View Full Version : Airline Psychometric Tests


J-Low
23rd Dec 2003, 19:25
Hi guys,

Do any of you have any hot tips on recomended reading material for the dreaded aptitiude/psychometric tests, or possible websites to visit for practice?.... or horror stories from interviews that you'd like to share.....

Many thanks

J-Low:ok:



winch launch
23rd Dec 2003, 21:47
Hi,

Unfortunatly, i know few psychometric test preparation stuff, and they are in french. But I heard about an organization in England specialized in that. It s SHL, and they have a website where there are one or two small tests to train.
http://www.shldirect.com/shldirect-homepage/SHLDirect-1.asp
Other than that, practice some IQ tests. But there is much more to do, and many other types of questions which you can t train in IQ tests. So if anyone has advices or know books, websites, programs.... please tell us.

Winch:ok:

omnidirectional
23rd Dec 2003, 23:47
I used some books published by the Times that I got from my local library, not sure if you can really practice the abstract stuff but it helps to give you a general idea what is required.

High Wing Drifter
24th Dec 2003, 03:01
I am not a pro-pilot just another wanabe who has asked the same questions.

I bought "The Time Psychometric Tests" CD ROM from Amazon. Has been the best aid thus far.

Also, plot your way to http://www.qantas.com.au/info/about/employment/pilots and look at the practice test leaflet (top left). This gives you an idea of the kind of time constraints you can expect.

JetSetJim
24th Dec 2003, 06:42
Have a look at the book suggestions in the recent 'Aptitude Tests' post on the other wannabes forum - they're a pretty safe bet.

mazzy1026
9th Feb 2004, 20:26
Sorry if this has been written - the search was down.

I want to brush up on some maths skills like long division/multiplication - also working out percentages from decimals and large numbers etc.

Reason being I want to do the psychometric tests quicker - I find them quiet alright to do, but struggle sometimes on the paper based calculations.

I did the numerical test here (http://www.shldirect.com/phasei/practicesection-phaseII/Practice-18.asp?ID=4030BE2E6A1A4BDFB776EDC2826E7949) and scored high above average, however, some of the questions that involved making large calculations (especially the percentage ones) and division/multiplication etc were a little difficult.

Does anyone know any good sites or source of info where I can brush up on these maths skills, especially those required for psychometric testing ?

Many thanks:8

AIRWAY
10th Feb 2004, 18:55
Hello,

Check Qantas website, they have a PDF file which you can print out of psychometric testing.

:ok:

Wrong Sisters
10th Feb 2004, 19:56
mazzy 1026

I bought these and they have helped me pass two sets of tests ..."More How to Win at Aptitude Tests" by Liam Healy - ISBN 0 00 711257 - Omnia Books Ltd - £4.99 and “How to Master Personality Questionnaires” by Mark Parkinson – ISBN 0 7494 3419 8 - £7.99 from Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk).

If you want to do a practice trick cyclist test and find out what your personality is like, rather than what you think it is try this (http://www.gs3online.com/gsonline/tests/Ajtionlineqnew.htm). I didn't think 60 questions could do it but I was amazed - be honest - don't try to look at what they might be after - there are reverse questions in the larger tests to make sure you are not trying to sway it.

M.85
10th Feb 2004, 20:32
should change my name to ESFJ...need to convince a lady im that attentive to her personal feelings...;)

M.85

donaldstan
11th Feb 2004, 14:24
i've tried the test in the website. not bad.

what kinda result do airlines look for in a pilot?

mazzy1026
11th Feb 2004, 16:48
I now know what you mean M85 !

I too got something like EMFJ (or whatever). told em I was a sensitive caring person and blaa blaa

Was wel pi55ed off when it asked me for a tenner though ! I was relieved to see a preview !

:ok:

High Wing Drifter
11th Feb 2004, 18:53
Hmmm, tried these before and got either ESTJ or ISTJ. Just tried that one and got ENTJ. Does seem to be some similarity at least!

batty
12th Feb 2004, 21:26
I was INTJ. What do the airlines prefer?

M.85
12th Feb 2004, 22:11
had a question in sky europe psychological test asking if I thought wine were good for the soul...
Said No but was tempted otherwise..the soul term wasnt specific enough...:p ;)

M.85

jam123
12th Feb 2004, 23:11
I got ENFJ - can someone tell me what that means???

would i make it as a pilot or not??:confused:

Jeffrey S
13th Feb 2004, 02:57
i got ISTJ:hmm: .....

gomez
13th Feb 2004, 16:34
Have a look at http://www.personalitypathways.com/type_inventory.html
for some info about the Myers-Briggs types.

I would say that ENTJ is the ideal for a pilot.

I think I got ESTJ

Pilot Pete
13th Feb 2004, 17:34
Airlines that use this sort of categorisation don't look for only one 'type', rather certain traits that many different types can have, so don't think there is only one 'ideal' profile that all pilots must fit into, there isn't. Many moons ago the ethos was that the old 'stable extrovert' was the be all and end all of character sets for pilots. This had it's merits as these people tend to be able to function under pressure, judging facts as presented to them and making judgement calls and actually 'doing something' which is pretty desirable in an emergency!

But, there is a downside as well, if all your pilots are stable extroverts (and extreme ones at that) they are unlikely to work well as a team, hence the cross section of personalities that airlines tend to desire now, but still with the ability to make correct judgements (but hopefully with an open enough personality to acknowledge that we are all able to make bad ones too!)

A good cross section has been found to be more desirable to enlightened airlines so don't worry specifically which one you are, rather that you remain totally honest and consistent when answering these profiles to ensure you get consistent results.

I have several links to tests and explainations on my website, if you click the WWW on my profile.

Regards

PP

StudentInDebt
13th Feb 2004, 18:27
If its a comfort to some of you then I got ENFJ and I fly medium-heavy jets for a charter airline.

Having said that I think you should heed Pilot Pete's advice on this - while airlines use personality profiles to screen candidates they are not necessarily an instant chop factor. I believe I'm correct in saying that PF tests should be used in conjunction with an interview to determine whether a candidate is suitable.

It would be far more prudent to concentrate on the critical thinking, spatial awareness and arithmetic aspects to modern selection

Jeffrey S
13th Feb 2004, 19:35
bad news!

Under ISTP:

People of this type tend to be: logical, pragmatic, and matter of fact; quiet, unassuming, and autonomous; realistic, pragmatic, and aloof; impulsive and curious about the physical world; flexible and resourceful; objective and unemotional.

Then under "great careers for an ISTP" its states:

Computer programmer

Commercial pilot

Crisis hotline operator

Police officer

Software developer


That was none of us!!

However I agree with Pete on this one, it can't be an instant chop factor, or can it? :confused: :confused: :confused:

High Wing Drifter
13th Feb 2004, 19:59
Well I'm not an ISTP but I am a fantastic Software Developer :E

Pilot Pete
14th Feb 2004, 18:07
I'm no expert, but from my experiences they tend to run these tests to give them some sort of 'scientific' evidence for use at interview. Let me explain;

If for instance your profile results said you were (relatively) weak in a particular area, that would be something that might warrant further inspection during interview. Lets say you appeared to lack ambition. They may ask you at interview where you see yourself in a few years time, asking about what you want to achieve, areas you may see yourself progressing into etc. This may allay their fears or confirm them!

I had just such a scenario, which I was told about after I had been given the job. My results said I lacked ambition, but put into context once I had been questioned at interview it was clear there was good reason for this; I had been under threat of redundancy for nearly 12 months after 9/11, loaned out for the summer with no leave entitlement, a baby on the way with suspected birth defects (turned out fine), big mortgage, wife, two other kids ..............etc etc. On debrief the HR Director said it wasn't really surprising that my long term career goals weren't at the forefront when I answered the profile questions!

So you see the profile is just another tool to try to get to the 'real' you, just like a Maths or English test, a spatial reasoning test, even a sim ride. Usually a profile is not taken in isolation and used to chop a candidate, whereas the other 'paper' type exams may be. It's a cost thing. It's relatively cheap to run a days testing in a classroom for thirty applicants and to run Maths/ English/ Spacial Reasoning type tests and to possibly sit the profile and group type tests too. The expensive part is the interview (time consuming as you can't really do a group interview!) and sim assessment (for obvious reasons!), so airlines will tend to use the cheaper tests to see which candidates meet a certain base level before offering the more expensive tests to those successful at stage one.

Regards

PP
ESTJ:)

High Wing Drifter
15th Feb 2004, 00:50
Thanks for that Pete, seems entirely reasonable if you ask me - that is so long as I get the job, otherwise utterly unreasonable :}

Most important thing is that we can see whats expected more than anything.

BTW, try this (http://eugrad.jpmorgan.com/content/context_gen.htm?content/content_132.htm). I found it friggin' hard doing it cold. See how you get on. I needed to use IE as it does not seem to be Netscape compatible.

HWD
(ESTJ, ISTJ and occasional ENTJ) :uhoh:

number
17th Feb 2004, 05:27
If you want to do a practice trick cyclist test and find out what your personality is like, rather than what you think it is try this. I didn't think 60 questions could do it but I was amazed - be honest - don't try to look at what they might be after - there are reverse questions in the larger tests to make sure you are not trying to sway it

and should I pay 10£ for that?
*ROTFL*

alexb757
19th Feb 2004, 06:39
In response to your question ENFJ = Extraversion/Intuition/Feeling/Judging.

The crystal ball says "Warm, empathetic, responsive and responsible. Highly attuned to emotions, needs and motivations of others. Find potential in everyone, want to help others fulfill their potential. May act as catalysts for individual and group growth. Loyal, responsive to praise and criticism. Sociable, facilitate others in a group, and provide inspiring leadership."

Don't have the professions type list based on these traits but would agree with Pilot Pete sentiments. At first pass, the ones that do conjur a picture would include social worker.

And for what it's worth, I am an ESTJ, an unemployed ex-Pat pilot living in the USA (where it is a totally different ball game - even PP would be surprised to know what I have discovered here), with a number of ICAO ATPLs and three Boeing type ratings but no job and no interview in almost 15 months of trying everything - and I mean everything. Interestingly, some of my earlier adversities mirror PP's but unlike him, I live in another country where all kinds of other things come into play.

Having got my UK CAA ATPL and had two previous airline jobs based in the UK, one thing I have observed over the years are the basic DIFFERENCES between two similar but very different cultures - US & EU/UK. In most of my experiences between the two, the Europeans are much more friendly and willing to talk to you (probably a numbers game) and generally are more conducive to assist you. They will tell you outright if they are hiring and what you need to do to get an interview. In the US, the norm is to get NO response at all even if you have been bugging them for months. Most will openly post "no walk-ins, no phone calls, no faxes - apply on line" or "only those that meet the above requiremnts and are current and typed need apply". HR's only raison d'etre is to screen candidates out - not to encourage them. The biggest problem by far is getting to an interview. Just because you are qualified and experienced and meet all their requirements does not mean you're going to be viewed favorably. Rather, if you know and have at least 3 or 4 strong recommendations from current pilots with that airline, that may be enough to tip the scales. I am something of an expert in CVs and cover letters, having spent considerable time and energy (as well as professional advice similar to PP) revamping and customizing them many times. In my case, it still did not make a difference and since they do not respond, one just keeps spinning wheels.

Unfortunately, coming back to the UK is not an option for me even though I did just that 6 years ago and was very successful. As the saying goes only in America.......

Good luck to everyone in what is probably the toughest career out there. You also need plenty of luck which of course, cannot be taught!

ex-757driver

h1tman47
9th Mar 2006, 09:19
Hello All,

Does anyone out there know of any good book that can be helpful in preparing for Airline Psychometric Tests. Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
h1tman47

Dannyc
9th Mar 2006, 12:02
Hi There

Kogan Publishers provide a wide range of books for psychometric and aptitude test although these are not specifically designed for 'airlines', though I have used them and find them extremely helpful.

The topics they cover include mathematical and verbal reasoning, aptitude tests, psychometric tests etc...

Have a look at the link below:

http://www.kogan-page.co.uk/careersandtesting.aspx

In particular I recommend the 'How to pass Technical Tests'.

Cheers,

Danny.:ok:

Dannyc
9th Mar 2006, 17:29
:ugh:

Sorry,

Forgot to mention in the left hand corner of tha page you will find 'Subject Areas', click on 'Testing' and it will give you some further reading to look at.

Hope it comes of some help.

Cheers,

Danny;)

flying 2 low
18th Mar 2006, 05:01
Would any of these cover the entry-level psychological profiling- used even for ground positions?
I've been screened out a couple of times by what seemed like really inane surveys.
Then again, maybe they know somthing I don't.:confused:

Dannyc
18th Mar 2006, 08:26
h1tman47,

These books unfortunatley wont help with 'psychological profiling', this is altogether a different kettle of fish.

There has often been an argument that it is possible to prepare for these tests by answering the questions to give a profile that will most likely match the position available. However the tests are designed in such a way that applicants 'bending the truth' will be caught out.:ugh:

My personal views are that these tests and questions involved in them can only be answered truthfully!:{

Best of luck,

dannyc:ok:

gone till november
18th Mar 2006, 09:46
Hitman

Try this one as well. Its the same style as the BA interview aptitude tests.
http://www.shavick.com/psycotest.htm

There was quite a good link on the Cathay interview as well
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=153728

Also try the SHL website were you can do soem practice tests online and get feedback.
http://www.shldirect.com/shldirect-homepage/SHLDirect-1.asp

Good luck and the best advice is to relax.:ok:

flying 2 low
19th Mar 2006, 22:48
I know, the people who make a career out of hiring must know a few things I don't- just wish that instead of just telling me what I am not qualified for that somone would give me a clue as to what I should be doing....:uhoh:

Martin4
18th Jul 2006, 21:00
Could try www.amazon.co.uk (http://www.amazon.co.uk) , good psychometric testing and aptitude books on there.

Thats a good book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749442794/026-4157160-5162060?v=glance&n=266239

or this one "Aviation Psychology: Practice and Research"
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0754640175/026-4157160-5162060?v=glance&n=266239

ExpeditePlease
24th Jul 2006, 12:36
this may help as well

http://www.cockpitweb.com/pilottest.html

good luck, EP

Piltdown Man
24th Jul 2006, 15:52
Don't forget what the point of these "marvellous" tests are - they there are to make money for the w:mad:ers who write them and to make the slime in Human Remains feel as they have done their job properly because they have done something which sounds very clever and was expensive to administer (these tests cost a fortune). When you do the test you don't have time to think about the answers and they are too many checks to test the answers you have previously given. Just pitch up and do it - I've only heard of one person failing and he eventually became a captain for a well known LCC. You can send me the cash you would have spent on the book (and I'll spend it on beer).

PM

tasleon
8th Sep 2006, 18:48
Hi all,

Will be attending a pilot selection scheme soon and would like to gain some extra knowledge on psychometric testing (what its all about, sample questions etc......)

Any feedback will be well appreciated

Many thanks in advance.

tasleon

bermudatriangle
9th Sep 2006, 22:03
Just remember the profile is looking for a stable extrovert.Think about your answers,they want you to work as a team player,have a bit of personality,and be level headed.simple if you think about it.

Weekillie
10th Sep 2006, 06:59
These tests can easily be manipulated - I've done it on two occasions, one for a job as an Enterprise Consultant and the next as a Lecturer. You just have to remain consistant with your answers. They are designed to try and catch you out, but bear in mind the marks are coughed up by a computer, not someone that actually knows you.

Marloo
15th Oct 2006, 02:12
I thought it would be helpful if we could have a comprehensive summary of all of the aptitude/psychometric tests that are used by different airlines and/or sponsorship programs.

So feel free to add what you know I will kick it off with.

BA - psychomotor - pilapt
- psychometric - SHL verbal and maths. Maths is not the data
interpt style used by other airlines. The maths is not like this link http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/employment/QTests.pdf this would be the kind of maths used on the Jet2 selection test.

CTC/Wings - psychomotor - pilapt
maths - 15 questions / 15 minutes raw data(no calculator)

Cathay Cadets - In terms of IQ tests there is a matrix test where you
are given eight symbols in a matrix and have to chose
the final symbol. Also a maths test of thirty questions
- similar to BA??

Jet2: SHL verbal and numerical reasoning . Numerical is data interpretation al la Qantas , but not the BA maths

Flybe : Pilapt plus a maths and physics test

Cityjet: Abstract , Numerical , Spatial and Mechanical

Air Atlantique: Numerical and Verbal(SHL ??)

BA Connect : ??

Excel / Thomas Cook(Oxford Program)pilapt plus a maths and also a physics test/around GCSE level)

BobbyK
15th Oct 2006, 13:10
The Excel/Thomas Cook testing is exactly the same as the Oxford Aviation testing called COMPASS. COMPASS comprises of 6 tests with one being 24 maths questions in 20 minutes. There is also a seperate Technical test which is 15 multiple choice physics questions with no time limit. Then to finish off you do a pyschometric personality profile.

Each COMPASS test is out of 7 and so your total score is out of 42. I dont know what the pass mark for Oxford is but for the Excel scheme it was around 33 although I heard they were looking for 36+. For the technical testing I believe for Oxford it's 10/15 but again I think Excel were looking for 12+

Hope that helps

Marloo
15th Oct 2006, 22:24
Ok keep it coming all applicants are going to have to do these at some point so central information is important.

RAF/RN: pilapt tests - same as civilian version ? anything else ?

Qantas Cadetship : Maths , Verbal , Spatial , Commands

Luftansa: DLR

scroggs
16th Oct 2006, 12:16
RAF (and other military) recruiting is nothing to do with this forum and is covered quite adequately in the Military Pilots forum. If you wish to do the research, the recruiting procedures of almost every airline in existence are covered in threads in this and the Terms and Endearments forums (T&E exists for experienced pilots, who are excluded from Wannabes).

Scroggs

Professor Plum
16th Oct 2006, 17:28
The RAF/RN/AAC Aptitude tests are diffierent from the Pilapt ones.

They are, however, the same as the GAPAN ones.... http://www.gapan.org/careers/aptitude.htm

Bertram37
16th Oct 2006, 23:49
This thread is a very good idea having detailed information in one place could save many many hours of looking through info that is often incomplete/ incorrect .

My brief contribution:

CTC ATP program: use testing definetly maths test pilapt also
I will check with old flying school friend who
did it recently


There must be others out there who recently gained employ with Easyjet , Ryanair , BMI , BMI Baby, TC, TF, First Choice. Anyone care to assist fATPL people who are seeking that first job?

roxi
17th Oct 2006, 16:14
:ok: Nice one Marloo..

I have recently failed a maths test and aptitude test for ThomsonFly :ugh: . It is about time we ppruners helped each other on this topic. I was gutted not to get through the first stage of the selection after so much hard work getting there in the first place. A lot of the maths presented on the selection got most people in the room flustered – is this the way airlines recruit, ie what has doing a fraction got to do with flying a plane? At least Ryanair have the right idea – ie can you fly. Anyway, if anyone can help here it would be very well received.

Roxi

Pilot Pete
17th Oct 2006, 18:07
Roxi

Not understanding basic maths as a commercial pilot will leave you short of a required skill. And I mean basic maths. Think about how often it is used;

Performance calculations
Fuel uplifting
Fuel burns compared to computed flight plan
Adjustments to planned fuel
Weight and balance calculations, including index calculations/ adjustments
Manual loadsheet completion
Descent path planning and adjustment
Landing performance calculations

The list could go on. Out of all the tests that some airlines run, maths is one which DOES make sense to be using.:rolleyes:

PP

boeingbus2002
17th Oct 2006, 22:57
Roxi
One could argue Ryanair do have the right idea...anyone who can do the maths and stump up £26k ontop of a £40k debt and still walk out smiling must be a genius!:ugh:

roxi
18th Oct 2006, 09:07
Nice one Pilot Pete? I was trying to get to the fact that as a pilot you should know basic maths but unless you are practiced on particular subjects, ie fractions, you will be hampered in these tests. I was well up to speed on what I thought was required for the test but I failed to look at one element - so as a result my performance was weak. It would be good to gather information together to find out what is required on these tests so you can be better prepaired.

The selection room at Thomson was full of current jet pilots who all found the testing hard. Most of them hadn't seen a fraction since A level maths, so not sure what you call basic maths Pete?

Cheers

Roxi

bjkeates
18th Oct 2006, 09:29
Sorry for dragging this off topic, but I don't see why people get so terrified of fractions. A-level maths?! It's year 7, beginning of secondary school, 11-year-old standard maths - if you can't do them by the time you get to A-level, then you're going to struggle with A-level maths!! Pilot Pete is absolutely right, it is a very basic skill but one which you will find cropping up over and over again without you even realising. You won't always have the luxury of being able to sit working through a calculation to ten decimal places with a battery-powered calculator - you need to be able to do it quickly and simple fractions are an excellent way of approximating. It's only a way of expressing one number divided by another, and manipulating fractions in sums requires only the most basic addition and multiplication skills.

I'm really intrigued actually... what sort of problems exactly were you having with them?

pg wing tips
18th Oct 2006, 09:46
Pilot Pete/ bjkeates – what u say is true and a fair point. I think it is sometimes difficult to see the correlation between the maths tests provided and what is required everyday flying. The calculations required in these tests can be more abstract than of everyday use. I know I am generalising and the tests are supposed to be testing an underlying ability. Maths is essential, no arguments from me on that, but I do wonder as to the purpose of some of the q’s ? Moreover, pilots who have been flying for years also seem to struggle?

At the end of the day I suppose it doesn’t matter what anyone says, as the tests are just another hurdle to jump ! They are another filter that an airline / organisation has put in place. Just find out what kind of tests are used and study them – isn’t that what we all do before testing day ? And the reason for the original post. Nice idea, good to have the information in one place.:ok:

PG
:)

Gillespie
18th Oct 2006, 10:18
If you ask me, this sort of testing is essential. It amazes me nowadays, the standards of mental arithmetic. As I'm only in my mid 20's I come from the generation whom carry a 'plastic brain' i.e., one made by Casio. Having said that, from an early age my dad has peppered me with mental arithmetic, so I feel quite comfortable with mental calculations.

But the amount of people I've trained with, and flown with - whose mental arithmetic is sub-standard is astonishing.

Flying a jet is a numbers game - just as Pilot Pete stated. I'm nearly always calculating something in my head; rate of descent, Top of descent point, fuel burn etc. There’s nothing worse than when you’re pilot flying in the sim with someone with below par mental arithmetic – just adds to work load.

I feel that there are a few in this industry who 'slip through net'. They are in the minority, but still present nevertheless.

That's why I believe aptitude testing including maths in essential. The inability to work out fractions is a little disconcerting for such technically minded people.

Anyway, apologies for dragging this post further off topic. Back to it....

Pilot Pete
18th Oct 2006, 13:43
Most of them hadn't seen a fraction since A level maths, so not sure what you call basic maths Pete?

Anyone who thinks that the Thomsonfly maths (numerical reasoning) test is more than 'basic' maths is barking up the wrong tree. There is nothing too difficult about ANY one question in that paper. What they have done though is 'revamp' an obvious question to get you thinking a little more and to see if you can do a little 'mathematical gymnastics'. For example;

Instead of writing 'what is 4232 x 23?' they may present the question with the answer like this; '42j2 x 2j = 97jj6 , what is 'j'? Bearing in mind that it is a multichoice question and there are 5 possible answers, say 1,2,3,4,or 5 it does not take the brains of an Archbishop to work out how to get an answer. I had a discussion woth someone on these boards about that exact question about a year ago and he was trying to convince everyone that the maths was impossible and you needed calculus and to make a formula up etc etc. NO, all you have to do is substitute 'j' for one of the answers provided, do the long multiplication and see if it works! If you are REALLY clever you put in the 3 as the first attempt. If your answer is too big then you try with a smaller number (the 2 or the 1 for those struggling!) and if it is too small then you try with a larger number (the 4 or the 5!). That way you need only do a maximum of 3 long multiplication sums to isolate the correct answer. The trick is to use these time-saving methods and to be able to maintain accuracy whilst working fast.

Other examples are being able to isolate 'x' on one side of an equation (again, only needs an ability to multiply and divide to do that), work with averages, percentages, ratios, fractions (dividing fractions with fractions) etc etc. Can you think outside the box though? When I sat the test I hadn't revised dividing fractions with fractions and couldn't remember how to do it. So, get back to basics, use a simple example to work out how to do it. Example;

What's a half divided by a quarter? Or, in other words 'how many times does a quarter fit into a half?' Simple! 2. So what did I have to do to the 1/2 and the 1/4 to get 2? Invert the second fraction and multiply. That's about as difficult as it gets. You still think it is A level stuff?:rolleyes:

PP

High Wing Drifter
18th Oct 2006, 14:37
If you are REALLY clever you put in the 3 as the first attempt. If your answer is too big then you try with a smaller number (the 2 or the 1 for those struggling!) and if it is too small then you try with a larger number (the 4 or the 5!).I would go as far as saying if you using trial and error then you have selected the wrong technique - just divide 6 by 2!

One poor chap I spoke to said he was asked for the square root of 441 whilst on an ILS in a sim check. He got it right too, because it is easy if you know how.

These questions are really a test of mental organisation rather than arithmetic, as many of them don't actually expect you to do the sum, but to utilise the basic relationship between operations and numbers.

Pilot Pete
18th Oct 2006, 16:04
I would go as far as saying if you using trial and error then you have selected the wrong technique - just divide 6 by 2! Agreed, but I just made that one up on the spot, so that technique may not work for others!;)

PP

haughtney1
18th Oct 2006, 17:54
Pete, I usually agree with you on most things mate.....but IMHO most of the psychometric, maths, abstract reasoning type selection processes are merely HR related to weed out those who they don't want.

In essence HR departments present results to avoid allegations of prejudice, bias, or favourtism/nepotism etc, all part of the brave new PC world:ok:

The good old sim check, with some repeated exercises to show an ability to follow instructions and show a learning curve is a far more effective method of selection for qualified candidates.(and cheaper than paying various HR organisations for the intellectual property rights to tests and methodology)

As a method(s) for the selection of inexperienced candidates, the testing process is the latest fad and an american one at that. I don't dispute however the facts that with the sums of money involved..there needs to be some measure of ability....particularly those with no training or experience track record, is it the best method? I'm not convinced.

As far as specifics are concerned, I've experienced 4 airline aptitude tests, passed 3, bombed 1..again and again however I struggled to see the relevance to the various methodology involved.

When I raised the question with the lady interviewer ( I was offered the job..that I later turned down) she confirmed to me that it was a weeding out exercise, and had little to do with aptitude.
They used the personal interview process as the main criteria to identify those with the "percieved" suitability to fit into the company culture, and placed very little emphasis on anything other than the persons personality profile.

As for maths...your example Pete would have bamboozled me, all I know is my 3 X's table...and the application of the 1/60 rule, I've never had to use anything else in 10 years of varied flying. (I do carry 3 calculators:ok: :E )

Pilot Pete
18th Oct 2006, 19:06
Whoa, hold on there! I never said the tests were the best form of selection for pilots. All I stated was that a test of basic maths has some relevance. As does a grasp of English. Spatial orientation tests are again, of some relevance to being a pilot. The best? Maybe not, but what is? The friendly chat with the chief pilot followed by a sim check? Well, I would agree that a sim assessment is the best form of spatial orientation test for pilots, hence why most airlines include them in their selection process. Some still use the 'friendly chat' with the Chief Pilot as they trust his judgement, BUT it is quite possible for a candidate to lie their way through a straight interview and many have done in the past. The idea of running a profile before interview is to try to ascertain someone's strengths and weaknesses and then you can target specific areas with your interviewing, to either confirm or deny the strength/ weakness.

It's true it is an American invention and many businesses including airlines now use some form of psychometric testing in their selection procedures. Why? Because they see some merit in it and indeed, it filters out many to get the huge number of applicants down to a manageable number, within which your future employees reside. Does it necessarily get the BEST candidates? Maybe not, but it gets perfectly ACCEPTABLE candidates to whom jobs are offered. If it didn't then the airlines (and all the other companies using the tests) would have binned them.

My point was merely that there is nothing too difficult in these tests. They test the BASICS and if you haven't used the basics for a long time and you know you are going to sit a test as part of a pilot selection, then if you don't brush up to give yourself the best chance of passing, then that probably says enough to the employer as regards your DESIRABILITY as a potential employee. Never forget it is their train set and if you want to play with their train, then you have to pass through the filtering process. Whether it is crap or not at selecting pilot employees is a different question. Just remember that the airlines are happy with the ones who DO pass the filtering process and hence they offer them jobs. Nobody is saying that you have to agree with the testing regime.

PP

haughtney1
18th Oct 2006, 20:02
Fair point Pete........:ok:

I guess Im getting cynical in my mid 30's :uhoh: plus I missed the context of what you said.. :)

Pilot Pete
18th Oct 2006, 20:18
I guess Im getting cynical in my mid 30's Wait 'til you reach the next decade mate! I'm there in March.:bored:

hangar
19th Oct 2006, 13:27
Do Flybe do PILAPT tests as part of their initial selection process?

scroggs
19th Oct 2006, 17:33
Do a search for Flybe. You may be surprised what you discover.

Scroggs

Bendigo
24th Oct 2006, 05:46
PARC SSTR: verbal : Watson and Glazer 48 Qs 40 mins
maths : basic maths ( + ,_ mult, div) simple algebra
40 Qs , 30 mins

Thompsonfly: verbal " as above"
maths - anyone else

DHL : verbal / numerical - SHL


CTC Wings/CTC ATP : same maths test 15 Qs / 15 min all aviation
related speed / dist / time , ROC, ROD,


Other contributions are more than welcome - does anyone know if BA Connect and GB Airways use testing. You are encouraged to help your fellow wannabe pilots !!!!!!

Rj111
24th Oct 2006, 13:14
Instead of writing 'what is 4232 x 23?' they may present the question with the answer like this; '42j2 x 2j = 97jj6 , what is 'j'? Bearing in mind that it is a multichoice question and there are 5 possible answers, say 1,2,3,4,or 5 it does not take the brains of an Archbishop to work out how to get an answer. I had a discussion woth someone on these boards about that exact question about a year ago and he was trying to convince everyone that the maths was impossible and you needed calculus and to make a formula up etc etc. NO, all you have to do is substitute 'j' for one of the answers provided, do the long multiplication and see if it works! If you are REALLY clever you put in the 3 as the first attempt. If your answer is too big then you try with a smaller number (the 2 or the 1 for those struggling!) and if it is too small then you try with a larger number (the 4 or the 5!). That way you need only do a maximum of 3 long multiplication sums to isolate the correct answer. The trick is to use these time-saving methods and to be able to maintain accuracy whilst working fast.

'42j2 x 2j = 97jj6
You don't even have to do long multiplication, just look at the last digits of the three numbers. 2 * j = 6. (assuming the options are 1-5)

scameron77
24th Oct 2006, 14:12
Here is some basic maths for you all:

This is post #25, so far there have been (if you ignore the initial post):

- 7 quality replies answering the question
- 6 name calling and people explaining what they reall meant but didn't convey in such away as someone else didn't take offence, and those taking offence not winding their neck in and going off on one
- 5 Questions kinda on topic-ish
- 2 exposees into the fear of growing old
- 1 from a moderator using his trusty Ctrl-P function, a message he must post several times daily
- 1 comedic post about Ryanair
- 1 repeated answer to the 2j question
- 1 showing the ludicrous nature of pprune sometimes and totally off topic, so I apologise in advance :)

I'd be in terested to hear from High Wing Drifter what his easy method to calculate square roots of prime numbers is and if it matches mine.

Essentially they will all end with a 0,1,2,4,5,6,9, from that and knowing that 10^=100, 20^400, 30^900 you can get a rough idea

ie for 421 => I need a number that when squared = 1, that leaves 1 or 9 as options. 421 is more than 400 (which is 20^2) so 21 is the only option as 29 would be close to 900.

dartagnan
24th Oct 2006, 14:51
CAE spain: 20 questions, 20 minutes...(test online)

questions like this one : are you more generous or friendly?
are you more reserved or generous?

and so on...

Jimmy The Big Greek
24th Oct 2006, 14:52
Would be nice if someone could post any tips and tricks for solving numerical questions.

TheKabaka
24th Oct 2006, 15:09
Slightly off topic because the bottom line is as PP says

"Whether it is crap or not at selecting pilot employees is a different question. Just remember that the airlines are happy with the ones who DO pass the filtering process and hence they offer them jobs. Nobody is saying that you have to agree with the testing regime."

However would not a better way of testing a pilot candidates basic maths involve questions applying those basic skills in questions relevant to pilots, for example

Q1) given you wish to achieve a 3 degree descent where for every mile a a 300 foot decent is requiered and to slow down by 10 kts requires 1 mile.
You are at 20000 ft and 280 kts. If you wish to reach your platform height of 3000 feet at 180 kts how many track miles do you require?

Q2)you have 12000 kgs of fuel on board.and your burn is 1500 kgs an hour, your ground speed is 300 kts how much fuel will you have over your destination 250 miles away?

Surely questions such as the above would be a better guide to who is a suitable candidate, rather than the current trend of contracting in an outside HR department.

Rj111
24th Oct 2006, 15:19
What problems are you think of? Algebra?

There's few techniques that can be taught, you have to discover your own through practise. But there are plenty of resources on the internet, even just wikipedia. And practise your times tables (beyond 10*10), you get to know how the numbers work and you can see patterns. It'll speed up the numerical part of the process, so you can spend more time finding the problem.

Take no prisoners if you want to achieve you ambitions lad!

Q2)you have 12000 kgs of fuel on board.and your burn is 1500 kgs an hour, your ground speed is 300 kts how much fuel will you have over your destination 250 miles away?

Surely questions such as the above would be a better guide to who is a suitable candidate, rather than the current trend of contracting in an outside HR department.

In a real flight situation you'd be burning less fuel when your aircraft is 10t lighter though.

It's irrelevent what the context is really. You can either do the maths or you can't. Dressing it up in a piloting environment doesn't change the necessary calculations. They want to gauge your pure maths ability in that particular test. Adding flight scenarios may even diminish the intergity of the results, as all these calculations should be familier and routine for a pilot.

Rj111

TheKabaka
24th Oct 2006, 15:50
"It's irrelevent what the context is really. You can either do the maths or you can't. Dressing it up in a piloting environment doesn't change the necessary calculations. They want to gauge your pure maths ability in that particular test. "

Exactly that is my whole point!

"Adding flight scenarios may even diminish the intergity of the results, as all these calculations should be familier and routine for a pilot."

What role are they hiring you for? If you are good at this type of calculation that should have a positive advantage not only for the tests but also for when they hire you and you are on line!

(Sorry i dont know how to do quotes)

scameron77
24th Oct 2006, 16:28
The industry has picked a method of selection, they feel that it weeds out the weak candidates from the strong ones. There is a multitude of evidence of where people who sailed through the tests didn't have the skill or apitude to fly.

Its methods and merits can be debated until the cows come home however, its the one that is used and if we want to aspire to work in this industry, its a benchmark by and large we all will have to pass at some point.

I just don't see the benefits for us endlessly picking over the pro's and con's of the system, its the system we must use, plain and simple.

Lets live with it in the same vein that we have to live with paying for everything up to a MCC ourselves, how the CAA rip us off and despite everything it beats commuting to work in an office selling paperclips.

Rj111
24th Oct 2006, 16:38
What role are they hiring you for? If you are good at this type of calculation that should have a positive advantage not only for the tests but also for when they hire you and you are on line!

I can see where you're coming from, but if you're good at maths and problem solving this should be no sweat anyway. Whereas one could just master the said questions leaving little scope for assessing pure natural ability. Most of the time a pilot's job is easy - rarely is he fully utilised. He will though at many times in his career when he comes across multiple and adverse conditions, which aren't necessarily easy to plan and prepare for. The point in interviews and tests ect is to identify the top applicants who will perform the best when the going gets tough. Questions outside the normal piloting "envelope" may help idenetify this.

Rj111

Btw, to quote, simply click the "Quote" button in the bottom right hand corner of the post you wish to quote. Then delete the bits out you don't want.

Alternatively you can press the http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/editor/quote.gifbutton on the top menu. Once you're composing your reply.

roxi
25th Oct 2006, 13:28
I know the Parc testing format is used on a number of testing days. It would be good of them to issue a specimen paper so you can get the flavour of what knowledge is required.

TheKabaka
25th Oct 2006, 14:10
Rj111

Fair enough, having passed two interviews with generic maths questions i still fail to see thier benefit other than time/accuracy pressure.

The most important thing is preparation and seeing evidence of this is probably what the employers are after.

Thanks for the quoting tips- easy when you know how

Rj111
25th Oct 2006, 17:38
Well at least you passed two. And as scameron77 points out they're here to stay so may as well get on with them.

I have a CTC apptitude and maths test soon. Is there anything i need to know beyond long division and multiplication for the maths? And any vocabulary i need to know beyond FLXXX?

Marloo
30th Oct 2006, 03:55
Not exactly an overwhelming response but thanks for the four or so who contributed relevant information - maybe it just is not the most exciting topic but probably the more likely explanation is that people do not want to assist potential competitors.

My $64,000 question is what are KLM , Air France and other European majors(ie: SAS) using for their various cadetship selection programs ??

scroggs
30th Oct 2006, 08:35
Why don't you ask them? I'm sure they'll give you the basic details.

One of the reaons this thread is going nowhere is that the information is already here - every airline-specific thread on this and the T&E forums has the information you're looking for over and over and over again and, surprise surprise, it's just about identical for every airline.

Scroggs

beamer
30th Oct 2006, 20:43
For God's sake. what do you need maths for in todays aircraft ? Simple answer, you don't need anything other than basic numeracy and the ability to use a calculator for addition and subtraction. All this talk about algebra and fractions is just nonsense - you do not need it unless you have ideas about becoming a test-pilot which is a different game completely.

novicef
1st Nov 2006, 08:51
Are there any recommended texts one could buy to get up to speed?

DownloadDog
1st Nov 2006, 09:47
For sharpening your maths skills I would suggest

http://www.thatquiz.com/

Use the Integers/Arimethic button and select a hard level, helped me with BA selection.

Furthermore, I can recommend the Pilot Assessment Preparation & Aptitude Tests from ffrwww.cockpitweb.com (http://www.cockpitweb.com)
I used this programme in prep for BA and it helped enormously, by practicing every night I improved my scores no end - Well worth its price.

mukalaaa
12th May 2007, 15:29
Good afternoon All,

I am planning to be a pilot (Rotor-Wing)

the compnay that i work in has a program which they call ( rotor-wing pilot program). they need you to meet the requirments and then they will send you to North Dakota Unv. for study and training

these are the requirments if you want to be a pilot:
1- finish high school
2- TOEFL score 525 or higher
3- Pass physical exam
4- Pass Psychiatric Aptitude Test in Lufthansa airlines in Germany

my question here is about item #4 (Psychiatric Aptitude Test )
what is this test? they said that they will send me there for 2 days to take this test... but i don't know how to prepare myself for it... i have no idea about it

please help me

dartagnan
13th May 2007, 18:22
nothing to prepare.
basically they look at your motivation, reflex, mental capacity under high stress(stay calm, that's what they want see).
but at the end it doesn't mean anything. They all think their tests are the best in the world...
as long you don't have to pay, go for it!

Ronaldsway Radar
13th May 2007, 23:31
Don't prepare for it, is what I've been told. They want to get an accurate and true assessment of you as you are.

If you see what I mean??

RR

stator vane
14th May 2007, 07:21
those who pass are okay.

those of us who don't-are very bad people!!! don't deserve to fly airplanes!!!!

blueskiesup
16th May 2007, 20:38
I've done the search, but haven't found any web addresses to psychometric test sites.Can anyone shed any light on any possible sites for blowing your mind with crazy I.Q. tests.

Andi
17th May 2007, 08:58
hi BSU,

found this one lately..there is a link for english and french.hope it helps

http://www.sphair.ch/pilot/de/explore/arithmetic.html?_sfx=0

happy learning!;)

greets Andi

VirginSkid
17th May 2007, 16:22
Hi

I am currently using Aviac.com (http://www.aviac.com) tests:

It has numerical, Verbal, diagrammatical and Spatial. I find them value for money. I asked for a demo before I bought 90 days use...

I asked for a pychoetric test and was e-mailed a hard copy Pychometric test to practiceand review..for free!....

But there are also others you can use....

ostendo mihi via
18th May 2007, 16:35
I would be wary of the above poster guys, smells of spam to me!
I eagerly wait to be corrected however.