h-r:)

[south coast]

i passed them all about 4 years ago, but i hated mass & balance.

i just did not like the calculations and therefore did not spend much time on it, and you know what happens then, you fail it and have to spend even more time on it!

mass & balance....what a horrible subject!

[parris60]

For me it was MET and POF. I liked both subjects (kind off!!), but found them really hard to pass. It was a great feeling when the results came through and I had got them, still cant belive it!! :ok:

[finals24]

Definitely Gen Nav. The only one with serious time pressure.

[Kazakhstan]

Hi,

For me the I though Met would be hard but I used the PGT feedback questions and found Met to be easier.

Gen Nav, Flight Planning and Law which I have filed twice, 72 & 74%.

Anyone have any tips for the above.

Thanks

[pipergirl]

looking back at it(and this is such a nice place to be:)...
i think the trickiest subjects are Met and Air Law
I had to re-sit instruments twice, but that was more down to poor preparation and complacency on my part than anything.
i don't think that it is a difficult subject-I got 73% in my first two sittings!!:O twasn't nice...

i think the other subjects have a rhyme and reason to them. There is logic behind gen nav, mass and balance, flight planning etc...but i found with met and air law, there was masses and masses of information to trawl through and a lot of it esp. in air law was contradictory to what we were being taught in ops procedures...i have to be honest and say that after doing these two subjects, i am not really any the wiser for it because of the volume of information and bascially that it was a huge pain in the tits to get through.

[The96er]

For me, the hardest subjects to prepare for were Op's and Law, simply because there seemed to be a 1001 seperate facts to learn/memorise. However, those subjects that involved the use of numbers i.e M+B, GNAV and Flight Planning, I found very easy, which I fail to understand as to why people seem scared of these subjects, especially GNAV. One thing I noticed whilst doing the groundschool / studying was that people just gave up on GNAV and decided that it was too difficult without actually sitting down and attempting the feedback. There really is'nt much to it beyond memorising a few formula and getting to grips with the wizz-wheel. Practice, practice and practice as they say.

The96er

[YYZ]

I thought Perf & PoF were tough, however I did pass them both first time (75% only), and I did fail others, down to going too fast and not fully understanding the basics first, once I did that it all came togeather, Thankfully!

[short final 28]

Hey All,

Im in the middle of my study at the moment and i have to say i find PoF and instrument the hardest. Met can also be difficult but it is just a matter of getting the head down and studying!!

Gud Luck:O

[Jinkster]

Performance for me!


But dont forget if you havent sat any yet....goes for comms aswell they maybe easy but with fewer questions on the paper you cant afford to get many wrong so dont think comms is easy - do some study for it or you will fail!!!!! :ok:

[piper pervert]

Hi folks,
Sorry for taking this thread slightly sideways,but does anybody have any clue as to what percentage of people pass their atpls first time? I had to re-take 4 but lots of people i speak to got them all straight away.Are they telling porkies or am i just thick?

cheers
pp

[Martin1234]

PP, have a look at;
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/UK%20JAR-FCL%20ATPL(A).pdf

I agree with Jinkster, I got 83% on IFR which means that I could just afford to have one more question wrong.

I found M&B and GNAV relatively easy while I fear meteorology and POF which are still to come. I guess that it is related to my lack of interest in physics.

[CarbHeatIn]

Although only a small part of one subject, my nemesis was Electrics. Ended up getting 70 first time in AGK because the CAA decided to throw in 3 times the usual number of Electrics questions.

Also, I must admit that despite passing subjects such as Radio Nav, Instruments and Met first time, this was primarily because I managed to remember the feedback and not because of some inherent understanding of the material. I think the current exam process is flawed.

[carbheatout]

You would say that you Phantom! You failed it!! you should spend less time down Belushi's with Adrian.... The process is beautiful. Play the game my friend....

Hey, will you need me for Flight Planning this week - i scored a cool 96% in that one - don't ask me how!!

[CarbHeatIn]

you still didn't manage any 100s you feedback phantom!

[carbheatout]

Stop perving on here and get back to revising for your resits!

[CarbHeatIn]

not a bad suggestion, these flight Planning graphs are wrecking my head! any grinds available? Listening to your scanner in the garden?

[jemax]

Current stats say Gen Nav and Met are hardest, Performance has it moments, but as I'm Heli I didn't have to take it:D

Law just dull

[3legs]

Hooters, you have a PM! :ok:

[G-ANDY]

Still on Module 1 at BGS so haven't had the "pleasure" of law yet. Right now instuments is giving me some grief - it's hard to work everything out in my mind when the only aircraft I get to look in is an old PA28 without any computers.

Met is quite interesting (apart from Climatology) because it's all around you. Is it raining today? Yes, why? Because a polar front depression has crept down (usually pushed up North due to the ITCZ in summer) and I'm sitting under a warm sector :(

Anyone attending the BGS brush-up course for Module 1 on 22Aug then exams at Silsoe 5,6,7,8 Sep?

G-ANDY

[Kazakhstan]

To CarbHeatIn and Out,

Cannot believe how one could fail AGK this was one of the easiest subjects. Also who finds performance hard!

Phantom how could you not get 100% in VFR comms honestly!!!!

I think the CAA should make these exams harder give us a real challenge!!!

I feels sorry that you feel the CAA cheated you out of your pass because there were too many Electrics Questions.

Maybe this will be a lesson to spend more time studying and LESS TIME ON FACE PARTY & RATE MY CAMEL TOE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AHMC]

Hello,

Is it possible to do the ATPL theory examinations first, before embarking on any of the practical training?

I think this is a sensible option so that the practical phase can flow without too much interruption, I have the funds available to do all the training and i am thinking of the following schedule:

1) Complete ATPL theory exams
2) USA -> JAA PPL/Night/IMC & hour build & ppl exams
3) UK -> JAA CPL/IR / ME / MCC

A further question would be is there a time limit between passing the exams and completing the practical training - so in other words becoming the holder of a fATPL?

I really want to get my plan right before i begin my training :)

Any help/suggestions would be most appreciated.

Many Thanks.

[bfato]

Nice idea but you need a PPL before you can do the ATPL exams.

[FlyingForFun]

A further question would be is there a time limit between passing the exams and completing the practical training - so in other words becoming the holder of a fATPL?In addition to holding a PPL before starting the ATPL theory (and remember the PPL has its own theory exams), you must get your CPL and your IR within 36 months of completing the ATPL theory.

Once you have acquired your CPL and IR, you must ensure that your IR does not lapse by more than 7 years, otherwise the theory exams expire and you will not be able to upgrade your frozen ATPL to a full ATPL without re-sitting them.

FFF
---------------

[Blinkz]

Simply, no. If you are doing your training modular then you need to have a ICAO PPL before you start the ATPL exams. The only way you can do the exams first is if you go integrated (and still some schools don't do all the exams first).

There is a time limit to the exams as well. You have 36 months from passing your exams to gaining your IR. After that you have to resit all your exams.

[Keygrip]

Note that the answers given so far probably refer to the UK CAA, other member states of JAA may suggest differently - but then again, is this strictly true?

Do you HAVE to have a PPL before being allowed to sit the ATPL exams on a modular course. (References?).

I know many, if not all of, the groundschools say that you must have a PPL as their pre-entry requirements - but I bet if you turned up with £1700 (or whatever it costs this year), they would let you join - especially distance learning.

As Blinkz said, you can certainly do the theory first on an integrated course - so sign up with Oxford then, after passing the exams, cancel the course?

Note that if you do manage to do the theory first you will be exempt from taking the PPL papers later - you would just need the Radio telephony practical test if going for a UK issued licence.

Only other change I would suggest is to do the ME course whilst hour building "stateside".

Actually, from looking at your list - I would have done PPL, 40 hours hour build in USA, Multi Engine rating in USA, 20 hours hour build in UK, Multi Engine Instrument rating, finish with multi engine CPL. Assuming first time passes in everything and in minimum hours, you would be just 18 hours short of applying for modular CPL.

All finished within 6 months of starting the flying - so 12 months from starting full time ground school - and the cheapest modular way.

[DB6]

If you haven't done so already get the class 1 medical out of the way. There is no point in doing anything if you can't pass that.

[AHMC]

DB6 -> Pleased to report that i received Class 1 Medical Certificate in the post on Friday - so that's the first step, of many, accomplished.:)

It seems generally that i should really do the JAA PPL first before embarking on the ATPL ground exams, for the reason of ensuring that the validity of the ATPL Examinations is not thrown in to question at a later stage even though Keygrip & Blinkz raised a very interesting point regarding the integrated method.

From what i can gather though, and please correct me if i am wrong, the distance learning portion of the ATPL must be done in a certain way. For instance at Bristol there are two exam periods. I consider myself to have a high aptitude for learning and have been revising the ATPL subjects for some time so would i be able to take the exams sooner - say within 2 months of starting the distance learning?

The ATPL theoretical phase seems to be the longest phase in the training and with my pre-course revision i was hoping that i could reduce the total time needed for the ATPL Exams. Just a thought - maybe i am being a bit too optimistic.

Thank you all for your advice - it really is a great comfort to have such helpful people when some of the things in aviation seem so complex - so thank you all once again - it really means a lot.

[David_Lid Air]

2 months sounds a little too early, it is alot of information to remember..


Good luck with your training :ok:

[Alex Whittingham]

For clarity, you must have an ICAO PPL before you start your groundschool course. It is a JAA requirement. The CAA will definitely refuse your exam application and may insist that you start your studies again if you don't have a PPL.

[AHMC]

Alex, Thank you.

Are you with Bristol GS?

If so do you know if it is possible to do the exams within lets say 2 months of starting the distance learning? -> if i feel ready.

Obviously once i have a ICAO PPL.

[Dick Whittingham]

In fact,you might say Alex is Bristol Groundschool, but that would be unfair to the team. Alex has his hands full at this moment, so I'll give you a holding answer.

The JAA require a distance course to have a minimum number of hours spent in home study and in face-to-face classroom study. That is why we have the 2 week classroom periods for each half of the course

Based on your performance on the progress tests at home and at Cheddar we have to sign you off to the CAA as up to a reasonable standard

You could theoretically do the distance learning in two months, but it would be huge job. You can't avoid the classroom bit, and as we run the first half and second half brush-ups concurently you couldn't do both in one two week period. You could wait one month and do the next, however.

Exams are sheduled by the CAA at the begining of each month, so you go straight from the brush-up to the exams. I think trying to do all fourteen in one week would be a touch hard. Even half one month and the rest in the nexr month would be pretty tough.

So, in summary, you can't short cut the CAA trequirements, but you might be able to pack the whole lot in in a short time. More like four months than two.

I'll leave it to others who have done the course to tell you how hard it is,and how long ordinary mortals take

Leave it a few days then call Alex at Bristol for his advice

Dick W

[AHMC]

Dick,

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. Would i be able to purchase the course materials and begin working through those without proceeding to the exam phase at this stage?

I am thinking i could revise the materials further in my spare time whilst doing my PPL and then once i am in a position to officially submit myself for the examinations and step up the revision i could do this at an appropriate time - i.e once i hold an ICAO PPL.

Many thanks.
AHMC

[mcgoo]

yes that is how it works, i'm enrolled at bristol and you buy the course and then book the 2 week crammer course when you feel you are ready.

[AHMC]

Mcgoo,

Thank you for your reply.

How are you finding the theory?

I am hoping to buy the materials and prepare myself for an examination date approx 2-3 months after i obtain my PPL which will be in approx 1 months time.

Do you think this is realistic based your experience? and/or what would you suggest?

Many Thanks,
AHMC

[mcgoo]

i must admit i'm finding the theory a bit tough, i got my PPL in November in the US and bought the course in December although with christmas and new year i didn't really start until mid January, then rather foolishly i think i booked my 2 week revision course for April to set myself a target, i now realise this may be far too soon, the actual material isn't really that difficult it's just the sheer volume of it that you have to remember. Now i am studying very hard to get ready for exams, i have 4 progress tests left to do, then i will go through all the material again and work through the question bank.

[Sean H]

Ill have my JAA/CAA PPL soon...
Then my plan is to work for 2 years saving money until im 21,then do the ATPL exams,ME IR,MCC.
As im stuck for ££££'s, would it be wiser to do all flight training and atpl exams in florida etc??
Whats a ruff cost for gaining a FATPL???MODULAR route i mean cause id never be able to fund the oxford route etc.
What airlines in europe give free type ratings?
Thanks...:ok:

[JUST-local]

Whats the rush? there seems to be a big rush to complete the training (just a formality attitude!) in lots of these threads, I'm not talking about any threads in particlar just noticed lots of people who claim not to have done any flying yet talking about when and on what day they will pass the IR skill test and can I run before crawling etc. Why not relax and try to enjoy the experience we may learn something!

JUST-local

[mcgoo]

well the rush for me is that i am 31 and so have not got the luxury of taking my time and slowly progressing, through training, and also the amount of money that pilot training costs is another factor, while a lot of people on here harp on through rose tinted glasses about "follow your dreams", "being a pilot is my destiny" blah, blah, blah. While i agree with these sentiments and having suffered many setbacks and worked hard to get this far, the cold, hard facts are i want to finish training, gain employment (in any form of flying)and start getting a return on my investment as soon as possible!

[AHMC]

Hi Just-Local,

Thank you for your comments and valid points raised.

From my planning there appears to be many factors which influence the speed and completion of training. These can be such things as aptitude, financial resources, weather, family commitments and training organisation to name but a few.

For me personally - i have a high aptitude for learning and do not wish to be held back when i could be learning more theory or practical elements. For me financial resources are there but are limited, as i suspect with most student pilots, and the more time spent training means more cost to me ultimately down the line.

I agree with you that one should not, under any circumstances, rush through training and possibly miss vital knowledge/experience but i also think that one should not linger or dawdle as continuity of training helps to re-enforce critical information.

That's what my planning shows anyway. I am sure there will be modifications along the way.;)

For me - i know where i want to get to (Point B) and have planned accordingly from where i am now (Point A) but i am sure that with the best will in the world in between A & B will require various modifications and replannings along the way but eventually i will reach point B. With this in mind i personally wouldn't dream of attempting to put a date on completion of a specific point of training and i agree with you on this.

[JUST-local]

Yes I agree with most of your points, but you have to be realistic, you cannot microwave the training ! I'm 28 and am a fair way off being a commercial pilot by any strech, will achive it but don't have the day marked in the diary!

Best of luck with the training.

JUST-local

[AHMC]

From the sounds of it we are all quite similar in the sense that we are all seeing the cold, hard reality of training to be a commercial pilot.

I think we would all agree that two things are for sure, i we make them happen, though that make it all worth while:

1) Doing what we love everyday - flying & being challenged
2) Being paid for this and being rewarded for the hardwork we put in to get there.

It is a hard road but one which bears excellent fruits, both personally and professionally, at the end.

I think even though most of us have a dream and the reality is sometimes very cold and different we should never forget that dream as it will keep us going through the hard times.

[wbryce]

If doing modular training then I would highly recommend doing all elements that do not have a time restriction. Doing a section such as the ATPL theory before your hour building (which can take a fair few months - in my case, 12 months and still counting)...then its a waste of valuable time and may lead to undue pressure in order to complete the remaining parts.

If your on a badger arse budget like some of us then structuring your course in this way will benefit. If you have a wad of cash that will allow you to train full time modular then its a diffrent scenario.

How do you eat yours?

[mcgoo]

i'm not really sure where your coming from, CPL/IR training is broken up into different exams and licenses and ratings so i don't see how you can miss vital knowledge or experience because if you do you won't pass that particular part of the course, and the course has hour/time requirements anyway (45 hour PPL, 700 hours ATPL study etc), what is the point of slowing down your training and delaying getting to where you want to be?

[AHMC]

Hi Mcgoo,

Sorry - i think i was a little unclear there.

Just-Local had raised the valid point that many seem to want to rush through the training and i may have appeared to be one of those people. I was clarifying that based on my personal circumstances i was planning according to a comfortable pace for me. Others may complete the training quicker of slower - i suppose it all depends on their factors.

I was meaning that rather than learning the material just for the exam and then quickly finding the knowledge becoming sketchy i would rather pace myself so that i learned the material for the long term and had a solid and firm knowledge base for the future.

I agree with your question about slowing training down - I don't think it should be slowed down if a student, has a good knowledge base to pass the exams and maintain that knowledge base after the exams a done with and can do the practical work to the required standard etc

I don't know though i will soon embark on the long journey and will find out for myself very soon if my theory is on track. I am sure it will require modifications at some point though.;)

[paco]

I'm glad you clarified that AHMC - I don't like the developing trend of people trying to short cut the exams, especially by learning the answers to the questions (learning exam technique is acceptable, but not the answers!). I believe it is a CRM issue, and an indication that people have the wrong attitude before they even start in the job!

Our product is safe arrival, and we do not deliver that by taking short cuts.

Phil

[AHMC]

I agree with you paco - i also think that the correct attitude is crucial to being a good aviator.

Everytime i go to the flying school and see someone kicking up a fuss about the weather and asking why they can't fly over and over again, i can't help but shake my head.

Thats what i'm beginning to see anyway.

[paco]

I forgot to add that it's not worth skipping the exams - you will need the same knowledge for the interview and if you don't know it will be obvious! A lot of people criticise the US/Canadian academic standards, forgetting that the real exam is with the examiner!

Phil

[Leezyjet]

Does anyone have any hints/tips to help with the ATPL self study ?.

I've been out of the study game for around 12 years, and silly as it may sound, I've forgotten how to study !!. I'm currently doing Module one through Bristol Ground School.

I sit and read through the subjects, and then do the tests at the end, but find that I'm not remembering what I should be, and remembering what I don't really need to.

Whats the best way to ensure that I can remember what I need to ? Am I best writing my own notes as I go, or highlighting important bits in the books ? (I have been trying to keep my books as neat and tidy as poss by only making the odd few pencil marks in them).

I know not everyone learns in the same way, but any hints/tips/advice is appreciated so I can give it a try and find out what works for me.

:ok:

[paco]

Constant reviewing is the key - do a little bit, review it, and review it again at the end of the day.

Good luck

Phil

[bolty_1000]

I agree!
I have just completed all 14 and had been out of education for a while.
I planned my time carefully and did chunks at a time - say 1hr with a 10-15 mins off doing something completley different and then back to a different subject. I worked out a timetable and stuck to it.
Find what works for you and enjoy it!!!!
pm me if you need any more specific hints with the different subjects!!

[bfato]

Here's what worked for me:

Stage 1

Read through each frame and just try to understand everything.
Read through again, and try to memorise any facts or formulas. Making notes and drawing diagrams can help here.
Take the progress test, without referring to the notes, and have it marked.
Review the marked answers, including the questions you got right.
Move on to the next frame.

Stage 2

When all subjects finished (and you think you remember nothing of them) hit the online question bank.
Create a huge test of the questions on one subject and start plugging away, an hour at a time.
If a question comes up and you have to guess it or you get it wrong, write the question number down (creating a list in word like 123,124,126.. will help later).
If you get a second question wrong on any topic, re-read the notes on that topic before carrying on. Ask online about anything you can't understand.
When the test is finished (it may take several days), create a second test of all the questions you got wrong the previous time (you can cut and paste that word list from earlier). It's likely to be at least a third of the size of the first, so may take a couple of days to get through.
If a question comes up and you have to guess it or you get it wrong, write the question number down etc etc
Repeat the whole process, creating shorter and shorter tests, until you are getting few questions wrong.

Stage 3

Attend the brush up.
The tutors will go through the entire syallabus again and give you questions to do each evening. By now you will be familiar with the style of questions and the areas of interest to the examiner. You will feel confident.

Stage 4

Take and pass the exams.
Drink Beer.

[femaleWannabe]

Does anyone know of a groundschool which lets you stretch out sitting the ATPL exams (distance learning) as much as you like? Most of the ones I have looked at so far give you a set schedule and you have to complete the whole course within 12 months. My problem is that I only get 5 weeks holiday off work each year, so to do 3 phases with one week classroom and 1 week exams each time, equals 6 weeks leave required!! :uhoh:

[boogie-nicey]

wilco with the beer :) But just not whilst studying

[Captain2b]

Im also on the module 1 at Bristol groundschool, some days of reading seem to happen with dedication and motivation ,other days i seem 2 find im reading the words and nothing appears to be entering!!

Like with any study i think repetion is the key and only in 1 hour chunks, write and draw things that help you understand the content and makes it stick.... Very hard to knuckle down though, ive been told the above advice time and time again however it still seems so difficult 2 carry out...

How long have you had your books 4??

[Leezyjet]

Thanks for the tips so far...

How long have you had your books 4??

Got them just before Xmas, but didn't make a start until Jan.

some days of reading seem to happen with dedication and motivation ,other days i seem 2 find im reading the words and nothing appears to be entering!!


Yep - same problem I've got. Sometimes I'll be reading and I might as well be staring at a blank page !!.

I bought myself a white board yesterday so that I can write any important things I need to remember on it, so I can always see them.

:\

[AHMC]

femalewannabe,

I am doing my ATPL Theory - distance learning - with Bristol Ground School.

The course is split in to two blocks and require 2 x sessions of 2 weeks. In each session 1 week is cramming and the other week is exams.

The total required time for the crammer and exam sessions would therfore be 4 weeks - which should meet your limitations.

At least this was the case a few weeks ago when i last checked. Hope it helps.

[bfato]

Not quite, AHMC.

For each module, it's two weeks of cramming at Cheddar (including mock exams) plus a week of real exams at a CAA exam venue. A total of three weeks per module.

[AHMC]

My Apologies.

bfato is correct so this would mean you would bust through your 5 weeks leave.

It's a shame you can't revise for each subject and take them one by one like the PPL's.

Sorry, femalewannabe.

[mcgoo]

i'm not sure you can do the multi straight after ppl, on a lot of FTO websites the minimum requirements are 70 hours pic.

[Bramley]

For the OP - um, whilst it would be nice (but impossible) to get the ATPL exams out of the way first, wouldn't it be better to get the PPL first to make sure you actually *want* to go all the way to ATPL?
My 2p.

[planeshipcar]

In the JAA ATPL theory exams are we allowed to use caluculators. Also in Navigatin do we have to use a non-electronic nav computer or is an electronic allowed.

cheers,

planeshipcar

[bfato]

Electronic calculators are allowed, non-programmable and non-alphabetic.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_examination_briefing.pdf

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_directions_to_candidates.pdf

Unless your old school calculator was particularly fancy, it'll do fine. You only really need a minimum of sine, cosine, tangent and square root.

[planeshipcar]

Cheers dude, appreciate that, however I'm still unsure whether I can use my electronic nav computer

[scameron77]

Its essentially a programmable calculator so I suggest not, but in practice I've seen them in the exam room. Just depends how thorough the invigilator is really.

Also buy the Pooleys CRP-5, it seems to be the one the examiners used when devising the papers. However for some reason whatever you get will always be 3 degrees out, 4/6 knots over or under, etc. :sad:

[bfato]

Sorry mate, obviously I didn't RTFQ!

I've heard electronic nav computers are emphatically not allowed but I haven't seen anything written down. Bear in mind that whatever calculator you take in can be taken by the invigilator and replaced with a tuppeny-ha'peny effort that came out of a christmas cracker. There's no real alternative to getting back up to speed with the wind side of a whizz wheel...

[watty]

Can anybody recommend any online ATPL practice question banks?

Preferably free!

Cheers

[Flying is the Pitts]

Bristol Ground schools online question bank is well worth the £70. I know a few lads who have just used this to pass the dreaded ATPL's.

http://213.48.96.23/atponline/jalo/index.asp

The best of luck!

[jar-dk]

www.aerosolutions.be - they were spot on!!!! can really recommend them - they have bulletin board for all the questions - so people ask questions about them - remember dont just remember the answer is b , but why is it b!!!
best of luck on the mutiple choice fun......

[smith]

Electronic flight computers are definately NOT allowed, you must use the CRP-5 or equivalent. A caulculator with a DMS (degrees,minutes and seconds) button is a must.

You also need a protractor, compass and a jepp student manual.

[Superpilot]

I know this has been done before, but I'm struggling to understand why no certified current or ex ground instructors have ventured into this area. Given that most Distance Learning students are the full time working type you would think there is a good market for evening classes. I work in London and have far too many commitments to leave work. At present I'm studying about 1 hour during lunch and a couple in the evening. After speaking to a few people it appears I'm not the only one asking this question. Any thoughts? :confused:

[mr impact]

This sounds like a really good idea to me, I would sign up to a course like that.

[pugzi]

A group of Instructors tried to do exactly that, albiet mainly on weekends for the Dist. Learning student. Sadly, there was not enough people out there who either who wanted it, or were willing to risk a new school. Alas, it didn't last despite the best efforts of those who did give it a go. Pilot Ground Training (PGT) was the company, try a search on here for the name.
Nice idea, but the only people who could afford to satisfy that demand is an already existing school, and a reputable one at that.

[Superpilot]

Where were the weekend classes held?

I know about 3 others who would be willing to enroll if such classes were set up in/around the London area. Must be more on here? I could do weekends, evenings or even a couple of days during the week. I think you're right about only an existing school being able to satisfy this demand. London Met instructors, you there! ;)

[Steve Tindle]

Superpilot,
Pugzi is correct about PGT and we did give it a go but i guess our marketing was not on the boil at the time. I dont know of a provider who is offeriing evening and weekend tuition at the moment.
Anyway that said if ever you feel the need for private tuition Pm me as i am still in contact with all the guys who used to work for me at PGT.
Cheers Steve Tindle
ex director of PGT

[potkettleblack]

The simple answer is that there just isn't the number of people to support a night school nor for that matter another training organisation sadly.

A search of the CAA website will yield that during 2004-2005 (only data I could find) there were 963 CPL's issued. Lets assume that 90% of these did the full ATPL's and not the cut down CPL version. That leaves us with 867 people. Now lets take out all the people on integrated courses - say about 200 for arguments sake? Thats just a plain guess out of thin air. What about other people on fulltime modular with the likes of BCFT, Cabair (both schools), Oxford, Coventry. Shall we take off another 200 say? Then that leaves us with 467 people spread throughout the UK and presumably Europe or the rest of the world. The problems of targeting these 467 are:

- how many would actually want a night class? Many people are quite happy trundling along at their own pace.

- where do you locate it?Your in London but another poster who thought it a good idea was in Leeds. So you already are thinking that 1 location isn't going to suit everyone?

- what do you teach and in what order? Some will be with Bristol following their "frame" based approach, others with GTS, others with Cabair, some with London MET, Naples, Glasgow, Coventry.... Each school has their own running order for the subjects which hampers any logical order for running the night classes.

- and the crunch one of how much would people be willing to pay which has to be balanced against the instructors getting a buck out of it. Finding a cheap location in London for example would not be easy. Most instructors tend to be outside of London in anycase and live close to places like BOH, Oxford etc so they would have to commute and make it worth their while at the same time.

I agree with your sentiments and at times I have often thought how great it would be to go get some structured lessons but as stated above it just isn't economically feasible. At the end of the day though your school is only a phone call/email away. Many have forums where you can post queries. Then there are the online databases with the ACTUAL JAA questions to help you out and get you over the finishing line. Good luck and keep at it.

[paco]

Actually, there is a helicopter distance learning school about to start - and evening/weekend classes are on the list - it won't be too much trouble to include fixed wing guys on the common subjects, maybe even extend them.

We will be doing other courses (CRM etc) anyway so it won't be too much of a problem if there's a bit of a market. At Booker, or possibly Kemble, maybe both! Redhill is a possibility too, if I can get classrooms

Will be at the aero expo in June for enquiries

Phil

[Grass strip basher]

If you did it in central London I would be keen... but getting to booker or Redhill etc after work is a bit of a nightmare!

Other than that I think it is a top idea... oh and I can recommend Mr Tindle's private tuition.

[LH2]

Hi there

I apologise as I'm sure this must have been asked before, but a search didn't turn up any results.

My question is, I've just finished my PPL, with all of almost 46 hours TT. Would I be able to start my ATPL theory studies (with one of the distance schools) at this time, or do I need a certain number of hours, or any other requisites before I can tackle that?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

[mcgoo]

you only need an ICAO PPL, i started with BGS with a 45 hour PPL.

[LH2]

Wow, that was a quick reply sir :) Thanks.

[mcgoo]

no problem, good luck! :ok:

[sicky]

Is it the IR where you need a certain number of hours?

[mpcosta]

Is it the IR where you need a certain number of hours?
From JAR-FCL 1.190 :

An applicant for an IR(A) shall hold a PPL(A) including a night qualification or CPL(A) and shall have completed at least 50 hours cross-country flight time as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which at least 10 hours shall be in aeroplanes.

Cya, MC

[scottiedogg]

i was recommended to do the hour building (100hrs P1, 150 total) first before the atpl ground school after i had done my ppl. As then as soon as youve finished the atpl exams your into CPL and IR and no worries about the exams validity running out.

Ive done it that way around and seems to be working well, about to start the atpl exams next month.

Scottie.

[mcgoo]

i did it the other way, ppl straight into atpl groundschool then hour building practising then straight into cpl/ir, better for me as then i knew i could pass the exams before wasting money on hourbuilding and also having done the exams i could just concemtrate on the fun part and had better continuity from hour building to cpl/ir

[scottiedogg]

fair point, depends entirely which way round you look at everything in the long run, either way it all gets done! :)

i did the hour building first to make the most of the weather to go into the groundschoolover the autumn and into the winter, seemed the best way to work round, especially doing the hour building over here in the UK

Scottie

[mcgoo]

absolutely, everybody keeps looking for a right or a wrong way instead of a way that suits them, all down to personal circumstances really.

[Capt. Crocodile]

Hi everyone, I have a frozen ATPL in Oz and also want to get a CPL in Europe/UK. Does anyone know of anyone running shorter ATPL courses for people who already have some theory background. Maybe even correspondence courses.
Thanks! :)

[potkettleblack]

As far as I know there aren't any short cuts for people in your position. Pilots converting who have 1000's of hours in multi crew aircraft may find that they are exempt of the classroom element of the ATPL groundschool but that probably wouldn't apply in your case. Instead you are left with 2 options. First one is a residential course which will take you about 6 months of being at school 5 days a week sitting the 14 exams over anything from 2, 3 or 4 sittings depending on the school. Second option is to do it distance learning or correspondence as you refer to in your post. I would say the majority of us do it distance learning. Generally speaking you work at your own pace and then when you feel ready book yourself into a brush up course a few weeks prior to the exams. All 14 of the exams run every month so again it is down to personal choice as to when you do them. You get 6 sittings in total, 3 attempts at each one and 18 months to pass all 14 from the date of the first attempt at the exams.

Below is a link to LASORS which is a hefty UK CAA publication. Section J has information on the ATPL exams. In the other sections you will find the requirements for converting your ICAO CPL and IR to JAA as well.

The CAA website has a list of the approved ground school providers. A search here on pprune will give you weeks of reading as this topic is generally debated on an almost daily basis. Bristol tends to get most peoples votes and they have an online database that you can access for a fee that has questions that are remarkably like those found in the actual exams. No wonder then why they get so many punters through the door.:)

LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=detail&id=1591)

[Capt. Crocodile]

Thanks for your advice potkettleblack. Looks like correspondence is the way to go for me. :)

[mbd]

I intend to self-study and take the 14 ATPL(A) written examinations. :ugh:

Any recommendations on which books/notes are best for the self-study route?

Any feedback on the Atlantic Flight Training books (a.k.a. Jeppesen JAA ATPL training books)?

Cheers.

[potkettleblack]

Its not clear from your post if you are exempt from attending an approved course or not? If not you need to enrol with the likes of Bristol, Cabair, Oxford et al and they will provide you with a full set of notes. Then when it comes time to sitting the exams you attend a 2 week brush up course to prepare you and then you sit them at one of the CAA examination centres.

I would recommend Bristol whether you are exempt or not and when you are ready sign up to the Bristol database (50 quid for 3 months access) which you will give access to a question bank that looks remarkably similar to the real questions you will come across:)

Do a search on the above and read the sticky at the top of this forum to find out all you need to know.

[smith]

Yes you cannot "self study" and sit the exams, you must sign up with an approved provider and complete the course work required. There are approved JAA providers in both Orlando and Naples FL.

[mbd]

I think I qualify for self-study using "LASORS G1.5 Note 1". :ugh:

I understand this exemption will allow me to sit all 14 ATPL(A) exams without attending a formal course and take a type rating skills test on the aircraft I’m currently flying.

Being a typical pilot I am just looking for the least expensive way to study for these exams.:)

[potkettleblack]

PS: There is an examination centre in Florida that Naples and the other US approved schools use although I understand there is an agreement with the CAA that it is for their students sole use. You might be able to sit your exams there although no doubt they will want some cash off you and save some cash on flights back to the UK. Also the exam centre will only be running when their students are due to sit their exams so it might not suit you very well.

[Callsign Kilo]

My ATPL course uses Atlantic ATPL notes in some subjects, they seem ok but are not the best notes that I have ever used!

[BlueRobin]

Yes some of the AFT Jepp still needs revision, not sure about Bristol comparitively but I bet they aren't perfect!

Drop the Personnel Licencing people at Gatwick a line about your exemption to double-check.

Just to quote the relevant sources

LASORS

ATPL(A) holders who have a minimum of 1500 hours
flying experience as PIC or Co-pilot on multi-pilot
aeroplanes (or single-pilot aeroplanes operated by
2-pilots according to operational requirements) and
hold a valid multi-pilot type rating for the aeroplane to
be used for the ATPL(A) skill test and have at least 500
hours experience as pilot on that type, will be exempted
from the requirements to complete an approved TRTO
course or undergo approved training prior to
undertaking the theoretical knowledge examinations
and the skill test. Pilots with less than 500 hours
experience as pilot on the type to be used for the
ATPL(A) skill test will be exempted from the
requirements to undergo approved training prior to
undertaking the theoretical knowledge examinations
but will still be required to complete an approved type
rating course. However, the course may be reduced to
take account of previous experience on the same type
upon recommendation by the TRTO to PLD.

On the CAA theory exam application form, in lieu of no FTO, you have to sign off you are exempt under JAR 1.016(b) hence


JAR–FCL 1.016 Credit given to a holder of a licence issued by a non-JAA State

(b) The holder of an ATPL(A) issued in
accordance with ICAO Annex 1 who meets the
1 500 hours flying experience requirements on
multi-pilot aeroplanes as PIC or co-pilot of
Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.015 may be exempted
from the requirements to undergo approved
training prior to undertaking the theoretical
knowledge examinations and the skill test, if that
licence contains a valid multi-pilot type rating for
the aeroplane to be used for the ATPL(A) skill
test.

http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/licensing.html

[UKflyer]

I'm probably going to go with Bristol for the ATPL distance learning. They have a very good package of traditional manuals, online question bank and computer software with animations etc which should help more with those more technical subjects.

[Googlewac]

Hi All
Just wondering if the content of the ATPLs' stays fairly constant i.e if I start studying now would the study be out dated (or partially outdated) if I sit the exams in 18months to 2 years time?

The question being, does the CAA change the content of the exams on a regular basis or does anyone know if there an intention to do so?

Cheers

[Mercenary Pilot]

It would be partially outdated. Regulations change as do the questions, however some things remain the same...

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/lift/eq01.gif

:8 :ok:

[Bilbob]

Hi, I hope to start My ATPL Studies with BGS.

though work 9 - 5 in London. very busy.

To those who have faced and conquered the same challenges or in the same boat

How did you do it plan on doing , How many hrs a week did you put in how long did it take to pass the 1st Mod. Is it overambitious to to aim to complete both mods in a year.. Im just trying to get a feel for the realities of what im about to embark on..

cheers

Bilbob ....

[pilot-320]

BILLbob HELLO!!!

Nothing is overambitious when you have the passion,motivation and courage to sit down and study!! The good thing about the ATPL is their variety and of course the content!! Everyday u elarn something new about the nature procedures and aircraft systems!! I f u really like or even better love these things you will not face any problem!!

Good time organization and following yourown schedule will give a first time good time pass!! Its not the eaiest thing but on the other hand is not rocket science too!!

EXAMPLE: im doing my ATPL GROUND in-house and i need roughly 2 hours a day self-study. if u can find 4 or better 4 1/2 you will be fine !! And make sure u make the most of your weekends!!

any questions?

have a nice start my friend!!!!!:D

[Bandit650]

Having made good progress so far through the groundschool frames...am wandering if any subjects stand out as being especially difficult? I've heard Met and Performance (haven't got to them yet)...would appreciate other views...
Cheers.

[littco]

Gen nav and Met are definately the harder ones..

[catherine]

Agreed - Gen Nav & met. Really struggled with time on the Gen Nav exam, you have to work pretty quickly to get everything finished within the time allowed so keep an eye on the clock. Met I also really struggled with, found the subject interesting and thought I understood everything but the questions they ask you in the exam are a nightmare! Thought I was good at decoding TAFs etc but they are phrased in such a way they are difficult to decide which answer to go for, as someone told me - go for the least wrong answer.
As you have probably heard a zillion times before - use the briston question bank, also the oxford met CD I found really useful.
Good luck!

[neilia]

Definitely Met, it's such a huge and involved subject you really do need to have a pretty good understanding of what's going on and how it all fits together. I was lucky to have a legendary instructor for groundschool brushups. Gen Nav I don't find especially difficult, but everything's very time-consuming and I get the impression this is what gives trouble in the exam.
Anyway, we shall find out next week...

[expedite08]

Im having problems with all the calculations and graphs involved in flight planning. Performance graphs are also messing me up. It seems to be common consensus that Gen Nav and Met are the bad boys. At the moment I would rather take Gen Nav or met again than flight planning!!

[JUST-local]

I found most of the ATPL’s (except Comms) challenging in different ways.
I have listed them in order of how challenged I felt in preparing for each exam.
Flight Planning
G. Nav
Met
Performance
Principles Of Fright
Air Law (How Interesting!)
Instruments
R. Nav.
Operational procedures
Human Perf.
Aircraft Gen.
Mass & Balance
Comms
I and many of my fellow class mates found flight planning tough, you can pass as most of us did with almost full marks but you really must ensure there are no questions types you are not familiar with and do all the feedback you can get hold of. Failing that work through all, yes all of the Bristol online questions in order and ensure you can do 60 flight planning questions in less than two hours! You get three hours in the real exam but I found it was the quickest three hours in my life, seemed like 40 mins at the time - who said time flys when you are having fun!
General Nav - I had been warned about this subject before I ever picked the book up so was worried about it from the start, again time goes quickly but I found it OK with most of the syllabus covered but questions mainly more straight forward than I had prepared for.
Met - I was disappointed with the exam as the questions were mainly global climatology based with only one or two on icing, thunderstorms etc. Massive subject which you could spend years looking at on its own.
I found the graphs in Plight Planning & Performance hard work especially under pressure, again do as many As you can get hold of.
You can know the subject inside out but you really need lots of practice in how questions are asked and are quick in your decision on how to tackle the question and stick with your first answer.
I found studying until I lost them will to live did the trick! Study technique is key to these exams.
Good luck to all of you.
Cheers………

[Blinkz]

Met and Gen Nav? are you guys mad!! lol. They are actually interesting and thats half the battle won!! Airlaw is the worst! It is just so mind blowingly boring that its just impossible to revise!

Thank god that the ATPL exams are just a distant memory lol. Starting MCC on thursday, can't wait :ok:

[Lightning_Boy]

MET!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AARRRGGGGHHHHH.

Failed Met first time around. I quite enjoyed it as well but failed by 2%, on the other hand I found G-NAV the most difficult and passed with 92% (which I thought I'd failed) :ugh:

Oh well, thank god its got nothing do to with the real world. :ok:

[BlueRobin]

Some of your first-studied subjects are the hardest regardless of what they are. This is because you have to develop your brain into study-mode. I sweated over Ops and Instruments because of this, but looking back I reckon I would get better marks now.

I would say Air Law without the Question Bank would be nigh-on impossible. Jolly decent that the questions are therefore in the public domain :) :)

Met is one subject where you have to be able to recreate the picture in order to visualise then answer the question. Using Bristol's Question Bank will soon have you spotting commonly-asked subject areas. Crack these and you should get a pass.

Gen Nav is very mathsy. You need a good teacher also to show you the different chart projections, go through convergency and crack stereographs. After that the other elements are relatively easier. Work at it and the penny will eventually drop.

Perf/PoF are also concept based and it is one of those subjects where the UK exam setters seem to be, comparitively-speaking, actively introducing new questions. Two tough little nuts to crack.

Having said that Mass and Balance only has a few concepts to grasp and is nto that hard to pick up. However the total makrs on the paper donlt add up to much so you have a slim amount of questions to get wrong. On this account, I guess you could say M&B is a tough one. My lowest score so far (83%).

Flight Planning? Some M&B fuel/loading guff, PET/PSR formulae and chart techniquefrom Gen Nav, thereof you have most of the answers in the Jeppy manual :p

[Bandit650]

Well, I was beginning to feel confident there for a second until I read the posts! I am generally reading the notes, making notes, doint a set of Qs and hitting over 80%...but I've only done half of Insts, all of Hydraulics, and half of DC Elec...sounds like they're just the appertisers...
okay now I'm worried!!:uhoh: :uhoh:

Thanks anyway for the informative replies so far!!:ok:

[neilia]

When you've finished the material, get busy with Bristol - if you can do everything in there, you'll pass. Do it over and over and over again. Then do it a couple more times. Then do the questions you weren't sure about again. And again. You get the idea...

[bas1234]

Is it an advantage if you have a diplome for physics? Or is it possible to pass the subjects with less knowledge of physics?

[Adj]

Hi
i only had GCSE grade C in Physics....i managed to pass all 14 exams first time with my lowest mark 86% i think off the top of my head....so in answer to your question...YES! its possible
however obv a more complex understanding of the subject WILL make it so much easier and simpler to comprehend. I found myself having to spend many extra hours compared to others to get my level of knowledge upto scratch! :8

As regards difficult subject...it depends how you approach them - if you are simply doing it from the books then for me Air Law is so boring i find it impossible to read and take in! haha

If however your doing a lot of feedback - ie Bristol or other means. I would have to agree that Gen nav and Met are very challenging.
(airlaw is much easier doing quesitons!!!)

adam

[Bandit650]

Question for anyone who has done ATPL theory whilst in full-time employment...how many hours study per weekday did you average?

Just looking for a frame of reference with which to guage my own progress.

Cheers.

[captain_rossco]

A buddy of mine was working 8-4 and revising 6-12midnight. Said it was the most stressful 10 months of his life, proud to have got through it, but wouldn't again.
I suppose its down to natural absorbtion levels and time available. People have juggled work/family/atpls many times before, I feel that this is out of absolute necessity though.

Rossco

[Jimmy Macintosh]

I had always planned for 3 hours a night, but that just became impossible. I did manage between 1.5 to 3 hours a night more commonly 2. I was also working about 50 hour weeks at the office. Unfortunately it meant that I spent a good 6 hours on Saturday catching up. Hope that helps.

[degothia]

As Rosco said, you do it out of necessity. If you have a choise dont work full time and study, unless you know that you have SUPER DICIPLINE and a very understanding wife. I dont have the dicipline to sitt and study after a long day of work (but I do have the best womman in the world) so now I have to take a bite of the soure apple (swedish saying).
At the moment im working part-time to be able to finnish my exams in time and since part-time= half pay the next month wont be that much fun...
If you decide to work full time and do the ATPL I would recomend at least three hours a day and the whole weekend. Get a question bank from the start, it helps a lot.
Well, enough time spent on internet, back to Air Law...
D.

[chrisbl]

It is not the amount of time that is important but the quality of time.

When I started I thought three hours a night was fine. I soon found out that after a couple of hours the third hour was a waste of time because I was tired.

Try it out for yourself. Dont be too worried about counting the hours. If you worried about the Distance learning timesheet you need to complete then put any thing on it.
The aim is to learn and the time that takes varies with everyone.

[Cloud 99]

Yes, pretty much the same as everyone else....aimed for around 3 hours, very rarely managed it. Generally done about 2hrs-completed in 15months.
that was working 6 days and hours building in the rest.

As others have already said, work to your own schedule and remember to take as much time off/away as you need...there's no point in having no quality of life you'll just begin to hate it and not do nearly as well.

Best of luck

c99

[pipergirl]

I worked full time and studied for the exams and I have to say it was very very tough. I basically had to knuckle down and do what I had to do really!
I didn't give myself a set amount of hours per day, but what I did was (and I found this worked a treat for me) I set out how many chapters I wanted to get through.
Like let's say each frame had 3 subjects with 2-3 chapters per subject-I would aim to get one of the subjects done and that worked well for me tbh.
You have to get a very good balance when studying and working fulltime. You have to get the head down and go for it, but at the same time, you need a few hours to chill out and just give the brain a break!
I literally didn't socialise for the time that I did the exams except for the odd time, but this was just one of the sacrifices I had to make..
Just can't wait for all the training to be complete..at least I will be able to start buying clothes again(that's my ongoing sacrifice!)!..i hope!haha
Whatever you do I hope it all works out for you..best of luck:)

[Hufty]

I managed about two hours a night but it wasn't always quality work. I did feel quite tired while I was doing it but luckily I had the weekends too so actually went back into the office for most of the day Saturday and Sunday where it was nice and quiet! I used my holidays to attend the "brush up" courses and do the exams and it took me about 15 months to do the lot, although I didn't push it and sat the exams over (I think) 3 sittings to make life easier.

I remember thinking that if I was doing them full time it would have been so much easier - I covered so much in my two weeks "brush up" and got so much out of discussions with the other guys on the course.

Do them full time if you can, but provided you keep focused part time is fine provided you dump as much other stuff out of your life as you can while you're studying!

Good luck!

[G SXTY]

I left home at 7am to go to work, back from work at 7pm, aimed to study 2-3 hours per night. Gave myself Friday night and Saturday off for good behaviour, then studied all day Sunday.

From start to finish took around 13 months, but it was tough going - a great test of your motivational skills. :ok:

[RoosterBooster]

Hi Guys/Gals,

What did you find was the best study method that worked for you, i.e. note taking etc. I tend to go toooooo far into the subject which tends to slooooooow me down.

Cheers.

RB

[degothia]

After reading the subject once I printed out questions from a question bank and for each qestion I looked in the book to find out more about why the answer is the right one. It works realy well for me, and I can use the notes I made about the qestion to brush up, instead of the book. Of course some times it is good to go back and read more about the subject.
CBT with a search function is a good compliment to the some-times-not-so-easy-to-find-the-answer-in ATPL books.
D.

[RoosterBooster]

Cheers degothia,

Sounds a good enough method. I'm an Engineer so kinda get sucked into the nitty gritty of the material, wanting to know all the why's and how's etc:8 . As I said before it SURE does slow me down. I actually find the material quite interesting.

Keep em coming.

Cheers.

RB

[EK4457]

I am in the same boat, however, hopefully, not for long.

Currently doing module 1 with BGS and working full time at MAN.

It's difficult to say how many hours I do per day because I do shift work. Some days it's zero, some 4. I always do at least 5 on my days off.

I don't mind saying that it is sh*te. It has been said many times before, and I couldn't agree more, if you don't have to work, don't do it. You can end up really resenting what can be an interestng course (arf!).

If I carried on like this I estimate it will take me roughly 12 months, plus or minus 1.

However, I plan on only working for module 1 and studying full time for module 2 which will seem like (hopefully) a relative walk in the park.

Whatever your circumstances, stick with it. And have some paracetamol ready for gyroscopes.

EK

[chrisbl]

Some of the stuff is quite interesting and I was left wanting to know more. The usual answer was " Dont need to know for exams so forget it".
It left me feeling a bit resentful about the whole process, dare I say cynical even.

But it is true. Its about passing the exams not about learning anything.:ugh:

[RoosterBooster]

Chrisbl,

Thats my issue I can't always just let it go and move on. I can't manage to see it as a basic process to just pass the exams.

I start of quite well as you mentioned above and then I hit something I need to know more more about, and there I get stuck.

I'm on distance learning, I think if I was on a full time course it would be better for me as it would be more structured which I guess would reduce the chances of my mind going it alone.

RB

[expedite08]

Question bank is the way forward. Hammer it and learn the questions. Simple as that. Im working full time now after a spell of time off. It is hard going. Im taking a gamble I know by relying on the Q bank, but after sitting my Mod one exams I have every faith in it. Plus the brush up will do its part too.
Its ticks in boxes to be honest, thats the bottom line. I know some line pilots very well, who havent got a clue about some of the crap I rabbit on about when they ask how the study is going!! Enough said!!

[Mia Donna]

Well expedite I beg to differ! Its not just about passing exams and ticking boxes! You have to have an understanding about why and what you are doing this for. Would you consider bribeing your way through a flight test? One would hope not! I assure those of you, who are revising the answers to questions, rather than learning the subject matter that you will more than likely drop a few subjects over pass them first time!
Remember the industry that you are aspiring to enter into and the high standards it demands of the individual.

Anyone can learn text verbatim, anyone can tick boxes, only a few can be airline pilots. :ok:

[Walk the line]

Full time work. Air Traffic Controller. 7 Months. (Three sittings 7-5-2). Worked fine.Alot of committment required though, doubt I could have managed anything else on my plate though. Bristol GS Q Bank all the way.....!

WTL

[A330 Dreamer]

I work on a rotating shift pattern; 1 week I work 7-3, next week 3-11 then 3rd week 11pm-7am.

I assessed my lifestyle and said to myself in work I get 1 hour worth of break so instead of reading the paper I could be reading the BGS notes. so that gave me 5 hours per week right away. then I looked at my after hours work what do I do? so I packed the x-box back into the bag and put it away so it limits the distractions!

believe me that was hard! - its all about discipline. Some people say learn the question bank, I would agree with them - but dont learn that JUST to pass the exam, try and have an in-depth knowledge about the theory.

As 1 of my mentors once said to me - do you want to be a real pilot or do you want to just pass the exam?

Best of luck

[scroggs]

Mia Donna I admire your idealism, but the ATPL exams are about ticking boxes. They are simply a coarse filter to prevent just anyone getting a licence. There is no need to go deeper into the science of the topics while studying for the exams - indeed, I'd advise against it. The ATPL syllabus uses an abridged, simplified approach to the various subjects that can fall apart under detailed study. They have to be, to be examinable in the way that they are.

If you wish tolearn in greater depth about some or all of the ATPL subjects, do it after you've done the exams. As you will discover, much of the syllabus will be dumped once you get into actually flying aeroplanes. Some bits you will, in the natural course of things, learn more about - and you'll learn the truth, not the ATPL version!

The fact that most airline pilots could not hold a discussion with a ground school student about the ATPL topics is that, in many subjects, they would neither recognise the science nor would they use that knowledge - their brains have been emptied and refilled with genuinely useful stuff!

Don't lose sleep over it, just get through it.

Scroggs

[Grasscarp]

I didn't set myself a fixed number of hours a day as I had full time job and children. Had things to learn written on cards so even walking between offices at work was also studying. Had subjects on tapes I made myself to listen to in the car. (of course the children learnt quicker than me!)Also had GPWS data stuck to fish tank to study when washing up etc. Books dragged out whenever - and it was sometimes midnight. Tough times but can be done, and a short brush up course gave me practice and the all important questions. Hope it goes well for you too.

[RoosterBooster]

Thanks scroggs,

Its good to hear it from someone already deep in the industry like yourself. :ok:

Enjoy!

RB

[boogie-nicey]

There appears to be alot of X hrs and from X o'clock to whatever cut-off time in the evening or as in my case early morning :) Upon reflection I feel this wasn't necessarily the best way to approach the exams and forces most students to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Though the preparation for the ATPL exams is a trying time to say the least you can nevertheless decrease the burden upon yourselves by aiming for quality rather than quantity. Rather than the blind rush into the workload try and facilitate days off, like all athletes you train hard but then also require rest periods for the body to heal and thus fitness to rise. :)

When I first started it was like a bat out of hell and I would wake early in the morning to begin studying and then goto my 9-5 job upon returning I'd hit the books before a brief break and then back to them all the way upto midnight or more. My wife finally caused me to have a reality check and instead started to study with days off and also numerous breaks throughout study periods whilst also ditching the early morning sessions. With this increased sleep and consequently reduced stress I started to make far better progress than before. I have maintained the same routine ever since and can see the marked difference from before where I'd constantly go over and over the same subject matter because it just wasn't going in.

Just my 2 cents worth, I realise that everyone's different but to run a marathon you shouldn't sprint. If anything save that for the brush up sessions, you'll need it. ;)

I wish all my fellow ATPL peers the very best of luck!:ok:

[Wodka]

Started in Mid October, still bashing though the phase 1 reading ... was originally hoping to be doing brush up now for phase 1 but i'm behind my schedule I set ... Im not having a mad panic though, just keeping the momentum going.

I generally take my books with me wherever I go... I get 40mins each way on the train to study, 1-2 hrs in the eve (not every eve though) and try and do 1-2 full days per weekend. My aim is to use any dead time (travelling etc) reading notes. I tried the old 3hrs each eve, but it just doesnt happen some nights and like other said, when your looking at the same paragraph for 20mins its time for a beer!

At the moment, I reckon I'll be done by xmas :D

[m4x]

Hi there.

I have just started present ATPL ground school and finding problem to hang on with the studdies. It's a 9 month course including summer holidays (approx 1 and halv month). I know that this is serious, and sacrifice almost all my spare time to studdy..but it is just TOO MUCH!

I start 08.00 or 09.00 oclock, coming home 16.00 - 18.00 and have 4 hours for studdying the pages we went through the day. Just the reading take 2-3 hours and my brain is total exhausted after that and have no time to really go deeply and analyze some pages that feels really important to understand.

Some days it feels that i don't the enery to read because im too tired. This get me stressed because nothing is really got caught in my head. The weekends is only the day I have really time to go through and repeat deeply and before writing exams, but it's a short time.

This is something I want to learn and not just pass the exams..so please, have you any idea / study techniques you could share to make this easier for me? Everything is appreciated.

Flight greetings

m4x

[JUST-local]

m4x

Don't worry about it, I also ended up doing full time study and was in a similar position 8 hours at the school and then feeling worried about how much or how little of it I could remember. YOU CANNOT STUDY ALL DAY AND ALL NIGHT! The technique used on my last module was relax a bit more in the class and take less notes than I was doing, after the 8 hours at school I would take 1-2 hours off then I would spend 1 hour max going over key points of the day (drawing tables etc.) which were put on my large notice board. I would then spend varying amounts of time doing as many feedback questions as I could get hold off. I would get the Bristol online database asap as I found it very good practise, flight plannning and genral nav. require lots of practise as you need to be fairly quick and accurate with the questions. It seems very daunting near the start of the ATPL's work hard but relax in between and you will be ok.

Best of luck.

[Bandit650]

Hi m4x

Check out this thread on the subject I started a while ago:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=267998

I would ignore any disheartening comments, there is nothing unsual about you situation. My comments would be:

1. It takes a while to get into the swing of it and find your own effective techniques and practices.
2. Don't be too ambitious about timescales . You don't get any extra brownie points for finishing in 8mths as opposed to 15mths. Concentrate on quality time of study time, not quantity. I don't study past 9pm, I usually do 1-2 hrs before work, 2hrs during the day at work (!) and maybe an hour in the evening, plus time on the train in/out of London every day. Seems to work quite well.
3. Getting up very early and studying is better then studying in the evening. Better to use your evening for sleeping!
4. I guess the previous points lead to...having a study plan.
5. Don't try to reach some kind of nirvana of understanding on each topic. Firstly, the material isn't appropriate for doing so, and secondly its just about passing exams.its not a Phd....you can go back and do it in more depth after you have qualified if you want to.
6. Half the battle is being familiar with how the exam questions are phrased and applying your recall to them correctly. Therefore I personally am spending at least a third of my time practising questions from question banks.

and finally, don't get disheartened (thats a waste of valueable time for a start!)....and try and enjoy the work....some of it is actually interesting...I thought, for example, I knew a bit about how wings worked from my PPL...I now realise I knew diddly squat (now I just know squat!)...

all the best:ok:

[Deano777]

m4x

I sure fire way to make yourself pull your finger out and get your arse in gear is to book the exams, it worked for me twice :ok:

[airjunkie]

I am still in the middel of these exams, but so far.. still a good average.

I know there's a lot of people around learning only feedback ;) even for calculation questions (gennav mass ballance etc). That does not work for me, it saves you a hell of a lot of time just to learn the methods in this case. Make little drawings of compass and polar chart q's.

For all the other questions I use the (expensinve) Bristol to prepare, but I also use this site http://atpl.sep2jet.com to do some quizzes. Keeps track of results and its free!

Personally I think performance was the most difficult so far, not much questions, so bust 1 4 pointer and your getting low already ;) and we used the old CAP :yuk:

Good luck!

[leeds 65]

All you need to do is memorise bristols question bank for each subject until you get 98% or above. The caa will use feedback for at least 70% of each paper and often a lot higher than that eg comms and law.This basically means that you can guess the rest and still pass and if you know anything you should get over 80% +. so my advise to you is to do 50 questions per day in each bank and then blitz it on weekends.Bristol got a huge grant to set up the question bank.THE CAA DO USE IT. :cool:

[Turbine King]

:=

Or you could learn the subjects!

[balboa]

Turbine and Leeds are both correct- learn the stuff as best you can- but use bristol to make sure you pass. Do invest in Oxford's excellent CDROM material- bear in mind they don't use this in class....strange.......

[neilia]

Bristol got a huge grant to set up the question bank.THE CAA DO USE IT.

This is curious. Are you suggesting that the CAA take their questions from Bristol's database? I understood it to be the other way round...

[expedite08]

It dosent really matter, Leads 65 has hit the nail on the head. On my last brush up, guys who were ofay with the subjetcs got hit hard when doing feedback questions.(especially those with no exposeure to the Qbank!!) Its not about the knowledge its about interpretation! Most of the questions are riddles to figure out. Its more like sitting reasoning tests than knowledge exmainations!

People knew the gen but couldnt handle the questioning style, thats where the Question bank is like pure gold!! Well done Alex and Bristol

:ok:

[13375p34k]

Read the topic

Discuss.

[Platinum206]

I'm sorry but that has to be the most absurd statement I have ever heard.

ATPL theory to many is extremely difficult and many simply cannot get their heads around the various topics.

Whereas others may have a problem in learning off many many rules/ laws figures etc that seem totally unneccesary and irrelevant to the modern day commercial airline pilot.

On the other hand there are the type of people that can learn anything given the time.

That is why I believe it is impossible to either agree or disagree 100% with this statement.

There are too many different types of people out there with different aptitudes for different aspects of learning to sweep all with the one brush.

Take another look at the subjects and realise the difference between studyin for Air Law/ Comms etc and compare them to studying for Instruments/ Radio Nav etc.

Apples and Oranges my friend.

[captain_rossco]

And what exactly are we meant to be discussing here? and what a first post! That has to be up there with some of the absolute gems from xxx147.

Any in depth subject is likely to be rather difficult if an individual refuses to read through the material that explains it!

:mad: :mad:

[WindSheer]

I believe the groundschool is so intense and filled with such apparently 'useless' information, so as to filter out the people who really shouldn't be chasing this fantastic career!!
Yes its hard, and the only people that get all the way through it are the people that REALLY want the career!!

Bit of a weird statement at the top though!!!

[Grass strip basher]

I think the fact that many many people pass the ATPL exams after a bit of work with averages in the low-mid 90s tells you that the exams are not hard if you put your mind to them and have a moderate level of academic ability.... why is that so controversial??
You should try professional accounting or medical exams.... those can be very tough

[BlueRobin]

Can we claim the old stereotype here? Little Johnny (or Jenny) not wanting to go to Uni and not really sure what they want in life, spring upon the idea of doing an ATPL (PPL/ATPL paid for by parents) as a way of making money and doing...something. However when it comes to doing the theory the usual issues of maturity, experience and dedication ensue.

[hobbit1983]

Well, it can't be that hard if (presumably) you can take time out from your studies to post pointless & patronising "Discuss" threads on PPRuNe, 13375p34k....

[RVR800]

Well there is a lot to learn but the average pass mark is very high for most schools. (>90)

Its a little easier now that the question banks are available electronically the www is a great tool for self directed learning

No negative marking as there used to be in the UK; and no morse exam

As for medicine that requires high grades to enter flying requires none just determination

[Token Bird]

why study in the first place if you don't want to do it?

A good question and one I asked myself when I was on my full-time groundschool course. Considering that we'd all paid £6000 for the privilege I was surprised how the class divided into two approximately equal halves - one half who studied their asses off and one who had no interest in learning whatsoever. The second lot were only interested in thinking about the IR they were going to do further down the line, and saw the groundschool merely as an inconvenient hurdle on the path to the airlines. Many people may consider the ATPL theory to be essentially packed full of irrelevant nonsense, but we still all have to pass it, so what's the point in complaining.

It may be worth pointing out that at least one of the people who didn't study was still trying to pass his exams two years after the first of us passed!

TB

[BlueRobin]

Heh, sounds familiar!!! Were you in my class recently, TB?

Trouble is with full-time classroom study, the disruptive lot spoils the efforts for those who need to study their arses off in order to get a decent chance of passing first time. Distance-learning is an advantage in this respect.

[npasque]

the ATPL theory is hard, but it certainly is not impossible to pass if you study. i passed flight planning on my first attempt just the other day, and im sitting performance next monday.

we'll see how it works out but its not THAT difficult.

however i agree with token bird, the classes are very much divided into two halves. very interesting :hmm:

[RITZER82]

By the way how many questions are there in each subject of the tests and what is the time limit for each of the tests carried out, thanks.

[G SXTY]

Welcome to Pprune 13375p34k – not bad for a first post!

Like many theory exams, the ATPLs are probably as big a test of motivation as ability. So yes, if you are not motivated to study, you will certainly find them harder.

But – I was highly motivated, and some sections of General Nav and Instruments (Gyros in particular) had me banging my head on the wall and losing the will to live. It wasn’t for the lack of trying, I just couldn’t get some of it into my head. (Still managed 98% in General Nav exam though.) :ok:

So no, I don’t agree with your rather simplistic assertion

Discuss. :)

[Finals19]

Sorry to deviate slightly, but just to re-iterate the last but one poster here, can anybody indicate the approximate amount of questions for each subject and time allowed (i.e. subject, least questions, time allowed, subject, most questions, time allowed)

I have just been banging my head against the wall doing progress tests in Gen.Nav chart plotting and the bl**dy things were taking me a fair amount of time per question to complete (my head feels numb now!) :* :rolleyes:

[G SXTY]

I don't have all my feedback notes to hand, so here's a partial answer. (All errors due to memory loss induced by post-exam refreshments);)
Principles of Flight
1hr, approx 44 questions
Aircraft General Knowledge
2hrs, approx 99 questions
Performance
1hr, approx 34 questions
Ops Procedures
1hr20, approx 50 questions
Radio Nav
1hr30, approx 59 questions
Law
1hr40, approx 75 questions
Mass & Balance
1hr
Instruments
1hr30
Flight Planning
3hrs
General Nav
2hrs
Meteorology
2hrs30
Human Performance
1hr
VFR Comms
30 mins
IFR Comms
30 mins
Time is not an issue on most of the 'general knowledge' exams, as you either know the answer or you don't - one of my group set a new World record by finishing VFR comms in 2 1/2 minutes.:ok:
Questions involving calculation or plotting slow you down, but the marks are weighted in favour of these questions, and the time allowed is usually adequate. The only exception seemed to be General Nav, which many people struggled to finish. Probably not what you wanted to hear, but by the time you have finished the groundschool brush-up you'll be doing these exams in your sleep, so you'll be well prepared.

[camel toe]

Is that a true statement that Morse is no longer tested? I imagine it's a very useful "tool" when identing stuff.
Probably good airmanship to learn it well, even if no longer part of the ATPL syllabus.
Camel Toe
"Over Macho Grande?"

[nanocas]

Hi all!
I am hoping someone can help me out on this one:
I am still doing my practical flight training for the ppl part and have already passed the theory exams. I have now purchased the ATPL books from oxford aviation in order to start studying for that already(I will be doing distance learning).
Problem is, got the books but have no idea where/how to start. I know that there is a "study diary" or something like that, that shows you what to aim for everyday?
Can anyone help me out on this? copy of this diary/schedule?
confused...:ugh:
Thanks a lot!

[Leezyjet]

Have you just bought the books or have you enrolled on a specific course which is actually required in order to sit the exams ?. Simply buying all the books is not sufficient, you have to be enrolled on a recognised course and the course info should provide you with a study guide.

:)

[nanocas]

Hi again! well, I only bought the books because I cannot yet actually enroll on the distance learning course since I have not yet finished the practical part of the PPL. But as I do not want to "waste" the time I have right now, I decided to start studying already from the books, what I am missing though is this "studying scheme/diary".... I think that would make it easier to assess my own progress..
any ideas??
thanks!:p

[G SXTY]

I had the same idea nanocas, but I found it didn’t work very well in practice.

The problem is that the ATPLs cover such a vast array of subjects, and in such detail, that you would be swamped if you tried to read up on everything beforehand. An even if you picked only one subject, you would still need to focus on the bits that are relevant to (a) the syllabus and (b) the exam. That’s where the structured course comes in – when you start the course the study pack will guide you on which subjects to study and in what order.

Background reading will not do you any harm, but bear in mind that a lot of information needs to be learnt for the exam, and can safely be forgotten afterwards (e.g. the minimum size of registration letters on an airship, or the orbital altitude of GPS satellites). :rolleyes:

Personally I would enjoy finishing the PPL, then through yourself into the ATPLs once you can focus on them without any other distractions.

[nanocas]

Tnaks G SXTY, I have found exactly what you have mentioned! Not having the guide, I have just picked up one subject to start with (performance and planning 1) started studying but find it quite annoying at some stages as I come across theory or simply names that I am totally not familiar with which must be explained in some other book, or part of a book, which I should have probably read before.... so I do get stuck sometimes. I would love to just sit back and wait until I have finished the practical part of the ppl (theory done already), but I am 32 already and feel that I should hurry things up a bit if I am ever going to take a chance at this new career:)
I have sent an email to the chief ground instructor at my flying school with the humble request for a study pack, that was a month ago and i had no reply yet...:sad:

[Wodka]

Hey nanocas (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=163464)

If you want to get a structured start, these are the first few frames from the OAT distance learning course. You wont have the COAP papers though yet, but gets you going in the right order...


Ph1/01 - Instruments Ch1-9, book 5, subject 1
Principles of flight Ch1-4, book 13

Ph1/02 - Hydraulics Ch1, book 2, subject 2
DC electrics Ch1-4, book 3, subject 1

Ph1/03 - Principles of flight Ch5-8, book 13
Landing gear Ch1-4, book2, subject 3


That should keep you busy for a couple of weeks!

Cheers

Wodka!

[nanocas]

HEY! Thanks a lot Wodka!! That is certainly going to help me a lot!!! great!, as soon as I have finished with that part (in about a week....hehe) I will be asking you for the rest!!!!

This makes a lot more sense to me now! thanks!:ok:

[cpt. greek]

Im leaving in greece and i want to start the atpl theory in distance from bristol.what is the minimum requirements for the time.they have tell me that it is 9 months minimum.this is true?????? please help me.

[potkettleblack]

Read LASORS mate, all the rules of the game are in there if you want to do it under the UK CAA. Its readily available from the CAA website.

Also read the big sticky at the top of this forum and find out how the whole system works as it appears you are probably missing something along the way if you think that 9 months is unrealistic to sit 14 exams, travel to the UK for a min of 2 brush up courses of 2-3 weeks each followed by 2 exam sittings of 7 papers in each and of course pass everything first time.

[degothia]

Hey nanocas! If you are reading ahead on the ATPL I would recomend you start with "Principles of Flight". Performance is based on that subject and alot of stuf from PoF show up in other subjects as well. So dont start with Performance, that will only confuse you.
I would also recomend that you read the easier subjects like "VFR/IFR Com", "Mass and Balance" and "Human Performance".
When time comes get a good qestion bank, not Aerosolutions Abacus (it was good for practising but very few official questions), that will save a lot of time.
I am sorry to say that the time when you study ATPL will not be the best of your life, but on the other hand when you finnish things will look alot brighter. Belive me, I know, I just finnished my exams this friday.
regards
D.

[nanocas]

Hi Degothia, thanks for the tips! and congratulations on finishing your studies! how long did it take you? I quit my day job as an auditor to do this, but still don't have so much free time with 3 children and husband to take care of!!! :}

I know the studying will not be easy.. it took me 5-6 months for the ppl theory...and that seems a lot less than the kilometers of books I am looking at for the ATPL!
Cheers!

[degothia]

It tock me forever to finish my ATPLs so dont use me as ameasure. I work full time and kind of under estimated how much it was to read, and over estimated my own ability... There were times when I didnt study for months but I finaly got my act together and forced my self to do it. Its al down to hard work (and a good question bank).
When I studied the most my wife had to take care of all the logistics, I didnt help her with anything ( I made it up to her by takeing her shoping this saturday), maby you should prepare your husband for that...
It is good that you have taken time of from work, that will help alot. The one thing I wanted for my 33d birthday was time.
check your PMs
D.

[Pilotbeijing]

For ATPL passes go to the BRISTOL WEBSITE example questions are pretty good, sorry did i say example questions i meant feedback!!