stop encouraging... (merged with 'Is there any hope') [Archive]

adm100

28th Feb 2006, 16:44

From my understanding, the psychological tests used in pilot selection are not a pass/fail type of deal, but and aid to the recruitment people in the selection of suitable candidates. When they have the results of the psychological test, they can compare them with the impression the candidate left at the interview stage and the answers given. If there is a discrepancy between the psychological report and the answers given in the interview, it is a possible indicator that the candidate was lying in either the test, the interview or both.

As far as the point that if a pilot is qualified, he is good enough, from my experience this is probably not true. I have met many people who either hold or are capable of holding an ATPL, but I would not personally want to spend 12 hours on a flight deck with them. People who, for one reason or another would not fit in to a particular airline have a negative impact on all those who they work with, and as such when recruiting, an airline will try as best as possible to select the candidate who will fit in. The psychological test can be an integral part of this selection.

karimi

28th Feb 2006, 21:42

First of all, an airline has to assess the abilities of a candidate regarding a position.
For us the required qualities are obvious. By going through psychological questionnaire, the psy get a first picture.
The psychotechnics test are also an excellent clue to figure out the learning abilities of a wannabee. In our modern world where competition prevails, where fuel cost is increasing day by day, airlines do not want to spend extra money on training so they want to mesure how fast a candidate can learn, adapt himself to new and unexpected situation: a sim check shows the flying skills and level of a pilot but does not show how long it took him to reach this level!
Team work is essential in our job: between cockpit crew, cabin crew, ground staff , ATC, management, pax..etc Group exercices are made for this purpose:
How an individual interacts with others while dealing with problems solving, enigmas etc... It is a very cheap way for airline selection (much cheaper than sim!!) and a most companies have integrated the group exercise as a part of their selection for management positions (we are managers!).
At last but not least, an individual meeting with the psy is part of some airline interview: Does the candidate fit the position, what is is motivation, does he know the airline and company he is applying for, what is his background, studies...etc

You must not see the whole process as a way to sack or eliminate you!!
If a company is recruiting, that means that they need you!!
Take this as a way to show your motivation, your abilities, your will to join the airline, to be a plus and of course your love of flying.....:ok:

Good luck

A320rider

28th Feb 2006, 21:57

what about a captain at easyjet applying at BA and who has to pass some tests(again).
if he is not accepted, does it mean easyjet have not "so good "pilots?.
and about a pilot being accepted at BA and not at ryanair?

and what about all these psy tests you can get online and train your self?

I think the best is to be an average person with average score in everything, but what about a bad day, you score low because you didnt slept the night before?

do you know pilots being refused after passing these tests, and why?

hedges81 is right,i got some questions, same like 15 years ago, but this time I didnt fall in the catch!
you can answer in a way to make the company happy even if you disagree.

"do you have problem to fly with women", the answer is simple, but what about if you disagree really to fly with a woman.?
"if you have to start again, what would you do": answer is :learn to fly abd become a pilot. they want see how motivated you are. airlines want take high motivated people.not the one who wanted be a doctor or policeman.

that s just some exemples...

guimaraes

1st Mar 2006, 18:50

What the hell happened with this industry?Why is every airline asking for a TR and experience?Ok,you can get a TR,but how the **** am I gonna get experience if no airline will employ me without experience?

When I remember that my father got a job when he entered the flight school,all I feel is I wanna cry....:mad:

Will it change?I know no one can say it for sure,but please guys,give me some hopeeeee!!!!!

A320rider

1st Mar 2006, 20:23

you know, I talked recently with a retired captain. he told me the situation is crazy and he was sorry for us.
this guy, paid for his license(cpl,IR ), then got a job in a major.that was 50 years ago...

this planet is changing(not in good, in bad), the poors are poorer and richs richer.
we are just more humans on this planet(6.5 billiard), and we count to much on petrol.
we have now to take care of these poor countries who do not have fuel, and for this we have increased taxes.
And more we have to pay taxe, less rich we become(poorer we become, we are already poor),...
same problem for the immigration, retirement, social healthcare,...it is simply a slowly degradation of this planet and the airline industry is the first area to be affected....

since I know aviation, every year it is more expensive!
in 2020, we will have 10 workers for 8 retired!

we could reverse the situation, by bringing work in these poor countries, they need water and road.it take only 10 years to create a prospective country with even some airlines, but are we ready for it?are the politicians and the industry ready?

(and to all of you, please stop to encourage people to start flying, you can not even get a job!)

this is a general answer to your question, sorry for my bad english.

A320rider

1st Mar 2006, 20:51

Please, would you stop encouraging young people to become a pilot, when you can not get a flying job yourself.Look at the number of unemployed pilots, do you think it is a good time to screw more people by giving them fake hopes...?

what kind of person are you?
if I had kids, I would never authorize them to try to be a pilot, only a PP.

why do you do that?

TACHO

1st Mar 2006, 21:10

oh dear oh dear.... where to start???

I dont really know to whom your post is addressed, as far as I am aware this forum is for people looking for advice, and to some degree encouragement. By encouraging the younger generation to persevere in achieving thier dreams we are not putting others at a disadvantage, we each succeed, and indeed fail on our own merits alone.

The reason there is a surplus of pilots is because it appears from the outside to be a tremendously desirable job!!!! not because people on this forum are encouraging them, the fact that someone makes thier way to this forum would normally indicate that they are doing thier research to decide whether or not thier career decision is a viable reality.

To be perfectly honest I wouldnt base a decision solely on what participants to this forum suggest, this is but one of many sources which may be perused in order to reach a well informed decision...

Tacho

wobble2plank

1st Mar 2006, 21:20

A320Rider,

Winding the threads tight again are we?????

:rolleyes: :zzz: :rolleyes: :zzz: :E

BigGrecian

1st Mar 2006, 21:22

Just a quick question A320rider - I was under the impression that you and spaceman1000 where the same person - who therefore had a couple of jet hours or heavy TP experience - so instead of moaning all the time how about you get out of that chair your sitting in or point your browser away fromm PPrune and look at some jobs....or is it because your including your PPrune username on your CV that you haven't got a job? :confused:
Be positive and upbeat and keep working at it and I'm sure we'll all succeed.
Why do we encourage others? Because its all about that one moment when your flying and you look out the window and you realise your doing the best job in the world, and one which you love.:ok:

Send Clowns

1st Mar 2006, 21:22

A320

Everyone I know who actually takes responsibility for themselves, works hard towards their career, and has personality is getting a lot of interest or has a job. You have the wrong personality for a pilot, as you have shown by your persistent posting here. It is hardly surprising that you have no job. Despite the fact that you have been told that the market is stronger in the UK than in much of Europe you persist in the assumption that your problems will be encountered by everyone on a British-dominated website. You are therefore disingenuous and dishonest.

Ironic that you complain about your parents' attitude, then you say that you would be even worse, trying to control any children you have completely, even when they are adults. Why do you have the arrogance to demand what other people should do with their lives, just because of your failure? Seems to me like jealousy, that you want to stop people doing what you are incapable of doing.

charliegolf

1st Mar 2006, 21:25

And......

Learning new skills 'for the love of it' is the right of everyone (in this case if you have shedload of cash, or can drive yourself to get it).

I'm approaching 50 and can afford it- just. If I was really well off, I'd do the licence just to prove I could. 50's too old if you need the work!

Your argument, if followed through generally, closes off virtually every occupation.

Peaple need to dream. Just look at all the whinging threads about Ts &Cs on pprune- No-one OUGHT to want to do it!

CG

wobble2plank

1st Mar 2006, 21:36

For all those who read this thread because of the header, take heed....

There are lots of people like 'A320Rider', the truth is the market, on this side of the pond, is picking up pretty well. Boeing and Airbus are taking record orders, these translate to 5-10 years worth of airline orders taking the industry into the next 20 years. Huge airport expansion across europe (not looking at EGLL here :uhoh: ) coupled with the rise of the loco's is making the oppotunities better. Money at the start is pretty c$$p and the life style can leave a little to be desired at the outset but, it is still fun, challenging and enjoyable and it does get better, but you need the toe in the door at the outset. Seeing London on your last sector at night on a crystal clear evening still takes my breath away!

Don't give up if thats what you wish, you will always find these nuggets in any job!!!

:ok:

littco

1st Mar 2006, 22:42

A320 rider. My milkman is due to retire next month, he's a cynical miserable W***** as well, may be you should forward me your CV and I can handle it to him, never know you might get his job!

Pm me if your interested!

UB6IB9

2nd Mar 2006, 03:33

dude.....stop posting trash all the time and picking fights. why don't you sit down and study your atpl's and maybe one day when your all grown up, you'll be an a320flyer instead of an a320rider.

p.s. i slept with your mother

cheers

herta

2nd Mar 2006, 05:57

A320, As tu pensé à te faire interner ?!

Translation for none french speakers :
Did you think about having yourself interned !?

guimaraes

2nd Mar 2006, 06:33

A320,
you might be right,but I'll tell you what happened to me.
I graduated from the high school in 2002. and wanted to go to the flight school,but my father who is b737 instructor told me not to,because I would never gonna get a job.
From that flight school 30 pilot were recruited in 2004. and Type rated by an airliner and given a job.So that means that if I sterted in 2003. as I planned,I would probably be in that group,and would be flying jets right now.

I'm gonna go from my CPL/IR in oct/nov,don't know yet,but now I'm sure I'm gonna do it,with or without his help.
I think it's better to be unemployed for 2-3 years than work something you don't like next 40 years.

potkettleblack

2nd Mar 2006, 07:09

A320 - Why didn't you go to university, get a degree in a relevant subject (law, accounting, engineering etc etc), get a decent paying job and self fund the training that way. Take time out or go on contract for the larger training segments like the CPL and IR and use your holidays for building hours in the US or somewhere cheap, hot and fun. Then whilst you are working earning decent money you can be sending out your CV as well and if it never happens well at least you havent put all your eggs into one basket. You could even try and get a non flying job in an airline and develop your contacts that way. Or you could I suppose get huge loans and sit on pprune bleating about no one giving you a job.

hazehoe

2nd Mar 2006, 07:26

"As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions."

Does he(A320) elicit certain reactions or what?!

A320 keep them coming always good fun.;)

guimaraes

2nd Mar 2006, 08:31

A320,
I think you're right at some point.It is bulls.hit that every airline is asking you a TR and experience.I have a chance to get a CPL/IR and a fATPL at reasonable price,otherwise I wouldn't even think about getting it.
As it has been said 1000000 times,it is 'rich kids' job',but I hope it will change.
I don't suggest anyone to buy TR,it's airliner's duty to do for us...

RVR800

2nd Mar 2006, 08:36

On the other hand there are many people in this industry who are broke and have had their lives destroyed by it....

A320rider is there to let you know that this is a fact... Its the counter argument

He is also quite amusing

ItsAjob

2nd Mar 2006, 09:20

A320 you are one funny dude!
They just always fall for your bait.
You should be the next Jerry Springer

A320rider

2nd Mar 2006, 11:12

oh my god, it s all about me now, you project your frustration on me, so you can feel better.!!
why can you just be honest, and stop dreaming about a flying job.

when you invest 100'000 euro in a training, have you thought it would take 3-4 years to refund your training, and IF you are paid.

How many people are you going to encourage to follow this expensive path (aviation lottery)

Each time you encourage one of these young chaps,he jeopardizes his life and the life of his family. Many families are now in trouble with their bank. They have lost their home, lost their money...

and I am really fedup with your kiddy posts like :"follow you dream, if you don't you will never know...."this is so naive and so childish! why don't you say instead: "go ahead, if you don't find a job, I will pay you back!" , or "here the money for you".
you think you give good advise but you don't take any responsability.

I spoke with an airline manager last day , he told me he does not want people he did not train, want young chaps between 21-23 yeqrs old with 0 hour, and he has 3000 application every year, and he selects only 10-15 guys.

all Cv with hours go directly to the bin.

I am proposing to:

1- stop encouraging students to become an airline pilot.
2-stop telling them to buy for a type rating
3-stop telling them that flying a plane as a commercial pilot is fun
4-do not answer from wanabee questions
5-be just negative (as I am)and moan the best you can
6-be realistic and destroy overconfidence or even confidence.
7-tell the truth about you, and how hard it is.
8-etc

eagerbeaver

2nd Mar 2006, 11:40

failed another test? proves they work, seems to me you are an arse.

A320rider

2nd Mar 2006, 11:58

is it advised to play videogames before psytests.

what kind of videogames do you suggest, far cry?doom? donkeykong, pacman, star invaders? frog? flight simulator?

I will go back in my software box to look what I have and spend some hours to shoot to death some people.

Boingy

2nd Mar 2006, 12:07

Anything that requires Hand Eye Co-ordination and if it's foot aswell that's got to be a bonus.

Maybe a combat flight sim - Hand/Eye Co-ordination plus the fluidity of the areial combat and everchanging scenarios might keep your mental assesment skills on par?

the_aviator

2nd Mar 2006, 12:15

I played a bit of Call of Duty 2 and MS Flight Sim 2004 prior to my tests.

FPS games are really good for your reactions, and try and play some games that use a joystick as some of the actual Pilot aptitude tests require the use of a joystick.

p.s. The most recent great game I have played was F.E.A.R. If you haven't already played it, check it out! :E

FlashJordan

2nd Mar 2006, 12:19

a320rider I feel you have some very good points but put them over in a very bad way.

Your current position is very concerning for me as a wannabe who is also putting up the family home as a guarantee to finance the training.

I agree with some of the previously mentioned postings that for a wannabe it is a very good idea to be in employment before starting training, in case you don't walk straight into an airline job.

I am currently an engineer and keeping my options open of going back into this field after training as a contingency plan. I couldn't live with myself if I wasn't able to afford the repayments of the loan I am taking out for training and the family home was at risk!

hugofly

2nd Mar 2006, 12:58

A320rider,
People decide of their career before coming to PPRuNe, we do not decide for them, nobody is hiding that the market has been rough for quite some time, that the licences are expensive as hell, that it is unacceptable to pay for a type rating and that certainly not everybody will get to sit in front of a glass cockpit.
After that, they decide to keep going, great i wish them good luck and i hope they got what it takes.
Hopefully they will assume their decision like real men.
You have been on the wrong web site all this time, this is PPRuNe not crybaby.com.
All your posts are only demonstrating that you don't have the right stuff for this career, i mean passion for everything flying, overcoming the technical difficulty of doing something only meant for birds.
You are here for the wrong reason: money prospect, social status, uniform privilege, you've demonstrated it in your past posts.
Why do you think airline pilots with career are waisting their time here discussing and providing info? passion for aviation.
If you had that, you would not be bitter at those young talented and passionate pilots who beat you at the job.

RVR800

2nd Mar 2006, 13:17

Yes becoming familiar with two screen displays is good

But do remember to put one on top of the other and then put the joy stick on the right hand side.

Familarity with running a computer is essential

And dont forget to look out of the office window

boogie-nicey

2nd Mar 2006, 13:45

In the UK as with any other FREE country you have a open run at what you want to do. If you want the most in life then it costs the most and not just in terms of money but effort, sacrifice, time and of course risk. Otherwise there would be no 'weight' to people's achievement, this isn't just a practical assumption but a soical law of common sense. Indeed all wannabes need to research their chosen career path but we shouldn't be discouraging them, that's just wrong it's like employment apatheid, in which case who chooses and judges on whom can pursue aviation or get's left behind? The flipside to this is that once you done adequate research and worked hard at the training then you shouldn't moan (well not persistently anyway) upon graduation when you can't get a job, you need to be grown up and realise that's just life. Engineers don't leave university and go straight onto build a damn or an award winning skyscraper, that'll come later in their career. However aviation has led many a wannabe into thinking that a jet job is the norm and not the exception which has a negative impact in terms realistic perceptions and distracts pilots from pursuing the more traditional (but still effective) paths of experience and hour building. Maybe the employment framework is such that it's trying to give fATPLs a message that you haven't quite finished yet, go and take the next step in something like Instruction, air taxi, etc and also be patient (remember the best things come to those who wait). Even after all that there will inevitably be some casualties that's just how it is in all walks of life.

As a brief exmaple my wife studied real hard as a Midwife in another country then married me :) and now has to jump through hoops here in the UK to even become a general nurse all due to petty bureacracy. Whereas she sees a load of know nothing nurses brought in from other countries get jobs in hospitals. The difference being just a handful of months worth of experience between them and her BUT she doesn't spend her days complaining about how it's a conspiracy against her, she just gets on with.

In other words aviation is just as brutal in terms of a job market as any other industry, look at the queues of Hollywood wannabes that spend all their money on photo shoots, agents, travelling up and down the country for auditions whilst all the time losing out on alternative careers because they were just trying to get that lucky break? What about my father who studied as a Civil Engineer and upon graduatino couldn't find a job and has recently retired as a factory worker, didn't hear him moan, he just concentrated on other things in life. There are a million and one stories like this out there in the world in many sectors of employment but the difference is those who pick themselves up and those that just sit there complaining about how hard done by they have been. As an aviator never forget how privileged you are with or without a job, must I remind you of the majority in this world that are way, way behind you in terms of quality of life or should I say survival itself.

As for A320rider you disappoint me my friend, have you thought about going to live in Canada and spending a couple of years flying commuter aircraft and moving up through the industry that way? If you love aviation so much have you though about FI AND Ground instruction so that you come as a true instructor package? Maybe you do that for a year get the signoffs, lease a small aircraft and set yourself up in the instruction business. Then you'll get the chance to attract business by telling all your prospective customers that there are many jobs out there just waiting to be filled :) I doubt you'd complain then! There is always a 'next step' it just depends if you have the will inside and think you can make the jump.

What you CANNOT do in life is dictate what other people can or cannot do that is the kind of second rate comment that comes from a politician's mouth. 'Free to do whatever one chooses and responsible for each and everyone of those actions, that's the price of personal freedoms'.

moggiee

2nd Mar 2006, 15:05

what about a captain at easyjet applying at BA and who has to pass some tests(again).
if he is not accepted, does it mean easyjet have not "so good "pilots?.
.
No - it means that different airlines wnat different things from their pilots.

Some place a high degree of emphasis upon technical skills and handling ability, with teamworking skills taken for granted or of a lower priority.

Others will attach a high degree of priority to how the pilot in question works within a team, believing that the key to being a good airline pilot is in what lies between your ears, rather than in absolute stick and rudder skills (although, of course, you need to be a competent pilot).

Most of all, they need to get a "feel" for whether or not that person will fit - they don't want square pegs to try to fit into round holes.

moggiee

2nd Mar 2006, 15:11

A320,
,it is 'rich kids' job',..
Way, way wide of the mark. Many of our customers are far from rich. In fact, most have to save hard from their earnings to obtain a CPL, IR, MCC and FIC. One such pilot has just, after 9 months as an FI, landed a job with easyjet.

He got that job because he passed their selection - and he put himself in a position to go for that selection by sheer hard work and ability. For the record, he is one of the best "team" people that I have ever seen in my 10 years teaching LOFT, JOC and MCC - being a "rich kid" played no part in him getting where he is today.

woof

2nd Mar 2006, 16:52

oh my god, it's all about me now,

It's always been about you. You keep moaning and whinging and bleating about complete and utter bollox. We are captivated, eager for the next chapter of drivel.

Bottom line is, there are loads of opportunities for all out there - I dare say even you, but and here it comes........

You have to get off your arse and do something about it.

If, as seems to be happening, you fail test after test after test, ask yourself what you are doing wrong.

Now, be a good boy and go re-invent yourself like you always do, but this time come back as a positive type.

Delta Wun-Wun

2nd Mar 2006, 16:58

Moggie,
Having spoke to him yesterday he is far from a rich kid. A normal hard working guy considerably poorer in cash terms but it has paid off and well deserved. There are jobs out there. You have to go and look. Don`t matter whether your mod or integrated, right place right time counts for a lot.

guimaraes

2nd Mar 2006, 18:18

Way, way wide of the mark. Many of our customers are far from rich. In fact, most have to save hard from their earnings to obtain a CPL, IR, MCC and FIC. One such pilot has just, after 9 months as an FI, landed a job with easyjet.

He got that job because he passed their selection - and he put himself in a position to go for that selection by sheer hard work and ability. For the record, he is one of the best "team" people that I have ever seen in my 10 years teaching LOFT, JOC and MCC - being a "rich kid" played no part in him getting where he is today.

No matter what you say,and what examples you give me,the fact is its a rich kids' job.The one who can buy TR and hours has better chance to get a job than me who can barely afford fATPL.You can agree or disagree,but it is a FACT.Not to mention the advantage you guys from EU states have versus me from non-EU state.Just not being a EU citizen,makes me not employable in more than 100 airlines.And I have to go through the same process to get a licence as you guys do.
There is much injustice in world of aviation,but if you like it very much you'll go through everything to reach your goal...

Send Clowns

3rd Mar 2006, 23:50

Heard today about another friend who has a job. Low hours, no type rating, onto a 737. Just been having a beer with a friend who is moving on, was working single-crew for a Danish company now to be working for a UK operator, so there's a job that will need filling by someone with some experience in a job that itself will need fillling by a low-hour pilot.

Lots of jobs around, and A320 is showing a great demonstration of the type of person who doesn't get those jobs. Thanks A320.

guimaraes

I am not sure why you are talking about facts, without knowing a lot about the industry where there are few hard facts and many opinionated amateurs. I was warned against paying for a type rating even though I could find the money. It can be a help, bu can also be a hindrance in finding a job.

More than 100 airlines? For a start who is restricting themselves to airlines? There are more than 100 operators in the UK, let alone Europe!

Most of the people I taught, many of whom now have jobs, were not rich. They would be offended to hear people assume that if they were thin-skinned and not too busy enjoying their work!

Luke SkyToddler

4th Mar 2006, 04:48

Not really on topic but question for delta and moggiee, are Flying Instructors really getting called by Easyjet now? I knew they'd lowered their minimums from 1500 to 500 multi crew, but that kind of surprises me? Did this chap really honestly only have 9 months instructing? And no contacts in the company?

Send Clowns

4th Mar 2006, 08:51

LST

I know people with a lot less than that getting into Easy! Just a JOC really.

six-sixty

4th Mar 2006, 09:26

Exactly - via CTC you can go straight into Easy with an fATPL and min hours if you pass the selection. Thought everyone knew that!

guimaraes

4th Mar 2006, 09:55

guimaraes

I am not sure why you are talking about facts, without knowing a lot about the industry where there are few hard facts and many opinionated amateurs. I was warned against paying for a type rating even though I could find the money. It can be a help, bu can also be a hindrance in finding a job.

More than 100 airlines? For a start who is restricting themselves to airlines? There are more than 100 operators in the UK, let alone Europe!

Most of the people I taught, many of whom now have jobs, were not rich. They would be offended to hear people assume that if they were thin-skinned and not too busy enjoying their work!

Ok,just try to imagine that me and you have the same license,same qualifications,same skills,who do think has better chancees to get a job?You,offcourse.And not because you're better pilot,it's just because you're from EU country.
So,it's easier for you to decide to take a loan and pay for your TR than me,because you it's easier for you to get a job.You can get a job across the world,and I can get a job in my country and in Asia and Africa.

So,when I say rich kids' job,I don't mean only about money,I mean that you guys from rich countries have advantage comparing to us from non EU countries...Plus money offcourse.
How many pilots out there are willing to pay a TR and to work for free a couple of months.A lot...And you can't afford that if you're not rich.
A fact.

Sky Wave

4th Mar 2006, 10:40

1- stop encouraging students to become an airline pilot.
2-stop telling them to buy for a type rating
3-stop telling them that flying a plane as a commercial pilot is fun
4-do not answer from wanabee questions
5-be just negative (as I am)and moan the best you can
6-be realistic and destroy overconfidence or even confidence.
7-tell the truth about you, and how hard it is.
8-etc

A320RIDER

The fact that you seem to have failed the psychologist tests proves the system works. With an attitude like yours, the aeroplane falling to bits and the captain died of a heart attack, it seems you'd sit back, fold your arms and say we're f%%ked, and give up rather than putting up a struggle. I wouldn't want someone with such tendencies flying any plane that my family or friends were on.

Send Clowns

4th Mar 2006, 11:03

guimaraes

4th Mar 2006, 12:02

guimaraes

I entirely agree about the EU passport. I had assumed you meant it was a a rich man's game within the EU. I know people who have done well from all sorts of backgrounds. The ones that sometimes struggle the most are what I have heard termed "DBIs" - Daddy bought it! Some of them have the wrong attitude because they have not had to make sacrifices, or they buy their type ratings and hours then find they are stuck looking for only one type of job which they are not offered. I know people who have had to borrow money from all over, and work hard for scholarships, to keep flying and living after the course, but have got there in the end!

Good luck getting work, either in Serbia and Montenegro or in the EU!

I agree with you that rich kids sometimes struggle more.But,that's natural.They are not used to work hard,because everything they want,they get with their daddy's money.Offcourse,not all of them,but most of them certainly.You know,when I was 17,I worked whole year so I can afford to go to my cousin's house in the US and go to school.I had to go to school till 3PM,and after that I went to work till 9PM,and everything I saw in America was school and work,but at least I learned the language and learned how to fight for yourself.And I don't regret that I spent one of the most beatiful years by working and studying all alone in foerign country,10 000 miles from home.

Thanx,I wish you all the luck too...

Dirty Harry 76

4th Mar 2006, 12:17

guimaraes

I think you will find my friend, rich or poor, that most people have made sacrifices. I too worked overseas for 5 years so I could afford pilot training............and im from a so called rich country.

Life is competitive. Nobody owes you a living. You make your own luck.

My best advice to you is get yourself down to Turkey. Lots of expansion there and they will probably favour a guy like you who would more than likely stay. You will need to make a visit and personal contacts.

Good Luck

guimaraes

4th Mar 2006, 13:10

Mugi

4th Mar 2006, 14:25

Guimaraes - I got your meaning.
Take FTE for example - the Spanish bank will only approve a loan against UK property. Even if that were not the case, your property has got to be worth as much as the loan amount - difficult in lots of countries.

I'm selling my house to pay for my training. I can only do that because the housing market in the UK has seen a huge increase in values and added the price of the training onto the value of my house in the last three years. That's good fortune for me but outside of the UK the property market differes greatly.

Only problem is I've been working for ten years to buy a house and get it up to standard and now I have to say goodbye to it!

A320rider

4th Mar 2006, 15:55

do not sell your house for an aviation training, I am ready to sell my CAA license to buy a house, at least I could have something.A house, is much better than a license with no job at the end.

with a house you can have a life, a job close of where you live. And maybe a family ! so why all these people are selling their house to find themselves in trouble with a useless aviation degree?

this is one more reason why I can not encourage you to join our big jobless community!
@skywaves: you are a rich kid, only rich kids reply to my stupid posts! ;)

Eddie_Crane

4th Mar 2006, 16:03

you are a rich kid, only rich kids reply to my stupid posts! ;)
:} :} :}

PS not a rich kid (unfortunately!!!) ;)

Delta Wun-Wun

4th Mar 2006, 18:16

Luke,
Sorry for the delay in replying, been working. Yes he got in through the CTC scheme. He applied got called, did their selection which he said was very tough and starts on Monday. He is 29 I think and been instructing for about 9 months.:ok:

Fancy Navigator

4th Mar 2006, 21:47

A320rider has a few points:
Unless you have loads and loads of money, borrowing huge amounts to go through PPL/CPL/IR through a modular route is sheer madness (going through an integrated course and spending 60k with no income is even madder!).... I have done it (modular) and I am now crippled with debts....Fortunately, I have a good job that keeps me afloat, but things are very tight and it is going to take me a long time to clear the debt.
I am realistic and I know that with a fresh CPL/IR and about 250 hours, the chances to land that first job are very removed.... I am trying and will not give up, but like everybody else, wonder if I have made the right move. I have just enough money left to pay for an MCC. An FI rating is another 6k, I can't currently afford it, above all with all the debt I have.... I can hardly afford to pay for 1 hour of flying at the weekend....How am I supposed to remain current? Build some more hours? I have a house to pay, a car loan, a normal life, etc... what am I supposed to do....? Sell my house, live under a bridge? Go back to live with mummy and daddy? Give up my job and try to find "second class" flying jobs which pay peanuts?
Do I have to borrow even more money?
I am not moaning, but trying to paint a realistic picture of my situation which I believe might be similar to other people's.

So A320rider is not that wrong. People considering this career should think long and hard about the consequences, above all if they have to borrow money to do the training. It is very, very easy to borrow money, not that easy to pay it back. Think about it!
Aviation is a very competitive industry and it is very expensive to become "experienced" enough to be in a position to get an airline job (small operator, of course ;) ), unless you are exceptionnally lucky or know the chief pilot.
Don't throw boiling oil on me please ;)
FNav :)

A320rider

5th Mar 2006, 07:15

fancynavigator,
I have more experience and more hours than you .
Airlines(turboprop operators) are turning down my applications .They worry I could leave them after my 500h on their multicrew aircraft.
Even if you have 1000-2000 hours, it does not mean you will get more chance.I have over 2000h(small a/c only) and they ask me if I have eavy jet experience.
the best is to get your head out of debts and problems,keep looking and apply,keep current with your IR.
At least you have a house, and somewhere to live with a normal life(friends, girlfriends, TV, a normal PAID job)...

mad_jock

5th Mar 2006, 10:43

Fancy, get your MCC done ASAP your CV's will be going straight in the bucket without that one.

And for staying current my personal opinion is that 1 hour a month in a twin with an instructor shooting single engine approaches under the screens is far more productive than 4 hours in a SEP.

Unfortunatly I think A320 rider has fallen into the buy your type rating trap.

If you buy a jet rating you have cut out the majority of low hour jobs going. Turboprop operators have been stung way to many times by people leaving. The relative difference in earnings to a jet FO means that any reasonable bond is payed off by the difference in salary in less than a year. So they won't touch you. Currently there is alot of movement from the TP fleets into the jet fleets.

Turboprops are by far the market which is expanding the most within europe. Someone said at work that the sales of TP's in europe are level pegging with short range jets and before long will out strip them. The fuel burns in tp's when compare to jets are extremly low up to the 450NM range and the difference in the burn if you don't get your required level is measured in 10's of pounds instead of 1000's. As the Fuel price continues to increase the TP's will continue to out strip the economics of the jets on the short range routes. And god forbid they start taxing Jet A round europe there will be an even bigger shift to TP's. And now with the advent of the Q400's and saab 2000 and the like after taking into account the vectoring around the terminal areas the times are virtually the same. The kit up the front of these new TP's is really very good and is as good as, if not better than alot of jets about. The only thing really missing is an auto throttle.

The TP salary may seem poor compared to a Jet FO's but when you off set it against about where you will live and the fact that a LHS is generally in the offing within 3 years. Makes you down the line at 4 years alot more of a potential good catch if you really do want to go jet, than a type rating and sitting on your backside for 4 years unpaid or working as a FI, for that period.

My theory is that if you decide you must get a type rating, a TP's rating such as a ATR 42/72, Q400 or Jetstream 31 do your self more favours than a Airbus or Boeing rating. You might wonder why I say J31 as they seem to be getting phased out. Its very cheap in the grand scope of things including base training its under 10k. Not many jobs about but then again not many low hour pilots have it and it will get you out of the no type rating held stack. You will have shown you can do a type ratings and all the procedures and methods are virtually the same across all TP types.

I don't agree with multi crew type ratings being on the market to individuals to be honest. They should only be available to company sponsored pilots. But I doudt very much that this will change. To much money to be made flogging a PC terminal for 2 weeks and slots in the sim at hurrendous times in the night with TRI's who which if your lucky are semi-retired and are only doing to keep there YAK in the air without the wife bitching. If your unlucky its to keep the rug rats in private school while doing a full time airline job and paying for 2 previous partners plus kids.

Mugi

5th Mar 2006, 11:44

A320rider - one doesn't own a house, one is owned by a house!
Mine costs ~£900 per month in mortgage and bills regardless of whether or not I am working (I'm a freelancer, by the way).

When I finish my training I will have no debt. The house will have seen to that. I'll also not have the £900 pcm millstone hanging round my neck. If I cannot find a job then I will freelance in the meanwhile, and since freelancing is part time I'll put all my other efforts into securing a job.

Even if I never find a job, the only thing I've lost is the house - I can get another house. The one thing I cannot get is another chance to 'try'.

No matter how much doom and gloom goes round here, there are those of us who don't want to live out our days with a 'what if' on our minds.

We will try!
Some of us will succeed.
Some of us will fail.
But ALL of us will know 'what if?'

pakeha-boy

5th Mar 2006, 17:32

A320rider......been flying for 26 yrs,never had a psy test(not that I remember anyway)....first time was last year,when I was applying to carry a gun in the cockpit....go figure that one.....by the way I passed:uhoh: :}

moggiee

6th Mar 2006, 13:33

Sky Wave

6th Mar 2006, 18:40

@skywaves: you are a rich kid, only rich kids reply to my stupid posts!
I wish

I'd go and buy myself a type rating and some line hours if that were the case :mad:

Send Clowns

8th Mar 2006, 12:32

Another friend has just got a job, pays very well for a first job, and sounds like great flying.

A320 Even if you have 1000-2000 hours, it does not mean you will get more chance.I have over 2000h(small a/c only) and they ask me if I have eavy jet experience.More completely incorrect information, and another suggestion that you are restricting yourself.

1000 hours in light aircraft gives people a much better chance, even for jets. My job requires 700 hours. The friend who got the job I mentioned above would have been flying a 737 months ago had he 500 hours - he passed the selection but they had invited him in error, mistaking his hours. Why would a turboprop operator or a light charter company ask about heavy jet hours? I would suggest you make sure you have 40 hours PIC under IFR on twins. If you have the personality to be a pilot (your posts here suggest not, but I don't know you so cannot judge) then you will walk into a single-crew charter job, earning about the same as a junior FO on a turboprop, but with much lower bond of a year or less. With 900 hours or so I had 2 firm offers and one that phoned me up just as I started training for the one I accepted. The job is brilliant!

Mad Jock

Good advice on TRs. I have a friend who flies ATRs, but when he got the speculative type rating he was approached by operators of other turboprops, including Dash 8s and J41s.

A320rider

8th Mar 2006, 15:50

sorry man, but hours don't give you more chance than a guy with 200h.Some companies may have turned down your applications because you have 1000h and lot of "bad habits" , and you don't know it!it is why you fly not for a "real" airline but for a charter operator.

many companies want train "novices"(200hours, 23 years old maximum), because they will stay longer in the company.So if you are a low hours pilots, do not rush to log time and do not open your wallet.Only if you have a real promess for a real job.

but if you want have a little chance to be hired, log time and join eaglejet...and be on a waiting list for years!:yuk:

mad_jock

8th Mar 2006, 19:39

get a grip A320.

What is your problem with flying anything else but a jet for an airline.

It maybe the higher pay result but it is no way the ultimate job for a pilot.

Who cares if you are charter, airline, freight, police, ambulance, corporate be it in islander, saab, dash, ATR, airbus or boeing.

You have a job which you love you get payed for flying.

Its quite insulting that you think that flying anything else but a jet is not real flying. Some of use don't actually want a jet job, we still get a kick out of flying the machine. The fun bit is the departure and the approach, the cruise for me is the crap but important bit in the middle. The only difference between the different jobs and machines is the length of time you have in the middle and the distance travelled and your T & C's.

Your biggest problem is not your hours, your qualifications, the way you trained. It's YOU, your personality, the way you come across in your CV's your inter personal skills and your attitude. Until you get that sorted you will always struggle getting what you think is a proper "flying job"

MJ

Davidils20l

8th Mar 2006, 19:52

I have been flying for a number of years now, building up my experience for that stable dreamed of airline job. I have worked very hard is some far countries to get my time
I have over 2500Hrs TT, over 1300Hrs Multi Engine, but do not have turbo prop time. Now am ready to return to Uk and get that dreamed of job, nobody wants to look at me because i do not have time in turbin aircraft.

The airlines are being unfiar to us all. There are people out there with experience, who have worked hard to get where they are.

I hate to say this, because i do not believe in it, but if a company guaranteed me job, i would pay for my type rating, but they are not even guaranteeing jobs. Just telling us to get our ratings.

But there are people out there getting these jobs, so maybe somebody can tell me if there is any hope?????

CAP509castaway

8th Mar 2006, 19:57

Try Bmiregional, flybe, Eastern airways, Air Southwest, and other turboprop operators.Good Luck:ok: :ok: :ok:

Luke SkyToddler

8th Mar 2006, 20:04

David the UK turboprop market is red hot at the moment, if someone with your kind of hours doesn't have several interviews within a few weeks of applying to all the UK turboprop operators, then something else is wrong.

I'm not sure from your post whether English is your first language (I'm not one of the spelling nazis here on pprune but your post has some pretty obvious grammatical errors in it). If you are posting CVs from a foreign country and your English in your covering letter is not 100% then it can be very difficult to get a response.

Apart from that, if you have no other disqualifying factors - i.e. you have a current JAA IR, no accident or bad-employer-reference history, and obviously you have the right to live and work in the UK, then get your ass back to Britain and start applying my friend, because the job market hasn't been this good for a number of years.

moggiee

8th Mar 2006, 20:38

It maybe the higher pay result but it is no way the ultimate job for a pilot.

Turboprops pay better than the dole (unemployment benefits), too!

Send Clowns

8th Mar 2006, 22:35

A320

You are going now from posting what you know nothing about to straight lying!

No company I have ever heard of has a 23-year-old maximum - even the old BA sponsorship went to 27 for applying before training. You have whinged for months that airlines won't take people inexperienced pilots, now you seem to claim that they will only take inexperienced pilots. Make your mind up. I could name companies that go for either recruitment strategy, but more that like hours than prefer inexperience meaning you are wrong saying hours are not a benefit. How about the many jobs where the AOC requires 400, 700 or 1000 hours? Do they only take low-hour pilots illegally, or are you not bothering with those companies? Are they beneath you?

You fail to address the points I made in my last post. Is that because I am right, that you are too much of a snob to take a proper flying job, and only want to get in a mid-size jet? If that is the case you are in the wrong business and have just wasted thousands. All the decent pilots I know will fly anything for money. You seem to wish for someone to beg you to accept vast sums for flying their 737.

No-one I know was hired having been on a waiting list for years. You wait for years and you are definitely not the sort of person who should be flying. I know 1 person who paid for hours over and above a type rating before his job. I know so many who have jobs, from all sorts of backgrounds. None of them just looked for jet work. Most of them worked hard to get the jobs, all were willing to, unlike you seem to be.

It is incredible that someone as dishonest and miserable as you seem to be expects to get a job. Your licence doesn't entitle you to an automatic job, you have to have personality to make someone want to pay you to fly. We can only assume that you are unemployed because you are the sort of person that no-one wants to fly with or to employ.

boogie-nicey

9th Mar 2006, 08:50

well said Send Clowns, Bravo :)

A320rider

9th Mar 2006, 14:13

like you, not jet experience....not enough turboprop experience, not enough hours multi crew, not enough,....

:mad: them!!!

Luke is living on a paradise island called Great Britain...

Lee@LPL

9th Mar 2006, 14:17

How much did cost to learn your trade?

RVR800

9th Mar 2006, 15:21

http://www.easternairways.com/

A320rider

9th Mar 2006, 17:07

uhuhuhuhuh, 27 years old....wonderfull, so if you are 27 and 1 day, it is bye bye for you!!!
I am so sorry , I told you 23, but now you can join BA ....

send clows, please dont give them fake hope. you know this market sucks and has nothing to do with a snob attitude.what do you try to prove, that is easy??? do you work for a school or are you a manager ? do you want more $ of these wanabee pilots???

you know some pilots who have landed jobs(probably pre 9/11/01), but I know many pilots who have no job at all and are still struggling with debts...
and what about you???

when I say job, I say a job on a 2 pilots aircrafts .I do not consider flight instructor to be a job, I have seen to many FI quitting for a better pay in IT. I still receive many emails of friends who told me they have changed jobs and have quit aviation.they are happy to have paid back their loan.
it is not a question to be right or not right, it is a question that to many students think you just have to pay and have a positive attitude to get a job.(some of them have finished at eaglejet )

if some guys really believe they can land a well paid job after a commercial license and a MCC, let me know how you are going to do that...I love to read pink stories!!!

A320

You are going now from posting what you know nothing about to straight lying!

No company I have ever heard of has a 23-year-old maximum - even the old BA sponsorship went to 27 for applying before training. You have whinged for months that airlines won't take people inexperienced pilots, now you seem to claim that they will only take inexperienced pilots. Make your mind up. I could name companies that go for either recruitment strategy, but more that like hours than prefer inexperience meaning you are wrong saying hours are not a benefit. How about the many jobs where the AOC requires 400, 700 or 1000 hours? Do they only take low-hour pilots illegally, or are you not bothering with those companies? Are they beneath you?

You fail to address the points I made in my last post. Is that because I am right, that you are too much of a snob to take a proper flying job, and only want to get in a mid-size jet? If that is the case you are in the wrong business and have just wasted thousands. All the decent pilots I know will fly anything for money. You seem to wish for someone to beg you to accept vast sums for flying their 737.

No-one I know was hired having been on a waiting list for years. You wait for years and you are definitely not the sort of person who should be flying. I know 1 person who paid for hours over and above a type rating before his job. I know so many who have jobs, from all sorts of backgrounds. None of them just looked for jet work. Most of them worked hard to get the jobs, all were willing to, unlike you seem to be.

It is incredible that someone as dishonest and miserable as you seem to be expects to get a job. Your licence doesn't entitle you to an automatic job, you have to have personality to make someone want to pay you to fly. We can only assume that you are unemployed because you are the sort of person that no-one wants to fly with or to employ.

Andy_R

9th Mar 2006, 18:29

I do not consider flight instructor to be a job,

How to win friends and influence people :hmm:

machlimter99

9th Mar 2006, 19:02

Where does it say that Eastern needs pilots? Whats the point of applying if they are not advertising for people! Unless you guys know better.

mad_jock

9th Mar 2006, 19:48

A320 you still haven't got it have you.

There are lots of us who have got jobs post 9/11. And are now quite happy driving multi crew aircraft. In fact I now have ex PPL students who are starting there first commercial jobs with out paying for thier type rating.

You can rant and moan that there isn't any jobs, but in truth there is. There just isn't one for you using your current methods and/or attitude.

Sir Norman Fry

9th Mar 2006, 19:54

A320, you really do talk a load of bollox! Before I started flying, I used to read PPrune and threads like this and I used to think "how will I ever get a job?" Then somebody said to me, "If you listen to some of those pathetic wan**** who post on PPrune you will never do it and pshyc yourself out of a potentially great career for yourself!"

So I ignored PPrune from then on and went away and did MY thing. And do you know something? Thank god I followed my own advice because I now fly an A320 for major UK airline! And do you know what I did before flying the A320? I flew the B737 for another major airline! (Sorry to those people that may find this arrogant, I don't mean it to be, just proving a point!) As for all this no jobs blah blah bull ****, you are unlucky my friend. You are unlucky because of the type of person you come across as on this website. You make your own luck in this world and nobody will hand you the luxury jet job on a plate!

I scraped ****e off the bottoms of light aircraft, washed them in the freezing cold, worked a 14 hour day at my local flying school which was non-stop and then walked two miles to the train station for an hours train journey home. And what was I paid? Nothing except free flying hours which at the time were priceless to me! All my mates had monetary paid jobs and had a great life compared to me. However, I am now having the last laugh!

A few facts: My dad is not a millionnaire (nor am I), and is not the chief pilot of x airline. I got a job with 250hrs on the B737. Why? Because I was lucky and was in the right place at the right time. I did this off my own back with lots of hard work and effort and committment. I did not spend my days moaning and crying about why BA had not called to offer me a 777 job.

If I walk down to my local pub now, I can guarantee the bar will be full of Pilots. Go and ask one of them if they regret their career choice? Or if they had an easy ride in getting a job flying a jet or any type of aircraft for that matter? I can be sure what they would all say.

You should listen to what send clowns has to say! I know him well as he trained me at flight school. A wise guy with some very valid points. He does not fly jets for an airline, but is he happy with his flying job? You bet he is!

I can only wish you the best of luck :ok:

woof

9th Mar 2006, 19:56

A320 I love reading your posts.

You are right though. There are no jobs for pilots without paying huge sums of money to corrupt flight schools. People are discriminated against and flying is for rich kids. Well said, bravo and we need more people like you to stand up for the persecuted few.

Whoops, I meant to say stop spouting bollox and get a life away from this thread. You are unemployed because you are a kn0b and no other reason.:E

In the time this thread has been subjected to your crap, a mate of mine (low hours) got a job with Easyjet.

Send Clowns

10th Mar 2006, 00:36

Woof

:} :E

A320

I don't work for a school. I did, but extra students never got me more money.That is how I came to know what I was talking about, unlike you, because I saw dozens of students through their groundschool courses and got to know many others. I now know the multitude of jobs they have managed to find, some of them by hard work, some just by patience still others by luck and good contacts. Sir Norman sounds remarkably like one of mine, who is not arrogant just a damned good pilot and of whom I am immensely proud as I helped him and he is now doing what he wants to do after working hard for it.

I am not giving fake hope, but trying to tell the truth, unlike you. when I say job, I say a job on a 2 pilots aircraftsThis just shows your ignorance and snobbery that is obvious however much you deny it. It also shows you haven't read my profile before attacking me - as I fly single-crew. In my first month I have been paid more than most starting turbo-prop FOs, and I have had a much more varied schedule. It is an incredibly rewarding job, which I absolutely love, and challenging flying; I laughed today coming out of Liverpool when some twin-crew driver asked for vectors to his waypoint when his FMS failed, having neither FMS nor PNF to assist me.

If you dismiss single-crew flying then it is quite obvious both why you are not getting a job and why you feel cheated in this. You are not really a pilot, just someone who has been trained to drive aircraft for a living. Sir Norman expressed so well what he did to get a job, and it is clear someone of your attitude would not do so. You can't find work and feel cheated precisely because you seem to have done this for the money and prestige of a jet job, not for the love of flying like Sir Norman did. It has always been easier for those that really love flying to get a job.if some guys really believe they can land a well paid job after a commercial license and a MCC, let me know how you are going to do that...I love to read pink stories!!!I know many who have done so. Have you the statistics to back what you assert?

Show some consideration and don't randomly quote an entire post that appears just above yours!

Davidils20l

10th Mar 2006, 12:08

Well there seems to be mixed feelings with this issue. At least there are those you are shining a little light on our grey cloud.

In response, I am English, just sometimes not very careful about how I present my self when I am a little upset. Believe me; all letters that are sent out are to a 100% standard.

In all honesty, I have only started applying in The UK as my current commitment in the Caribbean is until June. It was in my search of job listings that I noted that without type rating and time on time, or time in a wide bodied aircraft, the search will be a tedious one.

I will keep you guys informed as to the reaction I receive from our potential employers out there, and like the rest of us, will help any way I can

Good luck to you all

Andy_R

10th Mar 2006, 12:22

A320 show your willingness to get a job. Take a cheap flight to Murcia and as you go into the Arrivals Hall there is a poster appealing for any pilots to operate light aircraft for tourist trips. That would be the start you are after, it may not pay a FO's wage but it would be fun, it would get you out of the misery trap you are caught in - and remember "from acorns mighty oaks grow".

Prove you are a real pilot rather than someone who just wants to fly a big shiny jet for the status and supposed glamour.

No I can't apply for the above cos I am still ploughing through the ATPL theory, but I am damn sure I would if I could

potkettleblack

10th Mar 2006, 12:55

Why don't we help our friend A320 (if he really exists) rather than flame him. Come on mate, lets help you on the way to getting that first job. You do want a job don't you? Or do you just want to vent your splean all day long on an internet forum?

Now lets start with you telling us what you have done in the past say 6 months and we can take it from there. Give us lots of details and not general stuff. We want to be able to critique your approach afterall. Why don't you copy and paste part of your CV as well - taking out all the personal stuff or inserting a fake name and address if you want. There you go I reckon there will be loads of ppruners ready and willing to help you on your way to that first job.

strafer

10th Mar 2006, 13:21

A320 is a liar.

He used to post on here as Hulk (amongst many others) and one day after boasting that he had a job flying Embraers, he then asked a question about the Met exam. (Obviously forgot which user he was)

If he ever gets a job flying (would you employ him?) he would still have nothing to offer propectives pilots but trollery and bollards. Never has the big red sentence at the bottom of the screen been more appropriate.

potkettleblack

10th Mar 2006, 13:35

He used to post on here as Hulk (amongst many others) and one day after boasting that he had a job flying Embraers, he then asked a question about the Met exam. (Obviously forgot which user he was)

Strafer that is pure class:ok:

boogie-nicey

10th Mar 2006, 14:04

lets make a320rider the new aviation minister, no better still put him in charge of the JAA!!! :}

757manipulator

10th Mar 2006, 15:29

like you, not jet experience....not enough turboprop experience, not enough hours multi crew, not enough,....
them!!!
Luke is living on a paradise island called Great Britain...
Well guess what 320....at one point all of us didnt have experience, its up to you to go out and get it, if you say its too hard then mayby you should look at another profession :yuk:
David, luke is right, recruitment is running red hot in the UK at the moment..you need to think of a few ways to get yourself to the head of the queue, with your experience I think a personal visit to some of these operators will do the job. But its up to you :ok:

Check Mags On

10th Mar 2006, 15:29

I got my PPL in 2002
I got my CPL in 2003
I got my FI ticket in 2004
I quit my day job and started Instructing in April 2004
I got another new job instructing CPL/IR January 2005
I got a job flying B737NG's in January 2006
I did not moan or bitch
I just got on with it
I am not rich
I did not go intergrated
I did not know anybody in this industry until I started
I do not normally start this many sentences with "I" especailly on a CV :)

A320 the jobs are there you just need to look and stop posting on this site
You haven't got a job because your attitude :mad: , but they do make me laugh.

strafer

10th Mar 2006, 15:41

Well done on the 737 job CMO. Some sound advice there.

m0rt1L

10th Mar 2006, 16:00

basically all these conflicts boil down to if you WORK HARD enough and look hard enough you can do/get anything you want! Go 4 it. :ok:

If you sit around waiting for things to turn up on your doorstep then you aint got a prayer!

A320rider

10th Mar 2006, 16:21

gosh!!!, here we are again at rejecting your frustration on me.
some of you say:"I know a guy who has been hired by xxx".
but I never hear :" I have been hired...."

when browsing this forum, I conclude that 99% of pilots do not find a job, and 1% know someone who got a job.there is simply no job if you don't pay a fortune for a type rating or for eagle jet/ryanair/....

guys, you really make me laugh, at the end, who is short of money with a blue license that everybody reject???stop to dream, get a real job in IT and have a life!

Send Clowns

10th Mar 2006, 16:45

Sir Norman, mad_jock, Check Mags and I have all talked about our own jobs. So since when was "four times" equivalent to "never"? Why do you expect people who have jobs to come back to a forum primarily for the benefit of those looking for their first commercial work? Of course most of those here will be those not yet flying for a living. Perhaps the only job you are less suitable for than being a pilot is being a statistician.

When did you last see someone with a job in IT and a life? (:E Only kidding FFF - you got out in time!)

A320rider

10th Mar 2006, 17:16

gosh!!!, here we are again at rejecting your frustration on me.
some of you say:"I know a guy who has been hired by xxx".
but I never hear :" I have been hired...."

when browsing this forum, I conclude that 99% of pilots do not find a job, and 1% know someone who got a job.there is simply no job if you don't pay a fortune for a type rating or for eagle jet/ryanair/....

and I am not looking at friends here ! I just tell you what I see and I am sorry for all my friends who write me telling me they have not found a job after years of research.

A320rider

10th Mar 2006, 17:22

and where exactly the are recruiting red hot in UK???I want a good laugh!

"2500tt, 1000h on type, do not apply if you do not have these quealifications"
or

"500 euro for the interview, 25000 euro if selected, pay for line training,..."
etc, etc,...

Sorry guys, UK is not pink but grey.Maybe you should change your glasses!!!!:cool:

some of you on this forum, give you the fake impression that there is a pilot shortage,and companies are looking for pilots.
it is not true, airline are NOT looking for pilots.They just have to wait, and ask for money!they are playing a little game with you... Please, apply and see by yourself...

@davidils

I am sorry for you, but this is true.I receive many emails from friends with 1000h,2000h and over who do not find any job. Europe&UK.and all are fully qualified and very professional.we are too many pilots in this world.

757manipulator

10th Mar 2006, 17:27

320

so all you've looked at is Ryanair:hmm:

Yes the Uk is grey, but so what, its still red hot at the moment:ok:

fmgc

10th Mar 2006, 18:18

320, the job market in the Uk doesn't get any better!

The turbo prop guys are haemorrhaging pilots at the moment and the jet operators are losing quite a few to VS & BA.

David, we have all been there, try not to get into the "life isn't fair" rut as it will ensure that you will never get a job, most have us have been there and endured the same.

mad_jock

10th Mar 2006, 18:38

A320 you don't hear of people getting jobs on wannabies.

They are out of here. Usually you can only spot someone has got a job because they stop posting questions in the wannabie forums. About 6 months later they reappear in the professional forums asking questions on aircraft types and procedures.

I don't know what you or your friends have going against you. Maybe its nationality, but I have met plenty of european low hour pilots on thier first job in the UK. I will admit nearly all of them trained under the British exam system. You have all the european stereo types going against you. Your own aviation industry isn't as boyant as the UK one or its rife with backroom politics who gets a job. Who can blame UK operators for prefering home grown instead of a unknown personality from abroad. The kiwi's and aussies have a reputation as hard working and playing pilots. They have have just as much chance of getting a job as the UK pilots, some companys they have a slight advantage.

It might be bad news for low hour pilots where you are but in the UK for locals it really isn't bad at all for those that work to succeed.

MJ

karimi

10th Mar 2006, 21:52

Please fellow pilots, stop criticising A320 Rider.
I would like to congratulate him for his courage and abnegation.
So dear A320, cher ami, I think that I have a job for you wich doesn t require much flight experience, nor Type Rating.
Unfortunately, I think that it is a single Pilot operation but very well paid.
The company is based in the States but might as well have branches in europe.
Good night and Good luck my friend. Wishing you all the best
:cool:
http://members.cox.net/~ronrapp/thunderbird_crash.mpeg

Check Mags On

10th Mar 2006, 22:26

A320 I HAVE BEEN HIRED

You know why: because I got on with it.

Send Clowns

10th Mar 2006, 23:35

A320

Your lies are getting more obvious.

I post something that proves your post is dishonest, and you repeat the same thing. How stupid do you have to be to do that?

moggiee

11th Mar 2006, 21:39

Where does it say that Eastern needs pilots? Whats the point of applying if they are not advertising for people! Unless you guys know better.
http://www.easternairways.com/content/view/52/110/

Send Clowns

12th Mar 2006, 00:18

Whats the point of applying if they are not advertising for people!This is not the right attitude to find a job! Apply everywhere. Most of the people I know have jobs through contacts or just applying to companies unsolicited, very few through adverts. I have had interviews with three companies. None of them was advertising, all had my CV because I found their address and sent them one!

moggiee

12th Mar 2006, 20:20

Why don't we help our friend A320 (if he really exists) rather than flame him.
Maybe because he appears not to want to be helped?

IcePaq

14th Mar 2006, 12:16

Maybe the psych test is to determine which pilots are going to go ape**** when they realize the top heavy executive staff has run off with their retirement.

A320rider

14th Mar 2006, 13:38

in 2020, there will be 8 retired workers for 10 active persons
if airlines decide to give us a job, and stop to make things harder for all of us, included low hours pilots.maybe in this case, the situation will change and when you will be retired later, you will have some money to finish the rest of your life without having to worry at what you will eat tomorrow

if the situation continues on this way("do not apply if you do not have 100000h on type in the last 3 months"), the one having the privilege to have a job, will see his salary to be half cut. is this what you want???or you can opt to be retired at 90years old.( 50% of UK citizen is already dying at work)

everybody must have a chance to work in his profession, this is what we call :"the legality of chances"
(and not the chance to pay 300 euro for some psytests knowing none will be accepted)

strafer

14th Mar 2006, 13:45

Totally shameless isn't he?

Send Clowns

14th Mar 2006, 13:49

More lies from A320!50% of UK citizen is already dying at workIs just untrue, and also contradicts your first statement. if airlines ... stop to make things harder for all of usAnother dishonest comment - most of the airlines are not making it hard. They are just following the commercial imperative. A few take this too far, and I would say that Ryanair really do take the pi55, but you don't have to apply to them, you can make the same choice I did that you will not fly for people who were that unpleasant.everybody must have a chance to work in his professionEveryone doese have a chance. Those that work hard at it, and persist and are willing to do the jobs that don't have the immediate attractions to build expeience, will realise that chance. Those that whinge and only want the glamour will, fortunately, not.

zooloflyer

14th Mar 2006, 19:23

Why is nobody who claims to have found the great jet job mentioning names? Same on the red hot market - if the companies are crying for pilots then why don't I see advertisements in Flight Int'l?

Oh yes, I saw 2 of them; a month ago for Ryanair; which should in fact be in the advertisement section for (payed) education and not the jobs section! Same thing for CTC Wings ATP or whatever it is called...nothing to do with Easyjet - sure somebody will finally become EasyJet pilot. 1 out of 1000 guys who have all payed for the stages 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 etc and finally the big bang qualification MCC.

Times are certainly changing and I really hope that the companies will get the boomerang back in their faces REALLY HARD! It will happen!
No pilot will ever forget the route and the way he got in - I hope it will hurt companies like Ryanair which is anyway full of pilots who are there just for the money or say ad interim...just look at the way how they advertise - just show the money captains £x00000 and F/O £x00000 - what a poor mentality - just like the fish market - pilots = fish in this case ha ha;)

5 RINGS

15th Mar 2006, 09:02

I've always been told by my father that you always get what you deserves.

I struggled like many others, it took me 10 years to set my foot in the door, but finally did it...the last step was to grab a blue licence by converting my ICAO one.

Got my fATPL fresh from the CAA printer last October, got my first interview in December, and signed my first contract last Friday.

I never got in debt for a TR...but followed the "hard way" to build up my logbook.

A320, the best advice I can give you is to move your *** from your PC and do a bit of networking.

Best of luck mate

fmgc

15th Mar 2006, 09:11

I don't know whether one should laugh or cry at 320's comments.

I suppose actually that one should feel sympathy for him because with an attitude and intellect like his he will never get a decent job!

strafer

15th Mar 2006, 09:16

Zooloflyer - why slag off Ryanair when last week you asked this about their recruitment processAnyone any idea how long it takes from applying online (@ CAE or SAS) untill you get an invitation for the interview - HR & technical?
I'll tell you why - because you are another of A320's aliases. You can have as many user names as you like, but your syntax is unmistakable my man.

:p

PS Saying 'A320 you ROCK' also gives it away.

Send Clowns

15th Mar 2006, 11:12

Zooloflyer is also lying. I mentioned at least 10 companies the other day that friends of mine are working for, having got jobs over the last year or so with no multi-crew or turbine hours. I can list them again, if he likes:

Air Southwest
Beauport
BA Connect (was Citiexpress)
Blue Island (was Rockhopper)
BMI Baby
Club 328
Eastern Airways
EasyJet
EuroManx
European Aviation
FlyBe
Gold
Jet2
Ocean
Ryanair

There are more, but this proves my point. The clear majority (10 or 11) of those companies had my friends training as FOs of jets within 6 months of them joining, one of them in a 747F!

Finally why should an airline advertise in flight international when the type of people it wshes to employ get off their arses and apply anyway? It has always been thus, and perhaps zoo this is why you are having trouble finding a job!

scroggs

15th Mar 2006, 11:23

Zooloflyer and A320Rider are not one and the same. Don't leap to conclusions based on the use of language.

Scroggs

strafer

15th Mar 2006, 11:46

Do you know that Scroggs, or are you basing it purely on different IP addresses?

Looooong haul

15th Mar 2006, 12:06

I hope it will hurt companies like Ryanair which is anyway full of pilots who are there just for the money Most people I meet are in it for the money.. :)

scroggs

15th Mar 2006, 12:42

Do you know that Scroggs, or are you basing it purely on different IP addresses?

A320rider is posting from Switzerland, Zooloflyer from Belgium. I have a record of every IP they have ever used to connect to Pprune. None of them overlap in any way. I am quite confident they are not the same. There are plenty of others I'm not so sure about... (but I can't be bothered to do the detective work!).

Scroggs

zooloflyer

15th Mar 2006, 12:49

Thanks for confirming LoOOOng Haul. That's a very sad thing.

And yes I am very much frustrated that I haven't got any money anymore to enroll in the CTC ATC or Ryanair programs but on the other hand I am also 10 years in the game and am about to set my foot in the door - networking, the only way in...unless you want to put your parents'home at stake! More than right 5 Rings!
Should have done it sooner but it's by being in the business that you meet people who know people etc.
It's just a mystery to me how guys with already €80.000 of debts can even get more from their banks.

"This is a robery..."???:D

Anyway I hope I will get the chance without having to pay for the TR!

Good luck to you all and sorry for having a personal opinion - too many fish out here!!!:{

...and strafer I thought forums were there to get more information. I think I've seen enough on the Ryanair process - thanking the existence of Pprune for those things!:ok: I will give you a PM if I need more research to be done,haha!