Mobile phone use in flight

[teifiboy]

At a time when train operators are utilizing technology to block mobile phone use, it seems inevitable that the aviation industry is going in the opposite direction

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9406948/

[Piltdown Man]

Probably the only reason that train operators are trying to ban mobile phones is that they couldn't work out how to make a few bob out of it (like these arirlines are trying to do). That and other passengers who are getting pissed off with matey boy in the next seat and his loud and uninteresting conversion fouling up an otherwise pleasant train journey.

[MrHorgy]

Interesting that OnAir plan to charge for receiving SMS, there's no way you can block recieving so that'll be a nice money spinner, especially at 35p a time!

Horgy

[FlyUK]

there's no way you can block recieving

Turn your phone off?? :}

[tristar500]

Dont know about you guys, but the last thing I want is to be on a flight, with some idiot chatting away or getting calls. I see it everyday - the minute the aircraft pulls onto stand and it stops, out come the mobile phones.
To be honest Ive never seen anyone use the 'skyphones' installed in the armrest of many airlines. Lets not forget the lovely 'Laptop' too! Would you want someone tapping away all night next to you? I think not. There is a time and a place and its not on a plane! What did we do before all this wonderful technology? Exactly. We conducted business and leasure accordingly and we were no worse off. :*

[SLFguy]

.....Luddites....:rolleyes:

[Xeque]

IMHO
We all know that cell phones have no effect on the on-board navigation system so what is the real reason for the airlines to ban them (and thank God they do)?
Frankly, I believe that to ban cell phones in flight is to lessen the possibility of air rage amongst those unfortunates crammed into their 17 x 32 inch boxes in the money earning section of the aircraft.
I regularly do 12 hour stages BKK to LHR and back again. If I had to suffer the sounds of various cretin's preferred ring tones and inane conversation then I might well become an air rage statistic myself.

[Clarence Oveur]

We all know that cell phones have no effect on the on-board navigation system
We do?...............

[NG708]

We all know that cell phones have no effect on the on-board navigation system
Xeque, the most recent CAA report on this clearly details an investigation that shows conclusively that mobile phones DO cause interference. Tests were carried out onboard, I believe, a 737 and a 747 from various points throughout the cabins and behind a variety of bulkheads.
Now, before the techies jump on me, I can't off the top of my head remember the number, weblink and reference of the report - but should anyone want to know, I'll be happy to find out as I posted it myself on my crewroom wall.
Now once and for all can we get off this line that mobile phones do not affect the aircraft systems. Its getting tired. Its been proved that they do.
Apologies for the rant but I get sick of explaining to idiot passengers as well.
I'm all for judicious use of technology, travel with a laptop and a cellphone as a pilot and a passenger, but have the courtesy to realise they may annoy others if used inconsiderately.

[FlyUK]

We all know that cell phones have no effect on the on-board navigation system

Well I was identing a beacon the other day and instead of dit dah something...I got that annoying tone that you get if you put a mobile next to a radio and make a call. Quick search revealved I had left mobile on in my flight bag. :eek:

Xeque, you have a ppl. Next time you go flying, take your mobile and make call/ send a text. All you will hear on the radio is that annoying mobile tone and nothing else.

[Xeque]

NG708
Pint taken.
Pint = Point - but I could be wrong :)

OK. If they can de-gauze cinemas then why can't they do the same for aircraft?

[CaptW5]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=213451

[rotornut]

Here's a device for taking care of those obnoxious "in your face" cell phone users. Definitely not to be used on aircraft though: http://www.globalgadgetuk.com/Personal.htm

[Globaliser]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=213451And http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06060/662669.stm for a longer report of the results of the study.

[sunshine007]

meny mobiles now have this "use in airplane" option. and often when I tell pax to switch off the phone, they look at me like at idiot and say-"but it is off!"... how am I supposed to know if they have this option or no?
why do they make such a phones? It just messes everything up..

[apaddyinuk]

Air travel is about to get even more stressful for all involved!

[Final 3 Greens]

Sunshine/Apaddy

You should change your handles to Ned Ludd and Ned Ludd II.

[AerocatS2A]

meny mobiles now have this "use in airplane" option. and often when I tell pax to switch off the phone, they look at me like at idiot and say-"but it is off!"... how am I supposed to know if they have this option or no?
why do they make such a phones? It just messes everything up..

Airlines here say the phones must be either off or in "flight mode". Just ask the passenger if the phone is in "flight mode", if they give you a blank look, tell them to turn it off.

[apaddyinuk]

Final3Greens, thanks for yet another productive response!

[Cyrano]

Interesting article (http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/mar06/3069) from IEEE Spectrum magazine in the US: researchers fitted a spectrum analyser into a carry-on bag and (with airline permission) flew around with it. Their conclusion:
More important, the data support a conclusion that continued use of portable RF-emitting devices such as cellphones will, in all likelihood, someday cause an accident by interfering with critical cockpit instruments such as GPS receivers. This much is certain: there exists a greater potential for problems than was previously believed.

[apaddyinuk]

Have BMI started their trials yet does anyone know?

[radeng]

Cyrano,
You beat me to it with that reference! The article is pretty definite that they see problems.
There's another thread on Pprune about A300 rudders and the effects of old age. There are those who question the effects of age on the immunity of aircraft systems, as moisture gets into connectors, cables move and abrade and so on. So a nice new aircraft may well be very different to an ten year old one. A good example of a lack of EMC immunity is the Tornado - a friend who flew tankers told me they have to wind the power down to less than a mobile 'phone.
The European Telecommunication Standards Institute and the Electronic Communications Committee of the European Conference on Posts and Telecommunications are looking at cellular pico cells in aircraft. An interesting problem is that the jammer proposed may well kill off the bottom few channels of DME: Airbus apparently don't see this as a problem, presumably because it's easier to sell 'planes to customers who can make money by selling telephone service on board......
Funnily enough, most of the engineers at these meetings travel enough that the thought of "I'm on the 'plane" occurring really wants them to see the project fail!

[6chimes]

Paddyjunk

No bmi have not started their trials yet, later in the year or early next. It is being done on two 320's so that will make it interesting for regular pax who will try it on other a/c.

Personally I hate the idea of phones used in flight. Most people tend to forget they are talking to someone miles away on a phone and revert to shouting the distance. Whoever you are, you are not that important enough to disturb anyone in earshot with your one way conversation.

6

[fortuna76]

You can always fly with Netjets....on board phone use is free of extra charge :}

But for all those that still think the mobile phone off business is a way of making an extra buck:

- We conducted test with a mobile phone next to the fire detector in a bagage compartment. As soon as we called the phone, the fire detection system came alive and fire warnings were flashing in the cockpit. Procedure for this is an emergency descent and immediate landing, since we had no fire extinguishers there. Not a pleasant way to interrupt your flight I can assure you!

- You know that sound you hear when your phone is close to a stereo set on the speakers. That is the same we here on our communication with Air Traffic Control if somebody uses a phone close by the cockpit. Not pleasant if you try to somebody on the radio.

- Apart from these personnal experiences there are many other facts available today which prove that phones and planes don´t mix. Fact of the matter is we are so addicted to our phones today. It´s almost like the smoker who tries to have a quick drag in the toilet (that´s actually coming from a smoker who can just control himself a bit more). Nowadays I just leave my phone off for the whole workday including the turn-arounds (I do get my sigaret in between though, hehehe), because I just forget to turn them off otherwise and get reminded by that nice noise on the radio. It is a liberating feeling to be unreachable the whole day, you should all try it!

Btw, the reason your phone does not work in flight is because of the speed and altitude. The signal to the ground based stations gets confused. The only usable phone is a satelite phone. Your phone does however start to be usable again when we get stabalizer on final approach close to the ground. That is a bad time to find out about the effects of it on the navigation. Do you want to try it out, I sure as heck don´t! Cheers :ok:

[radeng]

Fortuna,
You can bet your bottom dollar that once they find a way of providing cellular service on board, the airline will want a share of the 'phone charges.
Which is why I'm pretty convinced that Airbus apparently see no problem if the bottom few DME channels can't be used, because the extra income the airline will get by having a cell phone service will make the Airbus more attractive than a Boeing.....
I'm not really cynical......much.

[Pax Vobiscum]

It is a liberating feeling to be unreachable the whole day, you should all try it!
Entirely agree, fortuna76, if your colleagues/friends/family can't cope without speaking to you for 24 hours there's something awry somewhere! However (as I've said on here numerous times before, sorry!) every flight with more than 50 pax will (almost certainly) have at least one active mobile on board, if only by accident. Since we observe few planes falling from the sky, I think we can conclude that the risks are quite small.
To eliminate the risk, you'd have to screen all baggage and travellers for active mobiles, which is not difficult but costly and time consuming. I'm waiting for the first on-board cell to fail and see what happens as umpteen mobiles all try to contact the next nearest base station 35,000 feet below ...

[bauduin_alex]

I've experienced only once a problem on a MD83 during approach. We were close to 10000 when we've start hearing the clicking noise of a cell phone on the radio and at the same time FO's horizon was going nuts and went 45 degres bank 10 degres up totally frozen. Captain's side was normal. After 20 seconds we've made a PAX announcement and told that our instrumentation was disturbed by a cell phone and that all cells should remain off. The clicking noise of the cell phone in the radio stopped a couple of seconds later and FO's instrument resumed normal operation.

[radeng]

There seems to me (in my professional capacity as a radio engineer) that there are far too many reports where there is at least an apparent connection between mobile 'phone use and instrumentation/communication problems for the matter to be discounted.
Arguably, aircraft systems should be more immune than they apparently are, but until such time as it can be shown that using lots of 'phones on board doesn't cause difficulties, I, for one, want them all OFF!

[Pax Vobiscum]

radeng, I don't know if your radio engineering covers mobile phones but, if so, can you (or any other visiting expert) tell me what will happen when we have on-board pico-cells and the cell suffers a breakdown? AFAIK there's no mechanism to disable the automatic function whereby all the mobiles on board will systematically boost their signal in an effort to contact another base station (35000 feet below). What is that likely to do to the instruments?!

[Globaliser]

I'd also be interested in this question. From first principles, I'd be comforted by the knowledge that an on-board picocell would be made to fail-safe, so that even if the main functions failed, there would still be a backup that ensured that all the onboard phones remained captured to the picocell and that they didn't suddenly pump up to maximum power.

[Crowe]

[QUOTE=Xeque]IMHO

Frankly, I believe that to ban cell phones in flight is to lessen the possibility of air rage amongst those unfortunates crammed into their 17 x 32 inch boxes in the money earning section of the aircraft.
QUOTE]

Think you'll find those in the money earning sections have a bit more room - full service carriers make their money up front, not in the cheap seats...

[radeng]

Currently, the plan appears to be have a 'jammer' that prevents the cellphone receiving a base station other than the pico cell. Some of us question how a jammer is going to jam the top 900MHz GSM channel and not the adjacent DME channel, but we do know Airbus don't think it a problem, although the German authorities are questioning all this.
As far as failure mode of the pico cell and the results are concerned, I don't believe that has been considered. This is very much an area where the 'telecom' people are only concerning themselves with the technicalities of the mobile 'phone communications, and are relying on the aircraft people such as ICAO, the aircraft manufacturers and so on to come up with the necessary immunity requirements and so forth to protect the aircraft systems.
I read somewhere a suggestion that airlines are looking to charge extra for aisle and window seats - maybe they'll be able to charge extra for having seats with no mobile phone service around them!