FJ v Helicopter

[Gaz ED]

Discussion in Work...What is the most effective way for a FJ to tackle both support and attack helicopters? Obviously without giving too much away..:confused:

[The Nr Fairy]

Put a jet jockey in the RHS and let him hover it for up to 30 seconds !

[Northern Circuit]

fly underneath em and eject the nav.

[MobiusTrip]

NC,

You must have the old Tac Manual - procedure now is to fly OVER the helo inverted and eject the nav (this covers the lower altitude cases).

MT

[VitaminGee]

Judging by the small numbers of SH/AH brought down by FJ, you are probably better off getting them on the ground with an FGB, or, in the case of AH, with a rifle!:E

[ORAC]

IIRC the USAF combat proven technique is a 1000lb LGB. The only official F15E air-to-air kill as far as I am aware. :cool:

[airborne_artist]

The Typhoon could use its cannon, I suppose :E :E

[oldbeefer]

Hunt in pairs. While heli avoiding one the other takes it out!

[diginagain]

Gaz ED, from the point of view of the evading helicopter, it's difficult to see how a fast-mover is going to visually acquire, track and engage a slow, but moving target. One evasive manouevre is to run at max chat towards the attacking aircraft, staying low down so he has to continually lower his nose to keep sight of you. This would hopefully result in his CFIT behind you.

Slow jet (A10) or prop (Pucara) OTH........
Hunt and engage as pair, as was demonstrated against a couple of Scouts during Op Corporate.

[ORAC]

Done exercises against A10 and AH with pairs of fighters. AH with chain gun and Stinger, both operating in pairs. Fighters spent as much pulling high G to get out of the sight line of the wingman as they did trying to get into a firing position on the target. Also rarely managed it as the target was more manoeuvrable and close to the ground.

Best advise? If you get a cheap shot, gun/IR/radar against one that hasn´t seen you, it´s worth a shot. If he sees you and starting turning, leave it for another day. You´re going down to fight in his sandbox and there´s too much chance of being hit by something else less small arms or manpad to make it worthwhile.

Anyway, how can you tell zoomy hand combat stories about a fight with a chopper. No street cred whatsoever, particularly if you didn´t get a kill.... :cool:

[Gaz ED]

Some quality responses there!:}

Surely a big fat wobbly Chinook couldn't get out of the way that quick! ;)

[chinook<NL>]

Some quality responses there!:}
Surely a big fat wobbly Chinook couldn't get out of the way that quick! ;)
You sure??? a chinook is quite fast and can turn rather quick

[Nath]

Last I heard our Typhoons didn't have cannons... isn't that still the case?

[Gaz ED]

What does this symbol mean?;) :confused:

[diginagain]

Back when we had Lynx/TOW, one of my Flight Commanders did advocate lobbing a TOW in the general direction of the incoming FJ, his theory being that anyone seeing a humungous cloud of smoke emanating from his intended target might have been dissuaded from pursuing the engagement. The fact that he was on attachment from an allied army with far more missiles than us may have some bearing on his philosophy.

We'd have much rather bugged out and kept evading until FJ mate either got bored or ran out of fuel. Hiding in fire-breaks in forestry doesn't always work against A10s - they just about fit between the trees.

[airborne_artist]

Last I heard our Typhoons didn't have cannons... isn't that still the case?

If you were a true anorak you'd know that HMG decided to do away with the cannon, then discovered that the cannon fit was critical to the weight/balance set up, and so UK Typhoons now have the cannon, but the RAF does not train on them, nor stock the ammunition, or so I understand.

Hence my ironic post - I just can't see the point of having a weapon and not be ing able to use it, but maybe that's because in my days in green I never carried anything I didn't really need:ok:

[batfink2]

Back when we had Lynx/TOW, one of my Flight Commanders did advocate lobbing a TOW in the general direction of the incoming FJ, his theory being that anyone seeing a humungous cloud of smoke emanating from his intended target might have been dissuaded from pursuing the engagement. The fact that he was on attachment from an allied army with far more missiles than us may have some bearing on his philosophy.
I always thought that story was an urban myth! :\

[diginagain]

All too true, but if you weren't aware that the tube heading your way ran out of puff at a little over three-and-a-half km, it could put you off your aim.

[BEagle]

M1.1 min sep pass over the top and let the power of Mach do your bidding!

[threepointonefour]

Gaz ED, from the point of view of the evading helicopter, it's difficult to see how a fast-mover is going to visually acquire, track and engage a slow, but moving target. One evasive manouevre is to run at max chat towards the attacking aircraft, staying low down so he has to continually lower his nose to keep sight of you.

This is often weather dependent. Did a number of techniques in Bos and FI - best plan is to sit high above and drop the nose to loose off a 9L or Asraam from 6k'. Next best is to strafe using the same profile. Radar missiles require a bit more work to be successful, due to the way they acquire the target.

If the weather is bad, then the old 'racetrack' technique will always provide one FJ visual with said helo but you run the risk of collecting a bunch of lead from the side door of the target or from the nose cannon of an AH :\

Visually acquiring helos is tricky, but actually not prohibitively difficult. Radars work too - they don't all just look at the vector of the target and some modes can take into account the rotor blades travelling at a great range of speeds from the centre to the tip ....

ps. Max chat in most helos is prob somewhere around 150kts .. that means you move 2.5nm per min. Given the fact that most FJ intercepts take place at 20nm/min, a helos travel is hardly unpredictable. And they tend to stick to valleys too.

pps. Despite all the above, they're not the easiest of targets to engage successfully, but it is a matter of coordination and discipline. And occasionally some godlike radar work.

[Tourist]

Visually acquiring Lynx/Gazelle can be extremely tricky if they know what they are doing over anything other than flat terrain, and sometimes even then.Even if you are in Tac Form with them.
And hitting Gazelle with anything heat seeking is unlikely.
One of the Gazelles in the FI escaped by the expedient of landing and running away from the helicopter, which the Pucara failed to hit on strafeing runs!

I always thought that bombing us would be the easiest.
How close to us do you FJ guys have to be to knock us over if you do a supersonic pass?
The reason I ask is that we might be at 2ft

[HEDP]

Discussion in work...What is the most effective way for an AH to tackle both Fighters and CAS? :E

Without giving too much away..

[Mmmmnice]

Without giving too much away - ha ha. If it's worth doing, or effective, it's probably giving something away to someone. How about boring them to death with more of the same?

[Fg Off Max Stout]

Surely a big fat wobbly Chinook couldn't get out of the way that quick!

You'd be surprised how well a Chinook can turn. When you have the lever in your armpit, maxi chat on the ASI and you're pulling the 'wings' off in the turn at Flight Level Zero, the mighty wokka moves quite well and can look after itself against the average FJ threat. Bear in mind that a 2g turn at rotary speeds is, I think, equivalent to a 32g turn at FJ speeds, so the RW will always out turn the FJ. The rest is tactics manual stuff, so enough already.

A camoflaged helo at low level can be extremely difficult to visually acquire (I have always had to talk the jet jockey onto my position when playing Fighter Affil). The rotary can also play dirty by going ultra low and hiding or by trying to encourage the jet to stoof into the ground. If all this fails to work, a Chinny with a triple fit of 'lead laser' would probably bring tears to the eyes of many aggressors. Point the solid beam of glowing lead in their direction and watch them bug out and run for their hotel bar 500 miles behind the FLOT.

[threepointonefour]

You'd be surprised how well a Chinook can turn.

No I wouldn't ... I saw last years display !!


But what you all miss, is that all this turning does s*d all for you if the fighter is looking down on you from 6-8-10k'. And I recall flying each mission in Bos with gyro-stabilised binos for the purpose of helo spotting ...

If you can pitch ND from 12k and F2 then you barely need go near the helo - and he can turn through all the circles he wants down there but he isn't actually moving very far at all.

Best bet for the helo is to land and have a cup of tea. I don't recall my ROE allowing me to engage tea-drinking helo crews !!!

[sarmonkey]

Chinooks can indeed turn like a b'stard, which is just as well as they stand out like a bulldog's compared to a single rotor jellyflopter. Having talked to a few jet mates, if you can get a squirt of lead (of any form, but given the choice, I'll have the chinny's lead laser anytime) in his rough direction it will be enough to make him think twice. Imagine the banter if you get shot down by a helicopter....

[Two's in]

No need to shoot them down, surely, just do 3 Orbits back at the IP and by then all the RW pilots will have PVR'd.

[eagle 86]

During the '82 South Atlantic Games an RN Lynx on picket at altitude and well away from the Fleet was attacked by a couple of Argie Miracles - apparently he knew he was under attack because of the cracking sound of the cannon shells going by - he rolled the Lynx on its back and dove for the deck - he credited his escape on the manoeuvrability of the helo and the fact that the Argie pilots thought that it was probably all too easy and did not consider a co-ordinated pairs attack.
I was involved in some semi-official 1 Huey v 2 Macchi years ago and even that venerable old machine could generally hold its own.
If a modern helo knows you are about he will more than likely be able to well and truly out manoeuvre you and the next thing you know - "bingo".
GAGS
E86

[Kim Il Jong]

OK, Time for a dose of reality,

The key for helo mates is to fly at night in ****e weather. The ROE alone will, prevent getting fragged. Most realistic opposition in any case have v poor ability in this situation. Can't really imagine the Iranian airforce going up against allied forces at night.

For our FJ mates, what can be done against THEIR helos at night under stict visident rules??

I wouldn't worry about that case either, the capability of most realistic adversaries at night is just too poor to worry about. (At the moment)

[petitfromage]

In my experience it has always been near impossible for a FJ pilot to correctly V.ID a helo.

And even if you can get the 'type'....chances of being 100% sure its enemy is very slim indeed.

The "good-guys" in NATO operate Russian helos too.

Whilst the USAF did get a kill on a Mil-8 with a LGB in GW1, they also V.ID'd a pair of US Army Blackhawks as Russian Hinds and shot them down in Afganistan (circa 1990).

Its hard to imagine a situation where FJ assets would be used (read 'wasted') on air-to-air helo ops.

That only leaves the targets of opportunity.
a. an FJ heading in to his/her target isnt going to stop for tea with a helo
b. an FJ returning from a mission may have a crack (one pass) but, likewise, isnt going to stop and 'play'. ?One pass, good V.ID.....and a kill......?

Im not saying it wont ever happen but its very unlikely indeed.

All the above said....in ones hyperthetical world.... 1 v 1 the helo will live. 2 v 1, the helo should die.

Question: Would 5 helos make you an ace or just get you some gentle ribbing!!

[diginagain]

In the event an FJ tried to bounce a mixed Gazelle/Lynx fireteam, I'd have been happy to sacrifice the floppy with a 9mm round from my trusty Browning. All that melting plastic should be sufficient to satisfy FJ-mate, and provide a smokescreen for our escape, as well as a handy IP for CAS to pick off what few targets we'd left.
:ok:

[Data-Lynx]

In the complex and expensive process of targets, effects, priorities and resources, why would you want to deploy FJ against helos? Where in any theatre does this threat exist? An errant helo ignoring all the rules/IFF/etc is more likely to be a crazy journo than a true threat. Kim is right about ROE and I sure there are others who remember the hassle of ROE and engagement criteria for FJ against Iraqi helicopters breaking the old BOLTON/WARDEN no-fly zones to commit mayhem on their own countrymen.

Any FJ on station is loaded for its primary and secondary tasks, so it's unlikely to get authority to expend ordnance until it is returning, even if it wanted to.

I know of one man who was highly successful in FW v Wessex 5 engagements, once he had been briefed on the route and was vectored onto them. He had a cracking eye for terrain and knew the ridges and pinch points that the helos had to cross. Then he flew head to head with flaps down and used his cannon.

The aircraft? A Sea Fury.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

From 18 Sqn linebook sometime in the 1990s:

"Fighter evasion with the Chinook? Easy - undo your straps and run up and down the cabin".

Seem to recall the SAAF used slow-jets - Impalas - as dedicated anti-heli interceptors over Angola. Very effectively. Wasn't that also one of the dedicated roles for the German AlphaJets?

[Flap62]

Always found getting Aim9 lock on helo surprisingly difficult as all that air swishing about does a good job of diffusing the signature of the engines. If it had to be done (although why we would bother with a FJ when the Iraqis seem to manage with a breech loading rifle is beyond me!) then I'd prefer some sort of area weapon. CBU, or rockets give a reasonable sized pattern and would do the job.

[diginagain]

Very effectively. Wasn't that also one of the dedicated roles for the German AlphaJets?

Believe it was, mainly to counter the Hind/Hip E threat. The Hind operated more as FGA than stationery helicopter, running in with a shallow dive from around 1000' before lobbing free-flight rockets at the target.

[ShyTorque]

Did a fair bit of official and "unofficial" fighter affil over twenty years ago in W. Germany when it was quite routine to find the boys wanting to play. The Alpha jets never got close enough, nor did the Harriers. The Harriers jocks said that IF they were on the way back home with a few rounds to spare they might have a go on an unarmed heli BUT if there was any chance of retaliation with upwards lumps of lead they just wouldn't risk it.

Our biggest risk was probably from small arms. I never liked to fly as number 3 in formation, the AK-47s were cocked and pointing upwards by then - number one flies over at twenty feet "Wassat? Number two flies over "Not ours!" Number three "Gotcha!" The second biggest risk seemed to be our own RAF Regiment Rapier boys. If we didn't fly tactically they claimed kills with pointy rockets despite the fact that we were squawking the correct IFF. The third biggest risk was from the Yanks who seemed to think a Puma was a Hip, even when stood next to it and talking to the crew.... "Say - are you guys playing the ENEMY?" :rolleyes:

[Ian Corrigible]

Recent comment from a 78 sqn SK pilot on the FJ vs. helo question (and the benefit of having a small island in the South Atlantic to practice on):

"We can even practice fighter evasion with the F3s, something we rarely get to do anywhere else, and, yes, we do get away from them sometimes - the 120 kt speed and tight maneuverability of a Chinook can easily outpace an F3, which needs two counties to turn in..."

(Defense Helicopter, Feb/Mar 2006)

I/C

[dakotaman]

In 1982 a chap was happy-slapped by some low-level A4s down south whilst scooting along in an unladen SK4 - despite having GPMGs on both sides of the cab the crewies were unable to return fire as the SK4 did a swift pirouette into dead ground to get away. These A4s (Argentine Navy I believe) had been pasting our Brigade HQ behind Mt Kent. The A4 lead got in a swift burst of cannon fire, one round of which was on target - bloody good shooting especially as he had seconds few to make the shot and he was streaming fuel out his riddled droptanks at the time! If he had had just a wee bit more time the SK4 would have been toast. I believe that not all of those A4s made it home. A member of that same SK4 crew had a near miss at Goose Green, attacked by a rocket-firing Pucara whilst putting down a full USL of 105 ammo at the Cdo RA 105 battery... That Pucara (bravely flown) was taken out by a RM Air Defence troop, so one back for Dick Nunn and crew. Moral of story - fate is the hunter - life is full of surprises!
Earlier posts about FJ looking down then making the kill are spot on. Trials at Boscombe after 1982 with a 'liberated' Pucara against helos showed that a pull-up and re-attack worked a treat most of the time, just like the Sea Fury mentioned earlier. A criminal shame about the Typhoon cannon, still it is reassuring to know that the Apache has one and it works very well indeed...

[Pontius Navigator]

<<If a modern helo knows you are about he will more than likely be able to well and truly out manoeuvre you and the next thing you know - "bingo".>>

Back in the 50s it was the same with the meatbox against a helo. Hare and Hounds of something like that. Best way to catch the rabbit was to treat it as a ground target and just do a GA on it. It moves, it wins, it mves the wrong way it dies. Either way the FJ doesn't hang around.

Why bother? A kills a kill.

[Evalu8ter]

There are few things more pleasant as a RW mate in hearing the cockiness drain out of a FJ convexee during his/her first Helo Famil sortie. Yes, once we've taken a F1 in the face for his "trg value", the air of invincibility soon fades as we start to employ our tactics. It's all very well poncing around at 10-12k (away from those beastly manpads!) then selecting your helo for a M1.1 pass. But you have problems; 1. You won't see me unless I make a mistake (SHars v Pumas 1982), 2. I'm RWR aware. 3. I know and exploit the weaknesses of your radar 4. I'll out-turn you all day, and I'll probably out endure you. 5. I will shoot back. 6. I'll scream for help...! Students of Helo Affil may wish to study the Iran/Iraq war; plenty of FJ v RW (and RW v RW), and not all one-sided. I've "fought" against F3s (very operator dependant), Hawks (good sport), Alfa Jets (nasty to see), F15s (ok, but very predictable), Jaguars (like clubbing a seal), SHars (what a radar!), GR7s (clearly no attacks from below....), Falcon 20s (yes, really), Tucano (oops) & Typhoon. Of all of the above ac, only the latter has made me feel uncomfortable inside the merge-slag it off all you like, it can really turn / accellerate. So, does a jet mate want to bleed his energy, waste a weapon on a low PK shot and linger for our cavalry to arrive, I think not. Mind you, all bets off with ASRAAM.....

[L J R]

Get an Air to Air missile with a bigger yield!. What was that thing that the Voodoo used in the '60s, anyone, anyone?? - was it a Genie??

[threepointonefour]

But you have problems;
Too many to list here, but that's OT !!
2. I'm RWR aware.
Woo hoo. So are all my adversaries.
3. I know and exploit the weaknesses of your radar
I bet you don't.
And whilst you may think you can hide in a valley, you are totally predictable ... it's not rocket science to interpret raw radar cut off and translate the picture onto a map - navs have been trained in this for years ... 4. I'll out-turn you all day, and I'll probably out endure you.
Day VMC: do all the turning you want, I'll sit at 10-12k and watch... and wait for my shot. And I bet none of your crew can see me up at height.
Night: Much much harder for the FJ to VID, but we have goggs too ...
5. I will shoot back.
Up to 1-2nm (10-12k), vertically upwards with 90 deg aob??
I've "fought" against F3s (very operator dependant)
ALL FJ and Rotary and ME are operator dependent. A non-point.
Of all of the above ac, only the latter (Typhoon) has made me feel uncomfortable inside the merge-slag it off all you like, it can really turn / accellerate. So, does a jet mate want to bleed his energy, waste a weapon on a low PK shot and linger for our cavalry to arrive, I think not.
Nope. And I agree that any ht from 20' up to 30k+ puts a FJ in harm's way ... not a comfortable place to be at all.
Mind you, all bets off with ASRAAM.....
Which we have had for 3 yrs ...so I guess that all bets have been off for a while?

[threepointonefour]

I should add that helo-affil is some of the most enjoyable flying I've done as a FJ bloke ... great fun

[SARREMF]

Chaps, great reading but ..... are you not gettig slightly close to BEADWINDOW!
Lights touch paper. Stands back ...... evade go.
I did like the undo straps and run up and down the cabin!
F3 vs Sea King fighter affil mid 90's. 40 mins in, still no F3's - they are airborne and in the correct hemisphere but alas on the wrong island.
Debrief and rebrief for another go on next shift. Quote from their Boss. Anychance you could do it over Lafona? [ that gives the location away - for those that haven't been, Lafona (not sure on spelling), is the flatest most depressing area of the the Falklands, if we did it there [fighter affil], they would be able to see us from the runway even if we were 30 miles away! We politely refused and ran off to the hills. 20 mins in , radio call to F3's, were over here! Left a bit, thats it your looking at us!

Didn't go down well!

[Brit55]

Which we have had for 3 yrs ...so I guess that all bets have been off for a while?

I think the F3s version of how to use ASRAAM leaves plenty of hope for the RW ME and mud movers yet!

Typhoon and ASRAAM on the other hand...

[Evalu8ter]

3.14,
Fights On! Joking aside, I totally agree with your last post, RW/FJ affil can be some of the best flying we get on our side-a 2v2 is an excellent tool for judging the capacity of the people you fly with! We do have to be careful about the Beadwindow issue, which is why I've tried to keep my answers vague(ish..) but I would just like to say that we train for a "Red" threat so we don't derive trg benefit for our crews if you fight "blue" and stay high lobbing AMRAAM/ASRAAM at us, but most affil sorties end up in horse-trading with you guys "dumbing down" some serials for our trg. You're also right-all fights are operator dependant, I'll take a timed out F2 for that no-brainer comment. Bottom line is that we don't teach our crews to fight the F3 per se, it's just a tool to get them thinking about the problems, and we do exploit the limitations of your jet as we would any adversary's.

[The Rocket]

That would be Lafonia.

Home of the worlds most southerly suspension bridge:8

Also the home of .99M, 50' beat ups:E

[HEDP]

Any FJ mates fancy some FJ v Helo down in the East Anglia area please PM

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi all
Was it not the case that Israeli Mirages or A-4s destroyed an assault force of Egyptian or Syrian Mi-8s, carrying commandos, over open desert, in one of their many wars.I recall reading that a lot of the Mi-8s either flew into the ground trying to evade or were blown down by the wake of the jets and that few were lost to actual cannon strikes, or were strafed after the crews had landed and bugged out.
regards
TDD:)

[US Herk]

Whilst the USAF did get a kill on a Mil-8 with a LGB in GW1, they also V.ID'd a pair of US Army Blackhawks as Russian Hinds and shot them down in Afganistan (circa 1990).


I think you're referring to N.Iraq in '94.

Not to defend the F15 guys, but those Blackhawks were fitted with the EISS external stores & tanks that have anhedral pylons AND were painted white instead of the typical camo-green...

[Data-Lynx]

The blue-on-blue engagement on 14 Apr 94 that US Herk refered to is also covered as a Responsibility and Accountability case study (http://www.usna.edu/OfficerDevelopment/Capstone/Readings/casestudy1.htm) for students at Annapolis.
The F-15 pilots repositioned their aircraft five to ten miles behind the helicopters for firing passes and the flight lead notified the AWACS TAOR controller that the fighters were “Engaged.” At approximately 0730Z, the lead F-15 pilot fired an AIM-120 AMRAAM missile at the trail helicopter from a range of approximately four nautical miles. The F-15 wingman then fired an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile at the lead helicopter from an approximate range of 1.5 nautical miles. Both Black Hawk helicopters were destroyed. All 26 people on board were killed. The F-15 pilots each made two visual reconnaissance passes over the crash sites, then continued their assigned mission.
The case study notes a total of 130 documented failures occurred causing this incident.

[Evalu8ter]

One of the Pumas engaged by the SHars near Shag Cove crashed during evasion, it was later discovered to be overloaded with mortar rounds, IIRC the other 2 Pumas & A109 landed on and were promptly shot up. During GW1 a Hip was shot down by repeated gun attacks from a section of A10s (now that's just not nice), F15s used an LGB on a Hind as the kinetic range of the LGB outranged the Sidewinder. Of interest, both these kills were as a result of AWACS vectoring. During the Iran/Iraq war some particularly unsporting kills occurred, including Pheonix v Super Frelon and even Maverick v Super Frelon (it was sat on an oil platform at the time). Moral of the story, don't fly a Super Frelon! The Iranians claimed a number of MiG-21s shot down by Sea Cobra cannon fire and the Iraqis claimed, amongst others, an F4 shot down by a Sagger(!) fired by a Hind. When you actually start digging you find out that a lot of this stuff has gone on over the years; it's not just fun to do!!