Heathrow security

[radeng]

Is it still taking literally hours to get through LHR T4 security? I went out on Feb 13: arrived at T4 at 1005, checked in at First Class (Gold cards are useful) and then spent until 1225 getting through security. The queue was
enormous stretching out of the building into the marquee, and even out of that. Security was no different to usual though. A colleague going through T1 that day had just as long a wait.

Strange thing is that there doesn't seem to have been anything in the newspapers about it. It seems BAA are blaming the DfT, but in fact, if BAA were anything like efficient, they'd have enough security people to keep the queues more manageable. They can do it at ORD, PHX and so on!

I ask becasue I've got a flight on the 27th at 1745 from T4: I'm currently aiming to get there by 1315 in the hope this will be long enough......

[BOFH]

Doesn't sound like much fun, Radeng.

I went through T1 last week - expecting the worst, I arrived with three hours' leeway, took the humble Biz Class check-in :ouch: but inadvertently went through the green line for security. It took fifteen minutes. Must've been my lucky day. Still fifteen minutes wasted, though.

Better luck this time!

BOFH

[Eddy]

The BAA recently introduced the need for laptops to be removed from bags prior to security. Very much a la TSA. Lots of people are still getting to grips with this new requirement and yes, queues are much longer as a result. At Terminal 1 recently, I've noticed all of the machines open and operating with lots of staff on hand but people are showing up at the machines without laptops at the ready.

If each person take a minute to remove their laptop, stow it in a tray and then replace the bag on the belt, that's a lot of extra time being taken.

I think things will ease off again when people realise this is a requirement and are prepared in advance.

[manintheback]

T4 still bad 10 days ago, dunno after that.

But my two pennies worth
a) I was nice and early, watching a steady stream of passengers being jumped in front of us by the queue combers because they were late, eventually resulting in myself having to be queue jumped an hour later. Total and utter farce.....

b) Why doesnt one person go up the queues and TELL people to get ready

c) even if (b) were to occur there aint enought security points for the number of pax at T4.

[radeng]

At T4, the queue combers were in the marquee, not when you got inside. Which was where they were needed........

BAA must stand for 'B******r All Aviators!' (or would be aviators)

Still, once they recognise that the shops aren't doing very well and the shops pull out, doubtless they'll bitch at DfT. DfT must stand for something like 'Department for Totalitarianism'.

It's enough to make you go by Eurostar.or is that what they are intending?

[radeng]

I forgot to mention.........
Take your lap top out of your bag before you get to security. So how many hands do people have? When I take the computer with me (which I hate doing but often have to), I then have to carry a computer, the carry bag, my walking stick, take my overcoat and jacket off and carry them.......... Is there a table available (as they do in the US) so you can start getting all your stuff into the plastic trays when you're about 5 people from the machine? Of course not!
Because BAA and Dft are a load of useless idiots! And they have no way of detecting items such as ceramic knives anyway. Regardless of political correctness, they need to start using profiling.
BTW, what's the situation for the Scotsman forced to undo his belt, have his kilt fall to the ground and be stood there, indecently (depending upon one's point of view and the Scot in question) exposing himself?

[katana.flyer]

They want the bare laptop to go through the scanner? Hopefully there is a tray on offer to protect the laptop?

Checking the BAA website they say "screened seperately". Hopefully this does not involve plunging a bare £1500 laptop into thier scanner.

[striparella]

^ I don't think the whole tkaing your laptop out the bag is the REAL reason - apparently BAA were/are on a go-slow due to the job losses coming soon and the possible take over. I've not seen the huge queues for a few days now - i think the whole thing has blown over.

The queues were at thier worst just when it was announce about the job losses in Skyport....a member of BAA actually told me they were on a go slow!

[katana.flyer]

That's good if it is dying down. I'm about to launch on a hectic month of travel :sad: in which LHR T3 and 4 Feature frequently. I'll report how it goes.

[ptr120]

Can anyone explain why we need to remove our laptops from bags and have them scanned seperately? This has been normal procedure in German airports for as long as I've been flying through those airports, but I've never understood it there either!

[slim_slag]

Heathrow just sucks. The people in charge have clearly forgotten it's supposed to be an airport.

[Eddy]

apparently BAA were/are on a go-slow due to the job losses coming soon

Indeed they were and you're absolutely right that this could be contributing quite majorly to the delays. Infact, they have been on go-slow at the airside vehicle entry points for a while now, too.

Each time I report for duty and go on the bus to the aircraft side, I always find myself and the crew sitting for close to 15-20 minutes waiting to get through the checkpoint - something that used to take no longer than 5 minutes.

Good thinking!

[slim_slag]

I don't see them working any slower. The problem, just from watching the mess, is people now have to unload their laptop and put it in a separate tray. This slows things down for several reasons

1) There is nowhere to easily unload your laptop. People are doing it shuffling along, or just do it right in front of the x-ray machine and that takes time and holds up the traffic flow.
2) They now have another item of luggage to put through the x-ray machine and look at, and then pack at the other end. An empty bag and a laptop obviously take longer to put through than a single bag containing a laptop. There is nowhere to put your luggage back in one piece (a shop is in the way), so you do it on the security thing at the end of the xray machine and that holds things up.

Somebody needs to go to America and see how to do it properly. There are clearly insufficient security resources and space allocated to security at LHR to do the job efficiently. Somebody should tell BAA that if we are queuing up for security clearance it means we cannot shop, maybe that would get somebody to do something.

What happens when a rule comes in that we have to take our shoes off? The place is going to come to a halt, they just don't seem to think about things proactively.

[katana.flyer]

Is it better at other UK airports? I only ever see LHR, but I could use Manchester if it was less hassle.

[yggorf]

Is it better at other UK airports? I only ever see LHR, but I could use Manchester if it was less hassle.
Had a very good experience at Stansted on a busy sunday afternoon, where security was quick, thorough, efficient and extremely friendly. Guess what? They don't seem to think that all pax are potential terrorists and they actually give you the impression that they're happy to see you...

[Snoopy]

Can anyone explain why we need to remove our laptops from bags and have them scanned seperately? This has been normal procedure in German airports for as long as I've been flying through those airports, but I've never understood it there either!

In Japan it gets better. If you are flying domestically you have to remove the laptop before screening, but if you are flying internationally it is not required. Go figure!!

[jerrystinger]

After a recent arrival at Terminal 3 passport control with the European channel being miles long, I asked an Immigration Officer why they no longer waved Brits through.
Security is not the only area to increasily test your patience as the Home Office has informed its Immigration officers to swipe all European passports because of increased Europe wide security, people trafficking etc, with phase two seeing CCTV imaging as passengers disembark from aircraft and phase three involving European nationals being fingerprinted and photographed in Immigration halls. Me thinks we are now the US!

1984(Big brother) is a reality!

[Bangkokeasy]

Aaaaarggh!! Wretched LHR again.

I pass through LHR on average twice a year on home leaves and business trips and can concur that things are getting worse (from an already low base). I think this is just another example of where the management of LHR is woefully lacking in its provision of resources for the traffic it handles.

In this case, there are three points to consider:

1) There are simply not enough scanning teams/scanners.
In most Asian airports, there is normally about one team/scanner for every 4 gates, which means it is unusual for more than one planeload of SLF to be put through one scanner and security team at a time. In Singapore, KL and Jakarta, there is one scanner per gate and the teams are put there when there is a departure from that gate, with the same net effect as above. How many gates are served by each team/scanner in LHR???

2) In LHR, the whole departure lounge is a “sterile” area, which I believe is the same as the USA. In Asia (except Hong Kong and Japan), it is usually only the gate holding area that is “sterile”. Personally, I don’t agree with this “whole departure lounge” sterile approach. For one thing, it leads to people having to eat their lunches with bendy plastic knives and forks. For another, I can’t believe that a containment area that big can be sealed effectively enough. And of course, you inevitably have to pass through a bottle neck to get to the departure area (my apologies if I have missed a past pprune thread about this?)

3) It has been compulsory to remove laptops from bags in Australia and New Zealand for at least two years. In those locations, the system works extremely well. I have passed through security in Auckland, Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane in the last year and have not been delayed by more than a couple of minutes at security. It has been professional, thorough, polite and above all, QUICK. LHR need look no further than down under for an example of how to do this.

As for LHR in general, I can only do what I did in January, as I crawled in my car for an hour in a queue to get though one of those stupid road tunnels - shout at the top of my lungs in frustration “GET YOUR &*%$# ACT TOGETHER!”

[striparella]

^ Sounds like you've not been to LHR for a while!

I was eating airside yesterday with my metal cutlery. It's been that way for ages!

I think having airside areas is better than just having the gates "sterile" as you call them.

It's hard enough getting people to go through departures as it as with all the 50 family and friends they bring along. Imagine that at a gate when you're trying to board? Ridiculous.

As much as i joke about the BAA, i find their security very effective to the point where they are sometimes a bit anal - but it makes me feel safer!

[katana.flyer]

I think the gate method wins. All the most efficient airports I can think of all use scanners at the gate. No non passengers can get though immigration / departure control so you don't get friends and family milling around. Personally if I'm going to be held up be security I'd prefer it to be in sight of the gate - the flight is unlikely to bugger off without you if you are standing in a line with all the other passengers... Much more controlled and civilised.

[Final 3 Greens]

My current fave transfer point, PRG, has security at the gate and it works very well indeed.

LHR is a dogs dinner, in fairness a lot of the infrastructure does come from another era, but its a sh*te place to connect through.

[Bangkokeasy]

As a matter of interest, does anyone have any statistics as to how many pax miss flights as a result of delays in processing them through the airport and what proportion of flights is delayed as a result? It must be a nightmare for an airline to be say, a dozen SLF short at the gate and not knowing where to look to find them.

Take the point about the cutlery, striperalla, (haven't eaten there for a while :yuk: ) but this fact can't have been communicated to all the airlines who still use the bendy stuff when coming into LHR. Other airports have either relaxed this requirement for airlines, or never implemented it in the first place (like Singapore).

As for the gate vs centralised security, I would suggest that you probably haven't travelled through an airport that uses the "gate" method lately either - touche!

[candoo]

Travelled out of T1 on Wednesday, queues were a nightmare but in fairness only took 3/4 of an hour to get through security. Having read this thread before I left I was expecting the worst and thus was mentally prepared so amused myself by "people watching". Problem was as the queue extended in a snake out downtowards BMI check in desks BA passengers were leapfrogging and gaining a good 10 minutes or so. We Brits hate Q jumpers but lack the ability to complain, some of the comments were priceless but all muttered under the breath. Also lots of "I'll never fly out of here again" the predictable "this is a joke". All made the extra time pass very quickly for me.
To add some more it was an interesting trip as BA utilised a 757 for the flight to DUS with all of 58 passengers! (suspect return was booked out). Travelled back today and we landed a little late but it still took me more time from disembarking to driving out of Parking Express than it did check in and fly back from DUS - baggage took forever!
Living in N London I had got used to flying Luton-Dortmund and is definately my preferred route - nowt to do with the carrier but the whole LHR experience, including of course the M25!

[katana.flyer]

Only 3/4 hour? That's outrageous. In certain organised airports, I've been through and onboard in that time. I wonder what the cost in lost productivity is in all this hanging around?

[radeng]

It seems that BAA don't care, and for some reason, BA and the the other airlines aren't making a big public fuss. If they would only moan publicly.... I'll be using LHR again in a couple of weeks, so I'll see how bad it is. If it's as bad as last time, I'll try writing to my MP - he might be persuaded to ask a PQ of the Minister for Transport, which might stir things up a bit. Next Monday, I'm purposely avoiding LHR by going from Bristol......

[katana.flyer]

I've often wondered where the airlines were in all this. I did once write to SIA and point out that T3 was letting them down. I got a response back to the effect that they were contstrained by the space and facilities available. That was about five years ago and it seems very much worse now.

[10secondsurvey]

In the UK/Europe, policy varies with laptops. sometimes in, sometimes out. On some occasions I get it out, only to be told not to. I recently asked, at security, and was told, it depends how thick the case is that the laptop is in. That is, if it contains many other items on top of the laptop, then it may need to come out.

As regards security at any airport, what they need is more staff.

I have said it before, if everyone at LHR was 'ready' with laptop out and coat in hand, all that would happen is staffing numbers would be cut. The queue would till remain.

It's about maximising profits see...

[katana.flyer]

And as long as the expectations of the average user are as low as they are in the UK the airports will get away with it. The users must rise up, make noise and say no before this will get any better.

[purr777]

candoo - just for your info an airline doesn't base its aircraft types solely on load factors! LHR is particularly complex and can sometimes simply be based on using whichever aircraft is available for the slot at that time. Eg a 767 arriving from LIS may be the next a/c immediately available in the right place for a MAD with only 55 passengers booked on it.

Obviously airlines try to operate types suitable for expected loads, but that is not feasible 100% of the time. Another factor is cargo load. BA's Tokyo services are hardly ever 100% full to warrant 2 daily 747-400s on the route, BUT the cargo revenue far outweighs an aircraft full of economy passengers! It sometimes means there is a heavy weight restriction on the route so to the passengers it seems as if the flight is empty, but little do they know the hold is full of valuable, high paying cargo! Food for thought.

[snooky]

I think that the basic problem is that BAA know that you're pretty well stuck with them, so no matter how bad Heathrow is, by avoiding it you'll only end up at one of their other shambles.
Maybe something should be done to break uo their position of virtual monopoly.
What annoys most is seeing only a few of the potential lines manned, with huge queues. More profit for BAA, more misery for their poor victims.
I too don't understand why the airlines don't object strongly, it's ridiculous that the airport passage often is longer than the flight.

[Wodrick]

Only just read this thread however back to Laptops, three weeks ago took my laptop through MAN T1 security, it remained in it's case and was not questioned.
Same at AGP last week for the return, although had to remove essential belt there !
My best trip ever through as a SLF, only took about 15 mins, can take longer as staff !

[PAXboy]

SnookyMaybe something should be done to break up their position of virtual monopoly. There is nothing 'virtual' about it - it IS a monopoly of the three major London airports. The quantity of traffic of LTN + LCY is insignificant by comparions.

The present UK govt is never going to tackle it. One can only hope that something like this on the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4799160.stm) today may start things moving.

But I doubt it. BAA is a cash cow and other operators have learnt their tricks and are repeating them.

[Jordan D]

Just as an aside thru T1 Domestics yesterday, and noted that some people's laptops weren't being screened separately. Did however note the increase in signs and the space given to pax to unload their coats/laptops/etc before the scanner.

Jordan

[TightSlot]

Last week, positioning on Air Canada @ LHR T3, two staff were working the queue before security, asking about laptops, and then handing out a clear plastic bag for the laptop to be placed in, which I did. I have to say that I was rather impressed.

Laptop removal now seems to be a standard at most airports through which I position: I remove mine now as a matter of course.

[Carry0nLuggage]

I can't see how slowing down security helps BAA profits, surely the opposite is true. Pax have a fixed time between check in opening and boarding the flight so the more time spent in the queue, the less time spent in the airside shops and bars which do contribute to BAA income. Seems like an own goal to me.

[snooky]

That's a very good point.
Maybe if someone from BAA sees this they'll suggest paying to keep the security machines operational so that their core business of providing shopping facilities is maximised. :hmm:

[striparella]

As for the gate vs centralised security, I would suggest that you probably haven't travelled through an airport that uses the "gate" method lately either - touche!

Lol no but i work at LHR and have never, EVER had a passenger been late due to getting through security. Shopping? Yes. Fallen asleep at on the chairs? Yes. Security? No.

I simply wouldn't want the BAA at my gate interferring with everything. They do enough of that as it is!!

[manintheback]

T3 yesterday rush hour. Approx 10 minutes to get through the non fast track.

[AGPwallah]

Don't worry guys - read on BBC text business news that the Spanish (Grupo Ferrovial) have put in a bid for BAA. That should sort things out!!!!

[SLF3]

It is not just security screening. In T4 at passport control you now you have to stand behind the line until you are called forward. They have just introduced a single queue, which means the hold point is even further from the desk. So the staff (same number as before) spend roughly half a shift looking at their nails waiting for people to walk up to them.

It is a measure of how low our expectations are that we tolerate Heathrow.

[howflytrg]

How and why do staff not have airside passes?

Probably coz it takes over a f:mad: year for Disclosure Scotland to bother dealing with your basic disclosure application, and they need renuing every 4 (i think) years. I had to wait a whole year for mine! Waste of space as a result but totaly out of my, and my company's hands.
But c'est la vie, we are all still alive so i can't complain. :rolleyes:

[ShamRoc]

^....a member of BAA actually told me they were on a go slow!
How would we know they were on a "go slow"? If they went any slower they would stop! In my view the security staff at LHR are more interested in talking amongst themselves than ensuring efficient passage of travellers through the system. Have you seen the number of staff that are gathered at "Checkpoint Charlie" to gates 23 and beyond at LHR T1 International departures? I understand this is supposed to be a "random" check but in my experience unless the queue extends back otside the double doors no concession is made to "wave through". I have been told that airline gate staff have come to that queue looking for passengers.
In my view there is no shortage of staff just poor deployment, supervision and management. Next time you pass through check the number of clip board holders.

[ATCO1987]

Im a security agent at Bristol. I do understand laptops coming out, as an Xray screener its very difficult to clearly screen laptops when there are dozens of other wires, electrical devices, etc covering them. I wish we'd get laptops out! But we dont.

As for the Japan thing, majorly pointless in my opinion, either get them out or dont.

Metal cutlery in the restricted zone? Deary me, that cant be good.

As for ceramic knives...if carried on the person, there isnt a way of detecting them automatically, no. But if they look suspicious and havent set off the AMD (archway metal detector) then they can always be selected for a random search. Of course a certain ratio of random searches should always be carried out anyway. Detecting ceramic knives is possible when screening by xray of course.

Expired RZ Passes? No one enters the RZ at Bristol with an expired pass. You'd think Heathrow would be tighter than us though wouldnt you?

We have no immigration etc for departing passengers though, but we still have huge queues and it doesnt help, like others have said, when passengers havent got their coats off before they get to the search comb. All passengers should remove coats, and have keys, mobile phones and any other electrical devices in their pockets (NOT COINS) ready to throw into the tray. But unfortunately most passengers check their brains in with their hold luggage. No hope.

[jerrystinger]

SLF3 - I don't mind waiting at passport control now as it's long over due that everyone is checked.... I take it you do as you're told and wait patiently in a US passport control line? Thought so :) Did you not know we mirror the US? Whatever they do, we introduce gradually here.... Smile the CCTV is watching you in the line.

[radeng]

ATCO 187,

the problem at Bristol is compounded because there aren't enough tables for you to have got your coat off, taken your computer out of its bag, put you money etc in something to hold it before you get to the machine - and if, as I unfortunately do, you walk with a stick, you don't end up with enough hands to hold everything.

It would make things a lot faster if the US example was followed with about 10 feet of table leading up to the machine. This would give people a chance to get ready befroe they get there. Incidentally, I didn't figure out why, as a BA Club class passenger, I didn't get fast track there the other week. Still, it doesn't matter because as there's no more Club Class on BA from BRS, I'll not be flying from there anymore.

[Skyflier]

45 minutes to get through T2 security on Monday morning - totally unacceptable. If BAA managers can't do better than that they should seek a future elsewhere. Immigration at T2 on Friday 30+ minutes, again, totally unacceptable. If BAA were not a monopoly and immigration not a government service heads would role. Perhaps it's time the head of the current government's head rolled as he seems to be the person who believes in the terrorism threat but doesn't offer evidence or explanation for his beliefs. :*

BAA management perhaps also ought to consider the long term impact of this chaos on their business - Air NZ are well aware of how their transit passengers now view LAX and the business they lose - keep following the US boys - straight down the pan .

[Bangkokeasy]

[/quote]It is a measure of how low our expectations are that we tolerate Heathrow.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more, SLF3. I could name about 10 airports around the world where the security and immigration procedures work sooo much better than Heathrow with a similar throughput of SLF per terminal. What these airports share in common, is that they exist in countries where the government and people take some pride in welcoming visitors to the country, so they make sure the airport, being the visitor's first experience of the country, gives a good impression. Heathrow is nothing short of a national disgrace. As a Brit, I am embarassed by it. Arriving in Heathrow from abroad with foreign visitors, I have found myself having to apologise for the state of the place, almost before the wheels have stopped turning. Have we no self respect?

[miche2]

"countries where the government and people take some pride in welcoming visitors to the country, so they make sure the airport, being the visitor's first experience of the country, gives a good impression"

.....Never felt welcome in the States! STAND BEHIND THE LINE!!

The problem with us Brits is that we moan if passports aren't checked and we moan when they are checked. I know people who work for our immigration and they are catching lots of Brit people traffickers now all passports are checked. Naughty.

[Gouabafla]

Well, looks as if the queues at terminal two will get shorter in a couple of years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4849758.stm

[bear11]

Lol no but i work at LHR and have never, EVER had a passenger been late due to getting through security. Shopping? Yes. Fallen asleep at on the chairs? Yes. Security? No.
I simply wouldn't want the BAA at my gate interferring with everything. They do enough of that as it is!!

The place is a big enough kip without LHR workers making comments like this. You, presumably, are trying to justify entry into one terminal for one flight, rather than transferring between terminals? Even if it's into one terminal, I can guarantee you, despite you not wanting to acknowledge reality, that more than a few people have missed their flights since the latest farce which is allegedly over laptops. Both of us know it has more to do with a go slow than having to take your laptop out of your bag.

That's bad enough - I have lost count of the number of people I have met over the years who have missed flights transferring from one terminal to another due mainly to security at the famous flight transfer centre, despite having the "recommended" 2 hours between flights - 2 hours!! And if you're late for your flight through no fault of your own - you're absoloutely on your own, son. This DOES NOT happen in many other airports that I've been though, as in places like Dubai, Schipol, etc, there are staff waiting for you to bring you though if you're tight.

ShamRoc has it right. And just to cap off the normal badly managed mess, we have BAA goslows and will have the annual BA strike shortly. I have voted with my feet for years and avoided LHR like the plague whenever feasible - why would anyone in their right mind use the place if they can transfer through Manchester, Birmingham, or Schipol?

[striparella]

The place is a big enough kip without LHR workers making comments like this. You, presumably, are trying to justify entry into one terminal for one flight, rather than transferring between terminals? Even if it's into one terminal, I can guarantee you, despite you not wanting to acknowledge reality, that more than a few people have missed their flights since the latest farce which is allegedly over laptops. Both of us know it has more to do with a go slow than having to take your laptop out of your bag.
That's bad enough - I have lost count of the number of people I have met over the years who have missed flights transferring from one terminal to another due mainly to security at the famous flight transfer centre, despite having the "recommended" 2 hours between flights - 2 hours!! And if you're late for your flight through no fault of your own - you're absoloutely on your own, son. This DOES NOT happen in many other airports that I've been though, as in places like Dubai, Schipol, etc, there are staff waiting for you to bring you though if you're tight.
ShamRoc has it right. And just to cap off the normal badly managed mess, we have BAA goslows and will have the annual BA strike shortly. I have voted with my feet for years and avoided LHR like the plague whenever feasible - why would anyone in their right mind use the place if they can transfer through Manchester, Birmingham, or Schipol?


Lol er no....so let me bring you down form your high horse....i was referring to posts about having security in front of gates instead of a landside/airside divide.....NOTHING to do with flight conx....

[oncemorealoft]

I travelled through BAA run LGW last Tuesday. There was no queue at security; i didn't need to take my lap top out and I was through the whole process in under 5 mins.

That the situation at LHR is allowed to continue is farcical.

It must be costing BA in particular a fortune in terms of both cost and reputation and you can bet that BAA won't be footing the bill!

[manintheback]

IThat the situation at LHR is allowed to continue is farcical. It must be costing BA in particular a fortune in terms of both cost and reputation and you can bet that BAA won't be footing the bill!

Indeed I and friends have just booked with Eeezy from LGW to Geneva. LHR far more conveniant but didnt want to get to LHR, 4 hours before the flight took off.....

[SP0]

I too have been increasingly frustrated by the queuing at LHR T4. It must make no economic sense for BAA, as each minute passengers spend in the queue is a minute they are not spending in BAA's retailers' shops ... not to mention a significantly decreased level of enthusiasm for the whole experience.

Of course, more scanners / more staff would help. But I think there are very small process changes which would really speed up the whole process ... but I think BAA is blind to them.

Here's what I think is a key root cause:

There used to be long (3-5m) roller tables before each scanner. Passengers would approach the tables in parallel and arrange their bags, remove metal from pockets etc, while they were queuing to use the machine.

A year or so ago BAA took out the tables, providing space for only one person at a time to put their bags on the table before the scanner. Each person gets to the head of the queue then starts removing all their stuff. As a result, there is a lengthy queue - far worse with the new rule about laptops - and there is clearly visible "dead time" for the scanner operator and the search teams.

I asked them about this change and they said it was because they need continual visibility of which passenger owns which bag.

I think they should restore the table and use cameras to capture who owns which bag.

Second root cause:

They have a rule that only male staff can wave a wand over male passengers, and female/female. As a result, when one male passenger is stopped for screening at the arch, all other male passengers are held in the queue. Result: long queue, with idle female search staff.

Instead, male passengers should continue to pass through the arch under supervision of the female staff member. If someone bleeps, they can be put back through the arch into a holding position until the male searcher is available again. If they don't bleep, they can just go through.

Third root cause:

Some passengers (mainly Americans) are paranoid about setting off the bleep, so they take EVERYTHING out of their pockets ... 1p coins, paperclips, watch, belt ... quite unnecessarily in most cases. This creates a further 30sec delay which causes queues to build up.


A couple of simple changes which might take 30% off the queue length!

[HandyAndy]

Folks

T4 last evening. Checked in for LHR-GRU and used the fast-track. Waited in the queue for about 10 minutes or so, laptop out of bag and into a tray. Total was about 15 minutes.

I must add however that the departures are before checking in was horrendous. I gave up getting from one end to the other and went down to the arrivals level and walked the length there. Went back up at the other end. It was really chaotic - there's just no room there. I was trying to work out in my mind why it was so crowded but I think it is just that the building wasn't designed to cater to so many people. I overheard a staff member saying "just wait until T5 is operational, it's huge". I hope he's right.

[Final 3 Greens]

Used T4 last night and it was farcical.

People having to queue in a party tent, because there isn't enough room in the terminal.

The UK is a sick joke and that is why I emigrated recently.

[manintheback]

And finally Bloody Awful Airports have a message on their website claiming

a) too many people departing early on holiday for Easter (odd that I was caught in February in all this, now that really was an early Easter.)

b) Passengers now carrying far more hand luggage (strangely the check-in guys n gals seem rather strict about liberating it all into the hold before you get near Security to comply with the airlines own policies).

Its not too often you get to see the end result of continual attempts to cut costs, but occasionally it all goes spectacularly pear shaped as we are seeing

Anyway keep up the good work BAA, I wont be coming to T4 any time soon. Wonder what the store sales figures are like at the moment seeing as few people have time to shop anymore?.

[SXB]

I avoid LHR like the plague, I will just not spend two hours in a queue waiting to go through security. At the end of the day it's often BA who are losing out as a result of actions like mine. Example; next week I'm going to Baku, my nearest major airports are SXB and FRA and my choices are FRA-LHR-BAK or SXB-VIE-BAK, the first is a BA flight and its cheaper but I'll take the Austrian Airlines from SXB such is my aversion to LHR.

That said these queues are the sole responsibility of BAA, the excuses like "we don't have enough staff" or "there isn't enough space to install more security lanes" won't wash, if you don't have enough staff employ more, if you can't find enough staff then pay them more (this being the real issue I suspect) if you don't have enough space for more security lanes then start knocking down WHSmith and Costa Coffee so you can fit more in

I don't know of such queues at any other airports on mainland europe, FRA is my usual point of departure and it's a huge airport and I never spend more than a few minutes waiting to go through security and we've been taking laptops out of bags for years.

At the end of the day nearly all of the problems at Heathrow connected to security, buildings etc etc are down to the fact that the place is very poorly managed. BAA are only interested making $$$, LHR is a cash cow and BAA is milking it for as much as they can get. Until people start voting with their feet it won't change.

[radeng]

Mike Jenvey quoted:
>The impact of the changes was very difficult to estimate (despite having a competent team of process simulators and planners). <
If they were a competent team, they would have figured this out by looking at places like Chicago. Therefore, ipso facto, they aren't competent, and the statement is a downright lie.
They should have been aware more than 7 weeks ago what they needed to do, so the sooner they sack the HAL director, the better. Possibly a public shooting 'pour encourager les autres' might help!

[FormerFlyer]

Am now dreading my DOH trip this Friday morning :eek:

Just hope the place is a damn site quieter at dawn's crack. Anyone know whereabouts the BA Fast Bag Drop desk is in T4 - I can't for the life of me remember from last time :confused:

If I got some spare time will register for the IRIS immigration thingy on the way out, hopefully to speed my re-entry - anyone else done it yet?

cheers ;)
FF

[SP0]

If I got some spare time will register for the IRIS immigration thingy on the way out, hopefully to speed my re-entry - anyone else done it yet?


Yes, I signed up for it a while ago after several abortive trips to register (sometimes they have staffing problems because the customs/immigration people get pulled away for other operational work).

It works quite well - especially on those annoying days when you land at T4 and find a huge queue. Looking into the camera is fiddly and is not quite as quick as the Privium service at Schiphol (or the sadly now defunct InsPass service in JFK), but it does work and is clearly a valuable initiative.

I don't know whether when the machine is broken you are sent to the head of the queue (as in Schiphol) - haven't had to test that yet.

[FormerFlyer]

Interesting info there thanks - hopefully will have enough time tomorrow morning before having to be bussed to some stand in the middle of nowhere :E

Is it easy enough to find the pod thingy on return to LHR? I think they should combine it with some laser eye surgery at the same time- could help pay for itself quickly ;)

cheers ;)
FF

[purr777]

Formerflyer - for your info, Immigration select who they want, rather than you automatically getting to use the new scheme. If you do not fulfil certain criteria, they will not enrol you straight away.

[Globaliser]

The Terminal 2 IRIS enrolment office is open until 2100. It's easy to get to from T1 as well if you happen to be there, because you can just walk through the airside corridor that leads from the FCC to T2 departures, and back again.

Enrolment only takes about 5 minutes - at least for a British citizen. If you are one, I don't think that there are any further criteria to be met - just turn up and sign up.

The IRIS machine at T1 worked well for me when I returned to LHR from the trip on which I'd registered. It didn't matter very much as it was an 0500 arrival, but I'd made the effort so I was definitely going to use it.

Coincidentally, when I'd arrived in HKG, it was the first time I'd ever seen their ID card thumbprint-reading machines, so I was automatically admitted there as well. Between these machines and the self-service check-in machines, I'll soon only be seeing humans at the security checkpoints.

[radeng]

Glabiser,

>I'll soon only be seeing humans at the security checkpoints.<


Hmmm? Are you sure they are?

[graphitestick]

Regarding men wanding men and women wanding women at security. Firstly I hope a good hands on search is carried out first as the search is not only to find metal items but non metalic weapons hence male passengers can't be waved through when the male guard is frisking, also a percentage of random searches have to be done on top of activations and its not for some else to choose.

[Globaliser]

Hmmm? Are you sure they are?As I entered the search area, they were all lounging about gossiping amongst themselves - which makes me believe that they definitely were human. This time.

When one of them saw me, one said "Passenger!" and they all sprang into action to screen my bags. It reminded me of this Far Side cartoon:-

http://www.darylscience.com/graphics/FarSideCownCar.gif

[DJFish]

I dropped my other half at T4 this morning at 5ish, I did wonder what the super-tent was all about but presumed there was just another strike on somewhere.
I have to say that as an infrequent flyer I was quite shocked at what a total cack hole the place was, as Britain's flagship airport and the national carrier's shop front the place was a total disgrace.
The toilets were full and overflowing, some staff gave misleading information and were generally unhelpful (some were the opposite but were in a minority) and the place just felt run down and shabby, not to mention the fact that the place was full of people which is never a good thing at that time of the morning.
Glad it wasn't me flying today.

[DarkStar]

And finally Bloody Awful Airports have a message on their website claiming
a) too many people departing early on holiday for Easter (odd that I was caught in February in all this, now that really was an early Easter.)


What the BAA fail to say is that every BA seasonal schedule is agreed with the BAA for 'Terminal Constraints' which includes passenger numbers thru all the Terminals, therefore such postings on their website is laughable :hmm:

[Bangkokeasy]

Certain posts excepted, I am afraid I still don't understand the British public's acceptance of poor standards. Allow me to provide an example of what it should be:

On Friday, I flew out of my "home" airport of Don Muang (Bangkok), intending to head for gate 44. Instead, I can only assume somewhat hung over from the night before, I went through security for gate 74 (easily done, as they are roughly opposite each other :O ). With apologies and a sheepish grin, I then turned round and went through the correct security screen before joining the flight. My point is, that going through BOTH these security screens, including a wallet and body check TWICE, as well as stopping to identify a suspicious fountain pen, took only 5 minutes.

Now, in Heathrow, by contrast...

[FormerFlyer]

FormerFlyrer, best of luck with the IRIS (http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/ind/en/home/applying/iris.html) programme - been trying to get checked for over a year, never open or available (often didn't have the time after queuing in Security screening!) when I gone through LHR T4:

Well got myself all registered in about 5 minutes or so - no problems & dead simple. I did overhear them tell another prospective punter that at the moment for the trial you have to travel at least once every 3 (or maybe it was 6) months to qualify, on top of all the other criteria.

Will be inbound to LHR from DOH tomorrow morning, so that will be the real test - if I@'m awake enough to find the bleedin' machine :sad:

cheers ;)
FF

[Leodis]

This goes some way to explain the DFT and the NASP and ultimately the long queues at airport security check-points. Taken from the DFT website.

Co-operation between Government and the transport industry
Strong relationships have been established with industry, designed to initiate discussions on threat, intelligence, costs and regulation. The emphasis remains on TRANSEC's front-line activities and working in partnership with industry to raise standards as the Government and police alone cannot provide the security regime that is needed.
TRANSEC works closely with all stakeholders to keep under review existing protective security regimes which are designed to achieve proportionality and cost-effectiveness while taking into account the nature of the threat.
Aviation sector
There is a natural, healthy and inevitable tension in the relationship between TRANSEC as the regulator and the industries regulated, given TRANSEC's purpose and the understandable desire of industry to reduce its exposure to security costs. Consultation arrangements with the aviation industry, both through the formal structure of the Department's National Aviation Security Committee (NASC) and its sub-committees, and through regular day-to-day contact at working level are very well established. TRANSEC believes that these arrangements generally work well and that a constructive relationship with the industry exists. TRANSEC is nonetheless always open to suggestions from stakeholders as to how these arrangements may be further enhanced.
The UK's National Aviation Security Programme (NASP) has been in place for many years and much of it is now mandated in EC law. In recent years changes to the NASP have focused on adjusting existing measures rather than developing totally new requirements. Consequently, these adjustments have not been subject to formal Regulatory Impact Assessment (RIA) procedures, although consultation is undertaken in every case, including consideration of cost as well as practicability and sustainability. TRANSEC has recently reviewed this process and has decided to implement a more formal approach to considering the potential impact of new requirements, based on the formal RIA process. TRANSEC and transport security operate in line with the general principles of good regulation.
The Department does not accept the suggestion made by British Airways in their evidence to the Committee that there is over-regulation in the UK compared with other countries. The Airline has suggested this in general terms to TRANSEC but has not set out in detail the measures it regards as excessive. British Airways states that "in the UK there are more than 50 additional measures required by the Department for Transport and the Government to be implemented by UK airlines alone, over and above those stipulated by EU regulation". This demands some clarification. EU regulation provides a minimum baseline standard, and Member States are permitted to apply more stringent measures. Aviation interests in the UK face a higher level of threat than those in most other Member States and TRANSEC therefore requires, in some areas of its regulation, security measures over and above the EU minimum.

Aviation security in this country is non professional people doing a professional job with a non professional wage. Need I say more.

[Polehill.flt70]

Aviation security in this country is non professional people doing a professional job with a non professional wage. Need I say more.


So you say 'pay peanuts and you get monkeys'?? Some of us take pride in our work and have to work under the mis-management of people who really do not have the first idea of security with common sense. I havent been in the job long but somedays i feel like 'why do i bother'. Hassle from Terminal Officers, Supervisors and Passengers alike with no thanks from anyone for a poxy wage, when i could be stacking shelves at Asda for more money and less responsibility.

I love the job and i love the people i work with and thats what makes it worth while for me. Anything else and i have started letting it go over my head, because thats the only way to deal with it.

I am always polite and have a smile on my face, i go out of my way to make the whole security thing not seem horrendous to the passengers because they have paid for their hols/business trip and its not their fault that management and staffing is sometimes as c~~~ as it is. We have to make do and thats the problem, we shouldnt have to make do and quite frankly neither should the passengers.

[Bumz_Rush]

in regard to carry on bags....this should reduce the security delays, assuming that you have removed your shoes, belt, lap top and make up from your bag, and taken off your outer garment.

Just as an aside why do Luton insist that you do NOT put your coat in the tray, and every other airport I have been to recently insists you dont.

Will Luton pay for all the damage to buttons, belt etc, that get tangled in the rollers....

Bumz

[manintheback]

Spot the difference

BAA Website
"Too many people departing early on holiday for Easter"

BAA Report from BBC Website
"UK airports group BAA has reported a 1.4% dip in March's passenger numbers compared with a year ago.....BAA, which owns seven UK airports, said that the late timing of Easter this year had also contributed to the fall."


ooops

[radeng]

And the fall isn't reaction from people getting so pi**ed off in the queues for security that next time, they go elsewhere?

[gdiphil]

Spot the difference
BAA Website
"Too many people departing early on holiday for Easter"
BAA Report from BBC Website
"UK airports group BAA has reported a 1.4% dip in March's passenger numbers compared with a year ago.....BAA, which owns seven UK airports, said that the late timing of Easter this year had also contributed to the fall."
ooops
I think alot of people have been caught on the hop this year due to the very late date of Easter. Most schools finished two weeks before Good Friday and start back next Tuesday 18th hence the alleged "too many people departing early on holiday for Easter". I am hoping my LHR T4 experience on Thursday will be civilised as a consequence!

[radeng]

gdiphil,
>I am hoping my LHR T4 experience on Thursday will be civilised as a consequence!<
'Civilised' and 'LHR T4' are arguably mutually contradictory at the best of times. However, the best of luck.

[Final Call]

The whole problem has arisen from HAL trying to reduce the cost of providing security.

Parallel to the DTR requesting that HAL enhance screening to comply with the minimum requirements for screening, they also announced that they were combining the posts of the security management, and the "customer service" (front of house trolleys etc) function. This has in effect halved the progression for employees within the organisation and has caused, let's say "an atmosphere" amongst the workforce.

In meetings with HAL, they have put the blame on passenger's huge amount of hand luggage causing the problems. Also the airline community have passed forward a number of suggestions to improve the service, but not one penny has been spent since the problem arose over six weeks ago.

We get regular briefings now on how they are managing the situation, but when all is said and done, more has been said than done!

I have a few views on this....

I travel through Dublin frequently, where I have to take off my shoes, belt etc etc, and have nowhere near the amount of queuing than in LHRT2 for example.

Also, hand luggage? The screening takes place before the shopping, yet compared to most European airports where this takes place either after the airside/tax free shopping areas or, at boarding gates, considering that pax may have even more opportunity to increase their handluggage, there are not the same problems, or anywhere near.

The laptop business?... well if you are queuing for an hour you have probably prepared for the removal of laptop, etc 5 times by the time you reach the machines out of sheer boredom, and the want of something to do.

How HAL want to tackle the problem? well as cheaply as possible. Instead of investing in such infrastructure such as more staff, extra machines, better facilities, they want the airlines to enforce hand luggage restrictions. Hardly good for our product is it?

No longer can our business class pax turn up early in the hope of relaxing in the exec lounge and catch up on the odd email, by the time they have queued, they might as well go straight to the gate.

It is just another example of HAL's shortfalls on Airport Management.

Blame, excuses, PR (took weeks for BBC / press to acknowledge the problem and report on it, but that was inline with HAL's press release about Hand Luggage restrictions) is what is managed rather than dealing with the problem itself.

I for one will not be restricting my passenger's already limited hand luggage allowance further until I see HAL close the landside shopping outlets, (likely?? )ensuring they are serious properly managing this crisis.

rant rant rage rage etc....

[10secondsurvey]

Some people on this thread clearly have major neuroses with other passengers hand baggage. If I board last, and there is no more overhead space, then that is just tough.

If I pay for a business ticket which cost more and gives me more luggage allowance, I see no reason not to use it. As regards this whole debate, the bottom line is that BAA want to use any trick to maximise profits, including tight restrictions on hand luggage, and blaming the paying passengers for any delays (due to understaffing). Never forget, that EVERY time you go through security at an airport, you are paying to do so. It is not a free service.

I cannot think of many other service industries where such poor service is offered, with no recourse for a refund, or alternative supplier. It truly is a gravy train for BAA, there is no alternative, and passengers seem happy to accept that all of it is their own fault for being slow or stupid. So tell me why BAA should give a flying f***? They are maximising their profits, that's all, and the media/public seem to believe any old guff they issue in press releases.


Soon a new rule will be introduced: you cannot take any hand luggage at all through security (in order to speed things up, of course), but you are allowed to purchase up to 7Kg in weight of duty free goods (at high street prices or more!) from BAA concessions. A nice little earner!

[paulc]

I went through LHR T2 last Thursday (early am) - queue for security stretched to arrivals end of T2 but only took 20mins to get through. It did speed up as more lanes were opened to cope.

Returned Sunday late pm and despite having an airport tour as our stand was not available for about 10mins - I was still in the car within 30 mins of landing. Short queue at immigration and baggage was on carousel as I got there - even parking bus turned up within a couple of mins - timing was very lucky this time - other times have been far worse.

[PAXboy]

paulc sums it up - you never know what the timing is going to be. You have to assume the worst delays in both directions. When it is less than bad, we consider ourselves 'lucky'. That is not how it shoul be, as 10Sec so rightly states. Most regulars negotiate LHR because we know it of old and may know the best route to take and how to get to the gate quickly, the newcomer does not stand a chance. I have considered becoming a shareholder of BAA, just so that I could complain at the AGM. :hmm:

[Ozzy]

Arriving T4 tomorrow at 08:35 and need to get to T1. What's the likely delay going to be, anyone know?

Ta

Ozzy

[ExSimGuy]

Never forget, that EVERY time you go through security at an airport, you are paying to do so. It is not a free service.
If you ever travel as a "staff" passenger, you will clearly see the "AirportTax" charge, as you will have to pay that separately. Without going back through my credit card staements, I think it is UK Pounds 30 for a transatlantic departure. ("regular" passenger tickets have these charges in a fairly unintelligible box in the bottom left corner, along with other charges, so it's not easy to spot)

So yes, you are paying for the privelige of being mde to queue for however long, with x-ray machines that aren't all manned, in order to have to rush around the "tax-free" shops before you board.

"Tax-Free" shops - A bottle of Scotch in LHR at only marginally less that in the High Street, despite the heavy excises duty, plus VAT on the goods AND on the duty(!) that you pay in the high street. Cigarettes may be quite a bit less in the D/F shop, but the TRUE price, free of all duty, is UNDER a POUND! "Tax Free"? - No, just a rip-off :mad: (for which the shop pays BAA a very nice rent out of your "duty-free" purchases) Mostly "Don't Bother"

[ATCO1987]

Thank you, graphitestick. The DfT do not recognise wands afaik (thats what we are told at Bristol anyway) we must do body searching by hand.

Correct, as I said before; random searches are a must. Weve got these nice new AMD's at Bristol that pick out the randoms for us, but we should still pick a passenger at random if we believe they are acting suspiciously.

If the male body searcher is engaged in a search, we hold the male pax back from the AMD and let the ladies through, when the male body searcher is approaching the end of his search we let the males through the AMD.

While we are on the subject, what is the obsession with passengers choosing to go back out and walk through the AMD again when it goes off!? Its still going to go off!!! Dear oh dear.

[Eaglestar7]

Thank you, graphitestick. The DfT do not recognise wands afaik (thats what we are told at Bristol anyway) we must do body searching by hand.

Correct, as I said before; random searches are a must. Weve got these nice new AMD's at Bristol that pick out the randoms for us, but we should still pick a passenger at random if we believe they are acting suspiciously.

If the male body searcher is engaged in a search, we hold the male pax back from the AMD and let the ladies through, when the male body searcher is approaching the end of his search we let the males through the AMD.

While we are on the subject, what is the obsession with passengers choosing to go back out and walk through the AMD again when it goes off!? Its still going to go off!!! Dear oh dear.

We have the same problem at Leeds. You say, "step forward please" and they step backwards. The people that really wind me up are the ones who act cleaver and say "i've got a bomb in my bag", and the crew who say, "what are you doing this for?".Err!! The crew really take it to heart, they don't realise it is our procedure to search "x" amount of bags, crew/staff or passengers. As far as crew go, when they complain about us searching their bags. I always say "I am following procedure, I would hope you do the same when you are in the air!" An annoying ground crew menber, "This is ****ing rediculous", reply usually would be "Do we tell you how to push back aircraft?"

[patdavies]

While we are on the subject, what is the obsession with passengers choosing to go back out and walk through the AMD again when it goes off!? Its still going to go off!!! Dear oh dear.

This may be conditioning. In many US airports you are made to go back and forth repeatedly, each time removing watch, belt, shoes, etc until you get through w/o a beep

[Eaglestar7]

This may be conditioning. In many US airports you are made to go back and forth repeatedly, each time removing watch, belt, shoes, etc until you get through w/o a beep

This is called the process of elimination and it will become widely used here soon.

[ATCO1987]

Taking things off and walking back through the AMD all the time until it beeps just holds the queue up, its easier just to search someone.

I flew out of Manchester the other week and those guys hand search people then wand them afterwards, any Manch people able to advise the reason behind that? :S.

[RevMan2]

they don't realise it is our procedure to search "x" amount of bags, crew/staff or passengers.
OK, now if we were really smart, wouldn't we be triaging and identifying those who post the least (if any) threat to civil aviation i.e. operating crew and then focus our efforts on the rest?
And as for "It's called the process of elimination"... Ever heard of the concept of diminishing returns?
For crying out loud - if you find you're doing a high number of multiple scans at your airport, inform your passengers in a timely manner what they have to remove from their persons prior to initial processing and we might achieve a tad more efficiency around here
:ugh:

[RevMan2]

The people that really wind me up are the ones who act cleaver and say "i've got a bomb in my bag",


Eaglestar7

If you're tolerating this, you're not doing your job.

[Cahlibahn]

How come my shoes trigger an AMD alert in France but not in UK?

[Eaglestar7]

Eaglestar7

If you're tolerating this, you're not doing your job.

As the saying goes - "If I had a pound for everytime I heared that"

In honesty, everytime it is said it is judged separately on each occasion. It has to be otherwise we would have long queues outside the Magistrate Courts. Sometimes people say it being big headed, thoses are pulled over. Sometimes people just say it in gest, not understanding what they're doing, like little old dears. Someone says something along those lines at least once every shift that I work, even by airport workers and airline crew. That is what we are up against.

[radeng]

One could see some confusion from a French person who didn't speak English well - they could be referring to a 'bombe' in which one makes ice cream.
For example, a 'Bombe Americain' requires the yolks of 32 eggs, 4 pints of cream, 4 pounds of strawberries and 3 pounds of raspberries, and a fair size 'bombe' to put it in. One can imagine the confusion that could be caused by two chefs (especailly at a US airport!) discussing their trade...............